Guild Wars 2

Thank you for your response, Roy.

Our biggest concern here was the lack of an official response whether or not you had any definite plans in mind on how to remedy it. Plenty of options have been posed here and since you guys are aware of how disproportional of a hit celestial is receiving it’s good to know it’s being considered.

Roy Cronacher.1576:

I wanted to stop by and say thanks for the feedback. We do feel that the celestial stat set will be hit the hardest with the upcoming critical damage changes, so we are looking at possibly boosting the overall stats by a small amount.

Also the celestial stat set in PvP is using a much lower stat multipliers than the PvE versions so we will be looking at changing this as well. Nothing is set in stone, but I wanted to let guys know this is something we are discussing.

Thank you very much for both the reply and the consideration. It’s much appreciated.

spoj.9672:

Have you considered buffing rampager to be on par with beserker and nerfing rabid/carrion? I dont think its right that gear with a defensive stat has such high damage potential compared to other sets. Especially as rabid seems to do more damage than rampager which makes no sense when comparing the risk vs reward of the stat combos.

All gear has the same major/minor distribution, this probably shouldn’t change.

The damage mechanics lead to precision being an ‘underpowered’ stat, that is, if you choose gear with x points in power you will get a higher increase in damage then by choosing gear with x points in precision. If you choose gear that places precision before power you loose damage but you get a higher chance to trigger on-critical effects. It’s a matter of choice.

Rampager has precision as major, it has this to increase critical chance, which increases the chance that on-critical-hit events occur. It pays for the increased effectiveness of the on-crit triggers with a lower damage. Expecting that it additionally maintains the same level as damage as gear that sacrifices critical chance (and thus on-crit events) in exchange for more effective primary damage.

You can’t have your cake and eat it.

Roy Cronacher.1576:

That would be the idea. =)

I got a good one too. Cancel the crit damage change

frans.8092:

spoj.9672:

Have you considered buffing rampager to be on par with beserker and nerfing rabid/carrion? I dont think its right that gear with a defensive stat has such high damage potential compared to other sets. Especially as rabid seems to do more damage than rampager which makes no sense when comparing the risk vs reward of the stat combos.

All gear has the same major/minor distribution, this probably shouldn’t change.

The damage mechanics lead to precision being an ‘underpowered’ stat, that is, if you choose gear with x points in power you will get a higher increase in damage then by choosing gear with x points in precision. If you choose gear that places precision before power you loose damage but you get a higher chance to trigger on-critical effects. It’s a matter of choice.

Rampager has precision as major, it has this to increase critical chance, which increases the chance that on-critical-hit events occur. It pays for the increased effectiveness of the on-crit triggers with a lower damage. Expecting that it additionally maintains the same level as damage as gear that sacrifices critical chance (and thus on-crit events) in exchange for more effective primary damage.

You can’t have your cake and eat it.

I know this. But rampager could actually be decent with condi or power as the main stat and well I dont know how they would fix rabid in comparison but it really shouldnt be stronger than rampager.

spoj.9672:

frans.8092:

spoj.9672:

Have you considered buffing rampager to be on par with beserker and nerfing rabid/carrion? I dont think its right that gear with a defensive stat has such high damage potential compared to other sets. Especially as rabid seems to do more damage than rampager which makes no sense when comparing the risk vs reward of the stat combos.

All gear has the same major/minor distribution, this probably shouldn’t change.

The damage mechanics lead to precision being an ‘underpowered’ stat, that is, if you choose gear with x points in power you will get a higher increase in damage then by choosing gear with x points in precision. If you choose gear that places precision before power you loose damage but you get a higher chance to trigger on-critical effects. It’s a matter of choice.

Rampager has precision as major, it has this to increase critical chance, which increases the chance that on-critical-hit events occur. It pays for the increased effectiveness of the on-crit triggers with a lower damage. Expecting that it additionally maintains the same level as damage as gear that sacrifices critical chance (and thus on-crit events) in exchange for more effective primary damage.

You can’t have your cake and eat it.

I know this. But rampager could actually be decent with condi or power as the main stat and well I dont know how they would fix rabid in comparison but it really shouldnt be stronger than rampager.

I don’t think they need to change rabid or rampager.. just introduce a new stat gear that has either Condi or Power as main.. like Sentinels vs Soldier (VPT vs PVT)

Cat Has Ducks.1982:

I got a good one too. Cancel the crit damage change

That would be for the best, but it is unrealistic. Aside from crit dmg, this is probably going to turn into an indirect nerf for precision and thus a nerf for all the on crit effects and traits. Sorry Engies.

Cat Has Ducks.1982:

Roy Cronacher.1576:

That would be the idea. =)

I got a good one too. Cancel the crit damage change

You know what, I think this is the best idea.

Seriously Crit dam doesn’t need to be nerf. If they want to fix the pve meta they need to redesign each encounter so that tanking gear is more effective. If that’s too much to do, then just leave everything alone.

