Guild Wars 2

Anet deleted my last post due to snarky remarks, but they said I could repost it, minus said snarky remarks….

So, before this thread gets derailed….

I was not playing my engineer. It does not matter what class I was playing. I was at range, and not under pressure. It was a zerg v zerg moment. I was not at full health, so I will allow for the possibility of 3 stacks of vulnerability.

I had 2600+ armor. It’s not a lot, but it’s far, far from glassy, and every piece of equipment my character was wearing had +toughness.

I have no idea what buffs the thief had. I died so fast, their toon may have not even rendered, and of course I was stomped while they were stealthed.

Okay, and? In the other thread people, including me, explained that to get those numbers you have to run a super glassy build which dies to pretty much anything, especially if you’re talking zerg vs zerg in wvw. What’s your point? That a full glass cannon specced thief can do 10k damage? A zerker warrior, ele or shatter mesmer can do the same thing while having other advantages.

What’s your point? Just showing that a class can do high numbers is not indicative of anything.

Looks like that “fight” lastest a good 2-3 seconds based on how many attacks he got it.. If you didnt defend yourself in that time that really your fault not ANets.

Should we complain about getting hit for 18k from an ele combo? Or 15k from a warrior killshot? Or 12k from an eviscerate? Or 15 stacks of confusion from an engineer? tsk tsk. Your QQ is PooPoo.

I think the almost 2k damage lightning strike proc’d of a random 1k damage autoattack more of a problem than the backstab damage :/

Ezeriel.9574:

Anet deleted my last post due to snarky remarks, but they said I could repost it, minus said snarky remarks….

So, before this thread gets derailed….

I was not playing my engineer. It does not matter what class I was playing. I was at range, and not under pressure. It was a zerg v zerg moment. I was not at full health, so I will allow for the possibility of 3 stacks of vulnerability.

I had 2600+ armor. It’s not a lot, but it’s far, far from glassy, and every piece of equipment my character was wearing had +toughness.

I have no idea what buffs the thief had. I died so fast, their toon may have not even rendered, and of course I was stomped while they were stealthed.

Ok some things to note.

A glass cannon thief cannot..* CANNOT* survive in a zerg full of AoE’s going off at once.
Which means you were hanging out in the back.
That means that you were away from the main zerg if you were not at full health. OR you were in the tail during a zerg v zerg manuever.

Either way, you were in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Secondly. That spec is extremely easy to deal with. You may want to invest in elixer S or tool belt, or get better at your environmental awareness.

Thirdly. Why are you complaining about a spec that people learned to counter last year?

What’s the purpose of this thread? Write a blog if you wish to share things you experience in your life, not in a forum which is meant for constructive discussions, sharing knowledge, helping people or feedback.

Your older thread would still be alive if you brought up something constructive like: “What can I do in order to survive this without overhauling my eqiupment or playstyle too much?”

Where as it would have gotten merged with some other thread if you instead wrote:
“this is unbalanced, because … + additional information to counter possible counter-statements”

Engineer is the class with most tools to roflstomp thieves, if you didn’t see him either your PC, connection or reaction time is bad, or you simply were too busy facerolling.

The best tools engineers have at their disposal against thieves and many other classes/builds are Shield #5, Elixir S, Supply Crate, Tool Kit, Rocket Boots, Slick Shoes, Bomb and Grenade kit.

Shield #5 can fully prevent the D/D thiefs burst, Elixir S can save you from the backstab which will then allow you to regain control + a stealth to reposition yourself which is invaluable, supply crate will control the thief, toolkit has a block, bombkit and grenade kit AoE, slick shoes can fully stunlock a thief since they lack stability, Rocket Boots can create high distance + stealth if combined with smoke bomb.

Ezeriel.9574:

I was not playing my engineer. It does not matter what class I was playing. I was at range, and not under pressure. It was a zerg v zerg moment. I was not at full health, so I will allow for the possibility of 3 stacks of vulnerability.

It does matter what class you are playing, actually, since light armor classes (ele, mes, necro) take more physical damage than heavy armor classes with the same toughness.
Also, the damage can be that high if the thief runs full glass and gets 25 might stacks (signet traits, fire field combos from the zerg, etc.).

And now? If thieves attack upscaled players in light armor they can get backstabs up to 15k. What does this show?

You said you were in the back and at range. So you were in the back with little backup and the thief did what the class is supposed to do – cherrypick a target and burst it down as quickly as possible.
A burst thief can be annoying, but it’s also a one-trick pony.

