Buffing warrior diversity

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Posted by: Cygnus.6903

Cygnus.6903

Hi all.

I express my views in this topic. I also speak solely of PvP and small scale WvW, though I imagine many similarities to PvE.

Wall of text incoming. tl;dr at the end.

There is, IMO, a single trait that defines the gw2 warrior. It is a trait that I feel I must implement on every build I use, for various reasons. One of them being the viability of the build, another being to increase the joy I get out of playing warrior.

The trait I am talking about is, off course, Fast Hands. This trait allows the warrior to weapon swap every 5 seconds instead of 10.

Even more then Cleansing Ire does fast hands define wether or not a warrior build is good, or as good as it can be. For those less acquainted with warrior, you can compare it to what S/D means for a S/D engie or Deceptive Evasion for a shatter mesmer. The difference being that Fast Hands is in fact that important to any and all warrior builds possible.

Now, to continue comparing classes, which I know is usually….frowned upon, let’s compare warrior skills to other classes. Or, better yet, the amount of skills available to warrior. Like most other classes, barring Elementalist and Engineer, warrior has two weapon sets available, totalling 10 different skills. Add healing, utility and elite, and you have 15 skills at any given time (ignoring cooldowns). Off course, warrior can also use a maximum of two different burst skills. All in all, 17 skills can be available to the warrior during combat. I am not considering transformations, because the warrior has no viable transform elite.

This is less then all other classes.

Thieves have initiative, giving them greater freedom in selecting skills. Also, steal can give you 8 different abilities. A good thief will choose which opponent to steal from.
Necro’s have deathshroud, giving them another 5 skills.
Guardians have three virtues (making them the second worst behind warriors).
Rangers have pet skills.
Mesmers have shatter skills.
Elementalists and engineers obviously have the most skills of all.

Now, I am not trying to argue here that warrior is inferior or crying to nerf the amount of skills of other classes. On the contrary, I think those skills and options are what define other classes. The thing is, I feel this trait defines warrior in that same way, yet I have to sacrifice 3 trait points for it.

You could call us lucky, as Fast Hands is only a Master Minor trait in the Discipline traitline, meaning a warrior has to spend a mere 3 points in that line to get it. Rather look at it this way; the warrior loses 3 trait points before even starting the build.

tl;dr Simple suggestion inbound.

Make Fast Hands part of the warrior class design, so that the warrior can swap every 5 seconds by default.

What this will accomplish is warriors will be able to invest into whichever traitline they want, instead of being forced to either make a build with 11 trait points or losing the best trait we have.

Another option is to make Fast Hands the Adept Minor trait in Discipline. This won’t be as good, but will be a serious improvement towards diversity.

Thoughts?

I only state my opinion unless stated otherwise.
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Posted by: Atherakhia.4086

Atherakhia.4086

Absolutely not.

Fast Hands is an insanely powerful trait and you should consider yourself fortunate it’s so low in the tree to even allow the diversity you have in the first place.

Despite where Cleansing Ire (the only truly mandatory Warrior trait) and Fast Hands are, the Warrior class already has more build diveristy than many other classes. On top of this, the Warrior class is one of the most vital classes to this entire game.

There is absolutely nothing the Warrior class needs at this point that shouldn’t also come with rather substantial nerfs in exchange.

And yes, I play a Warrior.

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Posted by: phaeris.7604

phaeris.7604

As above said, you should be happy the best essential traits all fall into two lines.

As for fast hands?

That should be a grandmaster trait for how good it is.

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Posted by: NinjaEd.3946

NinjaEd.3946

I’d be all for more diversity, assuming warrior wasn’t so far ahead to begin with. If anet would stop shaving their favorite class and treat it like a real balance change should, I doubt we would see even half the complaints against warriors that we do now. Ya’ll can blame anet’s inability to let go on that.

They only slapped the community in the face by naming the warrior trainer in HoTM Hamflr the Bowyer. It would be funny if hambow was a joke…..

