Guild Wars 2

Here’s the thing, folks – #1 skills are more important in PvE than they are in PvP simply because they’re the only ‘infinite’ skills and your targets tend to be lumbering HP sponges. Even with consistent and smart usage of utility, the #1 skill is still responsible for establishing the ‘rhythm’ for sustained DPS in any engagement that lasts longer than a few of seconds (i.e., most PvE fights).

Anet doesn’t seem to have clued in on that yet, somehow, as can be evidenced by the fact that #1 skills have absurd variance in their general effectiveness. I took a small sampling of DPS comparisons over the span of 8 seconds between a few weapons on base values (the problem largely centers on ranged weapons). Here are the results:

Swd Chain (Warrior Swd) : 4562 DPS (2222 physical DPS)
GS Chain (Warrior GS): 2812 DPS (2812 physical DPS)
Bleed Shot (Warrior Rifle): 3415 DPS (1291 physical DPS)
Hip Shot (Engineer Rifle): 2228 DPS (2228 physical DPS)
Vital Shot (Thief Pistol): 2964 DPS (1306 physical DPS)
Frag Shot (Engi Pistol): 1802 DPS (1047 physical DPS)

Now, granted, condition damage and physical damage are tough to compare in terms of value (condition damage tends fall on extremes of being either totally useless or very, very useful), but that’s still ridiculous. Sword’s autoattack is obscene, and despite having greater range, Bleeding Shot and Hip Shot are stronger than Vital Shot and Fragmentation Shot, ridiculously so in the latter’s case. And no, exploding does not make up for that huge of a difference.

I know that you have to take other factors into account when balancing, but having gaps that big causes problems that you can’t get around. It’s no wonder, for example, that everyone hates on Engi Pistol and talks about how terrible the weapon feels when you try to use it. Because it actually, objectively is due to a very badly tuned autoattack. Mesmer Scepter is another example – the weapon itself sucks simply because the autoattack is far too weak for it to supply a reasonable level of sustained DPS. It doesn’t matter what you do to the other skills short of making them egregiously, game breaking OP – it won’t change. And, frankly, that’s not a good way to balance. #1 skills should be treated separately and balanced relative to one another.

You need to reevaluate this and narrow those gaps some to give all weapons a fighting chance in most content.

It should probably be noted that they’ve intentionally made Engineer main-hand weapons weak.

Anymras.5729:

It should probably be noted that they’ve intentionally made Engineer main-hand weapons weak.

I dunno by his math rifle isnt to bad, and today I was running zerker rifle SD in dungeons and was surprised at how fast we could down bosses. Im sure nades are better, but I just find it odd, cause pistol 1 is extremely weak, where as its other skills on main are pretty dang good, 2 does alot of damage and peirces with the right traits, and 3 is a SOLID skill adding some confusion and a nice blind. Its really just 1 that is weak, its damage is weak, but thats a not problem but the fact that its BLEED is also just plain awful is terrible. I think its duration should double imo. allowing you to maintain 6 bleeds. might be a bit to strong in pvp tho…. Rifle feels solid, and hell p/p or p/s to swap to on kit cds is WONDERFUL cause of the utilies there, but the 1s in p main and p main alone are sooooo bad.

The thing about engineer pistol #1 is that because of aftercast it has a lower fire rate than the tool tip suggests. When actually measured, the fire rate of rifle and pistol is the same. But when comparing tooltips the pistol should be a quarter second faster.

Hidden afterfcasts have been a issue with the game since day one. Hell, initially no skill even had a windup entry in their tooltips. Only channeled skills had a time entry at all. So the first thing people did was to sit down, record skills being fired at mist golems, and basically frame count to document windups and aftercasts.

“And, frankly, that’s not a good way to balance. #1 skills should be treated separately and balanced relative to one another.”

I disagree – I think balancing them has to take into account the weapon’s other skills, pros and cons and its utility.

Harper.4173:

“And, frankly, that’s not a good way to balance. #1 skills should be treated separately and balanced relative to one another.”

I disagree – I think balancing them has to take into account the weapon’s other skills, pros and cons and its utility.

Yeah, I didn’t say they shouldn’t. My point is that gaps that big (where one weapon literally does more than double the damage of another weapon) is something you cannot and should not be attempting to compensate for through other skills.

