Guild Wars 2

This is my opinion on why thief should not be nerfed further, and why it should not change. I have thought about this for very long time and I think these are the points everyone seems to miss when they call for a nerf, or start a QQ thread about Thief.

1. One of the main Thief mechanics is to excel at 1v1, it even says so during character creation. Therefore the difference in ability required between say a ele and thief to win in a 1v1 should be different. That is precisely the point.
2. Because of this prowess in 1v1 thief is inherently crippled in terms of all other roles. All other classes fit the other roles better than thief. Thief is at the point right now where anymore significant nerf to the class will push this inherent lack of other playstyles to the point where thief will not even be able to attempt said other roles. Since gw2 is about playing it your way that is unacceptable.
3. People vary on skill level, reaction time, ping.
4. Thief dps is a counter to some builds, all builds need counters.
5. Thief gameplay attracts a different type of gamer to GW2. No I don’t mean trolls (IMO the trolls all moved to Warrior/Guard a while ago anyway), but gamers that are interested in resource management, rather than timed management. If you wanted to sell something why would you exclude a certain type of person? I for one would not be playing this game if not for the thief class.
6. A lot of times people complain about Thief and only use one or a few examples of the problem. People will not take this seriously because you present it as an outlier. Or an issue that rarely happens, and therefore should not be balanced around as it is not representative of everyday play. If you want the issue to be taken seriously you must present proof that this is the regular occurrence; meaning not just you presenting the issue coming from multiple occurrences and multiple different Thief players of varying skill levels, but players of all skill levels analyzing the problem and saying the same thing. Do that and people will take the issue seriously, and atm you really can’t with Thief.

All the other issues (how the builds work, defense, available useful builds, effective countering) have been beaten to death on these forums pertaining to the Thief, and why nerfing this class further is unnecessary. So I hope you can kinda see the problems that Thief faces, thanks for reading.

I could add some points to that list but… well…

Thieves are annoying to most players. Most players get upset when killed by a thief.
I’m already waiting for the next nerf because some WvWers cried about “permastealth 10k backstab no counterplay etc etc” while some spvpers cried about “permaevade too much mobility too much damage etc etc” and some others cried “thief has no cooldown” (my favourite part)

I often read “people wont stop until a thief is a free kill/lootbag.”
Unfortunately, there is some truth behind it. You can’t even argue with 9 out of 10 complaining people, because all they want is the thief being nerfed, because there is something they don’t like.
There are almost no people asking for advice on how to improve their gameplay. Better ask for a nerf, that doesn’t hurt your ego.
Let’s hope the devs do their job well, although I fear that they will be too impressed by the amount of thief QQ the last days, but well…
We’ll see it in 2 months.

Thing is, in WvW, there is almost NO way to survive if two, good, zerker thieves (be them D/D or D/P) decide to gank you. No matter how hard you try, unless you are a thief yourself and you see it coming, or unless you are a PU mesmer or a super-tanky warrior/guardian, you will die. I roam with all the classes you see below, usually alone. And no matter how hard I try, if I’m fighting and 2 thieves join the fight, I die. Simple as that.
But I won’t complain. Not just because I play a thief myself, but mostly because I have accepted the fact that thieves are good at this. I mean, warriors are good at swinging their hammers, Eles are good at support, Necros are good at putting condi pressure… every class shines in a specific role, both in WvW and in sPvP. Thieves excel at killing weakened foes.
People must start to accept this fact.

The only part of a thief that needs adjustment right now is Black Powder due to that in-combat long range stealth spam. Other than that, thief’s doing well.

