Changes to trait system. Diversity.

Changes to trait system. Diversity.

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Posted by: frostnuggets.6471

frostnuggets.6471

Hey there. I hope this ideia isn’t stupid, but here it goes. I will split it up in different topics, so that people can agree/disagree partially and etc.
The main purposes of those suggestions are: build diversity and freedom.Of course, those changes would have to be followed by proper balancing. I won’t discuss about those balances because it would break the purpose of the post. Moving on…

1- why are there minor traits? It is like you MUST have the trait X to be able to get the Y, even if you don’t need or want the X. It doesn’t feel good when you put 6 points on a trait line and you are obligated to stick to 3 unchangeable minor traits. So, couldn’t all traits work like the current system’s major traits? This way, you would be able to choose exactly the traits you want. Thus, more freedom and build diversity.

2- why to split adept, master and grandmaster traits? Sometimes, you really want the grandmaster trait X, but you don’t want most of the minor traits and the adept/master traits that come before. Or you want to equip 2 of the grandmaster traits of the same line, which is impossible. So, couldn’t the effectiveness of the trait be determined by the slot it occupies, plain and simple? For example: you have a trait X that gives you +50 power (example) if used at an adept slot. But, if you put it in a master slot, it would give you +100 power, and +150 for the grandmaster slot. This way, you would be able to have, for example, 2 master and 1 grandmaster traits (considering the current system and nomenclature) equipped, and their effect/bonus would scale accordingly to the slot it is equipped in.

3- about the innate attributes when upgrading a trait line. Sometimes, you don’t want that faster burst regeneration, or the increased boon duration. What if you wanted more power and condition duration, for example? Couldn’t those attributes gained from investing trait point be selected by the player, at least until a certain degree? Lets say i put 6 points in a line. This line allows me to choose between +X condi, precision, ferocity or power. This way, builds would be, again, more diversified and specific to the role you want to play.

I hope I’ve made myself clear. And I hope that I didn’t sound dumb.
Thanks guys, hope you like at least a piece of it :>

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Posted by: The Game Slayer.7632

The Game Slayer.7632

I completely agree. I made a post about this months ago. It didn’t get too much attention, but this would certainly spice the game up a lot. Maybe they could add new traits for minor traits and allow us to pick them. I think the game might not be ready for such a huge change to minor traits with regards to being able to pick already existing traits in place of the minor ones.

So, new minor traits to pick from in each line, yes. Please.

I am a teef
:)

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Posted by: NeXeD.3042

NeXeD.3042

Changes like this would need the entire game to be rebalanced…

Attention Moderators I am not
S P E E D Starr #0 Necro NA or
I Am NeXeD awful d/D ele NA

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Posted by: Swish.2463

Swish.2463

Hey there. I hope this ideia isn’t stupid, but here it goes. I will split it up in different topics, so that people can agree/disagree partially and etc.
The main purposes of those suggestions are: build diversity and freedom.Of course, those changes would have to be followed by proper balancing. I won’t discuss about those balances because it would break the purpose of the post. Moving on…

1- why are there minor traits? It is like you MUST have the trait X to be able to get the Y, even if you don’t need or want the X. It doesn’t feel good when you put 6 points on a trait line and you are obligated to stick to 3 unchangeable minor traits. So, couldn’t all traits work like the current system’s major traits? This way, you would be able to choose exactly the traits you want. Thus, more freedom and build diversity.

not a bad idea but let’s get all the useless traits fixed with this too.. maybe before hand

2- why to split adept, master and grandmaster traits? Sometimes, you really want the grandmaster trait X, but you don’t want most of the minor traits and the adept/master traits that come before. Or you want to equip 2 of the grandmaster traits of the same line, which is impossible. So, couldn’t the effectiveness of the trait be determined by the slot it occupies, plain and simple? For example: you have a trait X that gives you +50 power (example) if used at an adept slot. But, if you put it in a master slot, it would give you +100 power, and +150 for the grandmaster slot. This way, you would be able to have, for example, 2 master and 1 grandmaster traits (considering the current system and nomenclature) equipped, and their effect/bonus would scale accordingly to the slot it is equipped in.

