Guild Wars 2

People keep saying cele Ele\Engi are OP now, and keep pointing a looooot of “issues”, but as much some things may be true and others not, the point is that the entire problem is on the mobility of these classes.

Mobility is OP in ever game (DotA/LoL/other MMOs), and when you give uptime swiftness plus some instant teleport or mobility skills (like jumps or lots of blinks), and some soft and hard spammable cc without any drawback or limitation, you will have a class that will need sooo muuuch more to keep up with when compared to other classes. How can you be effective against someone that have lots of ways to go away from you/be on top of you and ways to always keep this advantage?

Engineers have this concept basically: swiftness uptime, a lot of CC and ways to keep the pressure away when needed, and, yeah, they will be using the infamous Cele amulet that will make everything even more effective. Damage, health, a lot of other good status, and the mobility to let them do as they will.

Ele is almost like this, because they can keep going full offensive and moving everywhere spamming everything, and when you finally get to strip every layer of boons, use all your cooldowns and everything else… well, they will just hit some attunement , and just go away blinking or whatever.

These two classes don’t have any big drawback to compensate everything (literally, everything) they have. They have damage, toughness, boons, good ways to cleanse conditions (PLEASE, don’t say that engies get countered by cons. They get countered by CC and burst damage, as any other class.), and specially the mobility to keep the advantage at every time needed. Things got bad? Run! – Are you winning? Run after this baddie!

Now you get to Mesmers and Thieves, that are considered the most mobile classes in the game. But, hey, they’re really kittening mobile! But they don’t have the access to >>everything<<, they use Zerk amulets, and they’re SOOO SQUISHYYYYYYYY~ (Necros (kinda), Guardians and Warrios are actually balanced, so whatever.)

The point is: when you give everything to a certain class, this certain class will be obviously OP, but when you give mobility too, this class become broken. Whats the point when you try to kill some OP thing, if when you finally get close to kill it, it will get away to come back afterwards and give you more frustration than before?

I know this game isn’t based on 1v1, but Engies and Eles are actually very good to go on a 1v1 point and have an easy time fighting inside it IN ADDITION TO their enormous amount of mobility, or even do 2v2/big fights, and kitten everything up.

~~~~Also, sorry for the bad english. It’s not my main language.~~~

Mesmers as the most mobile class in game?

best joke of the day, seriously….

So nike warrior beat everybody?

inhearth.2038:

Ele is almost like this, because they can keep going full offensive and moving everywhere spamming everything, and when you finally get to strip every layer of boons, use all your cooldowns and everything else… well, they will just hit some attunement , and just go away blinking or whatever.

Best. Statement. Ever. Eles can use everything.
Not that I disagree in particular but this statement beat me to it.

Mesmer has amazing IN-COMBAT mobility – I think that is what the OP is attempting to talk about here

Phase Retreat and Blink alone is more mobility than most professions

Some mesmers are mainly the most mobile in combat[because of teleports and stuff], though can be specially traited to be as mobile, or more, than thieves, but this requires both focus and a fully traited Blink. But this is s specific set up. Most other classes have an easier time gaining mobility, like using weapon or utility leaps or with swiftness or an auto +25% speed trait[such a trait which mesmers do not have].

While I’ll agree the mobility for Elementalists in particular is quite high, why do you think it’s the thing that made them overpowered? Their mobility has always been high and really hasn’t been buffed that much since they changed RtL 1.5 years ago or so.

Elementalists really didn’t start showing up and becoming a problem until after the rune and sigil changes and focusing our attention there makes more sense imo. Cele just made things work because it allowed hybrid builds that could also stack might maintain very high power and condition damage while benefiting from all the defensive stats. I’d still argue that might stacking is the issue over cele though.

Mobility only matters for certain situations.

When the competitive objective of this game pretty much promotes a build to stay put who cares about mobility?

If you push a squishy roamer off point, it’s a victory without a death. Esp if he comes back and trys again and still fails.

Also I think what you mean more is Z Axis OP which any class with a targeted teleport can utilize. cuz wars have the best mobility in game.

