All class balanced, conquest game the culprit

All class balanced, conquest game the culprit

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Posted by: Forestgreen.7981

Forestgreen.7981

Don’t get me wrong, a few tweaking here and there but minor nonetheless. But from what I see, fighting on a tiny point and being tanky to hold said point is the only reason why “x” class is more op than another. Hell even in WvW a ranger with sick’em will literally absolutely lock down and spell instant death for stealth-spam mesmers/thieves.

I’ve spectated low level pug games where people who do not run the cookie-cutter build for x class and it has been great to watch. Everyone plays differently because they’re all traited differently. kitten it A-Net wheres them new game modes!

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Posted by: Bhawb.7408

Bhawb.7408

Balanced for what? You can’t say they are balanced without a game mode. They sure as hell aren’t balanced for anything deathmatch related, CTF wouldn’t be remotely balanced, frankly capture points (as much as people dislike them sometimes) are some of the only things keeping garbage like PU out of the game.

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Posted by: Black Box.9312

Black Box.9312

I wouldn’t say that all of the classes are balanced perfectly, but I do agree that point capture is a poor game mode to base class balance on.

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Posted by: Substance E.4852

Substance E.4852

I’m pretty sure that, at this point, the only reason we don’t have any other pvp modes is because Anet simply doesn’t want to be bothered trying to balance for multiple modes.
None of the game balance up till now has been with any other mode in mind and things like CtF, KotH, and team deathmatch would need entirely different methods of consideration.

KotH would be especially absurd.. 5 bunkers vs 5 bunkers to see who can turtle for the win the hardest.

Never mind how stupid Capture the flag would be with thieves and Usain Bolt Warriors flying across the map at lightspeed.

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All class balanced, conquest game the culprit

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Posted by: Black Box.9312

Black Box.9312

I’m pretty sure that, at this point, the only reason we don’t have any other pvp modes is because Anet simply doesn’t want to be bothered trying to balance for multiple modes.
None of the game balance up till now has been with any other mode in mind and things like CtF, KotH, and team deathmatch would need entirely different methods of consideration.

KotH would be especially absurd.. 5 bunkers vs 5 bunkers to see who can turtle for the win the hardest.

Never mind how stupid Capture the flag would be with thieves and Usain Bolt Warriors flying across the map at lightspeed.

They don’t need to bother with all that. The game is combat-based, so base balancing on the combat interactions themselves. Team deathmatch would really be the only thing required for balancing. Once you can balance how two teams fight against each other, everything else would fall into place.

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Posted by: Bhawb.7408

Bhawb.7408

They don’t need to bother with all that. The game is combat-based, so base balancing on the combat interactions themselves. Team deathmatch would really be the only thing required for balancing. Once you can balance how two teams fight against each other, everything else would fall into place.

The lack of an objective makes a massive difference, and the nature of the objective if you have one matters a lot as well. Objectives will always matter and influence the nature of combat, you cannot just separate them.

Also, ANet has said dozens of times that they are making a new mode, I’m not sure why people appear to be unable to comprehend that when its sitting on the forums with a bright red mark next to it.

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Posted by: Black Box.9312

Black Box.9312

They don’t need to bother with all that. The game is combat-based, so base balancing on the combat interactions themselves. Team deathmatch would really be the only thing required for balancing. Once you can balance how two teams fight against each other, everything else would fall into place.

The lack of an objective makes a massive difference, and the nature of the objective if you have one matters a lot as well. Objectives will always matter and influence the nature of combat, you cannot just separate them.

Also, ANet has said dozens of times that they are making a new mode, I’m not sure why people appear to be unable to comprehend that when its sitting on the forums with a bright red mark next to it.

The point isn’t that they need to remove objectives entirely from the combat. The point is that they need to prioritize the fights themselves for the balancing, and have the interactions with any secondary objectives be just that: secondary.

The common theme between all game modes is the combat. If you balance the combat first and foremost, from there you can fine tune the little things to suit each game mode. It might be a little more work, but the result will be a hell of a lot better than the kitten we have now.

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Posted by: Forestgreen.7981

Forestgreen.7981

Like for example anything OTHER than sitting on a point would already make balance alot closer to what is it in WvW. In WvW people fight over large areas and this is where the terrible weapon combos such as rifle warrior, long bow rangers shine in sPvP. Right now, most of the fighting is done over a small area which is why when people complain about hambow being OP and what now. Move that to large battle areas hambow are completely worthless as no one is going to fight in their fire fields and they can be kited to hell and can’t disengage as well as other builds.

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Posted by: Zenith.7301

Zenith.7301

Rangers would disagree.

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Posted by: Bhawb.7408

Bhawb.7408

So we want the game to be “balanced” like WvW? WvW is the worst balanced game mode of all three, no thanks I don’t want things to be like that.