This is how things were during the beta’s and guess what the most popular builds were? builds that used what are now, all Grand Master Traits most often it was 10/10/10/10/10/ that was the most OP. It was changed to the current system so that someone didn’t have access to all the best things and had to take some kitten along with 1 good thing instead. balance..

3- about the innate attributes when upgrading a trait line. Sometimes, you don’t want that faster burst regeneration, or the increased boon duration. What if you wanted more power and condition duration, for example? Couldn’t those attributes gained from investing trait point be selected by the player, at least until a certain degree? Lets say i put 6 points in a line. This line allows me to choose between +X condi, precision, ferocity or power. This way, builds would be, again, more diversified and specific to the role you want to play.

while i agree that tieing stats to trait lines was stupid, your suggestion would easily allow for some very lopsided and OP stuff to happen. imagine a thief that only picks power/power/power/ferocity/ferocity/power from its trait line bonuses, or a necro on an already tanky build just grabbing more HP and Toughness.

Yes it’s a pain to have useless stats but anet set it up like it is and kept it as restrictive as it is to avoid having to put any large amount of thought or work into maintaining balance in Gw2. While I find that to be lazy and unimaginative Design, it’s what we got.

~Elyssion~
“Gw2, It’s still on the Table!” – Anet

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Posted by: frostnuggets.6471

frostnuggets.6471

Well, the useless traits are really annoying, too. I agree, they should be fixed.
About the suggestion number 2, that change to grandmaster traits should be made with proper balancing. Maybe a limitation of a certain class of traits? Or just changing numbers, as I said before, idk.
And yeah, about the number 3, preventing this kind of OP builds would need, again, proper balancing and mechanics. Maybe a limitation (again) of points per attribute? I mean, c’mon… For example, I am using a greatsword with my warrior, and I want the slashing power master trait… 4 points spent = 200 power and +20% condition duration… Really, i dont want that condition duration bonus. There are plenty of other examples for every suggestion, of course. But I guess you are right. It’s what we got, and I highly doubt they will consider changing it.

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Posted by: Thaddeus.4891

Thaddeus.4891

1) I agree. It would be nice to have 6 major trait to choose and no minor trait. So you are not stuck with a minor trait that don’t help you at all in a particular situation.

2) I disagree. Adept/Master/Grandmaster allow for more powerful traits. If there is no distinction each trait need to be equal in strength. Its about balance and it’s ok like it is now. Maybe by giving more different possibilities in adept and master trait will allow you to always have a good trait if you really want a specific grandmaster, but they shouldn’t remove the distinction.

3) That would also be nice but… I like the idea of choosing the best stats that I need. But at the same time, make the choose between the best stats vs the best trait is a huge part of creating a good build. Either way are good for me.

Thaddeauz [xQCx]- QC GUILD

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Posted by: NinjaEd.3946

NinjaEd.3946

Changes like this would need the entire game to be rebalanced

It’s not like the game is balanced atm. I mean sure things aren’t going to be picture perfect but there are a number of cancerous builds and a laundry list of “kitten?” builds that do not see the day of light.

I think it’s quite pathetic that any “tournament” matchup people aren’t running unique builds, they’re running the popular builds. I don’t blame those players, I blame the build choice out there that is viable in a team setting. No player should be forced down any build just to be useful even in tpvp, the range (mathematical term…) is far to great atm. Same with max health but that’s another can of worms for another thread.

“I’m waiting for the staff to get off their lunch
break. I feel like they should be back by now..”

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Posted by: Olba.5376

Olba.5376

1- why are there minor traits? It is like you MUST have the trait X to be able to get the Y, even if you don’t need or want the X. It doesn’t feel good when you put 6 points on a trait line and you are obligated to stick to 3 unchangeable minor traits. So, couldn’t all traits work like the current system’s major traits? This way, you would be able to choose exactly the traits you want. Thus, more freedom and build diversity.