“I’m waiting for the staff to get off their lunch
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Posted by: Harper.4173

Harper.4173

Absolutely not.

Fast Hands is an insanely powerful trait and you should consider yourself fortunate it’s so low in the tree to even allow the diversity you have in the first place.

Despite where Cleansing Ire (the only truly mandatory Warrior trait) and Fast Hands are, the Warrior class already has more build diveristy than many other classes. On top of this, the Warrior class is one of the most vital classes to this entire game.

There is absolutely nothing the Warrior class needs at this point that shouldn’t also come with rather substantial nerfs in exchange.

And yes, I play a Warrior.

Saying you play Warrior in order to validate your point of view is the same way I should be calling out " thief is op and very strong " and should be taken seriously because I have a level 80 thief.

What class do you main?

If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”

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Posted by: EverythingEnds.4261

EverythingEnds.4261

I totally support this.

But only if they also make also deceptive evasion, illusionists celerity and maybe aswell illusionary persona part of the Mesmers class design.

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Posted by: dancingmonkey.4902

dancingmonkey.4902

To suggest a ridiculously over powered buff to an already OP profession, then claim it is build diversity, really does not promote a healthy balance discussion in any form.

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Posted by: NevirSayDie.6235

NevirSayDie.6235

The OP has a point—fast hands is so mandatory it’s not even funny.

However, the correct response to mandatory traits is to nerf them, not make them free. I’d say change fast hands to 7 seconds. Actually, weapon swap cooldown would have been a cool warrior profession attribute rather than trait, but too late for that now.

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Posted by: Roe.3679

Roe.3679

You aren’t forced to take it. You take it because its good. Mesmers aren’t forced to take deceptive evasion, they do because it’s a good trait. Condimancers aren’t required to take terror, but they do because it’s a good trait. Same for warriors and fast hands. You perceive it as being forced to take it because its a good trait that you want and nothing is a better option, but you are free to use whatever trait setup you like.

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Posted by: Terrahero.9358

Terrahero.9358

Every profession has traits that are great for a certain build, or several builds. So great infact they feel mandatory, and you just dont play without that trait in your build.

If we made all these traits baseline then all your left with is traits you dont care about because theyre all bad. And traits themselves have only a minor impact in your build because all the great stuff that was previously a trait is now baseline.

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Posted by: NinjaEd.3946

NinjaEd.3946

If the goal here is diversity it would behoove you all to talk about buffing the traits that no one takes, vs discussing the traits that are worth taking and making them a core mechanic. Can you imagine how horrible balance would become if the stapled traits became core mechanics of every profession? (ranger would still probably fall behind ><)

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Posted by: Swim.6830

Swim.6830

You should change the title of the thread. It’s not about buffing diversity but improving diversity in builds. Warrior as a class is quite diverse as it is with being able to do a lot all at once.

And you think Warrior is bad? Try playing Ele…

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Posted by: GSSBlunaspike.4153

GSSBlunaspike.4153

Absolutely not.

Fast Hands is an insanely powerful trait and you should consider yourself fortunate it’s so low in the tree to even allow the diversity you have in the first place.

Despite where Cleansing Ire (the only truly mandatory Warrior trait) and Fast Hands are, the Warrior class already has more build diveristy than many other classes. On top of this, the Warrior class is one of the most vital classes to this entire game.

There is absolutely nothing the Warrior class needs at this point that shouldn’t also come with rather substantial nerfs in exchange.

And yes, I play a Warrior.

Also as a warrior I agree, however there is a problem.

As above said, you should be happy the best essential traits all fall into two lines.

That right there says the problem. Why is it that we need to have certain traits in order to be effective. That’s what I think the OP wants addressed. I don’t think he means to inadvertently buff the class, because that would be silly. Right now warriors are pretty balanced. Having said that people have to admit that it’s rather silly to have mandatory traits just to be effective.