Autoattacks will always play a disproportionate role in how effective a weapon is in general, especially in PvE, so a weapon with a terrible autoattack will perform terribly in most situations even if the weapon has great cooldown skills. You would, in fact, have to make them game breakingly OP to ‘balance’ the weapon, which isn’t a proper balance.

Well, maybe auto-attacks shouldn’t be doing so much of the heavy lifting?

Vox Hollow.2736:

Well, maybe auto-attacks shouldn’t be doing so much of the heavy lifting?

Eeyup.

This is why Engi and Thief 1s are weaker. Engis can freely switch between their weapon and their kits, and Thief secondaries aren’t choked by CDs, but initiative instead.

Wondering why only these 6 1-skills were calculated rather than all of them.

Sarrs.4831:

Vox Hollow.2736:

Well, maybe auto-attacks shouldn’t be doing so much of the heavy lifting?

Eeyup.

This is why Engi and Thief 1s are weaker. Engis can freely switch between their weapon and their kits, and Thief secondaries aren’t choked by CDs, but initiative instead.

Wondering why only these 6 1-skills were calculated rather than all of them.

Yes. This is exactly the problem. I couldn’t really care less how weak or strong an autoattack is as long as all the autoattacks are comparable to each other and the gameplay is balanced around that.

The issue is that neither of those two conditions is true.

Einlanzer.1627:

Yes. This is exactly the problem. I couldn’t really care less how weak or strong an autoattack is as long as all the autoattacks are comparable to each other and the gameplay is balanced around that.

The issue is that neither of those two conditions is true.

You realise you’re asking for a complete overhaul of the game’s current balance, the deletion of two class mechanics, and the deletion of an entire set of skills, right?

Sarrs.4831:

Einlanzer.1627:

Yes. This is exactly the problem. I couldn’t really care less how weak or strong an autoattack is as long as all the autoattacks are comparable to each other and the gameplay is balanced around that.

The issue is that neither of those two conditions is true.

You realise you’re asking for a complete overhaul of the game’s current balance, the deletion of two class mechanics, and the deletion of an entire set of skills, right?

No, I am not asking for anything of the sort. I’m asking for the balance to be more reasonable. The versatility offered by Engi kits in no way compensates for the fact that Fragmentation Shot does an order of magnitude less damage than it should. The two things aren’t even connected. If they were, then all their kits’ autoattacks would suck too. They don’t.

what, thief’s autoattack isnt even weak – -..idk about pistol because i dont use it, but dagger and sword are not weak, sb is not weak either.

only engi, but why would you even auto attack with engi that’s the real question

i rarely even use my auto attack on my engi, as opposite say on my warrior.

Einlanzer.1627:

, I am not asking for anything of the sort. I’m asking for the balance to be more reasonable. The versatility offered by Engi kits in no way compensates for the fact that Fragmentation Shot does an order of magnitude less damage than it should. The two things aren’t even connected. If they were, then all their kits’ autoattacks would suck too. They don’t.

In practical play? It more than compensates for it. You swap to a kit and use that instead as your core weapon, while switching back to P/X when you need 2/3/4/5. The versatility offered by Engi kits exactly makes up for Fragmentation Shot’s poor damage.

I just plain don’t agree with your theory because it doesn’t match up in practice. If 1-attacks were supposed to be balanced across the board, that’s a decision that’s made far earlier than a year and a half after release. Sorry, I don’t see it.

Simon.3794:

what, thief’s autoattack isnt even weak – -..idk about pistol because i dont use it, but dagger and sword are not weak, sb is not weak either.

Dagger 1, SB 1 and pistol 1 are all pretty weak. If you’re literally just auto-attacking, you’re doing junk damage.

Sword 1 is the exception to the rule, but even then, it doesn’t match up compared to proper use of whatever 3 you might have.

Sarrs.4831:

Einlanzer.1627:

, I am not asking for anything of the sort. I’m asking for the balance to be more reasonable. The versatility offered by Engi kits in no way compensates for the fact that Fragmentation Shot does an order of magnitude less damage than it should. The two things aren’t even connected. If they were, then all their kits’ autoattacks would suck too. They don’t.

In practical play? It more than compensates for it. You swap to a kit and use that instead as your core weapon, while switching back to P/X when you need 2/3/4/5. The versatility offered by Engi kits exactly makes up for Fragmentation Shot’s poor damage.

I just plain don’t agree with your theory because it doesn’t match up in practice. If 1-attacks were supposed to be balanced across the board, that’s a decision that’s made far earlier than a year and a half after release. Sorry, I don’t see it.