Sourde Noire.5286:

Ezeriel.9574:

I was not playing my engineer. It does not matter what class I was playing. I was at range, and not under pressure. It was a zerg v zerg moment. I was not at full health, so I will allow for the possibility of 3 stacks of vulnerability.

A burst thief can be annoying, but it’s also a one-trick pony.

what??? one trick pony ?? they can use init to spam skills………..

Here is the problem with the OP. You died and see that as a balance issue because it was fast. You are going to die in WvW just because you die doesn’t mean there is a problem because of how you died.

There are 2 sides to this story the victim and the attacker. Everything in life has multiple sides to a story.

All you are telling us is basically you died fast and so there must be an imbalance. The other side of the story is how fast that thief dies too. Anyone that has played a thief build that puts out that kind of damage is telling you that the thief dies just as fast as you do.

You and that thief can both make a thread saying the same thing “I died to fast” he went all in for that damage you didn’t go all in on defense because 2600 armor isn’t a lot. That kind of thief is a asset and liability because it’s a bunker buster he might not kill a guardian or warrior bunker in 1 shot but it will definitely force them to blow important cooldowns. It’s a liability of it doesn’t know how to play that spec on the edge it is rally bait.

Dunno how often i read this in the forums, but L2P

Cufufalating.8479:

Looks like that “fight” lastest a good 2-3 seconds based on how many attacks he got it.. If you didnt defend yourself in that time that really your fault not ANets.

Possibly more, notice how the dagger chain was reset before Lotus Strike. Also the final stroke was the C&D that put him in the stealth to stomp, that is at least 3 seconds of revealed since the backstab

Only 9.5k? Back in the day, we used to eat 18k backstabs. (And then Bull Rush, Frenzy, and 100b that poor thief).

Git gud.

As much as it pains me to say it, I’d rather have 9.5k backstabs than the brainless, rampant condi bunkers on almost every class we have now.

Agony.3542:

I think the almost 2k damage lightning strike proc’d of a random 1k damage autoattack more of a problem than the backstab damage :/

A lot of players feel that the Fire and Air sigils are very poor design. Unfortunately, you can expect a balance pass in maybe six or seven months.

People will defend losing 10.000 health in an instance with “get more armor, l2p, l2dodge”etcetc. Anything that basicly means YOU need to get more defensive.

And then they complain there are so many Bunkers. Go figure huh… Maybe if absurd burst like this wasnt so common, other people wouldnt feel pressured into super tanky builds.

Also, love how people put the blame on the defender when it comes to power-damage burst. But if this was conditions, ho boy…

Completely agreeing with the OP. Not of those BS numbers in particular, that of the general design ratio of offense vs defense has gone too far toward offensive damage. They pulled back on crit damage only to replace it with runes. Power creep is still quite present and needs to be dealt with. Fights should last more than a few seconds.

Terrahero.9358:

People will defend losing 10.000 health in an instance with “get more armor, l2p, l2dodge”etcetc. Anything that basicly means YOU need to get more defensive.

And then they complain there are so many Bunkers. Go figure huh… Maybe if absurd burst like this wasnt so common, other people wouldnt feel pressured into super tanky builds.

Also, love how people put the blame on the defender when it comes to power-damage burst. But if this was conditions, ho boy…

The op is complaining that his toughness isn’t enough the op thinks 2.6k armor is enough. People go bunker because they can just like people go full burst because they can. It’s fine there are 2 extremes at play here and those in the middle that is fine. People in the middle die fast to burst and can’t kill bunkers. These complaints pop up when people that relate to burst complain about bunkers and vice versa for people that play tank specs.

shimmerless.4560:

Agony.3542:

I think the almost 2k damage lightning strike proc’d of a random 1k damage autoattack more of a problem than the backstab damage :/

A lot of players feel that the Fire and Air sigils are very poor design. Unfortunately, you can expect a balance pass in maybe six or seven months.

Yeah probably… it will take a lot of time until players realise how much this sigil combination can carry even complete crap players.
Missed all your skills? Doesnt matter, still did loads of damage by autoattacking.

oZii.2864:

The op is complaining that his toughness isn’t enough the op thinks 2.6k armor is enough.

It’s the amount of armor you can expect from going full Soldier’s, Knight’s will get you more armor, but with the reduced Vitality you’ll be more vulnerable to burst. The difference between Soldier’s and Knight’s in damage reduction is about …. 12%

I am not defending the OP, but claiming that 2600 armor is not enough, or that it “isn’t a lot”, is absurd.

The Game Slayer.7632:

As much as it pains me to say it, I’d rather have 9.5k backstabs than the brainless, rampant condi bunkers on almost every class we have now.

