Boom spam is imbalance #1

Boom spam is imbalance #1

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Posted by: Dee Jay.2460

Dee Jay.2460

I wanted to talk about the current state of balance based on my experiences from both WvW and sPvP. Some things I say will be based more on WvW, others on sPvP.

In my opinion the current major source of imbalance comes from Boon- and Condition spam.

Let me explain. I will list all the classes and builds I currently consider overpowered.

  • Warrior – Healing Signet in general, Hambow + Strength Runes.
  • Guardians – Bunker Guardians in general. Have been uncontested bunkers since lauch, add may too much group support and boon sharing. See massive amounts of Guardians in WvW (especially zergs) and win-ratio in sPvP for proof.
  • Rangers – The perma-evade spam builds with constant Protection and Regeneration.
  • Thieves – Excessive Blind spam with Pistol offhand makes them hard to counter in WvW. P/D sustain/pressure is pretty stupid too in WvW.
  • Engineers – Poorly telegraphed condition burst and condi-spam in general Especially Burning deals insane damage all while being able to kite and CC.
  • Mesmers – Prismatic Understanding…enough said.
  • Elementalists – Insanely overpowered in WvW. Way too much damage and sustain in WvW thanks to Runes of Strength and constant Protection and Regeneration.
  • Necromancer – Minion Masters are a bit op in sPvP, again due to constant Protection and Regeneration.

Now you can argue all day about specific imbalances but that’s not my point. My point is, that if you take a look at this list a lot of OPness from specific builds comes down to a high uptime and both Regeneration and especially Protection (and to a lesser extent Vigor).

The thing is, Protection is an incredibly powerful boon. And yet it is handed out like candy to a lot of build allowing them to achieve insane levels of survivability with very little trade-off. Having a high Protection uptime is like putting a cloth class in heavy armor. When combined with Regeneration, which too, while being a weaker boon is still very abundant, and Vigor it creates a very tanky meta that doesn’t trade offensive for defense in a fair way.

Conditions benefit from this because they circumvent Protection and are applied and spread very easily.

Guardians deserve special attention in this regard. While in themselves they may seem ok, once you add them into a group they add an insane level of sustain with very little trade-off and thus breaking the balance. This is evident in the ridiculous amounts of Guardians modern guilds stack into their WvW line up. This is the same reason they have been the uncontested bunkers in sPvP with no other class ever being able to fill that role. Is this good or fair design?

So what does this mean?

Well frankly I think ANet needs to take a good look and how easily and abundantly some builds and classes can stack Protection especially, and to a lesser extent Regeneration. PU Mesmers are probably the pinnacle here and a great example what sort of game-play ensures when these boons become too available on too short a cooldown.

Protection is a powerful boon and should be treated as such, not handed out like candy on a children’s party.

Guardians need their boon-sharing capabilities nerfed. I don’t think it’s ok for “defensive group support” to be an aspect almost entirely relegated to one class. Spread the love.

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Posted by: Roe.3679

Roe.3679

I think guardians are pretty ok but I do agree that there are generally too many boons, especially might and vigor in my opinion.

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Posted by: Bhawb.7408

Bhawb.7408

  • Necromancer – Minion Masters are a bit op in sPvP, again due to constant Protection and Regeneration.

Uh… what MM build has constant protection? You have 0 access to protection in MM builds except through runes.

But of Corpse – Watch us on YouTube
My PvP Minion Build

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Posted by: ArmageddonAsh.6430

ArmageddonAsh.6430

I

  • Elementalists – Insanely overpowered in WvW. Way too much damage and sustain in WvW thanks to Runes of Strength and constant Protection and Regeneration.

If we need runes of Strength to be good how does that make us Overpowered? surely the issue would be with the runeset, just like it is with all the other classes.

Constant Protection?
That is a 4 point trait for 6 seconds every 10 3/4 seconds, in an attunement that is very little threat and is meant to be about defence

Constant Regen?
That is a 4 point trait for 6 seconds every 10 3/4 seconds or a 20 point trait for Cantrips. or a 2 point trait for like 4 seconds on crit

Or using LONG cool down skills such as Armour of Earth

the Protection, Regen can easily be removed and is pretty important for keeping the only class with low health and low armour alive…

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Posted by: Cold Hearted Person.6154

Cold Hearted Person.6154

Uh, you are missing the point here, this thread is more about x build + x rune/sigil = boon/condi spam which in return = imbalance, and thats is right, altho i dont think that conditions are that hard to handle, boons on the other hand are rather imposible to handle, most if not all profession can spam boons every 5-10s and can spread it around in aoe, which makes something like boon removal usless especialy since its on long cd.
Yea, many boons have short duration but they are coupled with short cd that completly remove the disadvantage of short duration, whether source of this boon is 50-50 from gear and profession or even 100% from rune/sigils or profession doesnt matter, the fact is that its spamable.