Might blow some minds but when we stealth……. we’re still there and taking dmg. As a d/d thief I wait for enemy thieves to stealth and CnD of them stealth with a backstab and they appear with reveal and nearly dead. 7/10 wvw fights is like fighting a npc you stealth and they freeze doing nothing. If you always let us have your back in that 3 sec gap how is that my fault? That’s like me standing in meteor shower for the full duration and crying about the dmg I ate….

hihey.1075:

Thing is, in WvW, there is almost NO way to survive if two, good, zerker thieves (be them D/D or D/P) decide to gank you. No matter how hard you try, unless you are a thief yourself and you see it coming, or unless you are a PU mesmer or a super-tanky warrior/guardian, you will die. I roam with all the classes you see below, usually alone. And no matter how hard I try, if I’m fighting and 2 thieves join the fight, I die. Simple as that.
But I won’t complain. Not just because I play a thief myself, but mostly because I have accepted the fact that thieves are good at this. I mean, warriors are good at swinging their hammers, Eles are good at support, Necros are good at putting condi pressure… every class shines in a specific role, both in WvW and in sPvP. Thieves excel at killing weakened foes.
People must start to accept this fact.

If you’re jumped by two equally skilled players regardless of the classes involved you should expect to wind up dead. If that wasn’t the case then whatever class you’re on that’s able to take that on is OP and in need of a nerf… or is a very… VERY hard counter (ex dia skin ele vs 2 dire).

I main a Thief and I think their design is so terrible that players have no choice but to make them frustrating to play against.

Every Thief build requires some cheesy element to succeed and exploit to the max. In WvW this involves stealth more often than not. But who can blame Thieves for spaming stealth when:

• It sets up their highest damage moves.
• Heals them.
• Is there only source for reliable condition removal.
• Increases their speed.
• Blinds enemies.
• There’s no downsides.

This is exasperated by the fact that many Thief builds in WvW only use 2-3 skills so Initiative becomes a moot point. D/P is the only weapon set that uses all its weapon-skills and thus the only one where Initiative is a real concern.

With stealth devalued in sPvP Thieves resorted to other stuff, like Evade spam. But again this is only a reaction to the otherwise abysmal base-line survivability in this game.

There is no such thing as a durable Thief so you either go glass-cannon burst or find some sort of mechanic (like Evade) to exploit and cover the weakness.

Revealed too is probably one of the worst and poorly conceived “anti-stealth” mechanics I have ever witnessed and all it does is promote repeated usage of the same skills over and over again.

Imo the Thief class is the epiphany of failed class design and shows a complete lack of understanding in regards to how game-play mechanics interact to form a game-play experience.

Jormin.2761:

This is my opinion on why thief should not be nerfed further, and why it should not change. I have thought about this for very long time and I think these are the points everyone seems to miss when they call for a nerf, or start a QQ thread about Thief.

1. One of the main Thief mechanics is to excel at 1v1, it even says so during character creation. Therefore the difference in ability required between say a ele and thief to win in a 1v1 should be different. That is precisely the point.
2. Because of this prowess in 1v1 thief is inherently crippled in terms of all other roles. All other classes fit the other roles better than thief. Thief is at the point right now where anymore significant nerf to the class will push this inherent lack of other playstyles to the point where thief will not even be able to attempt said other roles. Since gw2 is about playing it your way that is unacceptable.
3. People vary on skill level, reaction time, ping.
4. Thief dps is a counter to some builds, all builds need counters.
5. Thief gameplay attracts a different type of gamer to GW2. No I don’t mean trolls (IMO the trolls all moved to Warrior/Guard a while ago anyway), but gamers that are interested in resource management, rather than timed management. If you wanted to sell something why would you exclude a certain type of person? I for one would not be playing this game if not for the thief class.
6. A lot of times people complain about Thief and only use one or a few examples of the problem. People will not take this seriously because you present it as an outlier. Or an issue that rarely happens, and therefore should not be balanced around as it is not representative of everyday play. If you want the issue to be taken seriously you must present proof that this is the regular occurrence; meaning not just you presenting the issue coming from multiple occurrences and multiple different Thief players of varying skill levels, but players of all skill levels analyzing the problem and saying the same thing. Do that and people will take the issue seriously, and atm you really can’t with Thief.

All the other issues (how the builds work, defense, available useful builds, effective countering) have been beaten to death on these forums pertaining to the Thief, and why nerfing this class further is unnecessary. So I hope you can kinda see the problems that Thief faces, thanks for reading.

wrong thread btw.

all professions need a lot work and adjustment, precious thieves included.