inhearth.2038:

(PLEASE, don’t say that engies get countered by cons. They get countered by CC and burst damage, as any other class.),

You are trying too hard to put Engineers on the pedestal. Engineers are very vulnerable to conditions. There I said it. People tend to regard Engineers as a skill spamming class, and this is usually true. Now, consider the confusion condition (you take damage on every skill use). Against an engineer using bombs or nades this condition is incredibly potent. Moreover, kit switching also triggers confusion damage while weapon switching on other classes does not. Sure, an engineer could simply stop spamming these skills, but as you have said Engineer’s CC highly contributes to their “mobility” and without that CC they are significantly more susceptible to damage.

Other conditions of importance are CC conditions (chilled, crippled, & immobilized) and torment. Why? Because Engineers are constantly kiting and actively moving in fights (dat high mobility). This is what makes them so difficult for many people to fight. Impede them from avoiding that physical damage and they are in trouble.
Lastly on the topic of conditions, Engineers usually only have 1 or 2 ways to actively remove a condition(s). Many other classes typically have more or superior ways to remove conditions.

Yes, CC can give anyone trouble when you have no way to handle it (stunbreakers and stability). Thus, this is not unique to Engineers. However, Engineers are typically more susceptible to CC because most builds have either 0 or only 1 stunbreaker and virtually no stability (unless you actually consider mortar and elixir X to be viable, which they are not).

You sound like someone who has very little experience with Engineers.

Junkpile.7439:

So nike warrior beat everybody?

Warrior is in a good spot right now. They are easily counterable and even if they run away, when they come back it’s easy mode to beat them again. Not the same with Engie/Ele, wich give more trouble to kill a second time.

Atherakhia.4086:

Elementalists really didn’t start showing up and becoming a problem until after the rune and sigil changes and focusing our attention there makes more sense imo.

I strongly agree with you.
I wasn’t trying to address the OP issue only based on mobility tho (as much it’s one key factor), I was specifying the use of Cele Amulet (wich I belive is the real issue, more than sigils and runes) amulets that give sooo much for so little, and with the combination of mobility this become even stronger.

I played with D/D ele for about one year before changing to Mes, and I always felt that their mobility/acess to boons/ was too much, but it was ok because the only viable Amulet to play this Spec was Soldier. The spec was based on sustain, and dealing damage over time to your enemy… it wasn’t really a issue because the class didn’t had that insane damage and was almost like a warrior, because well you could still strip their boons while they tried to deal sustained damage to you. Things changed with Cele, and even if you strip their boons you will have a hard time surviving against all that damage.

Daishi.6027:

Mobility only matters for certain situations.

When the competitive objective of this game pretty much promotes a build to stay put who cares about mobility?

If you push a squishy roamer off point, it’s a victory without a death. Esp if he comes back and trys again and still fails.

You don’t need to necessary stay on top of a point to conquest it. You can actually stay out of it and pressure your opponent to get out of it or die. Double Ranged Mesmers are basically like this. But, hey, this game isn’t about only 1vs1s.
The thing is: I learned that in PvP chill/cripple/kitting is what makes the difference, not just staying on a point. Utility > everything else.
When you have uptime vigor/swiftness/con clean/ways to avoid conditions, and ways to reset fights and don’t go on downed state, well… just read everything I wrote again, and think about the problem of having a lot of sustain and a lot of damage.
It’s easy to deal with other classes because they have it balanced, but Ele/Engi have it over the top. While you will have ways to deal with a warrior/thief/mes/guard/necro/ranger, these other two classes will make you need to deal with SO MUCH of everything that things could get out of control just for you, because for them, well, “jack of all trades, master of all”.

ejax.5170:

You sound like someone who has very little experience with Engineers.

I will start saying that in the current meta fewer classes have access to confusion besides Engie. (Mes has it, but it’s damage is laughable and it’s on the bottom of damage source for them).
Torment is the same. In the meta only Necro has access to it actually, and it is on a long cooldown.
Chill will only be available in a good amount for Engie/Ele, and for Terror Necros who use 3# Staff lol.
Cripple is there for almost every class… but… meh.