By nerfing crit dam, Anet only slows down the kill for each encounter. The pve meta will still be zerker. In fact I would even say more people will require other players to wear zerker in dungeons, just because it is harder for the zerker guys to carry the non-zerker wearers. I never had to wear full zerker to do dungeons, if I had to due to this pointless nerf, that would pretty screw up.

Anet please reconsider the crit kitten erf.

Roy Cronacher.1576:

I wanted to stop by and say thanks for the feedback. We do feel that the celestial stat set will be hit the hardest with the upcoming critical damage changes, so we are looking at possibly boosting the overall stats by a small amount.

Also the celestial stat set in PvP is using a much lower stat multipliers than the PvE versions so we will be looking at changing this as well. Nothing is set in stone, but I wanted to let guys know this is something we are discussing.

I hope that doesn’t mean it’ll be intentionally hit the hardest, rather, that with the current proposal it would have been hit the hardest…

Thanks for the response

Roy Cronacher.1576:

I wanted to stop by and say thanks for the feedback. We do feel that the celestial stat set will be hit the hardest with the upcoming critical damage changes, so we are looking at possibly boosting the overall stats by a small amount.

Also the celestial stat set in PvP is using a much lower stat multipliers than the PvE versions so we will be looking at changing this as well. Nothing is set in stone, but I wanted to let guys know this is something we are discussing.

What might be a better ‘2 moas with one stone’ solution is to FIX the Giver’s armor by turning Boon Duration into a stat rather than a percent value (same fix as crit magnitude → Ferocity) and then add that stat to Celestial.

Nike.2631:

Roy Cronacher.1576:

I wanted to stop by and say thanks for the feedback. We do feel that the celestial stat set will be hit the hardest with the upcoming critical damage changes, so we are looking at possibly boosting the overall stats by a small amount.

Also the celestial stat set in PvP is using a much lower stat multipliers than the PvE versions so we will be looking at changing this as well. Nothing is set in stone, but I wanted to let guys know this is something we are discussing.

What might be a better ‘2 moas with one stone’ solution is to FIX the Giver’s armor by turning Boon Duration into a stat rather than a percent value (same fix as crit magnitude -> Ferocity) and then add that stat to Celestial.

I like this.

Cat Has Ducks.1982:

Roy Cronacher.1576:

That would be the idea. =)

I got a good one too. Cancel the crit damage change

Yup +1 to this guy…How about you guys fix the condition meta instead, that everyone abuses and has been for months on end…Oh hold on, wrong topic…Sorry these are PvE changes specifically for the PvE players that will end up affecting WvW anyway. and since you guys don’t like listening to players that much, apart from a handful who’s ideas seem to match yours… carry on keep screwing up with WvW even more (I’ve lost hope for it).

Roy Cronacher.1576:

I wanted to stop by and say thanks for the feedback. We do feel that the celestial stat set will be hit the hardest with the upcoming critical damage changes, so we are looking at possibly boosting the overall stats by a small amount.

Also the celestial stat set in PvP is using a much lower stat multipliers than the PvE versions so we will be looking at changing this as well. Nothing is set in stone, but I wanted to let guys know this is something we are discussing.

Thanks a lot for the response. I am always glad to see that these issues are reviewed by the developers (btw: you should give feedback more often ).

There is something that I want to make sure it gets reviewed correctly: there is a lot of math in this thread that clearly indicates that the “small” amount has to be larger than you might have initially expected. As celestial is timegated and account-bound (so you can only obtain it by regularly coming back) I think it should be a very viable alternative and something to be really considered when choosing gear. I really like the idea behind the all stat gear (and the fact that you have to really use a large diversity of skills to get the most out of it), and I hope you do too.

I’d be happy if celestial got knocked down a bit, it’s a little too OP currently, if it lost some crit dmg, and didn’t get a boost in the other stats, I’d be glad. Remember ALL crit dmg is getting reduced, so celestial shouldn’t get a stat boost when things like zerker are also getting nerfed slightly and no stat boost for it.

I didn’t read through most of the thread to see if this has been mentioned, but Runes of Divinity and Runes of the Traveler are going to be hit hardest of all gear types. They have a ratio of 5 points : 1% crit damage, being the lowest in the game along with crit damage minor jewels. Any plans to look specifically at these runes or no?

If it has been mentioned already, sorry for repeating. Although, it could probably benefit from another mention.

Cat Has Ducks.1982:

Roy Cronacher.1576:

That would be the idea. =)

I got a good one too. Cancel the crit damage change

Honestly, 1000x this. I know anet is concerned about power creep. It is a legitimate concern, but….

FEROCITY IS NOT THE WAY TO SOLVE IT.

It is seemingly a very lazy, disingenuous, and ineffectual change. It attempts to devalue zerker in relation to other armors. This has been explictly stated by anet. There are multiple flaws in the approach that undermine that.

