Guild Wars 2

Hopefully you guys fix when thief’s are chilled they have 66% slower initiative gain. Kinda bs that they are immune to a type of condition. Maybe its too hard for you to code lol?

They are immune to chill, and they are immune to interrupts.

Initiative is basically what every class should have gotten.

Chill impacting initiative isn’t as easy as applying a reduction to initiative gain. If it did the 66 percent reduction to recharge all thieves would instantly lose when they have chill applied to them for 4 seconds or more.

They would use their initiative and not regen enough to stealth or escape. Meaning the only option they have is to run away vs professions that chill.

In a team fight you chill the thief and they would be done.

The reason thieves would be so susceptible to chill is bcs the design is for initiative to support hit and run. Chill would reduce your resources by more than half meaning your only option is hit Or run, aka die or run.

Lol. My thief is immune to lots of things. It’s how poorly balanced stealth is.

Shockwave.1230:

Chill impacting initiative isn’t as easy as applying a reduction to initiative gain. If it did the 66 percent reduction to recharge all thieves would instantly lose when they have chill applied to them for 4 seconds or more.

They would use their initiative and not regen enough to stealth or escape. Meaning the only option they have is to run away vs professions that chill.

In a team fight you chill the thief and they would be done.

The reason thieves would be so susceptible to chill is bcs the design is for initiative to support hit and run. Chill would reduce your resources by more than half meaning your only option is hit Or run, aka die or run.

You mean they would have to clear the chill away before doing anything which would stop them from bursting down alot of classes and play a bit more carefully?yeh that would be hard for them.

Every other profession chilled has at least 5 different weapon skills counting down at the same time and most still have other weapons, attunements and kits.

i rather this thread said,

" All Conditions and Thiefs "

sound way much better, wouldn’t you agree??

(Balance… No Need To Apply, for this class)

balmung.6217:

Shockwave.1230:

Chill impacting initiative isn’t as easy as applying a reduction to initiative gain. If it did the 66 percent reduction to recharge all thieves would instantly lose when they have chill applied to them for 4 seconds or more.

They would use their initiative and not regen enough to stealth or escape. Meaning the only option they have is to run away vs professions that chill.

In a team fight you chill the thief and they would be done.

The reason thieves would be so susceptible to chill is bcs the design is for initiative to support hit and run. Chill would reduce your resources by more than half meaning your only option is hit Or run, aka die or run.

You mean they would have to clear the chill away before doing anything which would stop them from bursting down alot of classes and play a bit more carefully?yeh that would be hard for them.

You’re right it would be hard. Especially vs necromancers, Rangers, and elementalists that have more access to chill.

Team fights involving those professions a thief potentially couldn’t be involved in unless they have withdraw or roll for initiative on cool down. Those two skills would potentially be mandatory on a thief bar too, since thief has limited condition removal.

balmung.6217:

Shockwave.1230:

Chill impacting initiative isn’t as easy as applying a reduction to initiative gain. If it did the 66 percent reduction to recharge all thieves would instantly lose when they have chill applied to them for 4 seconds or more.

They would use their initiative and not regen enough to stealth or escape. Meaning the only option they have is to run away vs professions that chill.

In a team fight you chill the thief and they would be done.

The reason thieves would be so susceptible to chill is bcs the design is for initiative to support hit and run. Chill would reduce your resources by more than half meaning your only option is hit Or run, aka die or run.

You mean they would have to clear the chill away before doing anything which would stop them from bursting down alot of classes and play a bit more carefully?yeh that would be hard for them.

So it’s either cleanse or die/ be completely useless? pretty harsh for a simple control condi don’t you think?

BobbyT.7192:

So it’s either cleanse or die/ be completely useless? pretty harsh for a simple control condi don’t you think?

Or get some skill and learn to dodge the chill as many a thief has said regarding stealth.

The reduction in mobility is already pretty potent seeing as it applies to gap-closing effects. 66% reduction in regen for what’s necessary for all skill use is bit severe.

I’d rather see it applied to reveal time, bumping it to 5s.

DeceiverX.8361:

The reduction in mobility is already pretty potent seeing as it applies to gap-closing effects. 66% reduction in regen for what’s necessary for all skill use is bit severe.

I’d rather see it applied to reveal time, bumping it to 5s.

What makes Thieves so special that they should be left out of the fun of Chill that other professions get to enjoy? Thieves have ample condition removal and evasions.

