Guild Wars 2

Ok let me get this straight.

They make us take a month (more of less) to make a complete set, They replace our MF stat with nothing in one update and now they gut our critical hit percentage by almost 20%….

Thanks for making me waste the time to try and have a few defensive stats that complement my damage ANet?!?

BTW I want a full refund for my 2 sets of celestial (different runes), 3 ascended celestial weapons and 2 trinkets. If this change was meant to hurt the zerger builds it seems to me that you are punishing the wrong crowd!!

An answer from ANET, just to let us know that they didn’t forget celestials, will be appreciated

An answer from ANet would definitely be appreciated whether or not they have a solution to our concern. Just something to let us know that they acknowledge our serious concern.

Celestial has already received enough crap from the vocal berserker elitist crowd on various forums. Given that these changes are meant to be part of a balancing of the Berserker meta but impact those who run Celestial far more this ends up being a double kick in the nuts for us.

Fixes don’t even necessarily need to come in the form of evening out the amount of crit damage lost. I’d be fine with the lower crit damage if we see, as others have suggested, a small bonus to boon/condition duration. Considering Celestial is meant to be the average of all stats and some sets give bonus duration it would make quite a bit of sense.

If anything as far as balancing goes I don’t think the givers line gives enough boon duration to make it seriously viable. 1% per piece of armor doesn’t amount to much to sacrifice a whole stat for. A whole set of givers providing 15-20% boon duration would be more sensible. Meanwhile a full celestial set providing 10% or so would also make up for the sacrifice in crit damage.

I don’t see the point of nerf crit dam at all….. What the hell is Anet thinking?

For PVE: what’s the meta after the nerf? hehe you guess it Zerker…. it just making boss kill 10% slower for full zerker groups. I don’t run zerker, never had any problem to begin with.

For WvW: power damage build will completely get destroyed by conditional bunker. The only option for me here is to respect regear to conditional bunker. This means I am done.

For pvp no change.

I can understand you don’t want to use a % stats, but what’s the point of the nerf? Tell us Anet. Your balance team really sucks.

Columbo.5924:

Thing is, they would need to increase the total stats in order to make celestial a viable option again – from a stat ratio of 5/8 to about 6/8 (you can find the math in this thread). They are not going to do that because of power creep and stuff, so the celestial owners will get the shaft.

If that’s what it takes, then so be it! It’s not powercreep when you buff something weak to the level of the other choices.

stof.9341:

Columbo.5924:

Thing is, they would need to increase the total stats in order to make celestial a viable option again – from a stat ratio of 5/8 to about 6/8 (you can find the math in this thread). They are not going to do that because of power creep and stuff, so the celestial owners will get the shaft.

If that’s what it takes, then so be it! It’s not powercreep when you buff something weak to the level of the other choices.

The problem is, that anet does not acknowledge that celestial is inherently weak (and the designer that understood this, and actually gave the armor and weapons those high crit dmg values, has obviously been fired). I the eyes of anet, celestial is actually very strong because it has more stats than any other gear. They do not seem to acknowledge that these stats scale differently. They also seem to be oblivious about the fact that only a very limited number of classes/builds can actually profit from this gear. And even then it does take specific gameplay to make use of it. Actually, they would only need to look at the amount of viable PvP builds that use celestial jewels to find that out. But if you look at game dynamics from that close you would also see all those broken orr/temple events, mesmer skills, engineer turret skills, awful pet AI, skillpoints, clipping armors, WvW tower glitches and <ArgumentOutOfRangeException> other issues.

What i want to say is: I do NOT think they will realize that there is a problem with celestial, and even if they do, it will be isssue #7586745 on the list.

Exedore.6320:

*Note: Back was omitted because there is no celestial back item.

mmh…

I wouldn’t panic just yet. Let’s wait till the patch comes and see how anet resolved that issue. I’m sure they wouldn’t forget about you.

haviz.1340:

I wouldn’t panic just yet. Let’s wait till the patch comes and see how anet resolved that issue. I’m sure they wouldn’t forget about you.

Sorry, couldn’t resist….

An answer from Anet would be appreciated indeed. We’ve invested dozens of hours charging crystal and hundreds of gold (including real money from gems to gold conversion) crafting celestial and ascended celestial items.