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Posted by: Substance E.4852

Substance E.4852

So we want the game to be “balanced” like WvW? WvW is the worst balanced game mode of all three, no thanks I don’t want things to be like that.

Two zergs of equal size and equal comp determine victory by commander and grunt skill. How is that “unballanced”?

Spvp will always have a set limit of team size be it 5 or a larger size for official GvG.

You are never going to have a “they beat us because they had more guys” issue in spvp.

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Posted by: Forestgreen.7981

Forestgreen.7981

WvW is the one mode where everyone’s builds/playstyle is MOST diverse. There are players who trait specifically for groups fight, people who go for solo, sniping, mobility etc. Yet they are ALL effective and work well. This is where balance is most fair at the moment, not in sPvP where its one build per class and nothing else works as well.

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Posted by: Lightsbane.9012

Lightsbane.9012

balancing based on the results of conquest game mode is the culprit
fixed it for you.

As quick as the Valkyries ride,
As true as Odin’s spear flies,
There is nowhere to hide.

All class balanced, conquest game the culprit

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Posted by: Bhawb.7408

Bhawb.7408

Two zergs of equal size and equal comp determine victory by commander and grunt skill. How is that “unballanced”?

Spvp will always have a set limit of team size be it 5 or a larger size for official GvG.

You are never going to have a “they beat us because they had more guys” issue in spvp.

WvW has no meaningful class balance at all. There is no way to force zergs to have equal balance or size, there is no way to force servers to have equal players, or to ensure that the quality of the players are fairly constant. Hell, even the maps aren’t balanced.

WvW is the one mode where everyone’s builds/playstyle is MOST diverse. There are players who trait specifically for groups fight, people who go for solo, sniping, mobility etc. Yet they are ALL effective and work well. This is where balance is most fair at the moment, not in sPvP where its one build per class and nothing else works as well.

WvW zergs are dominated by 4 professions, hence GWEN, with a mesmer there to veilbot and maybe thieves on the side. Roaming is dominated by high mobility and dueling builds that stack as many broken mechanics as they can together.

This isn’t remotely better than PvP. The only thing that makes it “feel” better is the fact that I can run around on some random garbage build I threw together, kill some uplevels, and spam AoE on a zerg and feel like I’m contributing. It is far easier to hide your awful build when you have 49 people around you playing well, and hundreds of people on the separate maps and different time zones covering up for you, in a 5v5 that simply doesn’t fly.

They already released a TDM mode, its called Courtyard. And it was boring and awful and now the map is only used for 2v2/3v3s which have a set of rules because without that we’d all shoot ourselves when it takes an hour for a best of 3 to happen because both teams were bunkers slapping each other with wet noodles.

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(edited by Bhawb.7408)

All class balanced, conquest game the culprit

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Posted by: NinjaEd.3946

NinjaEd.3946

Conquest is fine, its the map and rule sets in conquest that are at fault (although I believe profession balance to be the “culprit”.

1. 5 points on kill, it adds up quick on certain maps where side objectives don’t really help your points.

2. Small maps, makes for easy mobility and allows for “zerging”.

In the end, why not zerg? You get 5x X points, you are entirely less likely to die and you when you win you can drop 1 guy to cap the point and send 4 people to another. In the meantime the other team has to wait on a spawn time so for a short window you have the easily distinguished upper hand. Better yet, I’ve seen most drop 1 extremely heavy bunker (guardian usually) and send 4 people to bounce between points dominating. Counter? Do the same thing…. Result? zzzzzz

Remove points on kill and make larger maps. Give a reason to split up so that traditional roles prior to this non sense can go back to a regular appearance. Right now the “roamer” is just sitting on the backline waiting to pick anyone off who happens to be running away, few matches I see them actually back capping or taking side objectives like the enemy lord or beasts (svanir, chieftan).

This is from watching tourny’s and playing tpvp. Hotjoin has its own share of problems.

“I’m waiting for the staff to get off their lunch
break. I feel like they should be back by now..”

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Posted by: Prysin.8542

Prysin.8542

This game would be balanced if they used 8v8 instead of 5v5 as “base reference point”

Lv 80 Guard, Ranger, Ele, Thief, warr, engi
Currently @ some T1 server in EU

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Posted by: digiowl.9620

digiowl.9620

I agree with OP (and likely tared and feathered him by stating so).

The focus on conquest, and the central mechanic of holding capture points, ends up coloring every balance choice taken.

The end result is that they can’t really touch conditions or defense, as that leads to condibunkers. As such they keep constantly ramping up DD spiking, leading to constant reinforcing of zerker uber alles in PVE.