LegendaryLukeee.1462:

Hopefully you guys fix when thief’s are chilled they have 66% slower initiative gain. Kinda bs that they are immune to a type of condition. Maybe its too hard for you to code lol?

If they are chilled then they are barely moving. If you can’t hit a turtle then maybe pvp isn’t for you.

Sanduskel.1850:

Lol. My warrior is immune to lots of things. It’s how poorly balanced warrior is.

fixed*

Zacchary.6183:

If they are chilled then they are barely moving. If you can’t hit a turtle then maybe pvp isn’t for you.

If you can’t think of ways to get around Chill as a Thief, then maybe PvP is not for you.

Depends on what you’re analyzing frankly.

The sPvP thief build meta is very solid whereas other forms of PvP, such as WvW, are very different. 30/30/0/0/10 is a trash build in sPvP but someone with this build (or even better my personal 25/30/0/0/15 one) can prove to be extremely, extremely deadly on the WvW field. The sPvP meta 10/30/30/0/0 is pretty resilient to chill, whereas pretty much anything outside of a SA build won’t be. Increasing the revealed time also inhibits P/D rejuv builds in sPvP – which makes it a major direct counter to high stealth uptime, and S/P is scrubby and should only ever do well against baddies who can’t dodge, as a mobility penalty already prevents dying to PW spam.

People should re-read the initiative page.

Initiative is the mechanic for thief weapon skill cool-downs. Chill affects weapon cool-downs. Ergo, it makes total sense that chill affects initiative regeneration.

ATMAvatar.5749:

People should re-read the initiative page.

Initiative is the mechanic for thief weapon skill cool-downs. Chill affects weapon cool-downs. Ergo, it makes total sense that chill affects initiative regeneration.

all it said it that it replaces cooldown mechanic, nothing about it being it ;P

I dont think chill effecting initiative regerneration will come any time soon. There was a post about that and a dev wrote that chill did infact effect initaitive regeneration at one point but they felt it was to powerful against thieves.

This is like with the necro and healing in ds, they felt it was too powerful but as result the game mechanics become weird.

It should definitely have an impact on init regeneration, and definitely not on ele attunement swapping. The point is to slow down skill use, which it successfully does for all classes except thieves, the snare is an added bonus. And it’s really the only thing to slow down those stability hammer trains.

There are overreactions in this thread, a thief will lose 1 condi just for entering stealth and then 1 every 3 seconds whilst in stealth.

Having said that it would need internal testing, 66% is possibly too much. But not being impacted by the condi at all outside the snare has no parity with the effect on other classes and the anus reaming it gives Eles.

ATMAvatar.5749:

People should re-read the initiative page.

Initiative is the mechanic for thief weapon skill cool-downs. Chill affects weapon cool-downs. Ergo, it makes total sense that chill affects initiative regeneration.

It doesn’t make sense for chill to affect thieves in the exact same way because initiative is required for all skills. It’s not like only skills used recently would be affected by chill. A thief’s entire combat effectiveness would be reduced by 66%.

The easiest way to display this is with an example. A Thief with 6 initiative that uses black powder and is then chilled wouldn’t get 1 initiative per second, they would get 1 initiative every 3 seconds. So in the 4 seconds after having 0 initiative they might have 2 instead of 4 or 5 initiative.

Thieves already can use their 2 through 5 skills much more infrequently over time than other professions. Reducing this further via chill could largely remove the profession from the meta if chill became more prevalent. You’d see the thief in a place similar to where the ele has been.

Chorazin.4107:

Having said that it would need internal testing, 66% is possibly too much. But not being impacted by the condi at all outside the snare has no parity with the effect on other classes and the anus reaming it gives Eles.

People are so caught up on the weapon skills not being impacted by chill that they forget chill does affect the thief. In every other way.

Chorazin.4107:

Having said that it would need internal testing, 66% is possibly too much. But not being impacted by the condi at all outside the snare has no parity with the effect on other classes and the anus reaming it gives Eles.

Too bad that chill was intended as a much stronger version of cripple. So it is unlikely that the 66% slow will change.

Shockwave.1230:

People are so caught up on the weapon skills not being impacted by chill that they forget chill does affect the thief. In every other way.

The snare remains, as it does with every class? What is your point?

Chorazin.4107:

Shockwave.1230:

People are so caught up on the weapon skills not being impacted by chill that they forget chill does affect the thief. In every other way.