How about some consideration for those of us that are worried that these investment might have been destined to be a waste?

2 Possible Solutions:

Celestial has atm about 54% of the stats of a normal item.

since it has no “main” stat lets compare a Soldier Ring ( 103 Power, 68 Toughness, 68 Vitality ) with a Celestial Ring ( + 43 to all stats ) .
For the Soldier-Ring the Average Stat is ( 103+68+68 ) /3 = 79,6, Lets say 79 ( rounded down ).
As Celestial has 43 to all, thats 43/79 = 0,54 = 54% compared to the Soldier Ring
A possible Solution would be to increase the percentage to something like 60%

Stats for the Ring would be then +47 to all stats ( 60% ). That would be something like 3-4% Critdamage, but since Celestial would gain some more power, that could make up a bit for the loss in crit.

- – - – -

Another already mentioned Solution would be to give Celestial Equip some new Stats. We have 2 Weapons, 6 Armour, and 6 Juwelry Items.
Why not give Onehanded-Weapons +1% Condition Duration and +1% Boonduration.
2-handed Weapons would gain 2% Duration.
Each Armorpiece gets 1% Condition and Boonduration
Backpiece gets 2% Condition and Boonduration (cause its really expensive. You have to craft it. Requires about like 200 Gold)
And the Rest of the jewelry gets 1% Condition and Boonduration
And if we ad that up, we get +15% Conditionduration and +15% Boonduration

^I’d prefer the first solution. Boon duration and condition duration are, at best, tertiary stats that require large investments to be noticeable. A small increase to more tangible stats would be better for the gear set.

Columbo.5924:

Always remember the old saying:

Shame on you if you fool me once
Shame on ME if you fool me twice

Don’t get fooled twice guys. Celestial is inherently a lot more prone to nerfs, because it contains all stats. It doesn’t matter which stat gets nerfed – with all stats gear you are always affected. Let’s assume the nerf condition damage next month – celestial gets the shaft, healing scaling reduced? celestial gets the shaft… well you get the picture.

Well, at least you now got some exotics/ascended items to salvage to get you started on the next dark matter grind for some new ascended items…

This is the first time for many I’m sure since quite a lot of people didn’t use celestial with the intention of using magic find. If anet doesn’t address this properly, there won’t even be a chance for a me to be fooled twice since I’m planning to just drop this game even with my necro in full ascendeds.

I have already stop playing. Depends on what Anet decides, I might come back.

Here is the kicker, I used 3 celestial pieces to maximize my crit dam in WvW, now that it will be nerf so that conditional bunker is the only viable option. Even if they kept the crit dam the same for celestials it won’t matter.

Seriously Anet, what the hell is the point of nerfing crit dam? For pve? Its still the zerker meta you know. You just want people to clear dungeons slower? at the cost of what? completely destroy WvW? Good job Anet.

the issue is nerfing to the ground the most expensive set that is not only situational but not even a dps set…..

If they once again forget celestial it only means all the cdi is damage control and nothing more…

People Always warn them of the huge mistake thier short sighted “balancing” introduce everytime and they never listen nor answer….after months when people start leaving the game they come up with “we are looking into the issue”……

I really don’t get why they want to nerf celestial, it has nothing to do with max zerker/dps meta in dungeons, its mostly used on www to balance out vitality/toughness/critical damage in builds. Everyone who has celestial is basically nerfed twice, by critical damage nerf and celestial nerf – this is really not fair. Dear Arena.net why celestial after patch cant have: 147+ to all stats / + 285 ferocity so celestial owners will be nerf like all criticical damage users?

Holden.9273:

I really don’t get why they want to nerf celestial, it has nothing to do with max zerker/dps meta in dungeons, its mostly used on www to balance out vitality/toughness/critical damage in builds. Everyone who has celestial is basically nerfed twice, by critical damage nerf and celestial nerf – this is really not fair. Dear Arena.net why celestial after patch cant have: 147+ to all stats / + 285 ferocity so celestial owners will be nerf like all criticical damage users?

They don’t want to nerf celestial; it will just be a casualty of war as ANet rarely sees what their whack-a-mole style balance will inflict on the rest of the game.