1. Berserker will be just as prefered as it was before. The choice between berserker and say, knights, is not a detailed cost-benefit analysis of % damage versus % survivability. It is a raw, black and white assessment of “do I do more damage, or take more hits?” Whether the "more damage is 50%, 10%, or 2%, everyone who prioritizes damage over durability will continue to prioritize damage over durability.

2. The intent was clearly to devalue berserker, but by ArenaNet’s own admission, it will likely hit celestial harder. This gear was already singled out to be hit unduely hard by a stat nerf once before. When magic find went away, every other piece of MF gear in the game got an alternative, or a boost to practical stats to make up for it. Celestial got neither. Now, it will again be caught in the crossfire. As a stat set that has its own time gate, that people have poured a massive amount of effort and time into, this is unacceptable. Anet has recognized this is an issue.

3. Damage is not the problem with the current power creep in PvE. It is mechanics. The reason people are making the black and white decisions I mentioned in point 1 is that nothing in any of these encounters encourages them to do otherwise. There is no steady damage requiring mitigation. There are very few attacks that are unavoidable, and mitigation boons are far too widely available. I can count on one hand how m any times I will look in a fractals run and see that people don’t have either aegis or protection up. Instead of steady damage chipping away a relevant amount of health, each blow is either negligible, or a 1-shot. If a hit is going to 1-shot or nearly 1-shot, extra defensive stats are irrelevant.

LordByron.8369:

The nerf is not aimed at balanced builds.

The point exactly, as Celestial was – clearly, but apparently not quite as clear to everyone – intended to be gear used in balanced builds. Or rather builds which end up scaling well with all stats or all but one stat.

The Celestial change is supposed to nerf the ones who used it for stacking crit damage, I suppose. I mean that’s what item scaling nerfs in MMOs do, step in where unintended usage happened as a result of errors during item design

Offering an exchange would be idea ofc.

spoj.9672:

I know this. But rampager could actually be decent with condi or power as the main stat and well I dont know how they would fix rabid in comparison but it really shouldnt be stronger than rampager.

Yes, It would be awesome, I’ve been wanting such a combination.

Roy Cronacher.1576:

I wanted to stop by and say thanks for the feedback. We do feel that the celestial stat set will be hit the hardest with the upcoming critical damage changes, so we are looking at possibly boosting the overall stats by a small amount.

Also the celestial stat set in PvP is using a much lower stat multipliers than the PvE versions so we will be looking at changing this as well. Nothing is set in stone, but I wanted to let guys know this is something we are discussing.

Once again…
WUPWUP costs lot of gold/money as celestial does.

If you boost overall stats nothing will change…people will have a soulbound useless set they won t be able to use with the build they crafted it for.

The easy way is: let away the VISUAL balance and convert wupwup/celestial ferocity in order to match zzojia/berserker

Or offer a stat change so people will get rid of them…(i would get knight with no regret -.- despite the 30 days lost……).

Firstly, I want to accent that the Celestial items need to have a bigger sum of stats than the regular ones (if just adding up all stat numbers). If not, you might as well dump those items, because the "balanced’ effect can be reached by players by choosing a variety of other items with different primary and secondary stats so that summed up, they provide the same numbers as full Celestial gear.

Now, why the sum needs to be not just a bit bigger, but distinctly bigger.
It’s obvious that there is a natural counterforce to all people going Celestial – only some builds profit from having every single stat on gear. Some builds are worse with conditions, some with direct damage, some don’t need toughness and vitality that much, many do without healing power.

What I’m saying is that there is nothing wrong if the Celestial stat combination is going to get straight number buffs. Or other buffs like adding buff duration to it.

Power creep in WvW is a serious issue. Damage multipliers have to be addressed to keep things going. Retaliation alone is getting absurd.

What Orb says is basically what I think should be done, too.
Celestial gear is currently supposed to be 5/8 gear. It is actually a bit more, due to the crit levels.

But once fixed – and I do consider this a fix, not a nerf, even if it happens to nerf some people – 5/8 would really be a tad too low.
And I don’t think a huge buff is needed, I’d try 11/16 or 3/4.

Roy Cronacher.1576:

I wanted to stop by and say thanks for the feedback. We do feel that the celestial stat set will be hit the hardest with the upcoming critical damage changes, so we are looking at possibly boosting the overall stats by a small amount.

Also the celestial stat set in PvP is using a much lower stat multipliers than the PvE versions so we will be looking at changing this as well. Nothing is set in stone, but I wanted to let guys know this is something we are discussing.

Thanks you very much for acknowledging this. I was sad for all the farming I did for my celestial gear. The magic find nerf was already bad at the time. But the critical damage nerf was a bit too much for celestial gear and I planned on throwing mine away. Please don’t let us down.

Carighan.6758:

What Orb says is basically what I think should be done, too.
Celestial gear is currently supposed to be 5/8 gear. It is actually a bit more, due to the crit levels.