The snare remains, as it does with every class? What is your point?

That’s not the only impact, it also impacts the recharge of all non weapon abilities including steal.

Shockwave.1230:

That’s not the only impact, it also impacts the recharge of all non weapon abilities including steal.

Im still failing to see your point, it does this for every class anyway?

This whole thread is about players wanting an “I win” button against thieves.

To answer you without waiting another hour for flood control, thieves have 2 main forms of condition removal and both of them rely more on skills and positioning than they do utilities. Since initiative is technically a universal cooldown for the thief, driving the regeneration to 1 ini every 3 seconds with chilled is enough to make the thief helpless against attacks.

The lowered speed will essentially maim their access to survivability. On top of that, they are moving at a turtle’s pace so doing this will turn the thief into a slow lootbag.

At least with other professions, they aren’t as pidgeonholed as thieves when it comes to condition removal and unlike thieves, other professions aren’t entirely screwed out of their weapon skills if one of their skills get placed on cooldown.

However, I would not mind extended reveal since thieves are starting to get traits that proc on revealed.
v

Zacchary.6183:

This whole thread is about players getting an “I win” button against thieves.

If you cannot clear conditions then yes it would be an i win button, but who enters WvW without condi cleanses?

I kind of agree 66% is possibly too much and that some internal testing would be required on init regen. But there is 0 parity in allowing no imapct on all thief weapon skills whilst the condition punishes all other classes weapon skill use.

The extra reveal time is an interesting idea i must admit.

Chorazin.4107:

Zacchary.6183:

This whole thread is about players getting an “I win” button against thieves.

If you cannot clear conditions then yes it would be an i win button, but who enters WvW without condi cleanses?

I kind of agree 66% is possibly too much and that some internal testing would be required on init regen. But there is 0 parity in allowing no imapct on all thief weapon skills whilst the condition punishes all other classes weapon skill use.

The extra reveal time is an interesting idea i must admit.

No. It’s not. I’d rather my initiative regenerate slower since even adding 1 second onto revealed causes many thieves to die when they first did it in WvW. Also, I’m not saying no out right, but people need to understand something: If your class is chilled, you use all moves, then can weapon swap and use the other moves before the actually chilling effect becomes a problem. By this mechanic, a thief would use his skill (not even all of them mind you since initiative is shared!), run out of initiative, switch weapons and….LOL. That’s right, initiative is shared between weapons. This would be severely crippling.

Chorazin.4107:

Zacchary.6183:

This whole thread is about players getting an “I win” button against thieves.

If you cannot clear conditions then yes it would be an i win button, but who enters WvW without condi cleanses?

I kind of agree 66% is possibly too much and that some internal testing would be required on init regen. But there is 0 parity in allowing no imapct on all thief weapon skills whilst the condition punishes all other classes weapon skill use.

The extra reveal time is an interesting idea i must admit.

The other thing to remember is that a thief can’t just swap to another weapon set like other professions can in order to use other skills. If a thief has 2 initiative and they swap to their other weapon set they’ll only have naturally regained less than 1 initiative. Other professions have the luxury of swapping to another set to deal with chill impacting their recharges, the thief doesn’t.

Zacchary.6183:

This whole thread is about players wanting an “I win” button against thieves.

Basically. Every day some genius hidden away thinks of a new thread to nerf thief. It’s almost like they’re paid to do this, how else could they of survived this long?

Here’s a thought, mobility reduction from chill on thief is bad enough. Ever think of what keeps thieves alive? Mobility, stealth, and evasion in various amounts. 66% reduced movement on say a engi or guardian is meh. They can take a round of punches and jump back up. Put that 66% on a thief while their condi clear is on cooldown, and it’s devastating. Thief has it harder in removing conditions, why do you think 2 of our healing skills deal entirely with a set of them (movement-withdraw, DoT-HiS)? We can’t face tank a group, and we can’t clear conditions like no tomorrow.

RedSpectrum.1975:

No. It’s not. I’d rather my initiative regenerate slower since even adding 1 second onto revealed causes many thieves to die when they first did it in WvW. Also, I’m not saying no out right, but people need to understand something: If your class is chilled, you use all moves, then can weapon swap and use the other moves before the actually chilling effect becomes a problem. By this mechanic, a thief would use his skill (not even all of them mind you since initiative is shared!), run out of initiative, switch weapons and….LOL. That’s right, initiative is shared between weapons. This would be severely crippling.

