Guild Wars 2

Hey,

I came back to gw2 two months ago after a long break and i’ve been doing a lot of spvp/tpvp and there are BIG PROBLEMS to fix. Classes arent balanced AT ALL (hello i’m a necro i cant die and i do 265415005444 dmg every hit or with my conditions or with my lich elite skill or with my minions ) and most overpowered builds are the ones which do not require skill AT ALL.
Let’s give exemples : 1. Mesmer (my class) blackwater/phantasm build (or whatever build which asks not to shatter) is just about creating your illusions, putting some conditions and hiding. 2. Engineers just put their turrets, buff themselves, run around, put some mines when they want to, run around, put turrets,run around,run around,…. 3. Necros : Well, all their builds are op as hell… but lets talk about the most stupid one : minions. Use your skills to cast minions, take an armor which gives you a ssuppeerrr amount of armor and health and wait for minions to kill your foe in 2/3 hits. There is no fun in so “passive” builds.
Others builds i really hate : conditions builds. Ok, it’s fine if some people play condition builds and do ok but dont make them overpowered please, it’s so kittened to see a warrior with his bow putting tons of bleeds,torment,(fire) on you for something like 25sec without problem and resist to everything (toughness/vitality/conditions dmg). I was a great fan of gw1, gw2 has a great potential (cant wait for an extension cantha/elona…) but i’m soon going to leave if they don’t fix class balance in pvp….

Gratz to you if you read everything and sorry if i made some english mistakes,give your opinion cause i’ve the impression to be the only one to think this way…

Spoken like a true Bronze V player. Oh wait, wrong game. We don’t have leagues.

Every single one of the builds you mentioned may seem like it takes no skill, but it does. If you ran into a player that knows the build well enough and you just started PvP (which it sounds like, since you listed off such a variety of builds that only newbies fall to), you will get your face wrecked hard. This is not a case of the build being “too easy” or “OP”, but a case of where you got massively outplayed.

Class balance in this game is extremely good. There are a couple builds that are outliers on power (Hambow Warriors, celestial D/D eles, both of which are fueled primarily by Strength Runes right now) and some things that need fixing because they don’t work (Necromancer’s class mechanic rendering most of their Blood Magic traitline useless, for example), but the actual balance is very good.

“Every single one of the builds you mentioned may seem like it takes no skill, but it does.”
No it doesn’t. I tried the mesmer builds i mentionned and there was no difficulty to play them and went on a rampage. Necros using minions DOESNT require skill , i tried it. (And why are so many people running necro in spvp and so many ppl are complaining about necros?)

Sure, some of the builds some of you complain about can be played with limited skill. I guarantee you though, to actually win with those builds consistantly, absolutely requires skill.

I did not say they take much skill to pull off at the basic level, but they do still take skill. On some of those builds (especially MM necro), the skill cap is also quite low. On others, the skill floor is low, but the cap is high. Phantasm Mesmer builds may be simple to run at a basic level, but high-caliber players can turn them into monsters capable of wrecking just about anyone.

Regardless, they all take skill to execute properly and continuously win with. There really is no such thing as a “no skill” build.

…that’s like saying while class/build/character X is easy to use it can be srsly abused when played to the full extent.

I think you’re sort of missing the point… builds which are easy to use are too strong. The easier something is to use the less effective it should be at the higher end. This is why new players will use the noob tube in COD, but you wouldn’t ever see it in a tournament.

Gw2 on the other hand… you see easy to use builds just about everywhere (ex wars).

Aberrant.6749:

…that’s like saying while class/build/character X is easy to use it can be srsly abused when played to the full extent.

I think you’re sort of missing the point… builds which are easy to use are too strong. The easier something is to use the less effective it should be at the higher end. This is why new players will use the noob tube in COD, but you wouldn’t ever see it in a tournament.

Gw2 on the other hand… you see easy to use builds just about everywhere (ex wars).

Really now? Show me the Blackwater Mesmer builds in high-end PvP. Same thing with Minion Master necros, turret engies, and Beastmaster Rangers.

Having problems? Because they fit exactly the same paradigm as the “noob toob” in CoD. Easy to use, but not that effective against people that are actually skilled. Blackwater Mesmers are possibly the exception, but even that skill ceiling is comparatively low compared to other builds.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Aberrant.6749:

…that’s like saying while class/build/character X is easy to use it can be srsly abused when played to the full extent.

I think you’re sort of missing the point… builds which are easy to use are too strong. The easier something is to use the less effective it should be at the higher end. This is why new players will use the noob tube in COD, but you wouldn’t ever see it in a tournament.

Gw2 on the other hand… you see easy to use builds just about everywhere (ex wars).