/thread

Aberrant.6749:

hihey.1075:

Thing is, in WvW, there is almost NO way to survive if two, good, zerker thieves (be them D/D or D/P) decide to gank you. No matter how hard you try, unless you are a thief yourself and you see it coming, or unless you are a PU mesmer or a super-tanky warrior/guardian, you will die. I roam with all the classes you see below, usually alone. And no matter how hard I try, if I’m fighting and 2 thieves join the fight, I die. Simple as that.
But I won’t complain. Not just because I play a thief myself, but mostly because I have accepted the fact that thieves are good at this. I mean, warriors are good at swinging their hammers, Eles are good at support, Necros are good at putting condi pressure… every class shines in a specific role, both in WvW and in sPvP. Thieves excel at killing weakened foes.
People must start to accept this fact.

If you’re jumped by two equally skilled players regardless of the classes involved you should expect to wind up dead. If that wasn’t the case then whatever class you’re on that’s able to take that on is OP and in need of a nerf… or is a very… VERY hard counter (ex dia skin ele vs 2 dire).

This ^^. Someone should never live against a 2v1. The 1 will either die or run away.

Paulo.8459:

I could add some points to that list but… well…

Thieves are annoying to most players. Most players get upset when killed by a thief.
I’m already waiting for the next nerf because some WvWers cried about “permastealth 10k backstab no counterplay etc etc” while some spvpers cried about “permaevade too much mobility too much damage etc etc” and some others cried “thief has no cooldown” (my favourite part)

I often read “people wont stop until a thief is a free kill/lootbag.”
Unfortunately, there is some truth behind it. You can’t even argue with 9 out of 10 complaining people, because all they want is the thief being nerfed, because there is something they don’t like.
There are almost no people asking for advice on how to improve their gameplay. Better ask for a nerf, that doesn’t hurt your ego.
Let’s hope the devs do their job well, although I fear that they will be too impressed by the amount of thief QQ the last days, but well…
We’ll see it in 2 months.

……Most players get upset when killed by a thief….

Most players get upset when fighting a Thief, win or lose. It’s annoying to the nth degree having to deal with stealth throughout the fight and having to re-target over and over while making sure you don’t target a mob instead.

One thing you can’t deny, right or wrong, thieves are absolutely hated in WvW. When one pops, people will go out of there way to try and kill him unlike any other class. With that much vitriol towards one class it should surprise me that Anet doesn’t try to fix it. Although it does seem to me some of the decisions Anet does make are pure troll in nature so who knows.

Aberrant.6749:

hihey.1075:

Thing is, in WvW, there is almost NO way to survive if two, good, zerker thieves (be them D/D or D/P) decide to gank you. No matter how hard you try, unless you are a thief yourself and you see it coming, or unless you are a PU mesmer or a super-tanky warrior/guardian, you will die. I roam with all the classes you see below, usually alone. And no matter how hard I try, if I’m fighting and 2 thieves join the fight, I die. Simple as that.
But I won’t complain. Not just because I play a thief myself, but mostly because I have accepted the fact that thieves are good at this. I mean, warriors are good at swinging their hammers, Eles are good at support, Necros are good at putting condi pressure… every class shines in a specific role, both in WvW and in sPvP. Thieves excel at killing weakened foes.
People must start to accept this fact.

If you’re jumped by two equally skilled players regardless of the classes involved you should expect to wind up dead. If that wasn’t the case then whatever class you’re on that’s able to take that on is OP and in need of a nerf… or is a very… VERY hard counter (ex dia skin ele vs 2 dire).

You are totally right about this, but this is not my point. The rate at which thieves kill “unaware” people is really high. If you are already fighting and a couple of thieves join you will be dead in a few seconds. Other classes can achieve similar bursts of course, but such specs are way less frequent than thieves.
Of course if you are outnumbered you should not won, but I am talking about any fight here. I usually rain with my Ele with my guild, and while I can survive some ganks, if two or more thieves get me together I really don’t have the time to react – which is Fine by me, but other people get too frustrated about this and want to survive and kill everyone every time…

hihey.1075:

Aberrant.6749:

hihey.1075:

Thing is, in WvW, there is almost NO way to survive if two, good, zerker thieves (be them D/D or D/P) decide to gank you. No matter how hard you try, unless you are a thief yourself and you see it coming, or unless you are a PU mesmer or a super-tanky warrior/guardian, you will die. I roam with all the classes you see below, usually alone. And no matter how hard I try, if I’m fighting and 2 thieves join the fight, I die. Simple as that.
But I won’t complain. Not just because I play a thief myself, but mostly because I have accepted the fact that thieves are good at this. I mean, warriors are good at swinging their hammers, Eles are good at support, Necros are good at putting condi pressure… every class shines in a specific role, both in WvW and in sPvP. Thieves excel at killing weakened foes.
People must start to accept this fact.

If you’re jumped by two equally skilled players regardless of the classes involved you should expect to wind up dead. If that wasn’t the case then whatever class you’re on that’s able to take that on is OP and in need of a nerf… or is a very… VERY hard counter (ex dia skin ele vs 2 dire).

You are totally right about this, but this is not my point. The rate at which thieves kill “unaware” people is really high. If you are already fighting and a couple of thieves join you will be dead in a few seconds. Other classes can achieve similar bursts of course, but such specs are way less frequent than thieves.
Of course if you are outnumbered you should not won, but I am talking about any fight here. I usually rain with my Ele with my guild, and while I can survive some ganks, if two or more thieves get me together I really don’t have the time to react – which is Fine by me, but other people get too frustrated about this and want to survive and kill everyone every time…

ROFL!

“The rate at which thieves kill “unaware” people is really high."

You do realize that if you are an “unaware” while playing a thief you will almost instantly die if someone targets you?

This sentence seems to tell all. It reminds me of a ranger I fought yesterday who was doing his bear bow thing in wvw from 1500 range. I CnD and backstabbed him 2 times in a row to down him and he NEVER EVEN MOVED AT ALL. It was like he thought he could afk in a zerg fight because he was near the back of his zerg.

People are upset that a thief can kill them when they go afk for a couple of seconds!

+hahahahaha nice one!

Thighum.7295:

ROFL!

“The rate at which thieves kill “unaware” people is really high."

You do realize that if you are an “unaware” while playing a thief you will almost instantly die if someone targets you?

This sentence seems to tell all. It reminds me of a ranger I fought yesterday who was doing his bear bow thing in wvw from 1500 range. I CnD and backstabbed him 2 times in a row to down him and he NEVER EVEN MOVED AT ALL. It was like he thought he could afk in a zerg fight because he was near the back of his zerg.

People are upset that a thief can kill them when they go afk for a couple of seconds!

+hahahahaha nice one!

Not even sure what you’re saying, but it sounds like you misread what hihey said :o

Personally I can understand why people dislike thieves.. Stealth is badly designed to have to no counterplay in this game, so inevitably the class which has the most access to stealth (and has many of its traits, cleanses, heals, etc) tied to stealth has very little counterplay to it.

TBH its not really a solvable problem because thieves dont really deserve further nerfs and what really needs changing is the stealth mechanic, but doing so requires more a less a full rework of the thief class (which is a lot of work and also unfair on theives. Noone wants they class completely turned upside down).

Its the same problem you have with PU mesmers. I have only been playing mesmer like a month and I run around in WvW solo in full zerker knowing that the only person who can gank me is a thief. No other class has a chance to catch me unless I choose to fight them. Its such silly really, but its done now and applying random nerfs to thieves damage doesnt solve the problem, it just ruins the class so badly that it becomes unimportant.

THERE IS COUNTER TO STEALTH. Stealth doesn’t give you protection nor invulnerability, you still take full dmg in stealth, you still sit in CCs, YOU DO NOT DO DMG WHILE IN STEALTH (unlike mesmers), there are 1000000 ways of preventing thief going into stealth, there are 10000 ways from preventing thief dmg out of stealth.

QQ like this is reason why you guys keep dying to thieves. Bad players QQ -> class keeps getting nerfed every patch -> most thieves either quit or reroll -> only very few dedicated still play class and get good at it -> those few dedicated are still capable of kiling noobs -> bad players QQ -> class gets nerfed again…

No matter how much Anet will nerf the class, really good players will still kill bad players and place their amazing quaggan finisher simply because instead of L2P against already overnerfed underrepresented class ppl rather spend their time crying on forums.