2- why to split adept, master and grandmaster traits? Sometimes, you really want the grandmaster trait X, but you don’t want most of the minor traits and the adept/master traits that come before. Or you want to equip 2 of the grandmaster traits of the same line, which is impossible. So, couldn’t the effectiveness of the trait be determined by the slot it occupies, plain and simple? For example: you have a trait X that gives you +50 power (example) if used at an adept slot. But, if you put it in a master slot, it would give you +100 power, and +150 for the grandmaster slot. This way, you would be able to have, for example, 2 master and 1 grandmaster traits (considering the current system and nomenclature) equipped, and their effect/bonus would scale accordingly to the slot it is equipped in.

3- about the innate attributes when upgrading a trait line. Sometimes, you don’t want that faster burst regeneration, or the increased boon duration. What if you wanted more power and condition duration, for example? Couldn’t those attributes gained from investing trait point be selected by the player, at least until a certain degree? Lets say i put 6 points in a line. This line allows me to choose between +X condi, precision, ferocity or power. This way, builds would be, again, more diversified and specific to the role you want to play.

  1. There’s plenty of minor traits that are extremely useful. Adrenal Health, Fast Hands, Renewed Justice, Vigorous Precision, Inspired Virtue, Meld with Shadows, Feline Grace, Preparedness, Healing Ripple. There’s also plenty of useless minor traits and some that are a downright hindrance. Let’s say you removed all minor traits. What this would do is break a ton of builds and professions (Thief and Warrior in particular), while lowering the overall diversity of the professions. Another option would be to do away with Minor/Major classification and allowing you to select up to 6 traits per line as you please. This would break a ton of things, as you’d now be able to get stuff like 2 Grandmaster traits. On the other hand, if you simply allowed people to select each minor trait from the full pool of traits, it would still cause balance issues, not to mention that it wouldn’t fix the bad minor traits.
  2. The split is for balance reasons. Currently, the traits are balanced so that you can only have 1 Grandmaster trait per tree or up to 2 Master traits or up to 3 Adept traits. And if you only have to put 2 points per line to get access to Grandmaster traits, you wouldn’t see any builds with 6 points to a traitline, you’d see most going with 2 in everything.
  3. Yet again, those distinctions are for balance. In PVE, the most popular stat combination is Berserker. If you could choose your stat combinations, you would see everyone running with the same combinations. And yes, there are some combinations that should never happen. For example, Guardians getting Ferocity minor from Radiance would increase their damage output significantly. Ditto for Warriors on Strength. And what makes you think that a Steal-based Thief wouldn’t take Power as a major instead of Condi damage? The fact is, builds are made from the traits, not the stats. Changing the stats would amount to a massive buff to everyone, more so in some cases than others.

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Posted by: coglin.1867

coglin.1867

Part of the problem here as I see it, is deciding whose opinion of traits count? I have seen some threads claiming traits as OP, that are useless to me and the builds I like to play. As well as threads declaring certain traits as useless the at I find to be of very high value.

A video on what weak PvPer’s and WvWer’s want.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6q3em9s5I4c

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Posted by: Leo G.4501

Leo G.4501

And yeah, about the number 3, preventing this kind of OP builds would need, again, proper balancing and mechanics. Maybe a limitation (again) of points per attribute? I mean, c’mon… For example, I am using a greatsword with my warrior, and I want the slashing power master trait… 4 points spent = 200 power and +20% condition duration… Really, i dont want that condition duration bonus. There are plenty of other examples for every suggestion, of course. But I guess you are right. It’s what we got, and I highly doubt they will consider changing it.

IMO, those extra stat points are simply bonuses. Your choice to min-max the bonus stats will have to be set against your choice to min-max traits. That’s usually how mechanical RPGs are balanced because real RPGs are balanced by a GM who can choose to balance things in various ways, possibly to include changing the types of encounters to make such min-maxing to be ill suited compared to a more generalized build.

Also, that 20% condition duration isn’t getting wasted. You get 20% longer cripples with your greatsword. It’s your choice to take advantage of those bonus stats or not.