Really now? Show me the Blackwater Mesmer builds in high-end PvP. Same thing with Minion Master necros, turret engies, and Beastmaster Rangers.

Having problems? Because they fit exactly the same paradigm as the “noob toob” in CoD. Easy to use, but not that effective against people that are actually skilled. Blackwater Mesmers are possibly the exception, but even that skill ceiling is comparatively low compared to other builds.

I like how you skipped over the part where I put in ex war to make a strawman argument. Brilliant.

Aberrant.6749:

I like how you skipped over the part where I put in ex war to make a strawman argument. Brilliant.

No Strawman involved. Learn your argumentative fallicies.

I also admitted that there were some builds that broke the mold. Hambow triple-stance Warriors are the only Warrior build I’m aware of that gives such a reward for such low risk. It can still very easily be played poorly, showing that there is, indeed, a decent skill floor to the build. It is highly effective and does not require as much skill as it probably should, but to say it is a “no skill” build is either a lie or blatant ignorance.

“A straw man, is a common type of argument and is an informal fallacy based on the misrepresentation of the original topic of argument. "

You heavily implied that I was saying those builds were… and then used them as an argument against what I was saying.

You’re also stuck on the word “no” when the OP obviously meant low (and I never made that claim of no skill either).

Seems like you’re just trying to avoid the root problem that too much rubbish is too effective for the skill required to use it due to ai/passive buffs and active playstyle nerfs.

Aberrant.6749:

“A straw man, is a common type of argument and is an informal fallacy based on the misrepresentation of the original topic of argument. "

You heavily implied that I was saying those builds were… and then used them as an argument against what I was saying.

Well, when you quote me talking about those builds, then make an argument based on the quote and add on an example of your own, at what point did you cease referencing the same things I was?

You’re also stuck on the word “no” when the OP obviously meant low (and I never made that claim of no skill either).

Seems like you’re just trying to avoid the root problem that too much rubbish is too effective for the skill required to use it due to ai/passive buffs and active playstyle nerfs.

I’m saying the “root problem” doesn’t exist. Those builds are effective at the lower tiers, much like the “noob toob”. Better players quickly move on because those builds are only good at the lower tiers. Every build listed in the OP is easy to beat. The users of those builds can do things to increase the difficulty, but ultimately, they all have a low skill ceiling. All AI builds have a low skill ceiling because the player cannot directly control what their phantasms/minions/turrets are doing. The Phantasm builds have a higher skill ceiling only because they aren’t reliant on having so many utility skills locked up in it, so once their phantasms are all up (usually one weapon skill and one utility, or two weapon skills and no utilities), they can still do quite a bit. Minion Masters and Turret builds don’t have that option.

I didn’t quote you on the first post, put war as an example (and not the others)… so… wat? It’s ok, I’ll just think of it as a reading comprehension problem.

I still disagree that buffing ai etc. while nerfing more active stuffs was right and didn’t create a problem. Some of those easy to use types of builds you do see in higher ranked sPvP (warfests are the most common).

TL:DR “effective builds are boring and take no skill, fun builds = death”
and i completely agree.

As a Necro, I can tell you the MM build is a free kill for me. Maybe it’s because I play Necromancer and know how to fight one? Who knows. There are annoying builds to fight, but nothing is truely op.

As for no skill builds, just get out of HotJoin and low tier Soloqueue before you come here speaking of such no skill builds being in any way effective against anyone other than noobs.

Like people complaining of Lich Form. If only blocks/blinds/boon strip/reflections somehow worked on the Lich right? ……….oh wait.

Shaogin.2679:

Like people complaining of Lich Form. If only blocks/blinds/boon strip/reflections somehow worked on the Lich right? ……….oh wait.

So right… I mean, in this game people often cry before try. When something seems off, it’s : “Anet please nerf this and that, it’s OP” but I can assure these people that balance in Spvp, without being perfect (but again which online game is flawless ?), is pretty decent.

Sure, there are some classes a bit easier to handle than others, but basically, if you try to understand the mechanics of each class, it’s quite easy to figure out the strengths and weaknesses.

Guess what, I’ve seen bada*s Hambow wars along the road but I’ve also (most certainly) seen so many bad ones, who thought “Yeah, I’ll smok’em all with that OP build” but did not understand a thing about what actually made the build so strong.
And that statement goes for almost every OP classes/builds people have made a fuss about.

(This post was by no mean targeting the opening post).

OP, you literally called out 4 classes with some specific builds to be over-the-top. It doesnt even make sense, if these classes clash with each other, who wins lol? Since all of them are “OP”. Anyway, I am going to tell you the same thing each person posting on this forums should actually do. Take the class you complain about, go PvP (if thats where you coming from), play 50 games with the said build/class, and THEN come around posting. Your opinion is biased, based on no personal exp and leads nowhere.