As a ranger who’s annoyed at only having to play condi bunker in WvW I would be overjoyed to see anything CLOSE to 9k damage in any of my attacks.

a t s e.9614:

I wouldnt take the OP seriously , in his recent posts he said warriors regenrate 800-1000hp per second which is far from the truth.

He either went in wvw naked or got killed by old schhool D/D 6/6x thief with 0 defense.

proof right here ( i dont know how to edit from the other post so I just copy paste)

…but the reality is, a warrior 2-shotting clones as fast as you can make them, while regening 800-1000 health-per-second, doesn’t care if you’re using rampagers or zerker gear, he just knows you’re a free kill.

Proof of what? That I state facts all the time?

384 from signet, 142 from Adrenal health, 85 from mango pie, 200 regen from a healing banner…. 811

….and that’s with zerker gear.

Sourde Noire.5286:

It does matter what class you are playing, actually, since light armor classes (ele, mes, necro) take more physical damage than heavy armor classes with the same toughness.

Where did you come up with that?

Damage done = (Weapon strength) * Power * (skill-specific coefficient) / (target’s Armor)

A warrior with 3000 armor will take as much damage as a necromancer with 3000 armor

frans.8092:

oZii.2864:

The op is complaining that his toughness isn’t enough the op thinks 2.6k armor is enough.

It’s the amount of armor you can expect from going full Soldier’s, Knight’s will get you more armor, but with the reduced Vitality you’ll be more vulnerable to burst. The difference between Soldier’s and Knight’s in damage reduction is about …. 12%

I am not defending the OP, but claiming that 2600 armor is not enough, or that it “isn’t a lot”, is absurd.

We don’t know what gear he was wearing and 2.6k obviously isn’t enough for the op. Like you said burst if he is getting multi-hit then ok but a big attack like backstab is different. Honestly the question is what is enough or what would the OP find as acceptable damage for 2.6k armor. I bet whatever his number is would mean it would tickle 2.9k armor.

oZii.2864:

frans.8092:

oZii.2864:

The op is complaining that his toughness isn’t enough the op thinks 2.6k armor is enough.

It’s the amount of armor you can expect from going full Soldier’s, Knight’s will get you more armor, but with the reduced Vitality you’ll be more vulnerable to burst. The difference between Soldier’s and Knight’s in damage reduction is about …. 12%

I am not defending the OP, but claiming that 2600 armor is not enough, or that it “isn’t a lot”, is absurd.

We don’t know what gear he was wearing and 2.6k obviously isn’t enough for the op.

We know he had 2,6k armor and we know several reactions suggested 2,6k armor is insufficient (in general), which is a … remarkable suggestion when you consider that full Soldiers will get you about 2.6k armor.

… I bet whatever his number is would mean it would tickle 2.9k armor

i wouldn’t be surprised if that number would ‘tickle’ 3.9k armor.

frans.8092:

oZii.2864:

frans.8092:

oZii.2864:

The op is complaining that his toughness isn’t enough the op thinks 2.6k armor is enough.

It’s the amount of armor you can expect from going full Soldier’s, Knight’s will get you more armor, but with the reduced Vitality you’ll be more vulnerable to burst. The difference between Soldier’s and Knight’s in damage reduction is about …. 12%

I am not defending the OP, but claiming that 2600 armor is not enough, or that it “isn’t a lot”, is absurd.

We don’t know what gear he was wearing and 2.6k obviously isn’t enough for the op.

We know he had 2,6k armor and we know several reactions suggested 2,6k armor is insufficient (in general), which is a … remarkable suggestion when you consider that full Soldiers will get you about 2.6k armor.

… I bet whatever his number is would mean it would tickle 2.9k armor

i wouldn’t be surprised if that number would ‘tickle’ 3.9k armor.

I know he was using a engineer but how many points in inventions also if he had stabilized armor he could have reduced the damage by 20% assuming he was basilisk prior since basilisk is a regular stun now.

Ezeriel.9574:

Sourde Noire.5286:

It does matter what class you are playing, actually, since light armor classes (ele, mes, necro) take more physical damage than heavy armor classes with the same toughness.

Where did you come up with that?

Damage done = (Weapon strength) * Power * (skill-specific coefficient) / (target’s Armor)

A warrior with 3000 armor will take as much damage as a necromancer with 3000 armor

He said toughness which is not armor. His statement is completely true since armor is toughness + defense and defense is specific to the armor type. With equal gear, an ascended light armor will have 304 less defense than the same ascended heavy armor set.

Ezeriel.9574:

Anet deleted my last post due to snarky remarks, but they said I could repost it, minus said snarky remarks….

So, before this thread gets derailed….