Simon.3794:

what, thief’s autoattack isnt even weak – -..idk about pistol because i dont use it, but dagger and sword are not weak, sb is not weak either.

Dagger 1, SB 1 and pistol 1 are all pretty weak. If you’re literally just auto-attacking, you’re doing junk damage.

Sword 1 is the exception to the rule, but even then, it doesn’t match up compared to proper use of whatever 3 you might have.

I feel like I’ve had this exact argument with you before. The reason you swap kits is supposed to be for versatility. You are not supposed to be forced to change kits (or attunements) manically just to try to keep up a reasonable damage pressure.

Again, if Engi Pistol #1 was supposed to be weak because of their class feature, then why is it only their Pistol that’s affected and not their rifle and all of their kit autoattacks too? It flat out doesn’t make sense. Engi Pistol is just badly tuned.

Einlanzer.1627:

I feel like I’ve had this exact argument with you before. The reason you swap kits is supposed to be for versatility. You are not supposed to be forced to change kits (or attunements) manically just to try to keep up a reasonable damage pressure.

I’m happy you brought up attunements, because that’s exactly what I mean. Water Blast is probably the weakest 1 in the game (I’m not gonna bother doing the legwork to find out whether this is actually true), but you’ve got to be pretty crazy to suggest that Water Blast should be buffed because that’s silly. It’s not the point of Water Blast. If you want consistent damage, change to Fire Attunement.

On “switching kits at a manic pace”; fair enough if you don’t like the play, but there are people who do like Engi and Ele piano styles.

Einlanzer.1627:

Again, if Engi Pistol #1 was supposed to be weak because of their class feature, then why is it only their Pistol that’s affected and not their rifle and all of their kit autoattacks too? It flat out doesn’t make sense. Engi Pistol is just badly tuned.

Looking at your analysis, it looks as though Hip Shot isn’t all that much better than Frag Shot. That’s, what, a 15% difference? Sure it’s stronger but I probably wouldn’t say that it’s “incomparable”.

Have you run the numbers on kit autoattacks? In my personal experience, the two kit 1s that are actually good, off the top of my head, are Grenade and Bomb.

Bomb 1 is hugely overbudget because it has two big components; delayed explosion and melee. Abilities with delays are overbudget because they can be avoided. Step out of the effect and you completely avoid the damage. Melee abilities are overbudget compared to ranged attacks because of the above; if you want to do damage, you have to commit to a boss or player’s close-range attacks and aoes.

33% of grenade 1’s power is predicated on a grandmaster trait. Additionally, the grenades have natural spread; if you’re throwing from 1500 range it’s entirely possible that the grenades will naturally spread in such a way that not even one hits, even on a stationary target; this makes it weird to consider it a ranged attack for the sake of balance.

Of the other 1s;
Flame Jet doesn’t even hit half the time, let alone deal damage
Whack/Thwack/Smack; would have to run actual numbers, but they’re never actually used, so take that how you will
Tranquilizer Dart; not really a damage shot
Drop Bandages; ilu medkit
Launch Mortar Shot; ilu mortar

Actually I think that Frag Shot might be undertuned because it’s spending a disproportionate amount of its budget on its crappy AoE. For what it costs, it could at least do an AoE bleed.

Actually, Hip Shot is a bit undertuned also but it’s still substantially better than Frag Shot. It’s not just that it’s about 20% more damage (at greater range no less), it also does 100% physical damage. Not only is physical damage more valuable than condition at a 1:1 ratio, but it’s also max-able, meaning that the Rifle #1 has far greater reach than the Pistol #1 has. Hence, people complain about the Pistol constantly but you hear significantly fewer about the rifle.

I really think they just settled on a badly tuned aftercast for both Pistol skills. Vital Shot is weaker than it should be also. Methinks both of them have an aftercast that is roughly .06 seconds too long, causing them to fire sluggishly for their damage specs and making the sets feel weak.

As an aside, I do also think the damage from Water #1 should be buffed, mainly because its weakness renders Water pretty much unusable when solo, which I just don’t like for both gameplay and thematic reasons. They buffed the heal substantially when they should have buffed the damage instead.

I wouldn’t call 100/150 range “far greater”. Sure it’s nice, but not gamechanging.

Also I don’t think that water will become a DPS attunement until it gets a damage-oriented grandmaster that its damage can be really tied to. If water were to do what it already does, and do solid damage, it’d be too good.