But once fixed – and I do consider this a fix, not a nerf, even if it happens to nerf some people – 5/8 would really be a tad too low.
And I don’t think a huge buff is needed, I’d try 11/16 or 3/4.

No offense but since you thought the following was fair and balanced….

http://i.imgur.com/ag4NqGw.jpg

I don t think your concept of balance or your calculations are reliable……
P.S. that is referred to pve, while for WWW more celestial is useful.

frans.8092:

The damage mechanics lead to precision being an ‘underpowered’ stat, that is, if you choose gear with x points in power you will get a higher increase in damage then by choosing gear with x points in precision. If you choose gear that places precision before power you loose damage but you get a higher chance to trigger on-critical effects. It’s a matter of choice.

It’s worth mentioning that sigils will be rebalanced and maybe even buffed in that patch too. Precision might gain some nice power independent from Ferocity there too.

Assuming that 1% crit dmg = 13.4 ferocity (on ascended weapons: 134 stat = 10% crit. dmg)

these are the celestial ascended staff’s stats
+83 Power
+83 Precision
+83 Toughness
+83 Vitality
+83 Condition Damage
+11% Critical Damage (147.4 Ferocity)
+83 Healing Power

So if they’re going to bring 14.7 to 83, we have 64.4 stats point to redistribute.
It means 9.2 stats point per stat type, 83 becomes 92.2
Let’s count 92

+92 Power
+92 Precision
+92 Toughness
+92 Vitality
+92 Condition Damage
+92 Ferocity (6.9% Critical Damage)
+92 Healing Power

BUT
By making this change celestial’s users are losing 64 point in a really useful stat like Ferocity, and redistributed between all stats including 2 “lesser” stats:
- Healing Power which is fairly useful
- Condition Damage which is really weak for the majority of the builds

I will suggest:
1) More stats to compensate
for istance: 96 to all instead of 92
or
2) More ferocity
for istance: 88 to all eccept 104 Ferocity
or
3) More power
for istance: 88 to all eccept 104 Power

/discuss

p.s.
I’m not native English/USA

I was thinking that it’ll be 19 Ferocity => 1% crit.

celestial ascended staff’s stats
+83 Power
+83 Precision
+83 Toughness
+83 Vitality
+83 Condition Damage
+148 Ferocity
+83 Healing Power

this >.>

May i have an explanation why celestial doesnt deserve a straight conversion like any other set?
Upper solution means total balance….no buffs and balanced nerfs to crit ….

LordByron.8369:

Upper solution means total balance….no buffs and balanced nerfs to crit ….

1) All crit damage sets are hit.
2) It’s celestial with an equal distribution as hallmark

In the interest of diversity celestial shouldn’t become the new bis. It’s a thin line, Celestial is good for builds utilizing 5-6 or more attributes. If that changes to 4-5 attributes it would all too quickly become the standard gear choice (power, precision, ferocity/crit-damage, toughness and vitality already are strong choices in almost any build).

frans.8092:

LordByron.8369:

Upper solution means total balance….no buffs and balanced nerfs to crit ….

1) All crit damage sets are hit.

as it is celestial in equal measure as any other..

2) It’s celestial with an equal distribution as hallmark

this is a silly reason….would you ruin a game in order to have aesthetic in numbers?

In the interest of diversity celestial shouldn’t become the new bis. It’s a thin line, Celestial is good for builds utilizing 5-6 or more attributes. If that changes to 4-5 attributes it would all too quickly become the standard gear choice (power, precision, ferocity/crit-damage, toughness and vitality already are strong choices in almost any build).

You seem to ignore how celestial works….

Today
Celestial DPS < SOLDIER (pow thoug vit)

Even with a straight conversion….celestial lose even more dps while soldier won t.
(thus becoming less attractive…..DPS equip that is the target of nerfs is totally on another League since your dps is amongst the lowest)

I had to repeat this to people only looking at crit damage as it was actual damage too many times…

Please before asking for nerfs be sure to be informed enough or at least read the thread

Nike.2631:

What might be a better ‘2 moas with one stone’ solution is to FIX the Giver’s armor by turning Boon Duration into a stat rather than a percent value (same fix as crit magnitude -> Ferocity) and then add that stat to Celestial.

They’d need to do that to Condition Duration if they did it to Boon Duration. Whether or not this is a good idea, I can’t say for sure, but Giver’s weapons would get whacked pretty hard by such a change.

shadowsoul.2134:

these are the celestial ascended staff’s stats
+83 Power
+83 Precision
+83 Toughness
+83 Vitality
+83 Condition Damage
+11% Critical Damage (147.4 Ferocity)
+83 Healing Power

There’s the commonly thrown around 5/8 fraction and a few people (at least, me) would push it up to 6/8(or 3/4). Using these numbers, it’d change it from 83 to about 100 per stat.