I was not playing my engineer. It does not matter what class I was playing. I was at range, and not under pressure. It was a zerg v zerg moment. I was not at full health, so I will allow for the possibility of 3 stacks of vulnerability.

I had 2600+ armor. It’s not a lot, but it’s far, far from glassy, and every piece of equipment my character was wearing had +toughness.

I have no idea what buffs the thief had. I died so fast, their toon may have not even rendered, and of course I was stomped while they were stealthed.

Working with the numbers shown and the armor you gave we can make a few statements.

Firstly, the thief was probably running close to 40% in additional damage modifiers. His base CnD is 1957 against you, which would work out to about 3,300 power with 40% damage bonus (let’s say Seaweed salad + First Strikes + Exposed weakness + Dagger training). 3,300 power is obtainable with some might, guard stacks, bloodlust stacks, and power as a main stat.

Secondly, the thief was running close to 2.5 multiplier when doing crit on CnD. The max he could get is about 1000 ferocity, which is actually only a 2.2 multiplier, so it’s possible his crit CnD was a high end roll on his dagger while his non crit was a low end roll on his dagger.

You could massage the numbers in many different ways to get the same answer, but the bottom line is thief was geared very glassy. You can’t make a thief that does that much damage without very high power, lots of damage modifiers, and high crit damage assuming you were 2600 armor.

^^ it was probably a signets of power 6/6/0/0/2 build. That’s the all-in thief build from launch. It’s rare because you die so fast but some people still run it.

Most people that have been playing for a while have seen it, died to it, and killed a thief running it. I don’t think it’s a problem it’s all in, usually only room for just shadowstep or SR everything else is signets.

Yep, probably. I started running that build(6/6/2/0/0 actually) again on my thief after the ferocity patch, when the standard 2/6/6/0/0 d/d build was just not doing enough damage and being generally useless(not tanky enough, not bursty enough). It’s really weak against, well, everything. No condi cleanse, low hp and armor, reliance on CnD for stealth and no extra evades. It’s still fun, mainly because people rarely expect it these days.

I got hit with 12k today! Personal best.

Ezeriel.9574

Proof of what? That I state facts all the time?

384 from signet, 142 from Adrenal health, 85 from mango pie, 200 regen from a healing banner…. 811

….and that’s with zerker gear.

1. To get 384/s from Healing Signet, you’ll need (384 – 362)/0.05 = 440 Healing Power. Full zerker with banner regen gets you 300. So you’re 140 short.
2. To get 142 hp/s from Adrenal Health , you’ll need (140-120)/0.05 = 400 Healing Power. Full zerker with banner regen gets you 300. So you’re 100 short here as well.
3. To get 200 hp/s from Regeneration from Inspiring Battle Standard you’ll need (200-130)/0.125 = 560 Healing Power. Full zerker with banner regen gets you 300. So you’re 260 short.

I think you’re mistaken on what “fact” means.

With zerker gear, your setup would give you:

1. 362 + 300*0.05 = 377 hp/s from Healing Signet.
2. 120 + 300*0.05 = 135 hp/s from Adrenal Health
3. 130 + 300*0.125 = 167.5 hp/s from Regeneration
4. 85 hp/s from Mango Pie
5. A total of 764.5 hp/s

Kincaidia.3192:

Should we complain about getting hit for 18k from an ele combo? Or 15k from a warrior killshot? Or 12k from an eviscerate? Or 15 stacks of confusion from an engineer? tsk tsk. Your QQ is PooPoo.

ele combo can see it easily.

eviscerate has huge tell, and kill shot… just lol.

backstab… enemy invisible and do random dodge and pray for the best.

Q kitten Q

Supreme.4051:

Kincaidia.3192:

Should we complain about getting hit for 18k from an ele combo? Or 15k from a warrior killshot? Or 12k from an eviscerate? Or 15 stacks of confusion from an engineer? tsk tsk. Your QQ is PooPoo.

ele combo can see it easily.

eviscerate has huge tell, and kill shot… just lol.

backstab… enemy invisible and do random dodge and pray for the best.

Q kitten Q

Good thieves would tell you that it is possible to anticipate what you do not see. But they obviously are really pro gammers with super powers.

Olba.5376:

Ezeriel.9574

Proof of what? That I state facts all the time?

384 from signet, 142 from Adrenal health, 85 from mango pie, 200 regen from a healing banner…. 811

….and that’s with zerker gear.