Now to clarify even more: Engies have a default Healing skill on a 20s cooldown (wich is a pretty low cooldown IMO) That gives a decent amount of heal, and cleanse two cons.
They have two blocks..
Transmute minor trait.
Self-Regulating Defenses wich is a really strong trait.
Can get Elixir S Utility or Elixir Gun which have the Super Elixir skill that cleanses one con and give a Light Field.
2 Dodges and uptime vigor.

Sorry, but as everybody knows Necro is the only and true counter do Engies but… Necros suck specially if they are focused (what is easy to be done) lol. I see a LOT of things that helps Engies survive against cons/CC, and it’s getting really out of date to say the opposite. It’s been 2 years and I didn’t see once someone at the Mes community cry like a baby about cons as much as Engies do >->.

STRanger.5120:

Mesmers as the most mobile class in game?

best joke of the day, seriously….

Please take your comment somewhere else where it is backed by logic.

I guess you’ve never heard of blinking, and portals?

Jelzouki.4128:

STRanger.5120:

Mesmers as the most mobile class in game?

best joke of the day, seriously….

Please take your comment somewhere else where it is backed by logic.

I guess you’ve never heard of blinking, and portals?

Guess you never heard about OOC mobility and IC mobility difference, and if you did, you obviously didn’t read the post which I was reacting to where this is not defined.
Thanks for commenting though, your opinion is highly valued. /sarcasm

To clarify I was not discussing the prevalence of those conditions, but rather that they are very effective versus Engineers. Thus, even if few classes can apply torment, confusion, or chilled the conditions themselves still act as effective counters.

STRanger.5120:

Jelzouki.4128:

STRanger.5120:

Mesmers as the most mobile class in game?

best joke of the day, seriously….

Please take your comment somewhere else where it is backed by logic.

I guess you’ve never heard of blinking, and portals?

Guess you never heard about OOC mobility and IC mobility difference, and if you did, you obviously didn’t read the post which I was reacting to where this is not defined.
Thanks for commenting though, your opinion is highly valued. /sarcasm

Mesmer has really high in fight mobility.
as for off fight 1200 blink can easily travel between points and with portal setup it has the fastest return speed.

but if you want to say open world marathon, it is slow.

never played ele, so no comment on that.
about the engi:
yes, we do lack condition clean.

we have exactly 2 traits that transmute /clean 1 condition every 15 sec or on elixir-use.
this is far less (theorethical) cleansing that other classes could have access to.
and apart from elixir S (60sec cd) and the elixir B proc (90sec cd) engis rarely pick elixirs outside of HGH builds.
then we have automated defense as grandmaster which reduces condi-duration by 50% if we’re below 33% health (rarely used in viabel builds) and leg-mods which reduces movment-impairing condis-duration by 33% (used a bit more often)

for a engi to clear condis, he has to use his heal, which we have 3 options to:
Healing turret: aoe-cleanse 2 condis / 15sec cd (if picked up, therefore one blast less, which is huge considering that half the chain does not stack with healingpower (known bug), if blown up for the blast finisher, 20sec cd)
OR
medkit: 1 condi removal per 15sec (can be dropped and prepared pre-combat, each vial will stay 40sec)
OR
A.E.D: damaging condis get removed / 40sec cd (and is a real niche-option only since it requires a frekking risky play-stile to heal effectively)

then we have elixir C, which transmutes all condis in boons, but is not a stunbreaker and on 40sec cd, and we sacrifice a utility-slot for it (therefore limiting our “spammability” and not even gaining a stunbreaker for it (stability is a rare thing on engi))
we also have Elixir-gun #5 which does clear 1 condi as aoe (but skill #3 only clears allies). Still this one is actually often picked for the heal, clear, stunbreaker and leap in most hybrid or condi-kit-builds.
and finally rocketboots clear movement-impairing condis.

and that’s it.
all other condi-cleans you could think of are comming from runes or sigils that every other class has access to as well.

this is why necros are “generally” (even newbs can oppose a threat) a hardcounter, why condi-thieves – if played right – are an even harder hardcounter and condi-rangers / mesmers / other engis oppose a uphill-battle as well. basically engis counter each other. hard.