Cynz.9437:

THERE IS COUNTER TO STEALTH. Stealth doesn’t give you protection nor invulnerability, you still take full dmg in stealth, you still sit in CCs, YOU DO NOT DO DMG WHILE IN STEALTH (unlike mesmers), there are 1000000 ways of preventing thief going into stealth, there are 10000 ways from preventing thief dmg out of stealth.

QQ like this is reason why you guys keep dying to thieves. Bad players QQ -> class keeps getting nerfed every patch -> most thieves either quit or reroll -> only very few dedicated still play class and get good at it -> those few dedicated are still capable of kiling noobs -> bad players QQ -> class gets nerfed again…

No matter how much Anet will nerf the class, really good players will still kill bad players and place their amazing quaggan finisher simply because instead of L2P against already overnerfed underrepresented class ppl rather spend their time crying on forums.

It’s a good story, it’s funny, you’re a funny guy

Forzani.2584:

Cynz.9437:

THERE IS COUNTER TO STEALTH. Stealth doesn’t give you protection nor invulnerability, you still take full dmg in stealth, you still sit in CCs, YOU DO NOT DO DMG WHILE IN STEALTH (unlike mesmers), there are 1000000 ways of preventing thief going into stealth, there are 10000 ways from preventing thief dmg out of stealth.

QQ like this is reason why you guys keep dying to thieves. Bad players QQ -> class keeps getting nerfed every patch -> most thieves either quit or reroll -> only very few dedicated still play class and get good at it -> those few dedicated are still capable of kiling noobs -> bad players QQ -> class gets nerfed again…

No matter how much Anet will nerf the class, really good players will still kill bad players and place their amazing quaggan finisher simply because instead of L2P against already overnerfed underrepresented class ppl rather spend their time crying on forums.

It’s a good story, it’s funny, you’re a funny guy

He truly is one. He once told me how he got revealed from a warrior hitting him while he was in stealth.

Forzani.2584:

Paulo.8459:

Thieves are annoying to most players. Most players get upset when killed by a thief.

……Most players get upset when killed by a thief….

Most players get upset when fighting a Thief, win or lose. It’s annoying to the nth degree having to deal with stealth throughout the fight and having to re-target over and over while making sure you don’t target a mob instead.

One thing you can’t deny, right or wrong, thieves are absolutely hated in WvW. When one pops, people will go out of there way to try and kill him unlike any other class. With that much vitriol towards one class it should surprise me that Anet doesn’t try to fix it. Although it does seem to me some of the decisions Anet does make are pure troll in nature so who knows.

That’s exactly my point. People hate thieves and they rage even more if killed by one.
Most of the thief haters don’t care for balance. They simply want to see the thief class nerfed, based on their emotions.

To me thieves are one of the more interesting classes to fight against. Warriors for example are just plain boring. I hate fighting them. Their high armor/health/healing, in case of WvW often blocks and immunities are just so… simple. This isn’t fun to me.
But that’s just my personal opinion. I would never scream for a nerf just because personally I don’t like a class or the playstyle.

Regarding “trolling”: Yes, the thief has the highest potential to “troll” people. People get even more upset when a thief disengages, stealths, heals up and returns.
This is indeed an issue. But it’s more the player being an kitten than the class itself.
Again, instead of thinking about a way on how to fix this properly, people who don’t know anything about the thief mechanics think they are able to judge the class and propose the weirdest things.

Thieves are not overpowered. They are annoying to some players and they require the opponent to play more tactically rather than just casting skills to a target.
As I said, there might be some issues, but 90% of the players don’t care for a solution both parts may profit from. They are just controlled by their emotions.

Cynz.9437:

THERE IS COUNTER TO STEALTH. Stealth doesn’t give you protection nor invulnerability, you still take full dmg in stealth, you still sit in CCs, YOU DO NOT DO DMG WHILE IN STEALTH (unlike mesmers), there are 1000000 ways of preventing thief going into stealth, there are 10000 ways from preventing thief dmg out of stealth.