This is how things were during the beta’s and guess what the most popular builds were? builds that used what are now, all Grand Master Traits most often it was 10/10/10/10/10/ that was the most OP. It was changed to the current system so that someone didn’t have access to all the best things and had to take some kitten along with 1 good thing instead. balance..

Well, to the OP’s defense, he did suggest varying intensities on traits depending on what ‘slot’ (Adept, Master & Grandmaster) which wasn’t in the beta.

IF it were changed so that any trait of that line can be placed in any slot, it might be possible to work but really, what I’d be interested in is seeing how you could power up certain Adept traits when slotted in Grandmaster. I think that would be the appeal of the suggestion, don’t you think? It’s saying the ‘Grandmaster’ slot is what makes the trait good, not just being labled ‘Grandmaster’ and limiting when you can get it. If the Grandmaster slot is what makes things good, that opens up lots of new possible builds if, for instance, a less used trait like Cull the Weak gained more attributes like “Apply Weakness when taking a hit in melee range” and “Occasionally block hits from weakened opponents” if slotted as Grandmaster.

However, along the reverse path, slotting stuff like Brawler’s Recovery in the adept slot may only remove Weakness or Poison when swapping weapons, slotted in the Master it’d also remove bleed or chilled then finally, when placed in the GM slot it would simply remove any 1 condition.

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Posted by: caveman.5840

caveman.5840

i would love a new trait system just to change up the game

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Posted by: frostnuggets.6471

frostnuggets.6471

Olba.5376, in response to the n. 1: I didn’t suggest that the minor traits themselves should be removed, nor that all of them are useless/weak. I think the way it works isn’t ok as it is now, because you are stuck with unchangeable traits. Think about it: you spend 6 point in a line, then you are stuck with 3 traits that, sometimes, you don’t want/need at all. It breaks build diversity and may result in balance issues. Same goes for the innate attributes for each trait line. Regarding n. 2, I think it would be viable with proper adjustments to the quality of each trait and the position it occupies. More builds, more freedom and less “stuck with bad traits”. Or maybe they could just offer more variation of traits per line.
About n. 3: yes, if people could choose ~~freely~~ which stat they wanted, it would become a mess. But maybe a bit more of control over those stats would be beneficial.

Leo G.4501, you got the idea of the slots right. I’d love to see this new realm of variation. Changing the slot a trait occupies could change the numeric values (cool down, bonuses, etc) or add/remove more effects, just like you said. About the innate attributes, I still think it could use a bit more of freedom, especially considering the secondary stats, that don’t raise as you level up (only through equipments, skills, traits, etc).

ps: I don’t know how to quote. Sorry :<

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Posted by: Mikau.6920

Mikau.6920

Whould be interesting to change the minor traits (In adept line, you could change to any adept trait and so on).

But what they really must do is change the useless traits. There is a lot of useless traits. Also are weapons there are too weak as well.

Sorry for my english.

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Posted by: Olba.5376

Olba.5376

Olba.5376, in response to the n. 1: I didn’t suggest that the minor traits themselves should be removed, nor that all of them are useless/weak. I think the way it works isn’t ok as it is now, because you are stuck with unchangeable traits. Think about it: you spend 6 point in a line, then you are stuck with 3 traits that, sometimes, you don’t want/need at all. It breaks build diversity and may result in balance issues.

Oh please. Breaks build diversity? You know the players in this game, they would take about a day to come up with a meta setup for PvE, PvP and WvW and then… nothing would have changed. Except that all of those builds would have gotten stronger. Which would apply to all the builds of all the professions in the game. Which would be a literal power creep. Which is kind of a bad, bad thing.

As for balance issues, I just finished making the point that being able to pick your minor traits in any manner (being able to choose a minor adept/master/grandmaster trait from the current pool of all adept/master/grandmaster minor traits of your profession or being outright able to choose any minor trait on any slot) would completely break the game. This is because traits are inherently build defining. There are tons of minor traits that are included in most builds because of how good they are.

Regarding n. 2, I think it would be viable with proper adjustments to the quality of each trait and the position it occupies. More builds, more freedom and less “stuck with bad traits”. Or maybe they could just offer more variation of traits per line.