Don’t get me wrong, we have a lot of defense, mobility and oh-kitten buttons, and can trigger some oh kitten buttons to get rid of condi-bursts – mostly – still we drop often enough to nothing but sustained condi-applications.

Jelzouki.4128:

STRanger.5120:

Mesmers as the most mobile class in game?

best joke of the day, seriously….

Please take your comment somewhere else where it is backed by logic.

I guess you’ve never heard of blinking, and portals?

thief is a crapton more mobile than mesmer, and so is warrior. are you not counting the leaps or something?

Simon.3794:

STRanger.5120:

Jelzouki.4128:

STRanger.5120:

Mesmers as the most mobile class in game?

best joke of the day, seriously….

Please take your comment somewhere else where it is backed by logic.

I guess you’ve never heard of blinking, and portals?

Guess you never heard about OOC mobility and IC mobility difference, and if you did, you obviously didn’t read the post which I was reacting to where this is not defined.
Thanks for commenting though, your opinion is highly valued. /sarcasm

Mesmer has really high in fight mobility.
as for off fight 1200 blink can easily travel between points and with portal setup it has the fastest return speed.

but if you want to say open world marathon, it is slow.

I just pointed out that the post I was reacting to was comparing mobility (not specified mobility) and also put mesmer in the same “league” with thief, which is really laughable. Thief is much more mobile than mesmer OOC and even IC, because spammable. Blink and portal are good, yes, however those CDs make them not nearly on par with other classes, and the absence of passive 25% speed only makes that issue bigger.

For those that think might stacking is op, it hasn’t changed, at all. Might stacking was a thing before sigil/rune changes, using 2 of each might rune. What did change to make these builds more viable, was the cele amulet. Really, I’d be happy to see this thing go or nerfed so that people can move on find something new to qq about.

It has been made easier to obtain might stacks. Certain classes just need to have a decrease in blast finishers or fire fields. Cele is almost useless on some classes… it’s the stacking not the amulet. Sure people will still complain about Cele engis and eles sustaining too well while dealing damage but they won’t be hitting like mac trucks anymore.

NeXeD.3042:

It has been made easier to obtain might stacks. Certain classes just need to have a decrease in blast finishers or fire fields. Cele is almost useless on some classes… it’s the stacking not the amulet. Sure people will still complain about Cele engis and eles sustaining too well while dealing damage but they won’t be hitting like mac trucks anymore.

Stacking might back then was just as easy as it is now. The stats from the celestial amulet are what has changed, and of course benefit actual hybrid builds more. And the last thing that needs to be nerfed is blasting fire fields. This is a form of actively building might stacks, rather than passively building might stacks every time I swap a kit or land a crit via sigils.

Shaogin.2679:

NeXeD.3042:

It has been made easier to obtain might stacks. Certain classes just need to have a decrease in blast finishers or fire fields. Cele is almost useless on some classes… it’s the stacking not the amulet. Sure people will still complain about Cele engis and eles sustaining too well while dealing damage but they won’t be hitting like mac trucks anymore.

Stacking might back then was just as easy as it is now. The stats from the celestial amulet are what has changed, and of course benefit actual hybrid builds more. And the last thing that needs to be nerfed is blasting fire fields. This is a form of actively building might stacks, rather than passively building might stacks every time I swap a kit or land a crit via sigils.

Celestial stats did change, but it wasn’t what introduced Engis and Eles into the meta… it only solidified it. Rune and Sigil changes is what brought the Elementalist into meta overnight and allowed Engis to move beyond just turret spec.

Nerfing the sigils and runes makes more sense than changing celestial or nerfing mechanics/classes. But in reality it’s probably a case of all 3 probably needing to be toned down if things can be thrown out of whack this easily.

Might becoming a Dual purpose and Stack-able boon is probably what hurts Gw2 the most when it comes to combat imo..

But yes its the sigils and rune changes that have allowed for some pretty fun stuff to happen.

If Might granted a flat bonus and only stacked duration the meta’s across the game would be entirely different but that’s asking for too much.

How about this.. No sigil should be on less than a 9s CD (yes even you Air).