With WVW the scale of things turn everything “gray”. Those that can field the most reserves for the longest time wins, and that has been a “issue” with war since the start of history.

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Posted by: RyuDragnier.9476

RyuDragnier.9476

Balanced for what? You can’t say they are balanced without a game mode. They sure as hell aren’t balanced for anything deathmatch related, CTF wouldn’t be remotely balanced, frankly capture points (as much as people dislike them sometimes) are some of the only things keeping garbage like PU out of the game.

Capture mode in general is horrible to balance around, and the mode in general will never put them in the esports category Anet obsesses over. Add a Team Deathmatch mode, and balance around that. Suddenly the classes will become better across the board since balancing for this mode will help point out where each class needs some more help in for group play.

It also opens up more than just bunker builds because burst builds will become viable, and it will also help point out certain builds that are a bit too powerful and allow them to be nerfed. For example, we’d probably see PU mesmers and D/P stealth spam thieves nerfed decently in such a mode because how powerful they actually are would come to light due to the fact that it’s all battle related. Not to mention I’d be more inclined to play a PvP mode (other than WvW) where almost any build can work.

[hS]
PvE Main – Zar Poisonclaw – Daredevil
WvW Main – Ghost Mistcaller – Herald

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Posted by: Carighan.6758

Carighan.6758

Nothing is really balanced. At least not on a class level.

For PvP there’d need to be mostly a parity of power. This is actually quite independent of the game mode, as all that changes is how you define “power”. In smallscale encounters in a RPG, you have to always do what RPGs are originally not meant to do, equalize per-situation power.

Nearly contrary to this, WvW medium~large scale combat relies on a parity of scaling. It’s less important that a Mesmer is as strong in a 5v5 than a Warrior, it’s more important that the relative standing doesn’t change much from adding players. Each class should be as needed, as wanted and as useful in a 50v50 as in a 5v5. This is the key element of large-scale balance, and usually woefully overlooking as power is focused instead (only, just because power is on-par in small scale doesn’t at all equalize the scaling, PvP could be well-balanced while WvW is way out of whack – and mostly, this can also happen the other way around).

For PvE, we need a balance of perceived power. Again, different beast entirely, and among other things it requires a PvE-system in which various specific class elements are challenged frequently but never 100%-required for success.

Anyhow my point was, none of this has balanced classes. They’re just imbalanced in different ways.

The strength of heart to face oneself has been made manifest. The persona Carighan has appeared.

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Posted by: Sagat.3285

Sagat.3285

Conquest and wvw are fine,remember the game doesn’t support 1v1,have people on squad to cover your weaknesses and cover theirs, we just need more types in pvp the deatmatch is not enough.

“Revenant is actual proof that devs read the necromancer forum” – Pelopidas.2140
The Dhuumfire thread

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Posted by: Black Box.9312

Black Box.9312

Conquest and wvw are fine,remember the game doesn’t support 1v1,have people on squad to cover your weaknesses and cover theirs, we just need more types in pvp the deatmatch is not enough.

If this game wasn’t meant to support 1v1, then we wouldn’t have classes like ranger which are balanced around single target combat. So somewhere down the line Anet is giving us mixed signals.

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Posted by: METAShift.2913

METAShift.2913

Conquest and wvw are fine,remember the game doesn’t support 1v1,have people on squad to cover your weaknesses and cover theirs, we just need more types in pvp the deatmatch is not enough.

If this game wasn’t meant to support 1v1, then we wouldn’t have classes like ranger which are balanced around single target combat. So somewhere down the line Anet is giving us mixed signals.

Single target combat =/= 1v1. It’s not the same as 2 classes with full HP and cooldowns coming to fight just for the sake of it. The game definitely SUPPORTS 1v1, as in, you can do it, but it’s balanced around holding points and 5v5. Builds like hambow are mostly trash in 1v1 fights where the enemy can kite, but are considered very strong because they can fight on point and survive. A thief, probably the most single target damage focused class in the game, isn’t usually used to “1v1” people, it’s used for applying pressure to priority targets in teamfights.

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Posted by: BurrTheKing.8571

BurrTheKing.8571

I’m going to again repeat what I have said many times. Conquest is a good game mode, but only if done right. Battlefield has generally done it the best. The points are large enough that you can take cover/move around without leaving the point and the team with the most players on point gets progress towards the capture.

Having small points and letting one person totally deny the cap of 2+ will always encourage tanky and AoE builds and make some builds appear stronger than they really are. Hambow in an open area is really easy to beat but when avoiding the Combustion Shot and Earthshaker means leaving the point it makes it much stronger.

I would imagine that larger points and majority cap would encourage more diverse builds and would make picking off glass builds actually matter but would also encourage their use to get the numbers advantage in those mid fights.