#La Lame never more fitting a name. If ALL necro build was so xtremely OP how come we never see them in Tourney Teams that make it ? Shouldnt every hardcore tPvP team have 1 or even more of these in-vunerable beasts of a class ?

even the 1 specc I agree with u on is MM, wich is OP and tbh xtremely boring wich most longtime Necs actually shun and yet even MM is a rareity in tPvP teams that makes all the way. My suggestion is for you to actually make some valid points not just qq about a random person that just out-skilled you.

ps: lay of the Mushrooms

La Lame De Vie.8460:

I tried the mesmer builds i mentionned and there was no difficulty to play them and went on a rampage.

Oh, and how useful where you for all your 1v1 defensive power?
The reason those PU builds are rather balanced is that for how strong they can be in 1v1 if pressed into the defence, they are extremely weak when it comes to contributing to a fight.

La Lame De Vie.8460:

Necros using minions DOESNT require skill , i tried it. (And why are so many people running necro in spvp and so many ppl are complaining about necros?)

Like any pet build, the upside is: if you play meh, you still have ok power.
Like any pet build, the downside is: if you play awesome, you still have ok power.

None of those feels… special, in any way. Maybe I have to pull the “in my days” / “I’m older than you!” card here, but GW2 actually feels pretty balanced. WoW is more balanced, but they did something I don’t like being done to MMOs to facilitate that, they reduced their number of effective classes substantially.
As you do that, naturally balance increases as smaller and smaller scale combat can even out the class individualities (this is what is commonly called “loss of class/spec identity”, and is the downside of the approach).

GW2 has a lot of effective classes. A few hundreds I’d wager, and that’s before you look at group setups. Too many of these have too few distinct downsides but also too few distinct upsides, yes. But still, overall they balance ok-ish because the final encounter is always going to be imbalanced, yet context wins out over any class setup.

Holy kitten. People seriously have a screwed view on what “skill” is.
All those builds mentioned take some amount of skill, that is true. But those skills can be easily learned within 3-7 days of playing with that class. If that is to you indicates that a build requires skill, then you simply haven’t played anything that requires actual skill.
And I’m not even specifically talking about computer-games here, I’m talking about everything.
The skill cap in this game is so ridiculously low, that it’s impossible to distinguish skill between players. A dude that played MM-Necro for 3 days (assuming he is not a complete kitten), will be just as deadly as a guy that has been playing Necro for 2 years.
But well. People have been saying this since the first few months of gw2, and nothing has happened. In fact, I believe the game has only gotten a lowered skill-cap because conditions builds require slightly less skills than power-builds. And for all those newfags out there, yes, there once was a power-meta.
Don’t bother aiming a response directly at me, there is a pretty good chance I won’t see it, I check this forum once every two months.
Just thought I wanted to clear things up.

A dude that plays MM necro for 3 days will be just as easy to kill as any other MM necro out there. Anyone who knows what the are doing will easily take a MM down. Can’t take a guy serious that comes in talking about the definition of skill then goes on the usual MM op wagon. Too many HotJoin heroes with opinions being stated as facts in here.

I play pvp allot of the time and i fully agree with all the OPs statements, so much that ive made several threads talking about this ‘balance’ meta.

there is reall balance to be achieved but the cookie cutter builds you see everyone use/abuse should get nerfed and the classes wich dont get played should get buffed THATs how you balance a game. not by totally revising every class from the core or do drastic stuff like remove critical damage, for instance people will always find something else to do there meta-bidding untill there is some actuall delicate balance, the problem is is that the game should be updated every week for small tweaks. not once every 3 months with an entire new range of skills and new meta so people can explore what the next overpowered meta is.

I dont understand why anet isnt doing this as of now, (no balance team?)
its not hard to see the few skills that are overpowered in this meta the only thing required is a dedicated eye on it and actually acting on seeing the meta evolve too drasticly.

I mean by now healing signet has been one of the easiest skills for warriors to never die what about tweaking that skill every week untill its at its right spot? Do this with all the skills in such a delicate fashion so eventually you will have true balance. instead of every season a new meta. (first it was dps, now its condition, and its slowly turning into bunkering because thats what works vs the meta atm)

There are no reall legit anti meta builds that work in any stage in the game atm.
(you go full blown anti condi and you instantly do no damage, no support, nothing to really shine through, except maybe make yourself more sturdy so you can atleast turtle and stay alive versus everything. Tada bunker meta. But is it good for the game and fun?