Which would require redesigning the entirety of the trait system in the game. And that’s not only going to kitten off everyone, it’s almost most likely going to kitten up the balance for months.

If your goal is to get rid of “useless traits”, then say so. It’s a much easier goal.

About n. 3: yes, if people could choose ~~freely~~ which stat they wanted, it would become a mess. But maybe a bit more of control over those stats would be beneficial.

The thing is, our balance is based around those stats not being selectable. Some combinations of stats from traits are fine for one profession, but broken on another. For example, Precision and Ferocity being in the same line is ok for a Thief, but broken on a Warrior because the latter has better base defenses.

The only way I could see your idea working is if it was heavily conditioned. That is to say, stuff like:

  • Being able to change your secondary stat from Condition Damage to something else if none of your weapon skills apply a damaging condition
  • Being able to change your secondary stat from Boon Duration to something else if your character has access to very few boons
  • Being able to change your secondary stat from Ferocity to something else if your Critical % is below some threshold
  • Being able to change your secondary stat from Healing Power to something else if you have no healing outside of the Healing Skill
  • Being able to change your secondary stat from Condition Duration to something else if your character has no access to conditions whatsoever

Of course, all of these would be completely and utterly broken in group content. Which is kind of my point: Either you accept the massive spike in power and upset in balance that would come with selectable traits and stats, or you just don’t do it in the first place.

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Posted by: Bran.7425

Bran.7425

I think there still needs to be further refinement of the current traits as many are unaltered from the beta weekend before the tier were set.

Pets have been hidden due to rising Player complaints.

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Posted by: Boro.7359

Boro.7359

At this point Olban, citing Balance Reasons for a system that’s not only imbalanced, but also neglected for two years is ridiculous, given that the only changes were removing stuff from low-leveled characters.

And just to list what Arenanet has done for balance reasons, starting from right the first concept view we got into the game.
1: Weapon skills (rotations) linked to the weapon, no ifs, no buts, you take one weapon, you’re stuck with one rotation.
2: Free attribute selection removed, alongside free trait selection (as seen in the woodenpotatoes video somebody linked in the zerker meta talk thread right around the next corner)
3: Traits have been changed towards an even more restrictive system with the condensation of trait points, and further screwing up leveling characters.
4: Underwater combat skills locked until level 8. Seriously.
5: Weapon skill unlocks tied to leveling, panning out till level 10, giving us even less ways to play the character early game.

And this doesn’t even account for their abysmal monster and dungeon design further removing about 80% of the playing options from group play.

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Posted by: Cenile.8340

Cenile.8340

What if you couldn’t access the Grandmaster traits unless you had 6pts in the tree, but then you could use all three at once?
Would mean that people would have to spec deep into a tree to access the traits so you wouldn’t have 2pt grandmaster traits.

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Posted by: Olba.5376

Olba.5376

At this point Olban, citing Balance Reasons for a system that’s not only imbalanced, but also neglected for two years is ridiculous, given that the only changes were removing stuff from low-leveled characters.

So wanting to prevent further imbalance in an imbalanced system is somehow bad? So everyone should just strip naked, dance around the fire and howl madly because none of it matters anymore and we’re all doomed anyway?

And just to list what Arenanet has done for balance reasons, starting from right the first concept view we got into the game.
1: Weapon skills (rotations) linked to the weapon, no ifs, no buts, you take one weapon, you’re stuck with one rotation.
2: Free attribute selection removed, alongside free trait selection (as seen in the woodenpotatoes video somebody linked in the zerker meta talk thread right around the next corner)
3: Traits have been changed towards an even more restrictive system with the condensation of trait points, and further screwing up leveling characters.
4: Underwater combat skills locked until level 8. Seriously.
5: Weapon skill unlocks tied to leveling, panning out till level 10, giving us even less ways to play the character early game.

  1. Rotations that only exist in PvE. And balancing in PvE largely consists of tweaking numbers. In PvP, using a clear-cut rotation makes you very easy to read, predict and interrupt.
  2. “Removed”? How can you remove something that was never in the game?
  3. That’s NPE. It has nothing to do with balance.
  4. Again, that’s NPE and has nothing to do with balance.
  5. Why the heck are you so stuck on complaining about the NPE when it does not relate to balance?