Maybe they could add some kind of trade off to switching weapons. They could make the baseline time at 5 seconds, however doing it would reduce your adrenaline by 50% of whatever it is at. Then at 6 seconds it would reduce it by 40% so that at 10 seconds there is no penalty. Then a warrior could choose if they want to take that penalty or not. They could leave the trait in so that you can swap at 5seconds with no penalty.

I’m sure that’s not a big enough penalty for some people, and I would rather Anet just address the issue. Btw this isn’t just a warrior thing either. There are a few professions that have mandatory traits, and it’s wrong to do that. You might as well just go ahead and subtract those trait points and just give them to the profession base line. I know someone will say “you don’t have to take them”, and that’s true. You also don’t have to use a weapon in combat, you could rely on your damaging utility skills. Just because you have a choice doesn’t mean it’s viable.

And you think Warrior is bad? Try playing Eleā€¦

If you mean skill wise I think Ele is probably the most diverse out of all professions. They are capable of doing so much at once, having an effective 4 weapon slots. If you meant trait wise, yeah they are about the same/little worse as warriors.

edit
Including screenshot of my characters, because someone is going to go “oh you don’t think warriors need this because you don’t really have one”, or someone will go “oh you think something should be fixed because that’s all you play”

Attachments:

(edited by GSSBlunaspike.4153)

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Posted by: Mattmatt.4962

Mattmatt.4962

3words:

Elementalist … Elemental Attunement.

-

funny topic by the way ^^

Tempest seems made careful not to make ele better in any way, since that would be bad

It does the job well :-)

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Posted by: Sykper.6583

Sykper.6583

The problem is not Fast Hands.

The problem is that Strength and Arms offer no offensive alternatives to Cleansing Ire, and that Disclipline has so much more synergy with the Defense tree.

As potent as weapon swapping is, if Strength and Arms actually gave Warriors some amount of power with alternative weapons then the current meta-warrior has, we would see some of those come out more.

Fast Hands is perfectly fine where it is.

Suicidal Warrior.
Putting Perspective on Zerg Sizes since 2012. Common Suffixes for 40+ include ~Zilla and ~Train
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Posted by: Cygnus.6903

Cygnus.6903

That right there says the problem. Why is it that we need to have certain traits in order to be effective. That’s what I think the OP wants addressed. I don’t think he means to inadvertently buff the class, because that would be silly. Right now warriors are pretty balanced. Having said that people have to admit that it’s rather silly to have mandatory traits just to be effective.

This.

Don’t take me for a condi-type fanboy who just wants his profession buffed. I actually feel warriors are in the best place they ever were, playing since beta. In fact, balancing this game around where warrior is would be a good start, even if warriors don’t do well in duels (which is what I like to do personally).

My initial post off course suggests a huge buff. I am aware of that. There would have to be a lot of balancing to be done. Perhaps some fruitful discussion can follow.

But you’ve said it right, warriors are in fact forced into two options; take Fast Hands, or be inferior. I dare anyone on this forum to suggest a build that can not be made that much better by swapping traits to get Fast Hands. Barring maybe the most niche of builds that only work in a dedicated group set-up. Again, I am not talking pve here.

Now, I hear a lot of people saying I should not complain, because I only have to spend 3 points. I should not complain, because if every trait that was good would be class mechanic, what would be the fun in building a character (where the hell did I even suggest this? This is just exaggerating my suggestion into ridiculousness). But the fact of the matter is, in my opinion off course, that Fast Hands defines the warrior class as a whole just as much if not more then anything else. this is where it differs from traits like Terror, Deceptive evasion, Static Discharge, you name ’m.

A different course of action would be to split up the trait. For instance, if the Adept minor would give you -2 seconds on swap and 2 adrenaline on swap, and the Master minor would give another -3 seconds 3 adrenaline. This would at least close the gap, and offer a bit more diversity without being a huge buff.