This is true about the weapon swap, but you are ignoring in any given situation not all weapon skills are useful. You are not going to swap sets and start using skills that are pointless in your current situation just because they are available for use and not on a chill cooldown, that is asinine. You will still want those relevant select skills that are useful in your current situation.

NinjaEd.3946:

Basically. Every day some genius hidden away thinks of a new thread to nerf thief. It’s almost like they’re paid to do this, how else could they of survived this long?

Here’s a thought, mobility reduction from chill on thief is bad enough. Ever think of what keeps thieves alive? Mobility, stealth, and evasion in various amounts. 66% reduced movement on say a engi or guardian is meh. They can take a round of punches and jump back up. Put that 66% on a thief while their condi clear is on cooldown, and it’s devastating. Thief has it harder in removing conditions, why do you think 2 of our healing skills deal entirely with a set of them (movement-withdraw, DoT-HiS)? We can’t face tank a group, and we can’t clear conditions like no tomorrow.

And the loss of mobility is not problematic on a Mesmer or Ele? Where is this amazing mesmer condition removal? These arguments you propose are relevant to other classes and are not solely a thief problem.

Chorazin.4107:

RedSpectrum.1975:

No. It’s not. I’d rather my initiative regenerate slower since even adding 1 second onto revealed causes many thieves to die when they first did it in WvW. Also, I’m not saying no out right, but people need to understand something: If your class is chilled, you use all moves, then can weapon swap and use the other moves before the actually chilling effect becomes a problem. By this mechanic, a thief would use his skill (not even all of them mind you since initiative is shared!), run out of initiative, switch weapons and….LOL. That’s right, initiative is shared between weapons. This would be severely crippling.

This is true about the weapon swap, but you are ignoring in any given situation not all weapon skills are useful. You are not going to swap sets and start using skills that are pointless in your current situation just because they are available for use and not on a chill cooldown, that is asinine. You will still want those relevant select skills that are useful in your current situation.

And the same applies to thieves, not all weapon skills have relevance to the fight. So still they would be at an underdog position.

RedSpectrum.1975:

And the same applies to thieves, not all weapon skills have relevance to the fight. So still they would be at an underdog position.

But you have repeated access to the 1 or 2 key weapon skills you need until initiative is exhausted, whilst switching weapons gave other classes more skills to use, it does not take into consideration that at that particular juncture in a fight only a select few skills are useful.

Chorazin.4107:

RedSpectrum.1975:

And the same applies to thieves, not all weapon skills have relevance to the fight. So still they would be at an underdog position.

But you have repeated access to the 1 or 2 key weapon skills you need until initiative is exhausted, whilst switching weapons gave other classes more skills to use, it does not take into consideration that at that particular juncture in a fight only a select few skills are useful.

At least you have skills available. That is the point.

v You know how easy it is to fight a thief? Aoe, damaging conditions and simply playing well will repel if not kill a thief. If you seriously want chill to affect initiative, then I want chill to place all of your skills on CD after you use 1-2 of them. That is equal.

Zacchary.6183:

At least you have skills available. That is the point.

Interesting, so despite the usefulness of the skill in question with the scenario involved it’s just good that i have them, even if the skill is utterly useless?

The only argument here is they may become active later in the fight, as in the conditions have changed in the scenario thus rendering a weapon skill now useful that was superfluous previously.

Or i could have a pool of action points to draw from and use the 1 or 2 skills, repeatedly if necessary, i need at that moment in the fight.

Chill slows down skill use(including weapon skill use) for classes but not thieves. I dont see a reason why they should be exempt, sure 66% may be too much of a hit to initiative regen, you could start out with say 20% reduction and work from there. But it should slow down skill use somewhat. It even puts attunement swapping on cool down for Eles.

Im guessing the posters here are advocating what? They are not making any suggestions other than just disagreeing outright with any perceived ‘nerf’ to their class(im assuming they are all thieves). When really it’s more looking for parity and a fair and equitable way to apply some weapon skill reduction to the class via chill.

Chorazin.4107:

RedSpectrum.1975:

And the same applies to thieves, not all weapon skills have relevance to the fight. So still they would be at an underdog position.

But you have repeated access to the 1 or 2 key weapon skills you need until initiative is exhausted, whilst switching weapons gave other classes more skills to use, it does not take into consideration that at that particular juncture in a fight only a select few skills are useful.