Might related Runes should not supplement with extra stacks of might on top of the extra Power because might is active and Might Durations.

Or how about Might caps out at 5 in sPvP?

Having a bunker build that deals damage by stacking might is in no way a bad thing. It is interesting game play, and encourages more diversity by making boon removal more valuable.

Also, Engi’s have never been “just a turret spec.” Ever. Turret builds are gimmicks that only work against unskilled players. Prior to celestial engi was the still-meta rabid condi engi. Celestial ammy didn’t bring engi into meta, it just made a might-stacking build more viable, as I already stated.

Shaogin.2679:

Having a bunker build that deals damage by stacking might is in no way a bad thing. It is interesting game play, and encourages more diversity by making boon removal more valuable.

Also, Engi’s have never been “just a turret spec.” Ever. Turret builds are gimmicks that only work against unskilled players. Prior to celestial engi was the still-meta rabid condi engi. Celestial ammy didn’t bring engi into meta, it just made a might-stacking build more viable, as I already stated.

The problem with that style of play is that boon removal isn’t properly distributed between the classes. You create unfair matchups if you play a class that can neither stack boons or counter them. If you want to ignore the issues related to might stacking and the like, perhaps the conversation should shift to effective counterplay to boons in general?

Atherakhia.4086:

Shaogin.2679:

Having a bunker build that deals damage by stacking might is in no way a bad thing. It is interesting game play, and encourages more diversity by making boon removal more valuable.

Also, Engi’s have never been “just a turret spec.” Ever. Turret builds are gimmicks that only work against unskilled players. Prior to celestial engi was the still-meta rabid condi engi. Celestial ammy didn’t bring engi into meta, it just made a might-stacking build more viable, as I already stated.

The problem with that style of play is that boon removal isn’t properly distributed between the classes. You create unfair matchups if you play a class that can neither stack boons or counter them. If you want to ignore the issues related to might stacking and the like, perhaps the conversation should shift to effective counterplay to boons in general?

^

Celest rifle or ps engi with TK, GK and Elixir S has good offense but has one stun break on 60sec cd and almost no condition removal. Its survivability is not on same level as ele and without fire fields its doesn’t stack might like an ele either.

It also has counters Necro, sf Ele, and freaking sb d/x condition ranger are good against them aswell. Also I am starting to see condition mesmers doing quite well against them since the buff to torment on shatter.

Jelzouki.4128:

STRanger.5120:

Mesmers as the most mobile class in game?

best joke of the day, seriously….

Please take your comment somewhere else where it is backed by logic.

I guess you’ve never heard of blinking, and portals?

Mesmers do have very poor Landspeed, and in order to compensate have to make build decisions that come at a cost.

Warriors have outstanding Landspeed, and can also build for what’s known as “Nike Warrior” mode to have insane Landspeed.

Mesmers are regarded to have great in-combat mobility because of things like Blink and Staff 2, even sword 2 which can get you to a target even if imob’d. Portal is the anti-thesis of Landspeed because it doesnt move you forward, it moves you back.

The OP’ness of Landspeed (or Mobility if you will, depending on your definition) was discussed at length in this massive thread some time ago.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/Warriors-best-landspeed-no-balance/first

Yes, Engies have insane Landspeed thanks to their swiftness uptime and utils like Rocket Boots. The CC (like magnet pull) can make them a superior opponent in chases, so there’s credibility there. Eles can pull out astonishing mobility/landspeed feats too. Thief? Stealth + teleports…. nuff said. Mes can do stealth + blink, but without swiftness all these other Landspeed kings will catch up to them quickly enough to deal with them.

Anyway, on with the thread.

agree with op. ppl know it since a long time ago, just less complained upon, but i’m not looking forward to any changes. already gave up on that kind of outlook.

This thread make me laugh so hard…mobility is OP .. lol here I thought,after two years in the game,that ppl would understand that,CONDITIONS IS AT BROKEN STATE,and not the celestial kitten,conditions are the biggest problem,and saying ele and enigeer are op cause of ? MOBILITY? hahahahahahahahahaha try the condition spam they have.that is what make them lethal.