In fact my main build for wvw solo roaming(wont meantion which profession) can easly achive perma protection, and i dont even have to try to do it, most of it comes from passive traits and passive rune effects.

p.s. forgot to meantion that after 5 minute fight in wvw i end up with 2 minutes of swiftness on me.

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Posted by: oZii.2864

oZii.2864

Good presentation then I saw elementalist as insanely OP in WvW.

I main elementalist and to say it’s insanely op in WvW screams “I have trouble with Eles in duels”. That’s being honest knowing the class this is only duel focused. When there are higher numbers or a necromancers around reduces the effectiveness of a ele. If your selling this then at least present on more the duels and 1v1.

Anyway I think this is intended otherwise why give runes of earth, strength, speed, pack. If they didn’t want people to augment their boons they could have easily not put them on runes it’s pretty simple.

[Good Fights]Sinndicate{Ele}Sinactic{Engineer}
Sinnastor{Warrior}Sinnacle{Mesmer}Sintacs
{Thief}

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Posted by: Solori.6025

Solori.6025

In fact my main build for wvw solo roaming(wont meantion which profession) can easly achive perma protection, and i dont even have to try to do it, most of it comes from passive traits and passive rune effects.

p.s. forgot to meantion that after 5 minute fight in wvw i end up with 2 minutes of swiftness on me.

So you wont mention the profession or provide a build..

Yea, you are such a reliable source we should just blindly trust what you say right?

BTW I think fox news is hiring.


The world needs more KUNG FURY!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bS5P_LAqiVg

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Posted by: SoLeciTO.3490

SoLeciTO.3490

Conclusion , all classes are OP. DAT LOGIC

No seriously,let’s talk about what you said. First hambow is OP only because of the sustain from tanky amulets and strength runes > exactly like D/D ele. So the problem isint the class but the gear.

Bunker guardian OP? Yes it is but its their class mechanic to support your team. Its like saying thieves have too much mobility. Its what they are supposed to do , you can’t take it away.

Engi condi spam not telegraphed ? The only one that is not telegraphed is incendiery powder but again what makes it OP is the Balthazar runes and not a class mechanic.

Thief too much blind? So what warrior too much stun. Gotta deal with it.

Ranger bunker builds too tanky? They are only good in 1v1 and suck at everything else, you shouldn’t be 1v1ing a bunker ranger anyway it’s a waste of time.

PU mesmer and shadow arts OP in wvw roaming? Yes they are but who cares, both of those builds are beyond terrible everywhere outside of 1v1.

MM necro OP? lol how is it OP? The AI is stupid and the necro is just a HP sponge if he is running MM.

So yea some stuff is OP in certain situations but who cares. Also celestial amulet , baltazar and strength rune nerf would fix a lot of stuff.

Pretty much this . . .

Again you are calling OP things that come with the role.

i don’t think there is a big imbalance in the game currently . . . neither OP classes.

Every single thread complaining about imbalance is a L2P issue most of the time.

I’m a thief, i hate engis . . . they melt me down . . . but i would never consider them OP or ask for nerf.

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Posted by: Kiriakulos.1690

Kiriakulos.1690

  • Necromancer – Minion Masters are a bit op in sPvP, again due to constant Protection and Regeneration.

Uh… what MM build has constant protection? You have 0 access to protection in MM builds except through runes.

Yeah, who do I need to talk to to get some of that constant protection on my Necro?

Attrition – A pretty name for taking longer than anyone else to kill something.

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Posted by: DeWolfe.2174

DeWolfe.2174

I don’t mind bunker builds which result in a no one loses outcome. If I were to add anything, it’s that power creep is still an issue. A lot of which does come from boons. Strength Runes are certainly one cause of it now. If it was easy to strip might stacks, I’d say otherwise.

An Ele’s “Diamond Skin” is pretty messed up trait and it should be reworked. Maybe only active while sitting in Earth or something else.