I don’t know if it’d really hurt to be generous with the set, but I somewhat doubt it would.

shadowsoul.2134:

BUT
By making this change celestial’s users are losing 64 point in a really useful stat like Ferocity, and redistributed between all stats including 2 “lesser” stats:
- Healing Power which is fairly useful
- Condition Damage which is really weak for the majority of the builds

I’m inclined to disagree with this. If you’re going Celestial, you should be doing it with a spec that can make use of everything the spread has to offer, including healing power and condi damage. There are esoteric sets that aren’t easy to fit into a build; Celestial’s one of them.

LordByron.8369:

No offense but since you thought the following was fair and balanced….

Geez you have some anger management issues.
I said it was a fix, yes. The gear has all stats except one at the same amount of it given, relative to main stat gear. Except one. Find the outlier. Isn’t all that difficult, actually.

And then, in the very nice line, I say that once fixed, the amount of stats should be increased.

But let me guess, you never even read the part you quoted, did you? :P

LordByron.8369:

celestial ascended staff’s stats
+83 Power
+83 Precision
+83 Toughness
+83 Vitality
+83 Condition Damage
+148 Ferocity
+83 Healing Power

this >.>

May i have an explanation why celestial doesnt deserve a straight conversion like any other set?
Upper solution means total balance….no buffs and balanced nerfs to crit ….

Because much smarter – and actually doing what Celestial gear is supposed to do – would be:
+100 Power
+100 Precision
+100 Toughness
+100 Vitality
+100 Condition Damage
+100 Ferocity
+100 Healing Power

Ferocity takes a 33% nerf, all other stats get a 20% buff. Gear is now 3/4 gear instead of 5/8 gear, hence the 20% increase.

Makes more immediate sense, also makes the gear more useful for it’s intended use as actual all-round gear.

Sarrs.4831:

shadowsoul.2134:

BUT
By making this change celestial’s users are losing 64 point in a really useful stat like Ferocity, and redistributed between all stats including 2 “lesser” stats:
- Healing Power which is fairly useful
- Condition Damage which is really weak for the majority of the builds

I’m inclined to disagree with this. If you’re going Celestial, you should be doing it with a spec that can make use of everything the spread has to offer, including healing power and condi damage. There are esoteric sets that aren’t easy to fit into a build; Celestial’s one of them.

Well, with my staff elementarist (almost) full celestial I make a good use of healing power, my WvW role is damage/support so I need a minimum of 700 healing in order to be effective but I can’t go over 800 becouse I would lost too much damage or survival. And even if i could choose for more heal, healing power over a medium amount scales good only for guardians in WvW gameplay, it’s not worth for all the other classes.
So, would I lost for istance 50 healing point in return for 50 damage stat point? Yes, if I’would be still beyond the minimum number. Thats why i said that Healing is “fairly useful”.
Cond. dmg scales really bad with burning and a little better with bleeding. I don’t have access to a condition spam skill with my staff so cond. dmg is the worst stat for my build.
Still celestial stats are the best for my role, considering that all the almost useless cond. dmg and even a part of the healing stats are given “for free” in comparison with all the other sets.
But, as I said before, losing a damage stat in exchange of all stats including healing and condition makes celestial worse than it used to be.

Carighan.6758:

LordByron.8369:

No offense but since you thought the following was fair and balanced….

Geez you have some anger management issues.
I said it was a fix, yes. The gear has all stats except one at the same amount of it given, relative to main stat gear. Except one. Find the outlier. Isn’t all that difficult, actually.

And then, in the very nice line, I say that once fixed, the amount of stats should be increased.

But let me guess, you never even read the part you quoted, did you? :P

LordByron.8369:

celestial ascended staff’s stats
+83 Power
+83 Precision
+83 Toughness
+83 Vitality
+83 Condition Damage
+148 Ferocity
+83 Healing Power

this >.>

May i have an explanation why celestial doesnt deserve a straight conversion like any other set?
Upper solution means total balance….no buffs and balanced nerfs to crit ….

Because much smarter – and actually doing what Celestial gear is supposed to do – would be:
+100 Power
+100 Precision
+100 Toughness
+100 Vitality
+100 Condition Damage
+100 Ferocity
+100 Healing Power

Ferocity takes a 33% nerf, all other stats get a 20% buff. Gear is now 3/4 gear instead of 5/8 gear, hence the 20% increase.

Makes more immediate sense, also makes the gear more useful for it’s intended use as actual all-round gear.

That is as smart as deciding to change berserker into valkyrie and valkyrie into zerker.

Once again
We are not a BETA
Changing stats to a GRINDY equipment changing his purpose 1 year after the game is released is an awful idea.

40-50 days for a full celestial set + almost a thousand gold …..
May be good for the chinese community starting today, its not for anyone other.

What do you think would happen if in a F1/Nascar season they suddenly adopted a new rule making some cars illegal with no way to fix them…..?

Also instead of saying i have “anger management issue” accept the fact you were completely wrong asking for overnerf….and since you defended strongly that position, you are not a reliable source on this issue.

Why not giving celestial boon and condition durations?