Dev1 – “Oh, Zerker doing to much DPS. Zerker=CritDMG amirite? Nerf CritDMG!”
Dev2 – “Good job man, easy fix!”

Anet, We need an answer.

If you want to nerf celestial? That’s fine, but allow us to reelect a different stat. Actually better yet, just remove celestial all together in the game. With the crit damage nerf, no one in their right mind is going to use this crap.

You have to realize all this is due to Ascended armor being so time + resource intensive. With Exotics, I’ll just buy another set.

It is ironic that people stop playing because they don’t want to grind more in a supposedly no-grinding MMO. This is when you know you failed Anet.

bigmonto.4215:

Anet, We need an answer.

If you want to nerf celestial? That’s fine, but allow us to reelect a different stat. Actually better yet, just remove celestial all together in the game. With the crit damage nerf, no one in their right mind is going to use this crap.

You have to realize all this is due to Ascended armor being so time + resource intensive. With Exotics, I’ll just buy another set.

This is exactly the point. I have much faith in ArenaNet, but they’re still human and they’re not perfect. We’re just trying to help them adress everything. And all we wanna hear from them is ‘we did consider that and we decided to (or not) to adress it for reason x (reason being optional)’.

Aveneo.2068:

They don’t want to nerf celestial; it will just be a casualty of war as ANet rarely sees what their whack-a-mole style balance will inflict on the rest of the game.

Dev1 – “Oh, Zerker doing to much DPS. Zerker=CritDMG amirite? Nerf CritDMG!”
Dev2 – “Good job man, easy fix!”

On livestream they said that all the stats on celestial will be equal – in other words – we will nerf it to the ground ;p

And yeah – this critical damage change is really stupid, they could get the same effect by just changing critical hit formula. High dps builds has two two things – high critical chance (50%+) and high critical damage (100%), so all you need to do in order to nerf zerk dungeons builds is to lover the modifier of 50% critical chance. This change would not have any effect on mixed gear www builds, because they usually have 3x% critical chance.

bigmonto.4215:

Anet, We need an answer.

If you want to nerf celestial? That’s fine, but allow us to reelect a different stat. Actually better yet, just remove celestial all together in the game. With the crit damage nerf, no one in their right mind is going to use this crap.

You have to realize all this is due to Ascended armor being so time + resource intensive. With Exotics, I’ll just buy another set.

It is ironic that people stop playing because they don’t want to grind more in a supposedly no-grinding MMO. This is when you know you failed Anet.

+1 I’ve been accumulating charged quartz for the set, but stuff like this is a real let down. If anet does nerf the crit dmg on celestial, there is no reason to have it in the game anymore, just wasted data.

Don’t let this thread die, we still need an answer from the Dev

bigmonto.4215:

Don’t let this thread die, we still need an answer from the Dev

Usually when there is a very serious nerf the developers do not discuss it.
They didn’t answer any of the dozens of threads on the Ride The Lightning (100% cd increase and range decrease) and Mist form utility nerf, because those had huge impact on the class gameplay. They broke both mobility with daggers and utility combos in mist form for ele, in 1 single patch!

If celestial gear becomes crap and we end up having wasted dozens of hours and hundreds of gold for it you can bet they will stay quiet about it.

Honestly, i really hope they don’t nerf crit damage on celestial only to add something useless like condi/boon duration. especially if it’ll just end up being 1-2% per piece.

we lose something like 17% of our current dps when celestial gets nerfed, how exactly does anyone think 20% boon or condi duration will even come close to helping with that?

the only really viable ways they have to fix this for celestial are to increase the base stats all around by 10%, or have more ferocity than the other stats.

otherwise you take an already sub-par stat combination and you kitten all over it =/. No one even uses celestial outside of a might stacking build with access to multiple damaging conditions as it is, why make it completely nonviable?

Asumita.2174:

bigmonto.4215:

Anet, We need an answer.

If you want to nerf celestial? That’s fine, but allow us to reelect a different stat. Actually better yet, just remove celestial all together in the game. With the crit damage nerf, no one in their right mind is going to use this crap.

You have to realize all this is due to Ascended armor being so time + resource intensive. With Exotics, I’ll just buy another set.

It is ironic that people stop playing because they don’t want to grind more in a supposedly no-grinding MMO. This is when you know you failed Anet.