I only state my opinion unless stated otherwise.
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(edited by Cygnus.6903)

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Posted by: Zacchary.6183

Zacchary.6183

Warriors do not need anything. They are the overall best profession in this game solely because the profession is very forgiving. There are plenty of passives, plenty of useful skills that break stuns and a warrior can maintain a high dps while providing support for everyone (including themselves).

If anything, warriors need their abilities nerfed a little. However, buffing every other profession to their level would be nice too.

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Posted by: Cygnus.6903

Cygnus.6903

Warriors do not need anything. They are the overall best profession in this game solely because the profession is very forgiving. There are plenty of passives, plenty of useful skills that break stuns and a warrior can maintain a high dps while providing support for everyone (including themselves).

If anything, warriors need their abilities nerfed a little. However, buffing every other profession to their level would be nice too.

This is not the right topic for you.

I only state my opinion unless stated otherwise.
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Posted by: Ozzy Toxin.3074

Ozzy Toxin.3074

rough translation to the op… my warrior isn’t faceroll enough I want it to be easier and more of a burden to the game

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Posted by: Paavotar.3971

Paavotar.3971

OP has a point though. Fast hands is something I have in every build of mine. It’s the most consistent thing between them all. Not even Cleansing Ire is as consistent as Fast Hands. I can live without CI or other stuff, but FH is pretty mandatory in any build I have ever made.

I have tried builds without it, but they all felt sluggish and didn’t have that warrior feel.

Should it be core mechanic of warrior? No as it would be way too powerful like that. Should there be something in warriors core mechanic that actually promotes the statement that warrior is the master of the weapons apart from Burst skills? Yes.

Not sure if it would be too strong to have weapon swap in 8s CD by core in warrior and leave Fast Hands as is making the weapon swap into 5s CD.

A Pink scumbag of [FACE] and deep inside a [GuM]ster
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Posted by: Carighan.6758

Carighan.6758

Yeah, the game in general needs a fair few traits nerfed (and others buffed ofc).
There’s too many mandatory things, and not just because the alternative are too weak. Another example is a non-Phantasm Mesmer without DE. They exist, but calling them competitive is a bit of a stretch.

The strength of heart to face oneself has been made manifest. The persona Carighan has appeared.

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Posted by: frans.8092

frans.8092

The OP has a point—fast hands is so mandatory it’s not even funny.

However, the correct response to mandatory traits is to nerf them, not make them free. …

Pretty much says it all, if the trait is so good that it is mandatory it is probably too good.

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Posted by: Mattmatt.4962

Mattmatt.4962

that Fast Hands defines the warrior *class as a whole just as much if not more

High DPS doesnt define warrior ?
High armor doesnt define warrior ?
High HP pool doesnt define warrior ?
High mobility doesnt define warrior ?

You’re right, you need more OP things to define warrior, we might not actually know that it’s OP ^^

Once again:
Elementalist and elemental attunement

And i can extend: EVERY SINGLE class have minor trait that enhence their class abilities, but do they all have it as adept ? NO

Tempest seems made careful not to make ele better in any way, since that would be bad

It does the job well :-)

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Posted by: Cygnus.6903

Cygnus.6903

And i can extend: EVERY SINGLE class have minor trait that enhence their class abilities, but do they all have it as adept ? NO

I’ll ignore the rest of your sincere and contributing post, but I will correct you here. Fast hands is a master minor trait, not adept. Making it adept would help though, thanks for that.

Is every topic intended to discuss warrior improvements now just a catalyst for warrior QQ?

I only state my opinion unless stated otherwise.
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Posted by: Cygnus.6903

Cygnus.6903

Pretty much says it all, if the trait is so good that it is mandatory it is probably too good.

That is one interpretation. Another one is that without this trait, warrior is not viable.

Judging by what viable warrior builds are available in pvp/wvw, which do you think is correct?

I only state my opinion unless stated otherwise.
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Posted by: frans.8092

frans.8092

Pretty much says it all, if the trait is so good that it is mandatory it is probably too good.

That is one interpretation. Another one is that without this trait, warrior is not viable….