That way it’ll actually have all 4 primary and all 5 secondary attributes, and you’ll compensate the decreased damage with something that always comes in handy, without directly adding more direct damage. Players would be able to get that extra damage through dps conditions and damage boons such as fury and might.

LordByron.8369:

frans.8092:

LordByron.8369:

Upper solution means total balance….no buffs and balanced nerfs to crit ….

1) All crit damage sets are hit.

as it is celestial in equal measure as any other..

Celestial had too much crit damage assigned. Celestial armor has more crit-damage then the highly specialized Berserker. Absurd.

2) It’s celestial with an equal distribution as hallmark

this is a silly reason….would you ruin a game in order to have aesthetic in numbers?

It is not ruining a game but getting out of control attribute combinations back in check.

In the interest of diversity celestial shouldn’t become the new bis. It’s a thin line, Celestial is good for builds utilizing 5-6 or more attributes. If that changes to 4-5 attributes it would all too quickly become the standard gear choice (power, precision, ferocity/crit-damage, toughness and vitality already are strong choices in almost any build).

You seem to ignore how celestial works….

Today
Celestial DPS < SOLDIER (pow thoug vit)

Nope. D/ auto-attack chain does more damage with Celestial then Soldier’s. This is in part due to the applied condition, which should be part of the comparison as celestial is an all-round set and many, many attack add some dot-condition. But even when looking at the purely power based part they are pretty equal, unless you’re stacking might and other power sources beyond the basic gear, because then Celestial wins hands down from Soldiers. And that is not even looking at how the 20% increase in crit-chance it has compared to Soldiers, makes on-critical proccing usable where it is not for Soldiers.

Even with a straight conversion…xcelestial lose even more dps while soldier won t.

Celestial is not a dps set, it’s an all-round set. It should not even be an option to consider for a specialized (power/crit) build. Celestial simply shouldn’t yield more crit damage then a specialized set like Berserker as it does now.

Please before asking for nerfs be sure to be informed enough or at least read the thread

I am quite well informed, thank you. I am not even asking for nerfs, I actually support increasing the all-stat values a bit, but I will point out that celestial is currently out of wack with it’s high crit-damage and that there is no reason to maintain that imbalance or compensate it with extra ferocity. I might as well request that Ruby Orbs get a little boost in Ferocity as they are the real ‘victims’.

LordByron.8369:

That is as smart as deciding to change berserker into valkyrie and valkyrie into zerker.

Explain your analogy.

Berserker’s is a full-poundage DPS set.
Valkyrie’s is set which, if used in full, is supposed to be used to exploit Hidden Killer/Arcane utilities.
Swapping these two would drastically alter which specs use which set.

Cutting the crit damage and increasing the raw stats on a Celestial set does not do this. The spread is still valuable to its intended audience- Classes and specs which can viably use all stats. It may be less valuable due to a direct nerf, but the audience doesn’t change.

40-50 days for a full celestial set + almost a thousand gold …..

You’re being really lazy if it takes 40 days for you.

What do you think would happen if in a F1/Nascar season they suddenly adopted a new rule making some cars illegal with no way to fix them…..?

They wouldn’t change the rules suddenly. Rules are changed with deliberate intent. This change is far from sudden unless you simply haven’t been paying attention. ANet’s already acknowledged that they’ve changed the rules for Celestial and are looking into rebalancing the spread; what more do you want?

Also instead of saying i have “anger management issue” accept the fact you were completely wrong asking for overnerf….and since you defended strongly that position, you are not a reliable source on this issue.

You’ve spent the entire thread dodging arguments and shifting the goalposts to the point where even ANet acknowledging there’s an issue and saying that they’re considering pushing up the numbers is not enough for you. If that doesn’t bring into question your emotional state, I don’t know what does.

Orpheal.8263:

Could someone explain here briefly, what that new “Ferocity” Stat exactly does, sorry, couldn’t get early enough into the stream, to hear, what it will do soon.

I can say so far only, that I dislike the name of the new stat, because it has exactly the same name, like one of our 3 personalities, what I think is absolutely an uncreative way of naming the new stat.
Why rename it at all?
And if they have to rename it, why can’t they give it not a good Stat Name that fits to the other Stats in its theme, something like:

• Courage
• Agility
• Dexterity
• Perspicacity
• Valor

Somethign like that I see do fit like 100000 times more, than giving that Stat the same name like the personality >.>

+1 I totally agree though I propose Impact as a viable name for “crit damage”

LordByron.8369:

That is as smart as deciding to change berserker into valkyrie and valkyrie into zerker.

Once again
We are not a BETA
Changing stats to a GRINDY equipment changing his purpose 1 year after the game is released is an awful idea.

I am sorry that you misunderstood the intend of Celestial gear. Apparently all the other stats having the exact same value wasn’t enough of a tell.

I mean I get that you’re angry that you’re losing time/money spend over this but have you considered the game might be healthier as a result of it? It’s not always about you!