+1 I’ve been accumulating charged quartz for the set, but stuff like this is a real let down. If anet does nerf the crit dmg on celestial, there is no reason to have it in the game anymore, just wasted data.

Exactly, if they’re going to make it so hard to acquire, even in exotic form, they can’t destroy it entirely…I hope.

Guess we’ll see their consideration/decision tomorrow…

Aberrant.6749:

Guess we’ll see their consideration/decision tomorrow…

This change isn’t coming next patch. Which makes it all the more concerning, with the silence on the issue. To several people, this is a make or break thing. Why bother working kitten ascended items if they’ll make it worthless on a whim? Why bother playing at all if they’re just going to throw around ideas, no matter who they hurt?

Ryoki Hokishami.2756:

Aberrant.6749:

Guess we’ll see their consideration/decision tomorrow…

This change isn’t coming next patch. Which makes it all the more concerning, with the silence on the issue. To several people, this is a make or break thing. Why bother working kitten ascended items if they’ll make it worthless on a whim? Why bother playing at all if they’re just going to throw around ideas, no matter who they hurt?

Oh, idk why I was under the impression that it was. Any specific eta then?

I wouldn’t be as big of a deal if they allow you to change any gear that currently has crit damage on it to another type of armor (although I 100% agree it’s the worst for celestial due to time gating and recipe costs).

Ryoki Hokishami.2756:

Why bother working kitten ascended items if they’ll make it worthless on a whim? Why bother playing at all if they’re just going to throw around ideas, no matter who they hurt?

My thought exactly.

Exedore.6320:

They will have 356 Ferocity with the change.

We don’t actually know this for 100% fact do we? I mean we are pretty much just inferring from the numbers that currently exist on armors? Could Anet not simply put higher ferocity on celestial than the other stats to compensate? Or better yet, what if the weighting and scaling of ferocity is exponential, multiplicative, or uses diminishing returns, or some calculation that causes the end result to be different from what we would expect from say precision→crit chance?

We don’t know yet, that’s the point. We wanna know what’s gonna happen.

I made a celestial set to kitten around PVE while drunk… reason was the crit damage. Looks like I’m just going to ditch it for clerics because I’m gonna have to be super hsit faced to play this game anymore. Anet has been nerfing my want to play this game hard over the last six months.

Up this thread until march until they answer…

They could just convert current crit damage to ferocity..
That is at least the same ferocity as zerker sets.

At that point it would be a non issue (well would be still a problem to lose that 10% in www -.- since power is lower)

But what we expect them to do is giving plain stat equals to Others is destroying a set just for the sake of having the same number…..

Gonna make a clerics set for my ranger so I can just facetank everything and not have to worry about dodging… or skillfully playing at all as a matter of fact.

Cleric = Ultimate Drunk Gear Set

But mostly can we ever know why they are nerfing celestial?

ANy reason…

When you nerf an underpowered set you need to give reasons…if its just because they like Mathematical aesthetic i think they should review their balancing.

I’m fairly certain ANET hasn’t thought about the consequences to Celestial when choosing to change critical damage to Ferocity. Their main focus was the Beserker META. So they probably overlooked the other sets entirely.

The fact that there’s no response still, and there’s been 4+ topics on this( all merged now), suggests that they know about our concern, but don’t have anything concrete to say yet.

On “celestial is an unpopular/underpowered spread”:
I’m kinda wondering why people are saying “only certain classes and builds can benefit from celestial gear”. Why aren’t there Guardians complaining that they can’t use Dire gear? Some stat spreads are good for some classes/builds. Some stat spreads are not good for some classes/builds. Are there even any viable builds which use Shaman’s gear?

On “muh crit damage”:
Looking at Celestial’s stat spread, what did you think it was; “high crit damage” or “gentle generalist” (with a slathering of MF if you’re from the past)? Current behavior with Celestial gear seems to not be taking it because you can boost everything your spec does in a generalist build, but because you can just shove crit damage into the slots which grant you ridiculous ratios for crit damage:stat (see: rings) and ignore the elements which don’t really factor into your build.