So your saying it’s ok to reduce ini gain by via chill, because other classes skills not on cool down “may” not be useful in a particular situation, even though a thief with out initiative would be useless in most instances?

Chorazin.4107:

Im guessing the posters here are advocating what? They are not making any suggestions other than just disagreeing outright with any perceived ‘nerf’ to their class(im assuming they are all thieves). When really it’s more looking for parity and a fair and equitable way to apply some weapon skill reduction to the class via chill.

The thing is it’s not really that fair nor equitable, most people for this idea are only thinking " we get this so why don’t they"with out really thinking how it would effect the class. They don’t really care if it punishes the thief harder than they realize, they just want this because in their mind " it’s only fair". Other people for this want to just nerf the thief one point away from deletion.

Of course thieves defend this kitten,

Chorazin.4107:

Zacchary.6183:

At least you have skills available. That is the point.

Interesting, so despite the usefulness of the skill in question with the scenario involved it’s just good that i have them, even if the skill is utterly useless?

The only argument here is they may become active later in the fight, as in the conditions have changed in the scenario thus rendering a weapon skill now useful that was superfluous previously.

Or i could have a pool of action points to draw from and use the 1 or 2 skills, repeatedly if necessary, i need at that moment in the fight.

Chill slows down skill use(including weapon skill use) for classes but not thieves. I dont see a reason why they should be exempt, sure 66% may be too much of a hit to initiative regen, you could start out with say 20% reduction and work from there. But it should slow down skill use somewhat. It even puts attunement swapping on cool down for Eles.

Im guessing the posters here are advocating what? They are not making any suggestions other than just disagreeing outright with any perceived ‘nerf’ to their class(im assuming they are all thieves). When really it’s more looking for parity and a fair and equitable way to apply some weapon skill reduction to the class via chill.

Even still, we can say that assuming the ele is off all cooldowns, he still has 16 skills to use before chill CD affects him, regardless of usefulness. Whereas a thief only has….far fewer, four at most. Five or six with extra initiative

Zacchary.6183:

Chorazin.4107:

RedSpectrum.1975:

And the same applies to thieves, not all weapon skills have relevance to the fight. So still they would be at an underdog position.

But you have repeated access to the 1 or 2 key weapon skills you need until initiative is exhausted, whilst switching weapons gave other classes more skills to use, it does not take into consideration that at that particular juncture in a fight only a select few skills are useful.

At least you have skills available. That is the point.

v You know how easy it is to fight a thief? Aoe, damaging conditions and simply playing well will repel if not kill a thief. If you seriously want chill to affect initiative, then I want chill to place all of your skills on CD after you use 1-2 of them. That is equal.

He has a point, only the thief class has a shared cooldown. It would only be fair *troll face

u can get your 66% chill effect on thief’s #1-#5 but then i want to have 2 different initiative pools for my two weapon sets!

and what i also want to say: blablabla nerf here and there. can u pls shut up and play the game. everybody wants to nerf another class. why nerf and not balance? because the chill-mechanic is a basic game mechanic and not a simple ability which u can balance. thats means that anet will not change something that is a “law of nature”. if anet would think about every little thing like this, you can be sure that there will be no new balance and feature update the next 6 months.

BobbyT.7192:

So your saying ok to reduce ini gain by via chill, because other classes skills not on cool down “may” not be useful in a particular situation, even though a thief with out initiative would be useless in most instances?

Why is the argument without initiative and chill cannot be removed under any circumstances? You will still be regenerating initiative, just at a reduced rate, seems every argument focuses around i have no initiative and will never have any and i can never remove chill.

Thats comparable to a Mesmer, all my weapon skills are on cool down, chill is way OP as now my class is completely useless. We all know this argument is a fallacy.

Chill can be removed by a friendly Guardian, via entering stealth, via using a condi cleanse.

Where are the suggestions for an equitable solution?

Lower the regen by 66%/5=13%.

There, I fixed your problems.

Tetsuyja.7805:

u can get your 66% chill effect on thief’s #1-#5 but then i want to have 2 different initiative pools for my two weapon sets!

Well i suggested 20% for a start, im not sure why you would want 66%?

Tetsuyja.7805:

and what i also want to say: blablabla nerf here and there. can u pls shut up and play the game. everybody wants to nerf another class. why nerf and not balance? because the chill-mechanic is a basic game mechanic and not a simple ability which u can balance. thats means that anet will not change something that is a “law of nature”. if anet would think about every little thing like this, you can be sure that there will be no new balance and feature update the next 6 months.