PU Mesmer builds really should go bye bye. Make a Mesmer choose either PU or clones on Dodge traits, not both. Even with having several Mesmer’s I’ve never went down that dark path of cheesy.

[AwM] of Jade Quarry.

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Posted by: Cogbyrn.7283

Cogbyrn.7283

Boon spam, in my opinion, opens the door for a boon strip counter-meta. I don’t even really see this as a bad thing, personally.

  • Necromancer – Minion Masters are a bit op in sPvP, again due to constant Protection and Regeneration.

Uh… what MM build has constant protection? You have 0 access to protection in MM builds except through runes.

I had the heartiest chuckle, and a couple of tra-la-las, at this response, probably because I was distracted and assumed he meant Spectral Armor + Spectral Wall without considering that he also said Minion Master. I guess my Crunchberries didn’t wake me up as much as I thought.

Alduin Nightsong, 80 Human Necro
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”

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Posted by: ArmageddonAsh.6430

ArmageddonAsh.6430

An Ele’s “Diamond Skin” is pretty messed up trait and it should be reworked. Maybe only active while sitting in Earth or something else.

I think it is fine, to me it was added to try and make Condition builds go more balanced/hybrid and STOP relying 100% on the conditions. In a hybrid build Diamond Skin is pretty much useless.

if your build can’t deal around 2,000 direct damage then you should NOT win a fight. If you rely on conditions the whole time and having easy access to conditions and just spam conditions on to a target you should not win.

Diamond Skin counters my build. I am fine with that. Builds NEED to have a counter so you have to think how to be countered and how to counter other people. To try and counter Diamond Skin i am looking at what changes i could make to my build.

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Posted by: phaeris.7604

phaeris.7604

I love diamond skin. It punishes those who choose to go cheesy all out condi builds hoping to 1 button their foe to death.

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Posted by: ArmageddonAsh.6430

ArmageddonAsh.6430

I love diamond skin. It punishes those who choose to go cheesy all out condi builds hoping to 1 button their foe to death.

Exactly. The moment they go Hybrid it becomes a different story and that is the whole point of the trait. To punish those that use such builds that rely on nothing but conditions.

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Posted by: Nikkinella.8254

Nikkinella.8254

^Go to one of those dueling servers in spvp as a diamond skin ele where the minimum bet is 50g. Because of the fact that conditions are so insanely overpowered, you will NEVER face anything except condition bunkers in those servers. It’s all p/d cheese thieves, pu mesmers, condi spam engis, necros, and rarely condi guardian. Diamond skin is a good way to make a few 100g in a day till the brainless scrubs stop spamming 1 long enough to figure out why they cant hurt you, then its time to leave cuz a regular power build stands no chance against that cheese.

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Posted by: Loco.4561

Loco.4561

I actually laughed out loud, properly when I read this:

“Rangers – The perma-evade spam builds with constant Protection and Regeneration.”

Mashup Bootleg ~ WvW Mesmer
Cyrus Glitch – sPvP/tPvP Mesmer
Doctor Loki – sPvP/tPvP/WvW Power Necro

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Posted by: Dee Jay.2460

Dee Jay.2460

Yeah look you can redicul me for not being an expert on ALL class mechanics. But that’s besides the point.

This isn’t about class A being too good or class B needing a nerf, it’s about Protection especially and (to a lesser extent) Regeneration and Vigor being too abundant considering their relative power.

Guardians are the tip of the ice-berg when it comes to this issue since boon-rolling is a core mechanic they rely on. But with Guardians making up such a huge portion of the organized WvW zerg population and having by far the highest win-% of all classes in SoloQ I think there’s a good basis for balance concerns.

Maybe ANet could introduce a mechanic that allowed Guardians to maintain Boons on themselves as much as they do now, but reduce the number and/or duration of boons shared with allies.

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Posted by: oZii.2864

oZii.2864

Those boons are mostly tied to defensive lines for many classes. How else do you augment defense besides raw vitality and toughness? Damage gets traits to augment damage that aren’t just raw power and defense gets that the augmentation also.

Just seems like a difference in playstyle philosophy you like damage others like tanking. Give me a damage modifier in arcana and I might take it over elemental attunement. I don’t see guards rolling in protection it’s 2 shouts and hammer, and virtues 1 if you even see that setup and that means they went 6 in the vitality line and 1 in virtues at least and are confined to staying in hammers symbol.