On “i made ascended for this i will unsubscribe/delete/stop playing/become an alcoholic”:
yeah if you spent your guild comms on earrings or 400g on damask to make a set that’s a bummer, but circling back to my other two points; you either got it because you’re one of the few builds that can benefit from all of its stats, or you made a- Let’s be gentle, and say “questionable” investment by banking on that crit damage. If you felt how disparate sPvP and WvW were, you knew this change was coming at some point.

On “everyone will be a condi bunker in wvw now”;
yeah that’ll probably be pretty sucky

Sarrs.4831:

Looking at Celestial’s stat spread, what did you think it was; “high crit damage” or “gentle generalist” (with a slathering of MF if you’re from the past)? Current behavior with Celestial gear seems to not be taking it because you can boost everything your spec does in a generalist build

Some elementalists www builds worked well with mixed gear…when celestial was introduced it was a viable alternative.

yeah if you spent your guild comms on earrings or 400g on damask to make a set that’s a bummer, but circling back to my other two points; you either got it because you’re one of the few builds that can benefit from all of its stats,

people Always forgets a LIGHT celestial is 644 golds ONLY on damask

Add 30 days of gear gating and the money of quartz, crafting, ecto, dark matter….

Its insane but we were promised by the usual anet, that no further patch would make current gear obsolete…

That is literally what a celestial nerf would do…(its like putting ONLY celstial down 2 tiers)

For most elementalist (for wich celestial is really popular) celestial is a part of a delicate balance that even the 10% nerf would hit a lot, but what they are doing is totally making the set worse than a rare with different stats.

In the end the loss is more than 1000 golds between gold and everything not to mention a hundred laurels and stuff.

I ll sum up in case a dev pass by:
-1000+ golds (see 644 only in damask for the armor…add the remaining cost of armor and weapons+ recipes + trinkets)
-90 laurels

With a 20% + nerf making that useless

And its not a threat saying people will stop playing…
What would you expect a player to do deleting most of his “vertical progression” after you forced him to grind like a korean?

They cannot ignore this issue, ANSWER TO US ANET AND TELL US WHAT WILL HAPPEN TO CELESTIALS,

Sarrs.4831:

On “muh crit damage”:
Looking at Celestial’s stat spread, what did you think it was; “high crit damage” or “gentle generalist” (with a slathering of MF if you’re from the past)? Current behavior with Celestial gear seems to not be taking it because you can boost everything your spec does in a generalist build, but because you can just shove crit damage into the slots which grant you ridiculous ratios for crit damage:stat (see: rings) and ignore the elements which don’t really factor into your build.

You don’t get the issue, do you? The issue is not the nerf of critical damage. The issue is that if the stats scale linear, celestial will be nerfed harder than berserker. The reason for this is that if celestial gets ferocity equal to their other stats it gets less ferocity per point critical damage than beserker does. This means that it gets double nerfed.

crickets
12 chars and such..

LordByron.8369:

Some elementalists www builds worked well with mixed gear…when celestial was introduced it was a viable alternative.

I know, that’s why I said there are a few builds that work well with it. All classes have a few

LordByron.8369:

people Always forgets a LIGHT celestial is 644 golds ONLY on damask

Add 30 days of gear gating and the money of quartz, crafting, ecto, dark matter….

I made a note to check what exactly the price of Damask was when I made that post. It currently costs 450g to get the 36 damask you need to craft a full set.

Quartz only makes sense as a costing when other items are competing for your Quartz. Once you have a full ascended set of Celestial gear, Quartz is completely worthless to you.

If you’re planning to make a new set of Ascended gear because of this change (apparently you’re just going to leave though), getting your crafting up is not a loss. You still need that crafting to make other stat spreads.

Dark Matter is not particularly expensive, with Exotic gear at a low- Mostly because of the huge dump of crafted items.

LordByron.8369:

Its insane but we were promised by the usual anet, that no further patch would make current gear obsolete…

That is literally what a celestial nerf would do…(its like putting ONLY celstial down 2 tiers)

For most elementalist (for wich celestial is really popular) celestial is a part of a delicate balance that even the 10% nerf would hit a lot, but what they are doing is totally making the set worse than a rare with different stats.

Will it? Is your build genuinely better off going with Rare gear of a different spread than it is with your current Celestial ascended gear, which is apparently your best stat spread? How much +crit damage% do you think you’ll actually lose(My spitball math puts it at 64% of your crit damage from gear)? Where’s the point that your stat spread becomes useless?