Just an angry old man…

Old Man Burr (War), Bad Hat Ben (Engi), Manly Manny Manson (Guard)

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Posted by: Carighan.6758

Carighan.6758

If this game wasn’t meant to support 1v1, then we wouldn’t have classes like ranger which are balanced around single target combat. So somewhere down the line Anet is giving us mixed signals.

No, the two aren’t opposed.

In a game balanced around group or even zerg combat, you can very much have classes balanced around targeting single opponents. That’s the whole idea behind assassin or sniper classes in team warfare, actually. Take out individual key targets. While a larger fight is ongoing, often.

Compare Sniper or Spy in group situations in TF2. They’re not balanced for 1v1, thy automatically win most 1v1. However given the fight at large, they’re still balanced.

And that’s the basic idea behind such characters:

  • Superior ability fighting a single target.
  • Lack of ability or seriously weakened ability to fight multiple targets.

Why these players would still fight in a team is simple – and where GW2 currently has issues:

  • Character still depends on the rest of the classes for survival.

Compare for example the sniper in TF2. Yes, a sniper can take out any class with a headshot. But not only is this is a very limited role and highly instable (indirect fire / splash damage / temporary special effects can deny you the instant kill and push you into direct combat where you usually lose), there’s a specific class out there to hint you. The Spy. You can’t headshot him because you can’t see him, and he in turn 1-shots you.
This is balanced because in turn you 1-shot specific other characters. Yet you cannot fight without your team, you need the support.

To compare, a Ranger in GW2 would (idealized) need the team to give her cover from the adjacent combat (say the Ranger is very frail or will react badly to incidental AE effects or cannot handle external CC at all), but can reliably remove a single enemy character without that enemy having much chance to win. In turn the ranger needs the range, so if you got a 1200 range charge or stealth available, you can deny her the moment to use her potential. Note however that ideally the ranger-targeted enemy does not get a chance to do this. Someone else has to do it (compare again Sniper <→ Spy in TF2).

Idealized solution ofc.

But to get back to the initial point and TL’DR: 1v1-centric characters actually have a specific role in group-combat-balance. They’re not opposed to it at all.

The strength of heart to face oneself has been made manifest. The persona Carighan has appeared.

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Posted by: LordByron.8369

LordByron.8369

The capture point centered balance is just guilty of the most unfun and unbalanced Patches for 99,9% of players.

Ruining PvE but mostly WWW since release.

If splitting skill is hard don’t balance on the part played by 0,1% of players.

GW2 balance:
A PvE player is supposed to avoid a 1-2 second 1 shotting aoe.
A WWW player is considered uncapable of avoiding a 5,75 second aoe for half his health.

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Posted by: Carighan.6758

Carighan.6758

If splitting skill is hard don’t balance on the part played by 0,1% of players.

This pretty much.
Ha! I agree with you! Bet you didn’t see that one coming! :P

The strength of heart to face oneself has been made manifest. The persona Carighan has appeared.

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Posted by: Atherakhia.4086

Atherakhia.4086

Even though I agree with the idea that there’s no true way to balance WvW because you’ll never deal with even sides, if real balance existed we wouldn’t be sitting on the GWEN meta now for a year. The year before wouldn’t have been nothing but Guardians and Warriors. In 2 years we would have seen a single post highlighting how useful Rangers were. None of that has happened.

We also have GvG. If balance were real you’d see more variety in the setups used. Instead they still follow the GWEN model only we now have Thieves to play a periphery role, but the counter to the periphery Thief is still part of the GWEN.

Have we ever had more than half the classes in the meta at once in 2 years regardless of what part of the game we’re talking about? I don’t think so, but I may be wrong. But I really can’t agree with the OP… this game is pretty far from being balanced.

When I hear on Teamspeak for the commanders asking Rangers to do something or for Mesmers to be mentioned for any other function than portal or veil, I’ll start to buy into the whole ‘balance’ theory.

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Posted by: Forestgreen.7981

Forestgreen.7981

The only reason why GWEN is good in WvW is because of the numbers players there are in the game mode. You’re looking at 80 on each side, when this number is reduced to something like 10 or 8, its horrible, almost every AoE is going to hit you and you’ll never catch anybody chasing down one guy while everyone else raining hell on you from afar or killing the guy in the back.
If you look at GvG, you’ll know everyone runs a pick team, a team killing off one after another as a thief/mesmer instead of your standard GWEN.

Edited: Also I’m am solely using WvW as an example because WvW open field fighting has nothing forcing you to fight in enclosed areas where longbow warriors can completely lock down an area with fire fields giving him a massive advantage over yourself. Players can utilize their mobility and disengage something warriors not not have with hambow which players are always so adamant about as to why they are so strong.

(edited by Forestgreen.7981)