Guild Wars 2

After reading through Phantarams post on nerfing Elementalists he does a great job of stating which skills and abilities are making Elementalists too powerful.
However, I’m at a disagreement of how it is handled, then while typing my own post to nerfing Elementalists, with a focus of forcing them spec more into offense to deal damage and moving some defensive traits around rather than toning them down.
As I believe the problem is too much overall defense, rather than the defense is too powerful. Plus with less damage outputted, Elementalists will have no choice but to sacrifice defense if they wish to achieve more in fights.

Then on my last theory craft, as I was about to finish up and post. Something occurred to me.
How do you nerf defense?

Nerfing offensive capabilities is easy, after all, there is only so many factors that can be applied to an offensive output.

However, inputs are just an entirely different beast, a freaking monster of a theory craft.

Nerfing defensive capabilities is hard, as you must consider EVERYTHING that can affect the player. All the outputs can affect every single input of defense.

The fastest and easiest way to nerfing defensive capabilities is constant trial and error and asking yourself if it’s fair.
There has to be something I am not seeing, something I’ve overlooked. Nerfing or buffing defense cannot just simply be trial and error with personal opinion.

So how the hell do you nerf defense ArenaNet? There must be some plan, structure, test or formula out there that can easily lead to answers, give me the answer of what you do.

Generally speaking you nerf defense in RPGs one of two ways:

1. Increase everyone else’s offense. This is tricky because it assumes everyone of one class uses a single loadout. If not, you have anywhere from 50-400 “classes” or so, need to buff 398 or something, and loads share abilities. Won’t go down well.
2. You don’t. You buff everyone else’s defense. MMORPGs are family-friendly games, shared by cliques or families of people. On average, you’re safer having everyone live too long than too short.

they do it to necro all the time so I don’t see how they would have a problem…

Well generally speaking the problem making Ele so powerful is the fact they can stack so much might while using a very defensive amulet & trait set up.

If they would simply reduce the might stacking the spec can do in pvp then it would be fine.

I’m not one to hop on any nerf bandwagons for other classes, because it always comes back around. Karma is a kitten.

That being said, I think a fix to lightning whip “stow weapon” bug/exploit would be a good place to start. Without nerfing intended mechanics, some of the over the top sustain could be shaved.

unlucky.9285:

they do it to necro all the time so I don’t see how they would have a problem…

What does that have to do with anything? This thread isn’t about crying about necros. It is asking a question.

Personally, I feel some of the best ways to nerf defense in the case of of the elementalist are to put more limitations on the access vigor.

Another method could be to shave some of the weapons damage. This would force players to trait less into pure defense, and have to put more points into damage traits to compensate.

coglin.1867:

unlucky.9285:

they do it to necro all the time so I don’t see how they would have a problem…

What does that have to do with anything? This thread isn’t about crying about necros. It is asking a question.

Personally, I feel some of the best ways to nerf defense in the case of of the elementalist are to put more limitations on the access to regeneration, protection, and vigor.

Thread is asking about how to nerf defense in general, not just on eles.

That said, on the Celestial D/D, shaving a second off Protection gained here, another second off the vigor there, etc. is honestly the best way to nerf the defense while leaving it still being effective when used well.

All these pointless threads about ele beeing OP…

1. Ele was abyssmal bad before the last big changes because it lacked defense, sustained damage and got eaten alive by conditions if specced only slightly bursty.
2. Ele had it’s defense buffed by a tiny bit. However those changes alone would have made ele a subpar bunker at best – nothing more.
3. Anet then had the brilliant idea to completely overhaul runes and sigils to completely destroy balancing attempts made so far. These changes gave ele the sustained damage it never really had.

Problem now (not only with ele though): ele is a bunker that (thanks to might) also deals an acceptable amount of damage and lames enemies to death.
However, if you nerf defense ele will propably once again disappear from the screen because it’s (even now with defensive speccs) relativeley prone to spike-damage and condition-spam which then will be even worse.
A nerf to runes/sigils/celestial amulet on the other hand will degrade ele to nothing more but a somewhat nasty bunker.

Since the release of the game ele was always forced to play kinda bunkerish due to low base-stats and no active defense-mechanisms. Those things won’t change so (sadly) the ele will continue to be pushed into bunker-speccs.

possible solution: buff base-stats, then you can both

• nerf defensive traits and indirectly make offensive builds more appealing/efficient
• in turn nerf runes or whatever because more offensives speccs will give ele enough damage to compensate for this.