Offense > defense that’s why there is protection, vigor, regen. If everyone played on only the extremes of full offense and full defense then offense kills defense.

In other words if 2 enemies have 2500 power and 2 others are stacking protection then only 1 protection is applied but any overlapping damage from the group with 2500 compliment each other. You can focus fire someone but only focus heal someone to keep them alive since you can’t take reduce damage to 0 through stats. Offense can climb far higher then defense.

[Good Fights]Sinndicate{Ele}Sinactic{Engineer}
Sinnastor{Warrior}Sinnacle{Mesmer}Sintacs
{Thief}

(edited by oZii.2864)

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Posted by: Bhawb.7408

Bhawb.7408

Yeah look you can redicul me for not being an expert on ALL class mechanics. But that’s besides the point.

No, it is totally the point. If you say a mechanic should be nerfed because it has 100% uptime super easily, but in reality it only gets that uptime in very rare situations with massive defensive investment, the entire basis of your argument is false and misleading.

You listed a bunch of builds that don’t at all have what you suggested. If you are still sticking to the point that these are too strong, present actual viable builds that showcase that.

But of Corpse – Watch us on YouTube
My PvP Minion Build

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Posted by: pierwola.9602

pierwola.9602

Maybe ANet could introduce a mechanic that allowed Guardians to maintain Boons on themselves as much as they do now, but reduce the number and/or duration of boons shared with allies.

IMO they should limit most of the boon/condi cleans (AoE) skills to party member only.

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Posted by: Jason.9643

Jason.9643

i wish what OP says is true. if every profession has an OP build – then isnt that balance already??

obviously not for eles while useful, not even slightly close to OP.

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Posted by: Carighan.6758

Carighan.6758

obviously not for eles while useful, not even slightly close to OP.

Right.

@OP
I agree that the spammability is meh. But more so because it devalues the individual application. IMO. If I see someone with Fury, I should be afraid of their burst potential while under the effect of that buff. In return, I should know that they can’t have it up often, so removing it or avoiding them for a few seconds gets me around them.
Likewise, if someone has Swiftness, they should be really difficult to catch. Again, in return I should know that 95% of the time, they’re no faster than I am.

So what I’d do:

  • Substantially reduce the availability of all conditions and all boons.
  • Substantially improve the effects and raw power of all conditions and all boons.
  • Remove virtually all condition- and boon-cleansing. Remaining effects are utility or elite skills specifically targeted at doing that (not doing anything else), and they’re all single target (though some can be used on a friendly single target).
  • Remove Precision as a gear stat. Use crit-chance as a measure of class- and skill-balance. Base chance to crit is 5%, some classes have 10% more, some skills have 5%-25% more crit chance built-in. This promotes Fury, a lot, as your main source of crits. You can gain some from the trait line, but it’s effect is reduced at 9% total if you go 6 points into it.
  • Change Ferocity to be much stronger, now that we don’t crit 100% of the time any more. Someone who stacks Ferocity should hit like a freight train when they crit. Crits need to feel meaningful.
  • In the absence of Precision on gear, add the class-stats (like Guile, Intelligence and Empathy and so on) on gear. These are transparent, what appears to be Guile for a Mesmer is Hunger for a Necro and Intelligence for an Ele.
The strength of heart to face oneself has been made manifest. The persona Carighan has appeared.

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Posted by: Rym.1469

Rym.1469

  • Necromancer – Minion Masters are a bit op in sPvP, again due to constant Protection and Regeneration.

Uh… what MM build has constant protection? You have 0 access to protection in MM builds except through runes.

Constant regeneration and protection? Why would you camp with a staff as a necro? Because if you switch weapon, your perma-regen says goodbye.

And protection?

Tired of people who haven’t even tried playing a Necro and tell us how OP perma blind/minion/condispam/2nd health/fear/amazing SoS are.

[rude]Antagonistka – Revenant, EU.
[SALT]Natchniony – Necromancer, EU.
Streams: http://www.twitch.tv/rym144

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Posted by: Carighan.6758

Carighan.6758

Fear the dreaded 6/6/6/6/6 Staff / Axe / Dagger / Focus / Warhorn / Scepter Necro build with 5 minions and spammed Wells.

The strength of heart to face oneself has been made manifest. The persona Carighan has appeared.