That seems a far stretch …

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Posted by: Cygnus.6903

Cygnus.6903

Pretty much says it all, if the trait is so good that it is mandatory it is probably too good.

That is one interpretation. Another one is that without this trait, warrior is not viable….

That seems a far stretch …

Then again, give me a viable build that is not improved by Fast Hands? This is not meant as an insult, I have just never seen nor encountered a viable warrior build that is better, or even equal, without it…

I only state my opinion unless stated otherwise.
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Posted by: Mattmatt.4962

Mattmatt.4962

And i can extend: EVERY SINGLE class have minor trait that enhence their class abilities, but do they all have it as adept ? NO

I’ll ignore the rest of your sincere and contributing post, but I will correct you here. Fast hands is a master minor trait, not adept. Making it adept would help though, thanks for that.

Why correcting me ? I’m saying that NO class have it in adept, so why warrior should have it in adept ? Or even for free like you’re asking for ?

By the way i’m not QQing about warrior, in 1V1 i crush warrior with my ele so dont worry. I’m just saying facts

Tempest seems made careful not to make ele better in any way, since that would be bad

It does the job well :-)

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Posted by: Cygnus.6903

Cygnus.6903

Why correcting me ? I’m saying that NO class have it in adept, so why warrior should have it in adept ? Or even for free like you’re asking for ?

By the way i’m not QQing about warrior, in 1V1 i crush warrior with my ele so dont worry. I’m just saying facts

High DPS doesnt define warrior ?
High armor doesnt define warrior ?
High HP pool doesnt define warrior ?
High mobility doesnt define warrior ?

You’re right, you need more OP things to define warrior, we might not actually know that it’s OP ^^

This is warrior QQ. I should not have to explain this to you. Try to contribute, really.

Your earlier comment could easily be interpreted as you thinking warriors actually do ‘have it in Adept’ (even though we are not talking about Adept, but about minor traits. Other classes actually do have defining Adept traits). Especially because of all the QQ you are doing. But I guess I was wrong.

So let me tempt you into saying something constructive; can you think of a build that is viable, nay, better without fast hands?

I only state my opinion unless stated otherwise.
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Posted by: MarauderShields.6830

MarauderShields.6830

Then again, give me a viable build that is not improved by Fast Hands? This is not meant as an insult, I have just never seen nor encountered a viable warrior build that is better, or even equal, without it…

Fast Hands is a strong and easily obtained trait. Simply because of that you will find no build that doesn’t use it. Other builds just seem unviable because the trait exists.
By your logic, Shadow’s Embrace should become part of the thief’s class mechanic. It is a really good trait that every stealth thief uses (because it’s basically the only condi clear). It is strong, sure. But would the thief become unviable if it wouldn’t exist? Surely not.

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Posted by: Mattmatt.4962

Mattmatt.4962

well adept minor though it was obvious.

then QQ is listing fact, ty for explanation :p
Well ok, but it was just to show you that “classe definition” isnt a good reason.

Well now lets compare fast hand and elemental attunement.

What does bring fast hand ? faster swap. but what does faster swap brings ? i’m looking at every weapon skill from the warrior, 80% are on 10sec CD or higher so it is really usefull ? I’ll tend to say yes, it is strongh but far from OP, it allows you to use you skill more when you want. As exemple: you just switched off from your shield, and you need your block very fast, indeed its usefull. But is there many weapon set up where you keep some of your spell ? Hambow is the best exemple of this: you spamm everything you got and then just swap, here fast hand is near useless.

On the other hand, we have a class that highly depends of his class mechanics, the elementalist (i dont think warrior class mechanic is waepon swap by the way) and that have to spend 20 (its even more than the warrior) into his class mechanic trait line to get something that is mandatory. Do you see any non 100% super glassy build running less than 20 arcana ? No, cause elementalist needs protection cause it doesnt have the armor neither the hp pool to survive without. Is the warrior viable without fast hand, yes, is the elementalist viable without elemental attunement, no.