Eles could then still build bunkerish if they want to (won’t deal damage though because they lack offensive traits) and at the same time more offensive builds would also be viable because with base-defense buffed you won’t miss those (atm) obligatory defensive traits/utilities and have enough points to invest in offensive traits.

-> problems solved

Just nerf cele DD damage out put as bunker shouldnt do much damage.
and ele already have high enough damage output with non bunker builds.

The same way you nerf offense. You examine what players are using to produce results. If a skill/trait/rune/sigil/[rpf mechanic is OP, adjust. If a synergy is producing results over-and-above what’s desired, you adjust.

If ele’s are producing too much damage while in a bunker spec, that would not call for a defensive nerf. If the Ele bunker is too bulky, that would.

ArenaNet way of boost and nerf.
Warrior

• nerfed melee
• boosted hambow

100% win.

Carighan.6758:

Generally speaking you nerf defense in RPGs one of two ways:

1. Increase everyone else’s offense. This is tricky because it assumes everyone of one class uses a single loadout. If not, you have anywhere from 50-400 “classes” or so, need to buff 398 or something, and loads share abilities. Won’t go down well.
2. You don’t. You buff everyone else’s defense. MMORPGs are family-friendly games, shared by cliques or families of people. On average, you’re safer having everyone live too long than too short.

The last thing this game needs is a longer TTK.

I have no problem with elementalists being bunkery.

The problem is when they can bunker & put out allot of damage, while also having a ton of support & also having ways to escape fights.

The most simple solution is to look at the trait “Spell Slinger” & how many might stacks are applied by blast finishers on fire fields.

Reducing said might stacks from the trait & from blasts (in PvP only) will allow the ele to bunker but do so without having all the damage potential.

Everyone knows they need a bit of a nerf.

But is it better to nerf Cele + Might Stacking across the board.

Or nerf individual Ele skills.

I am fine with either. I don’t want to see Ele gutted, but ATM anyone who is not a noob is a Raid Boss for other classes, they need some shaving to their defense and burning.

IndigoSundown.5419:

The same way you nerf offense. You examine what players are using to produce results. If a skill/trait/rune/sigil/[rpf mechanic is OP, adjust. If a synergy is producing results over-and-above what’s desired, you adjust.

If ele’s are producing too much damage while in a bunker spec, that would not call for a defensive nerf. If the Ele bunker is too bulky, that would.

But it’s not the same for offense, it’s far more complicated.

Where do you balance defense?

• Do you balance it on how many options for defense?
• Do you balance it on how powerful the defense is?
• Do you balance it on how recoverable it is?
• Do you balance it on how quick it is?
• Do you balance it on how long it is?
• Do you balance it on how accessible it is?
• Do you balance it on how mobile it is?
• Do you balance it on counter-able it is?
• Do you balance it on how supporting it is?
• Do you balance it on how offensive the defense is?

Sure, offense is complicated but it only involves output actions. An input action has to consider ALL the outputs.

A problem that was created by the overhaul to runes and sigils, that made might stacking a nightmare in conjunction with the Celestial stats.

I always knew Celestial was going to be a problem sooner or later, its simply flat out way more stats. A limiting factor was suppose to be “you cant use all the stats effectively anyway”, well some builds and professions can. Might stacking on top of that and you have decent health, armour, healing and solid damage thanks to baseline decent crit/critdmg/power/cond. supplemented by high and long stacks of Might.

And instead of shaving a bit off the top, the whole profession is simply being taken down a peg. Which will only result in a lot of unviable builds, while cele/might is the only way to go.
Thats the arenanet way of balancing. Dont nerf the outliers, simply pull the whole profession down untill the outliers at the top are where you want the balance to be.

In the meantime the problem is still not fixed because ele is not the only one that scales a bit to well with Celestial stats + good might stacking…

Why is everyone saying ele is op? They seem pretty even in higher tier pvp.

IMO very tanky defense should be “nerfed” by removing it via passive playstyle and instead should be provided through usable skills which provide major defense in short bursts. Defense should come through good counter play IMO.