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Posted by: Leo G.4501

Leo G.4501

Which would require redesigning the entirety of the trait system in the game. And that’s not only going to kitten off everyone, it’s almost most likely going to kitten up the balance for months.

So?

As long as the end result is an improvement, does any of that really matter?

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Posted by: frostnuggets.6471

frostnuggets.6471

Oh please. Breaks build diversity? You know the players in this game, they would take about a day to come up with a meta setup for PvE, PvP and WvW and then… nothing would have changed. Except that all of those builds would have gotten stronger. Which would apply to all the builds of all the professions in the game. Which would be a literal power creep. Which is kind of a bad, bad thing.

As long as more “meta setups” become possible, I think it would be beneficial. I mean, there are meta setups already, so what would be the difference? More viable setups? Sounds ok to me.

As for balance issues, I just finished making the point that being able to pick your minor traits in any manner (being able to choose a minor adept/master/grandmaster trait from the current pool of all adept/master/grandmaster minor traits of your profession or being outright able to choose any minor trait on any slot) would completely break the game. This is because traits are inherently build defining. There are tons of minor traits that are included in most builds because of how good they are.

Well, if you consider – and I cannot question this – that “traits are inherently build defining” and that this is the reason why minor traits shouldn’t be change-able, I think this makes the system even worse. It makes creating a build more complicated, requiring more knowledge and etc. Ok, that is cool, indeed. But you are stuck, again, with less diversity and nonviable setups.

Which would require redesigning the entirety of the trait system in the game. And that’s not only going to kitten off everyone, it’s almost most likely going to kitten up the balance for months.

Man, even Tibia (remember that old guy?) is going through major changes. I think changing can be very good for games, especially if they ~need~ changes – I am not talking about my suggestions only, of course -.

If your goal is to get rid of “useless traits”, then say so. It’s a much easier goal.

Well, that would be good too.

The thing is, our balance is based around those stats not being selectable. Some combinations of stats from traits are fine for one profession, but broken on another. For example, Precision and Ferocity being in the same line is ok for a Thief, but broken on a Warrior because the latter has better base defenses.

The only way I could see your idea working is if it was heavily conditioned. That is to say, stuff like:

  • Being able to change your secondary stat from Condition Damage to something else if none of your weapon skills apply a damaging condition
  • Being able to change your secondary stat from Boon Duration to something else if your character has access to very few boons
  • Being able to change your secondary stat from Ferocity to something else if your Critical % is below some threshold
  • Being able to change your secondary stat from Healing Power to something else if you have no healing outside of the Healing Skill
  • Being able to change your secondary stat from Condition Duration to something else if your character has no access to conditions whatsoever

Well, exactly. I am not saying it should be like “EMAHGERD GET ALL THE POWERZ AN PRECISION”. I am saying that there should be more freedom when choosing those stats, considering of course proper balancing to avoid things like “imba zerkers”. You gave some cool ideas there, btw. Like changing the “boon duration” if you don’t have access to that much of boons. That’s what I am doing here: suggesting changes, but not specifying how exactly they should be done. Balance issues are discussed at later stages, I think. And proper balancing and discussions would, of course, be needed if those changes were to be made.

Of course, all of these would be completely and utterly broken in group content. Which is kind of my point: Either you accept the massive spike in power and upset in balance that would come with selectable traits and stats, or you just don’t do it in the first place.

You are assuming things wouldn’t be balanced at all, don’t you? The idea I have here is like: “oh, we should change X to Y, because blablabla, not forgetting proper balancing”. How the X would be converted to Y is more complicated and requires more depth of arguments, which would take more time.

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Posted by: IndigoSundown.5419

IndigoSundown.5419

1- why are there minor traits?

2- why to split adept, master and grandmaster traits?