1. To get 384/s from Healing Signet, you’ll need (384 – 362)/0.05 = 440 Healing Power. Full zerker with banner regen gets you 300. So you’re 140 short.
2. To get 142 hp/s from Adrenal Health , you’ll need (140-120)/0.05 = 400 Healing Power. Full zerker with banner regen gets you 300. So you’re 100 short here as well.
3. To get 200 hp/s from Regeneration from Inspiring Battle Standard you’ll need (200-130)/0.125 = 560 Healing Power. Full zerker with banner regen gets you 300. So you’re 260 short.

I think you’re mistaken on what “fact” means.

With zerker gear, your setup would give you:

1. 362 + 300*0.05 = 377 hp/s from Healing Signet.
2. 120 + 300*0.05 = 135 hp/s from Adrenal Health
3. 130 + 300*0.125 = 167.5 hp/s from Regeneration
4. 85 hp/s from Mango Pie
5. A total of 764.5 hp/s

In order to get adrenal healing, you need to spend 3 points in defense, and that’s 150 +healing, but most people will go 4 points for 200 +healing…

..but don’t take my word for it, log into the game, spec for adrenal healing, and banners, drop a banner of tactics… and stick your head back up where it was.

I actually logged onto my warrior and he may have 1 or 2 celestial gems on his trinkets, but I’m pretty sure you’re just a troll so I don’t care to look.

Thats nothing; with >3000 armor I’ve been hit by 8k C&D followed by 12k Backstab… barely a “how do ya do”!

Happens once in a blue moon so I havent been too upset. Must be full glass and stacks, very painful to play im sure because I dont see anything near those numbers very often. Annoying when it does I know.

Ezeriel.9574:

In order to get adrenal healing, you need to spend 3 points in defense, and that’s 150 +healing, but most people will go 4 points for 200 +healing…

..but don’t take my word for it, log into the game, spec for adrenal healing, and banners, drop a banner of tactics… and stick your head back up where it was.

I was accidentally counting 300 healing power. Which you would have noticed if you looked at the numbers. But hey, instead of 377/135/167.5/85 for a total of 764.5 hp/s, 3 points for Adrenal Healing would only get you 369.5/127.5/137.5/85 for a total of 719.5. That is quite far from your claimed 800. Spoiler: Regeneration has base 130 hp/s and scales at 1 hp/s for every 8 healing power.

I actually logged onto my warrior and he may have 1 or 2 celestial gems on his trinkets, but I’m pretty sure you’re just a troll so I don’t care to look.

I’m not a troll, I’m a numbercruncher. And you’re clearly not since you’re pulling numbers from where you put your head.

Kincaidia.3192:

Should we complain about getting hit for 18k from an ele combo? Or 15k from a warrior killshot? Or 12k from an eviscerate? Or 15 stacks of confusion from an engineer? tsk tsk. Your QQ is PooPoo.

how can you compare these things? that Ele combo requires to press 82348762387 buttons. My warrior and my thief require to press 1 button.

Don’t misunderstand, I am perfectly fine having an easy way to collect lootbags, just saying that Elementalist is a world apart in terms of efficiency, therefore it cannot be part of that list.

Grevender.9235:

Kincaidia.3192:

Should we complain about getting hit for 18k from an ele combo? Or 15k from a warrior killshot? Or 12k from an eviscerate? Or 15 stacks of confusion from an engineer? tsk tsk. Your QQ is PooPoo.

how can you compare these things? that Ele combo requires to press 82348762387 buttons. My warrior and my thief require to press 1 button.

Don’t misunderstand, I am perfectly fine having an easy way to collect lootbags, just saying that Elementalist is a world apart in terms of efficiency, therefore it cannot be part of that list.

I think you gotta fix your hotkeys for ele. I only have to press around 14 buttons on mine. :P

In case anyone is curious, if you look closely at the picture you’ll see OP is playing a Ranger in that fight. And I agree with people here, to pull off that kind of damage you become squishy as hell. I just wish this was an option for all professions. By same theory, if I make a zerker ranger and give up all defense I should be able to land 10k attacks right? But sadly a ranger will never see those numbers.

I’ve actually gotten more impressive numbers a long while ago.
Keep in mind, this was before the Ferocity nerf, but also before I had my offensive guard killer stacks.
http://i.imgur.com/adYJM3M.jpg
Assuming full zerk warrior in ascended gear and no points in Defense, he has 2187 armor. Given I could have been running a might signet build, I can get another 20 stacks of might, which for my build, is a 22% increase in damage. Your armor compared to his would be a 0.85x modifier to my damage.

All in all, my build would hit approximately 10000 on you, and a might signet build would hit for approximately 12200.

Given my build is 5/6/0/0/3, and receives all defense from utilities and weapon skills, and the might on signets build doesn’t even have utilities to speak of, that seems like a fair tradeoff.