Unfortunately I never see this happening in GW2, this would mean a huge reduction in boon duration, conditions would need to become difficult to apply, lots of skills would need revamping… I guess I’ll keep dreaming.

Meh. The basic problem of the game is that so much of defense and support is not tied to stats. This makes them not change in effectiveness alongside other changes to a build.

Aegis: you either stop the attack or you don’t.
blindness: same.
Defense: 30% reduction, no matter what.
block, dodge, evasion: immune to damage for the duration, no matter what.

Maybe you can shift their duration up or down by a percentage. But their numerical effectiveness when hit is the same no matter what gear you grab or trait line you go for.

Harper.4173:

The last thing this game needs is a longer TTK.

Have you been in larger fights? Usually you die before you realized a fight was happening.

digiowl.9620:

Meh. The basic problem of the game is that so much of defense and support is not tied to stats. This makes them not change in effectiveness alongside other changes to a build.

Aegis: you either stop the attack or you don’t.
blindness: same.
Defense: 30% reduction, no matter what.
block, dodge, evasion: immune to damage for the duration, no matter what.

Maybe you can shift their duration up or down by a percentage. But their numerical effectiveness when hit is the same no matter what gear you grab or trait line you go for.

There are also a lot of conditions not tied to stats.

I made a threat about removing the mechanics of conditions and boons in favor of a deeper, more customizable and robust system.
But was instantly shot down by several QQ-my build will be ruined, how canz I PvP without condi-spam players.

Even with not tied to stats, conditions like burning, torment and confusion still hit hard with 0 condition damage and to make matters worse they don’t have to have condition damage as Might makes it more powerful.

Gorni.1764:

All these pointless threads about ele beeing OP…

1. Ele was abyssmal bad before the last big changes because it lacked defense, sustained damage and got eaten alive by conditions if specced only slightly bursty.
2. Ele had it’s defense buffed by a tiny bit. However those changes alone would have made ele a subpar bunker at best – nothing more.
3. Anet then had the brilliant idea to completely overhaul runes and sigils to completely destroy balancing attempts made so far. These changes gave ele the sustained damage it never really had.

Problem now (not only with ele though): ele is a bunker that (thanks to might) also deals an acceptable amount of damage and lames enemies to death.
However, if you nerf defense ele will propably once again disappear from the screen because it’s (even now with defensive speccs) relativeley prone to spike-damage and condition-spam which then will be even worse.
A nerf to runes/sigils/celestial amulet on the other hand will degrade ele to nothing more but a somewhat nasty bunker.

Since the release of the game ele was always forced to play kinda bunkerish due to low base-stats and no active defense-mechanisms. Those things won’t change so (sadly) the ele will continue to be pushed into bunker-speccs.

possible solution: buff base-stats, then you can both

• nerf defensive traits and indirectly make offensive builds more appealing/efficient
• in turn nerf runes or whatever because more offensives speccs will give ele enough damage to compensate for this.

Eles could then still build bunkerish if they want to (won’t deal damage though because they lack offensive traits) and at the same time more offensive builds would also be viable because with base-defense buffed you won’t miss those (atm) obligatory defensive traits/utilities and have enough points to invest in offensive traits.

-> problems solved

Problem being shortness of memory, early on the profession was top of food chain, and then they adjusted (which for some destroyed elementalist) gradually the were more adjustment and there are again problems to balance around. In one of the state of the games (or really early ready ups) I recall Chaplin stating that elemental balance could back to aspect predator again with only tiny buffs.

What do can they really do with that at this point? Most likely they will choose to bring options down first then see what happens so Wack-a-mole is likely to be the fate of the elementalist.

I don’t think hard defense in any game is ever realllly a problem… damage reduction and mitigation is usally fairly balanced… The problem I find it’s usually the sustain attached that is an issue.

Depending on the game, if you can heal enough you are virtually immortal since that’s an endless pool you are filling.

So when I see eles and engies and guards healing to extreme levels without reliable methods of shutting it down I tend to take issue.

So to me the way I’d start nerfing defense is by shaving the healing.

BUT IMO I think in terms of ele the healing is more or less fine if the damage output was more in line for what it should be as part of a defensive build.

Carighan.6758:

Harper.4173:

The last thing this game needs is a longer TTK.

Have you been in larger fights? Usually you die before you realized a fight was happening.

Haven’t noticed. Maybe it’s just you.