What makes you more worthy of a gear reset than Berserker’s, Assassin’s and Valkyrie’s geared players? Their output is getting nerfed too.

LordByron.8369:

And its not a threat saying people will stop playing…
What would you expect a player to do deleting most of his “vertical progression” after you forced him to grind like a korean?

“Forced” is such an interesting word in the context of a video game.

ThiBash.5634:

You don’t get the issue, do you? The issue is not the nerf of critical damage. The issue is that if the stats scale linear, celestial will be nerfed harder than berserker. The reason for this is that if celestial gets ferocity equal to their other stats it gets less ferocity per point critical damage than beserker does. This means that it gets double nerfed.

I know that Celestial loses more Crit Damage than Berserker’s does. I am doubtful that it will kill the stat spread.

Same thing happening to any gear with Critical Damage will happen to Celestial.

For an all-stat gear, Critical Damage was WAY too high in comparison to gear that relied on it. It should have been lower to begin with. It needed to be nerfed anyways, and now it is. It’s getting both the nerf it needs, and the overall Feroity nerf (which all Critical Damage gear except Valkyrie needed)

And yes, this is coming from someone who played a Celestial Ele. I’m not saying the Critical Damage wasn’t nice, but I’d be lying if I said it wasn’t too high for the gear.

Also, if you bought everything for your ascended gear, that’s your fault. If everyone wasn’t looking for a quick buck, they’d have more items for when stuff like this happens, because it ALWAYS happens, and people are still shocked.

Lump me into the crowd that is upset by this nerf, but I think you guys need to chillax.

What makes Celestial so good is that it offers more overall stats than three-attribute armor (i.e., exotic = 763 total versus 980 total).

So if you’re running a build that makes use of both condition damage and power, the additional critical damage made it a natural choice. Even with the ferocity nerf, if I had to do it all over again, I would still make an ascended Celestial armor set for my engineer over a Berserker’s or Rampager’s set.

So while I am upset that the armor set is being nerfed, I still am going to roll with it on my engineer in fractals and in World vs. World. It’s what I made it for, anyway. Exotic quality Berserker armor gets the job done for the rest of PvE.

Phineas Poe.3018:

So if you’re running a build that makes use of both condition damage and power, the additional critical damage made it a natural choice. Even with the ferocity nerf, if I had to do it all over again, I would still make an ascended Celestial armor set for my engineer over a Berserker’s or Rampager’s set.

You need to be able to make use of the Healing Power as well, otherwise it’s kinda… Eh.

Dalent.9358:

For an all-stat gear, Critical Damage was WAY too high in comparison to gear that relied on it. It should have been lower to begin with.

The problem ANET is addressing is zerker dominance in PvE. Reading that sentence carefully will quickly make clear that:
They are addresing a zerker problem, not a celestial problem.

You know why? Because celestial has nothing of overpowered despite it being true that it gets more crit damage than it should, that extra crit.damage barely makes it usable, many of those extra stats celestial gets are barely noticeable like thoughness or some prety much useless like healing power, so shafting power by half in a DPS oriented game is prety much pointless.

Aveneo.2068:

Dev1 – “Oh, Zerker doing to much DPS in PvE. Zerker=CritDMG amirite? Nerf CritDMG everyware1!!”
Dev2 – “Good job man, easy fix!”

Fixed :P

If they are going to trash my over 300 laurel investments without compensation, then im done here, this is the most ridiculous step in an online game that i ever witnessed. They just undo everything i have accomplished for the last six months.

Xunleashed.5271:

They cannot ignore this issue, ANSWER TO US ANET AND TELL US WHAT WILL HAPPEN TO CELESTIALS,

Ask that in Dungeon section, lots of dev attention there, maybe you will succeed.

If they are going to trash my over 300 laurel investments without compensation, then im done here

u r all so sweet

@topic: Todays patch notes = more celestial drama for upcoming month!

Kontrolle.3514:

If they are going to trash my over 300 laurel investments without compensation, then im done here, this is the most ridiculous step in an online game that i ever witnessed. They just undo everything i have accomplished for the last six months.

No, as bad as this may be … It can’t be worse than Star Wars Galaxies.