3- about the innate attributes when upgrading a trait line

  1. The best arguments for the minor traits as is are that sometimes players will create builds with odd numbers of trait points rather than even. For example, warrior 05063.
  2. Ideally, the grandmaster traits should be more powerful and more desirable than the lower tier traits. This creates a situation where there are opportunity costs and trade-offs, since you cannot get more than 2 GM traits. That there are lackluster adept/mastery traits, or adept/mastery traits that would only apply to specific types of builds, where the GM trait is useful for a build that needs/wants none of the adept/master traits is indicative of poor design. This is in all likelihood a result of Anet’s attempts to pigeonhole trait lines. The better solution to this issue is to rework the adept/master traits to provide more diverse options, which keeps the trade-offs at the GM trait level.
  3. This is, again, about trade-offs and opportunity costs. Allowing players to have everything they want with no trade-offs is not good design.

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Posted by: Bran.7425

Bran.7425

1- why are there minor traits?

2- why to split adept, master and grandmaster traits?

3- about the innate attributes when upgrading a trait line

  1. The best arguments for the minor traits as is are that sometimes players will create builds with odd numbers of trait points rather than even. For example, warrior 05063.
  2. Ideally, the grandmaster traits should be more powerful and more desirable than the lower tier traits. This creates a situation where there are opportunity costs and trade-offs, since you cannot get more than 2 GM traits. That there are lackluster adept/mastery traits, or adept/mastery traits that would only apply to specific types of builds, where the GM trait is useful for a build that needs/wants none of the adept/master traits is indicative of poor design. This is in all likelihood a result of Anet’s attempts to pigeonhole trait lines. The better solution to this issue is to rework the adept/master traits to provide more diverse options, which keeps the trade-offs at the GM trait level.
  3. This is, again, about trade-offs and opportunity costs. Allowing players to have everything they want with no trade-offs is not good design.

The whole minor trait thing feels more like they were created and then odd number build came about.

During the second beta week (if I recall correctly) the traits were tiered, but haphazardly as we have seen over the course of two years movement as some traits were not too strong at the level they were placed, other too weak and many just inferior version of one designed for other profession (some were normalized, but by and large that in my opinion was a mistake, but different, but equal is not an easy thing to do).

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Posted by: IndigoSundown.5419

IndigoSundown.5419

1- why are there minor traits?

2- why to split adept, master and grandmaster traits?

3- about the innate attributes when upgrading a trait line

  1. The best arguments for the minor traits as is are that sometimes players will create builds with odd numbers of trait points rather than even. For example, warrior 05063.
  2. Ideally, the grandmaster traits should be more powerful and more desirable than the lower tier traits. This creates a situation where there are opportunity costs and trade-offs, since you cannot get more than 2 GM traits. That there are lackluster adept/mastery traits, or adept/mastery traits that would only apply to specific types of builds, where the GM trait is useful for a build that needs/wants none of the adept/master traits is indicative of poor design. This is in all likelihood a result of Anet’s attempts to pigeonhole trait lines. The better solution to this issue is to rework the adept/master traits to provide more diverse options, which keeps the trade-offs at the GM trait level.
  3. This is, again, about trade-offs and opportunity costs. Allowing players to have everything they want with no trade-offs is not good design.

The whole minor trait thing feels more like they were created and then odd number build came about.

Assuredly. I doubt ANet envisioned all of the builds that have been created by players, despite their attempts to pigeon-hole trait lines.

During the second beta week (if I recall correctly) the traits were tiered, but haphazardly as we have seen over the course of two years movement as some traits were not too strong at the level they were placed, other too weak and many just inferior version of one designed for other profession (some were normalized, but by and large that in my opinion was a mistake, but different, but equal is not an easy thing to do).

Some of the existing traits sill seem haphazard. I’d be happy if they were all revisited, though I would not support changes that remove trade-offs.

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Posted by: Bran.7425

Bran.7425

By the very nature of the trait system it is all trade-offs, but there is a lot of trait bloat that exist as for any given play mode there are going to be ‘right’ answers.

The minor traits (unless they do some sort of overhaul that allow for switching them out for other options) are definitely needing a review if they are going to be the backbone of their lines.