QQ like this is reason why you guys keep dying to thieves. Bad players QQ -> class keeps getting nerfed every patch -> most thieves either quit or reroll -> only very few dedicated still play class and get good at it -> those few dedicated are still capable of kiling noobs -> bad players QQ -> class gets nerfed again…

No matter how much Anet will nerf the class, really good players will still kill bad players and place their amazing quaggan finisher simply because instead of L2P against already overnerfed underrepresented class ppl rather spend their time crying on forums.

This guy speaks the truth (no trolling). There ARE counters to stealth (included running away or inside the water – there is no way a thief will follow you in water combat unless you are already at really low health).

Not many people seem to have grasped the meaning of my previous posts though. I am fine with thieves at the moment, heck, I even play a thief myself when roaming in WvW. But still, when I am not using it, 9 out of 10 times I get killed because a random thief decides to focus me. I am ok with it – I would do the same and I know the risks of playing a thief. However, I must admit that it is kind of frustrating sometimes.

Again, I am not saying “Nerf thieves” “stealth has no counters” “thieves are cheap”.

Don’t worry. The balance team won’t nerf thieves. They could give thieves one shot kill buttons and they won’t nerf them.

RyuDragnier.9476:

Forzani.2584:

Cynz.9437:

THERE IS COUNTER TO STEALTH. Stealth doesn’t give you protection nor invulnerability, you still take full dmg in stealth, you still sit in CCs, YOU DO NOT DO DMG WHILE IN STEALTH (unlike mesmers), there are 1000000 ways of preventing thief going into stealth, there are 10000 ways from preventing thief dmg out of stealth.

QQ like this is reason why you guys keep dying to thieves. Bad players QQ -> class keeps getting nerfed every patch -> most thieves either quit or reroll -> only very few dedicated still play class and get good at it -> those few dedicated are still capable of kiling noobs -> bad players QQ -> class gets nerfed again…

No matter how much Anet will nerf the class, really good players will still kill bad players and place their amazing quaggan finisher simply because instead of L2P against already overnerfed underrepresented class ppl rather spend their time crying on forums.

It’s a good story, it’s funny, you’re a funny guy

He truly is one. He once told me how he got revealed from a warrior hitting him while he was in stealth.

that is a lie unless you can post a link to prove it

I’m very impressed by some people’s ability to discuss constructively

Burnfall.9573:

I Respect your opinion OP. I will leave you with this..

Thief class;

You are not a victim.
No matter what your Justification is,
No matter what your reason is,
No matter what your excuse is,
No matter what you say,
You have no reason to be Justified,
You have no reason to be reasoned,
You have no reason to be excused,
You have no reasoned to be heard,
You are not the one in suffering,
You are not the one in Pain,
You are not the one in Tears,
You are not the one in Brokenness,
You are not the one in Bondage,
By the hand of our abuser,
By the hand of

YOU

Beautiful.

This thread needs more thief tears

Cynz.9437:

really good players will still kill bad players

I concur.

Jormin.2761:

This is my opinion on why thief should not be nerfed further, and why it should not change. I have thought about this for very long time and I think these are the points everyone seems to miss when they call for a nerf, or start a QQ thread about Thief.

1. I am a thief
2. Please don’t touch my skills as I enjoy them
3. Easy Win / No Risk is what I am looking for
4. I don’t give a sh…. to other professions I push outside the meta
5. High ranked player like Helseth / Sensotix have no idea on how to play and all these QQ are nothing but a L2P issue

Thanks for coming

The QQ’ing will never end!
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/S-D-Thief-Too-Strong-Discussion/first
4 Months later:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/Pvp-Thief-S-D-thief-is-still-too-strong/first

Thedenofsin.7340:

Don’t worry. The balance team won’t nerf thieves. They could give thieves one shot kill buttons and they won’t nerf them.

Dude i will kittening throw away my survivability and stealth on that, heck even being thief. i learn that on enemy Warrior throwing away there soul as a warrior just to have 13k+ long range 1button skill