I’m not arguing for elemental attunement to become class inherent. I just wanna show that if elementalist can do without, warrior should be very very… very able too ^^

But i give you reason about one thing: make all those trait class inherent would bring build diversity cause you wont be forced to spend point in mandatory things. (and maybe not thinking to it, cause ele will still go in arcana due to the attunements recharge rate (dev should understand that itsa bad features but its another subject) and warrior will still go in discipline for burst mastery)

But it would also (and especially) brings imbalance which is to avoid at all cost.
By the way, build diversity for warrior is pretty decent. If we take all aspect of the game, we can see builds with every single line maxed out which isnt the case for all other classes

Tempest seems made careful not to make ele better in any way, since that would be bad

It does the job well :-)

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Posted by: Cufufalating.8479

Cufufalating.8479

How can such a low level trait be limiting your build diversity…

Before the last patch, rangers had access to only one good Condition Removal and that was the a GM trait. THAT is what limiting build diversity looks like, because nearly every build from condi tank to BM to Power build took that traitline for that one trait.

This has since been fixed by giving us a new source on condition removal (in the form of a different GM trait), but that is what a seriously limiting trait is. Not some minor trait which you dont actually NEED its just nice to have.

Cufufalating – Ranger / Part-Time Mesmer
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(edited by Cufufalating.8479)

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Posted by: Terrahero.9358

Terrahero.9358

Pretty much says it all, if the trait is so good that it is mandatory it is probably too good.

That is one interpretation. Another one is that without this trait, warrior is not viable….

That seems a far stretch …

Then again, give me a viable build that is not improved by Fast Hands? This is not meant as an insult, I have just never seen nor encountered a viable warrior build that is better, or even equal, without it…

The same kitten builds you already have, but without taking Fast Hands.

There, ive given you a ton of builds for Warrior that are still perfectly viable without Fast Hands.
Sure a lot of builds will be weaker, but weaker doesnt mean unviable.

Its taken not because its a must to make a viable build, but because its so insanely good for its low cost. Yours is a luxery problem, its not that you cant make a build without Fast Hands you just dont want to make a build without Fast Hands.

(edited by Terrahero.9358)

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Posted by: Deimos Tel Arin.7391

Deimos Tel Arin.7391

fast hand is at a very good position since beta weekends and launch.
let’s leave it that way.
we do not fix what is not broken.

and i think some of you will know that i am mainly a casual warrior player.

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Posted by: NevirSayDie.6235

NevirSayDie.6235

Pretty much says it all, if the trait is so good that it is mandatory it is probably too good.

That is one interpretation. Another one is that without this trait, warrior is not viable.

Judging by what viable warrior builds are available in pvp/wvw, which do you think is correct?

Viable is a weird word, but the short answer is that warriors would of course be viable even after a small nerf to this trait. No one has said it should be removed, just increased to maybe seven seconds instead of five.

If you want diversity, all you have to do is nerf the things that are too good not to take.

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Posted by: bigmonto.4215

bigmonto.4215

I don’t agree with the OP. Every warrior uses Fast hand because it is that good. But in no way do you need it to be effective. Sometimes I run condition builds without it, it is not bad at all. Cleansing Ire on the other hand is, at least with the current condition meta.

I definitely main warrior.

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Posted by: caveman.5840

caveman.5840

it is a great class
but more diversity for war ?
is it not one of the most divers classes as is ?
i mean u do have a load of weapons to choose from XD

lol… @rsenal …. gets turned in to a kitten because it thinks it is a bad word lol

(edited by caveman.5840)

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Posted by: xFireize.6318

xFireize.6318

A trait so useful that it should be built-in..

Hmm.. do I need to be a Warrior to understand that logic? Serious question btw.

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Posted by: Swim.6830

Swim.6830

I say give Warrior fast hands by default to make them more diverse and as other diverse classes, reduce their base HP by 10 000… It’s a good deal!

Zwim Elementalist
Consigliere
The Dragoon Brotherhood