(Mind you, I’m using Celestial gear myself)

LordByron.8369:

40-50 days for a full celestial set + almost a thousand gold …..
May be good for the chinese community starting today, its not for anyone other.

Ah, some racism in the same post, classy.

What’s a minor amount of time spent? 40-50 days (mind you, of 5 minutes each) is ~nothing in MMOs, a year would be a lot of time.

LordByron.8369:

What do you think would happen if in a F1/Nascar season they suddenly adopted a new rule making some cars illegal with no way to fix them…..?

That’s actually a very good analogy.
They are adapting the rules on racing cars constantly, more over, making car manufacturers spend a ton of money on new cars.

Why? To create a better league. I’m not an expert on NASCAR ofc, but here’s a list from formula 1 .

LordByron.8369:

Also instead of saying i have “anger management issue” accept the fact you were completely wrong asking for overnerf….and since you defended strongly that position, you are not a reliable source on this issue.

Because you aren’t emotionally invested, I take it? :P
See, I stand to lose some stats which I really don’t mind (I use Celestial gear). I think the gear will work better as actually all-round-same-stats gear. I think it needs a buff then, but it shouldn’t be some weird crit-set, it pretty obviously wasn’t the original intend behind it.
You seem to stand to lose your sanity over it, on the other hand.

@ Carighan — I’ve said the same thing in other threads but you can’t do much to convince some players.

As I’ve mentioned before, if you picked your Celestial gear for purely for the +crit damage, then you made a mistake — you should have picked another stat combo.

I’m confident that Celestial’s overall stat contribution will be increased to compensate (ANet has said as much already). It makes me even happier that I invested in my Celestial gear.

juno.1840:

As I’ve mentioned before, if you picked your Celestial gear for purely for the +crit damage, then you made a mistake — you should have picked another stat combo.

Errhh how do you figure? Isn’t that a very closed minded statement? There is such thing as different build and mix and match gears you know. Some of us choose certain pieces of Celestial exactly for the crit dam. The fact is that high crit dam is on celestial armors, and dev put it there for a reason. They are not blind. The fact that they didn’t change it or hot-fix it for the longest time means that dev meant for these to be high.

Crit dam is also the reason why a lot of us choose zerker trinkets. No one ever thought we made a mistake until dev decided to change the stats on us. And you are only able to make that statement because the dev decided to make a pointless nerf. What if dev decided nerf toughness to the ground tomorrow, are you going to come out and say the people who choose Solider or Knight set also made a mistake?

This all go back to one question: Should we be at fault for not trying to guess Anet’s future actions? You should be asking that instead of trying to convince people how they should choose their build or gear.

So dev, you should be able to change the stats as you see fit, however, you should not undermine a players effort and choice. When you make a huge stats change like this one, at least let the player reset stats based on the new distribution.

So what if zerker gear got nerfed? It doesn’t change the fact that it still kills the mobs the fastest out of any gear set, and that is how the game was designed to be played. Anet just needs to make the other stats “just” as important.
I also agree with raising the stats on celestial to compensate for the huge crit dmg nerf.

Asumita.2174:

So what if zerker gear got nerfed? It doesn’t change the fact that it still kills the mobs the fastest out of any gear set, and that is how the game was designed to be played. Anet just needs to make the other stats “just” as important.
I also agree with raising the stats on celestial to compensate for the huge crit dmg nerf.

There I thought the purpose of nerfing crit damage is to change the pve meta. Otherwise I just don’t see the point nerfing crit damage. It is already a inferior build + set in pvp and wvw.

Anyways, just so you know, among the 3 direct dam stats (power, precision, and crit dam) Crit dam is ranked 3rd in turn of effectiveness. If they do want to nerf the direct dam sets, power is a better option. By nerfing a stat that’s already less effective, Anet is is basically making ferocity’s relative worth a lot less than other stats.

This means is that if I am interested in any type of balanced build I would stay away from Zerker or any set with ferocity in it, which effectively wasted my time and effort in making my current zerker and celestial pieces. If I can reelect, I will prob go with mostly solider and knights, and only keep a few zerker pieces.

bigmonto.4215:

Asumita.2174:

So what if zerker gear got nerfed? It doesn’t change the fact that it still kills the mobs the fastest out of any gear set, and that is how the game was designed to be played. Anet just needs to make the other stats “just” as important.
I also agree with raising the stats on celestial to compensate for the huge crit dmg nerf.

There I thought the purpose of nerfing crit damage is to change the pve meta. Otherwise I just don’t see the point nerfing crit damage. It is already a inferior build + set in pvp and wvw.

Anyways, just so you know, among the 3 direct dam stats (power, precision, and crit dam) Crit dam is ranked 3rd in turn of effectiveness. If they do want to nerf the direct dam sets, power is a better option. By nerfing a stat that’s already less effective, Anet is is basically making ferocity’s relative worth a lot less than other stats.