This argument is incoherent and irrational, in fact im having a hard time trying to work out exactly what you are talking about. Law of nature?

tetrodoxin.2134:

Lower the regen by 66%/5=13%.

There, I fixed your problems.

It could be a start, you would need some time to let the alterations settle to see how it is impacting on play and the meta.

You guys wanted chilled to be balanced so I suggested that everyone gets screwed over the same way.

#ChessLevelBalance

Shockwave.1230:

If it did the 66 percent reduction to recharge all thieves would instantly lose when they have chill applied to them for 4 seconds or more.

You mean kind of like elementalists have suffered through since launch?

Zacchary.6183:

You guys wanted chilled to be balanced so I suggested that everyone gets screwed over the same way.

#ChessLevelBalance

What you suggested doesnt make a lot of sense, why would all of my skills go on cooldown after i use a skill?

That is not the same as regenerating initiative at a reduced rate as different skills require a different investment of initiative to execute. So going by your argument each skill once i used a weapon skill would go on a cooldown with varying times depending upon the skill in question.

That seems like a lot of work for the developers when implementing a decrease on initiative regeneration when chilled would be easier. Tetrodoxin’s initial idea of 13% is a start for a discussion point.

im with the other forum user, that if chill does affect our cooldown,

allow us thieves to have separate initiative pool between weapon swaps to compensate,

Conncept.7638:

Shockwave.1230:

If it did the 66 percent reduction to recharge all thieves would instantly lose when they have chill applied to them for 4 seconds or more.

You mean kind of like elementalists have suffered through since launch?

I main an ele, and can compensate chill impacting attunements because I have 20 weapon skills to work with plus plenty of condition removal. I happen to be an advocate for removing chill from impacting attunement swapping, due to it not impacting engineer kit swapping.

Even when I play on another class with only 10 weapon skills, I can swap weapons if chill is slowing me down on my current weapon set.

On thief I have only 1 universal pool of resources, so to be able to impact that pool so severely that it reduces my access by 66% is like introducing an anti-thief mechanic to the game.

Chill directly impacting thief initiative in the same way as skills with recharge are currently impacted can’t be introduce to the game without nearly eliminating the class from the meta.

Chorazin.4107:

BobbyT.7192:

So your saying ok to reduce ini gain by via chill, because other classes skills not on cool down “may” not be useful in a particular situation, even though a thief with out initiative would be useless in most instances?

Why is the argument without initiative and chill cannot be removed under any circumstances? You will still be regenerating initiative, just at a reduced rate, seems every argument focuses around i have no initiative and will never have any and i can never remove chill.

Thats comparable to a Mesmer, all my weapon skills are on cool down, chill is way OP as now my class is completely useless. We all know this argument is a fallacy.

Chill can be removed by a friendly Guardian, via entering stealth, via using a condi cleanse.

Where are the suggestions for an equitable solution?

It takes a lot for a class to go through all their skills (unless they are spamming) especially if there are “particular juncture in a fight only a select few skills are useful.” I don’t believe they are that affected to that extreme.
It doesn’t take much for a thief to quickly run out of initiative on a good day, if they wanted too, they could spend all their initiative before other class can use half the skills on their first set, and that is using cheap skills.

Inb4 I get people saying " you have lot of ways to can initiative!" Sure, through traiting or using utility skills

And one can only bring so much condi removal in this aoe spam meta, especially when most class that can apply chill have multiply ways….. along with other nasty condies.

Why should there be an equitable solution? Is there another reason for this to be a thing other then just to make it affect everyone equally? Do we need to homogenize the classes like this?

If this has to be a thing, I say just revert the nerfs to initiative gain thieves gotten last fall. (Keeping 1 ini gain per sec) so they have ways to regain what they need to at least defend them selfs.
Now I don’t know if that’s balance or not, because I haven’t tested that, and I highly doubt anyone on here tested their idea either, I usually leave that part to anet. Sure make these suggestion, but it’s not like they haven’t done testing of there own. Hard to imagine I know, but they have to do more in a day than just sit around playing with their asuras. At least I hope

I would settle for initiative to be reduced by 33% instead of 66% to make it fair. Otherwise elementalist’s need to be not effected by chill regarding attunement swaps.