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Posted by: IndigoSundown.5419

IndigoSundown.5419

By the very nature of the trait system it is all trade-offs, but there is a lot of trait bloat that exist as for any given play mode there are going to be ‘right’ answers.

The minor traits (unless they do some sort of overhaul that allow for switching them out for other options) are definitely needing a review if they are going to be the backbone of their lines.

I wouldn’t stress that point about trade-offs, except for the OP. Agree that some of the minors need to be looked at.

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Posted by: frostnuggets.6471

frostnuggets.6471

Well, that “trade-off” argument makes sense. But I still think (as other ppl posted here) that the traits need some kind of revision. Useless/imbalanced/weak traits and s**t. I am kind of new to the game (started in august, but played a considerable amount since then), so I’d like to ask: do you think the guys at Anet will do any kind of changes to the traits anytime soon? I don’t know if this is a recurring topic (traits), so…

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Posted by: Leo G.4501

Leo G.4501

I think most of the banter you get on the forums about traits is in regards to the trait acquisition system implemented and how people think it should be changed back to how it originally was.

People always talk about making revisions to the trait system and more rarely they talk about additions. If Anet makes any changes (and they often do) to traits, it is likely small revisions like number tweeks or adjustments to internal cooldowns. Much less common, they change the order of traits such as making a Grandmaster trait a Master Trait.

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Posted by: caveman.5840

caveman.5840

trim the fat replace with lean muscle

there is way to many unused traits
or lack luster trait lines

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Posted by: Ragnar the Rock.3174

Ragnar the Rock.3174

trim the fat replace with lean muscle

there is way to many unused traits
or lack luster trait lines

This^

On my guardian & Necro a good half of the traits range from either being lack luster to making me wonder WTF were they thing when they designed this.

As for the idea of the OP, having alternate minor traits would add a ton of diversity & build options. Something most of us want.

However it would also be extremely complicated & pain in the kitten to balance.

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Posted by: Ragnar the Rock.3174

Ragnar the Rock.3174

Well, that “trade-off” argument makes sense. But I still think (as other ppl posted here) that the traits need some kind of revision. Useless/imbalanced/weak traits and s**t. I am kind of new to the game (started in august, but played a considerable amount since then), so I’d like to ask: do you think the guys at Anet will do any kind of changes to the traits anytime soon? I don’t know if this is a recurring topic (traits), so…

Who knows.

Read a article the other day that their corporate owners gave them at least a hundred million $ a short while back to further development on Arena.net projects.
So it’s possible they could be planning to hire allot of staff & create a ton of content.
Or it could be possible they plan to blow it all on coke & hookers, anybody’s guess.

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Posted by: Paavotar.3971

Paavotar.3971

Regardin #2:

Dogged March adept trait is 33% reduction on move impairs. I hope this means that with this change it would become 33% / 66% / 99%.

MUAHAHAHAHA! CATCH ME NOW SUCKERS!

A Pink scumbag of [FACE] and deep inside a [GuM]ster
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Posted by: Carighan.6758

Carighan.6758

I could do with any of the following 3 trait implementations:

  • Can’t have it all. All 13+ traits of a traitline specifically target one type of class mechanic or element. Say, clone generation and shatter for Mesmer Illusions. Only, no trait outside of Illusions affects this, and all 13 traits in it do. I can pick 3, I’d want 13 if I play a shatter spec.
  • Full specialization. My least favourite, but also the easiest. All trait lines have very varied traits allowing a full pick of 7 traits which fully benefit my chosen area of expertise. If I want to play a shatter build I could go 6 in Chaos, 6 in Inspiration and 2 in Illusions and yet I’d still have a fully viable set of picks to go with. This is what they’re sorta doing right now, this doesn’t work because of minor traits and this is also pretty meh as it removes choice.
  • Trivial choices. This is actually pretty clever. If the trait choices ultimately matter very little ,then a lot of room opens up. For one, you no longer have 4-5 good skills and 40+ unspecced ones you’ll never use, independent of spec any Mesmer could go shatter-crazy if the fight requires it. One would be slightly better, but we’d be talking 10%-15% variance, not 100%-300% like now.
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