This means is that if I am interested in any type of balanced build I would stay away from Zerker or any set with ferocity in it, which effectively wasted my time and effort in making my current zerker and celestial pieces. If I can reelect, I will prob go with mostly solider and knights, and only keep a few zerker pieces.

yeah, I understand ya. I was just pointing out how the nerf would not solve anything. If they lower the major stat(power), then all other major stats in other gear needs to go down too. It’s just the way anet designed the whole gear stat system.
Maybe they just need to implement a system where there are diminishing returns when you go past a certain power level so that using all berserker won’t be optimal anymore.

Sarrs.4831:

40-50 days for a full celestial set + almost a thousand gold …..

You’re being really lazy if it takes 40 days for you.

Look, if, you want to have a problem with that other guy, you take it to PMs. But it is extremely reasonable to take 40 days to make the charged quartz for the set, considering you can only make one per day. Do not insult the rest of the player base because you cannot control yourself in your personal issue with that other guy.

I cannot say for the money though. I horde mats, and tend to wait till I have collected what I need to make something. But, it is a time gated gear, that takes a lot of gold worth of mats.

Because of the time investment, as well as mats or gold investment, I can understand the concern to make sure the gear keeps its value in its use. I for one know I would be very agitated if I lose more value then I feel I should in my full set of it, at least in how it compares to other gear sets now versus how it may compare after the change.

I would be satisfied if they increased the overall stats to lose close the same amount overall of dps as the other sets. That way it would be a fairly even across the board drop vs. one set being hit substantially harder than the rest. I still think they should offer stat changes for all the gear with crit damage though.

Roy Cronacher.1576:

I wanted to stop by and say thanks for the feedback. We do feel that the celestial stat set will be hit the hardest with the upcoming critical damage changes, so we are looking at possibly boosting the overall stats by a small amount.

Also the celestial stat set in PvP is using a much lower stat multipliers than the PvE versions so we will be looking at changing this as well. Nothing is set in stone, but I wanted to let guys know this is something we are discussing.

Thank you for your message,
The problem has to do with damage.
I (we) don’t want more of all stats. I choose celestial specially because even if it gives you a bit of all stats the critical damage was equivalent to another set. My entire build is built around that.

Whats the point of having all stats if you cannot do enough damage (that was clearly the initial thought of the person who designed the celestial set – and that person was correct in it’s assumption that increasing one of the offensive stats was needed to compensate the extreme low damage)

After all, weren’t you supposed to nerf berserkers damage builds? The celestial set is already a low damage set, why nerf it?

There are only 2 good solution in my opinion:
1- Keep the Ferocity stats equivalent to the previous critical damage stat (more than the other stats)
2- Increase the Power stats on celestial items to match a value equivalent to the previous critical value

I am against the idea to flatten all the stats, and I will request a refund for the Dwayna celestial backpiece I made in part converting gems I bought to gold if you decide to go in that direction.

bigmonto.4215:

Errhh how do you figure? Isn’t that a very closed minded statement? There is such thing as different build and mix and match gears you know. Some of us choose certain pieces of Celestial exactly for the crit dam.

But really, be honest:

When you looked at Celestial gear, and at what Celestial as an item prefix does, were you really thinking “Oh, crit-centric with a dash of all other stats”? Or were you thinking “All-stat”?

Because while I very much like the +critdam Celestial gives me, at the same time I *never * – not once – expected it to stay this way. The gear was obviously meant to be allstat gear, yet it wasn’t (for most slots, a side-effect of the uneven crit scaling).

And I find it really difficult to believe that others never thought that. I mean to compare, say you were to look at a hypothetical gear which has only two stats – but both primary. Yes it’d be useful for some things, and probably pretty pretty bad for a lot of others.
And would you expect it to stay that way? Probably not. :P

It adds that in this case Celestial has a clear “theme”. Allstat-gear. Not “Crit with some extra stats”-gear. That’s how it works right now – especially on trinkets – but now that it spread to more slots I can see how it’s becoming a development issue (it was before but acceptable due to limited availability).

Theme > gameplay ….makes sense…
I hope that male characters will be unable to wear valkirye…its as bad from a lore standpoint since valkyrie in literature were supposed to be female …..

If you want to know what people expect from celestial is to have:
-a midground DPS and defense between defensive sets and offensive

Crit damage was the only way to do that

You should not lose too much damage compared to PVT and Knight…that are meta defensive sets…instead you should be midground….(that would require some serious buff maybe too much for defensive stats if you want stat parity).

There are also useless set as magi etc, and it seems you desire celestial to be in that League…

The issue is nerfing a BASE stat put in the game at release…and then trying to preserve lore….. -.-

If you want to obtain that you have either to buff celestial stats to an insane level or remove vitality and thoughness etc and replace them with new stats that scale less.

Or instead devs could just convert crit damage as zojjia so celestial get the same % nerf expected from the purpose of the patch without making it useless because few players want the lore….. (and even this would hit celestial hard…making it even less popular than today…)