Guild Wars 2

It was really necessary buff an amazing boring/brainless/all IA + afk build like Condi Mesmer?

Really bad change.

/discuss

I main mesmer and yet really dislike this change. This is going to lead to the next cheese build similar to turret engineers.

CptCuddles.8912:

I main mesmer and yet really dislike this change. This is going to lead to the next cheese build similar to turret engineers.

I don’t see how shatter condition mesmer can be related to turrets.

Anet doesn’t know what good gameplay is like and they don’t know how to balance the game apparently. Condition spamming autos are cancer in the first place, now they made condi spamming auto for a class that already has a condi spam auto that also works with clones. Best thing is that we have to stick with this patch for 6 months, it’s like they actively want to hurt the game and stop people who do any PvP related activity be it spvp or wvw stop playing

300g commander tag with extra colors after all this waiting was a middle finger to WvW community already, buffing roamers more will surely make some people quit

How is condi-spamming autos any different from direct damage spamming autos? The damage is comprable between the two, all that’s different is which stat it scales off of and how long it takes for that damage to actually happen.

This is a great change that might make condi mesmers finnaly viable in spvp, specifically condi shatter.

Aanet just needs to nerf or remove PU if that troll cheese gets out of hand with this change.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

My question: why was yet more Torment given to Mesmer when the condition was designed for Necros?

I was more referring to the scepter buff which is going to lead to hordes of mindless condi PU mesmers. I have no problems with the buff to Maim the Disillusioned.

CptCuddles.8912:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

My question: why was yet more Torment given to Mesmer when the condition was designed for Necros?

I was more referring to the scepter buff which is going to lead to hordes of mindless condi PU mesmers. I have no problems with the buff to Maim the Disillusioned.

• is in the middle of watching the Ready Up due to just having gotten home from work *
  Ah, yeah, if that’s where the buff was, fine. That trait was weaksauce upon introduction.

Every class has to have a cheese build I guess, and for us its condi PU with sc/t staff (now clear with these buffs). Condi mes should not have gotten buffed the way it did with mindless autos applying torment plus staff clones will now bounce twice which means twice the amount of condis from staff. The Maim the Disillusioned change was ok but I think ipersona is still infinitely better if you go into 30 in illusions.

I remember when it was first introduced as a condition for necros, yet despite this (and overlooking the fact that Tainted Shackles applies AOE torment, on a longer cool down, rather than single target), mesmers will now have much better access to Torment than necros, through weapon skills and traits.

That issue aside, Illusionary Counter is a fairly strong skill and has a relatively low cool down. The 5 stacks of torment it applies, if not cleansed quickly, deals fairly hefty burst damage.

The fix to Illusionary Elasticity so that staff clones’ attacks now bounce, as intended, is a buff in itself. I don’t understand why ANet is looking to buff certain condition-based Mesmer builds that are already strong.

Also, @Sagat, turret engineers are considered cheese. The OP is speculating that with the upcoming patch, shatter condition mesmers will also become cheese… or perhaps, cheesier.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

CptCuddles.8912:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

My question: why was yet more Torment given to Mesmer when the condition was designed for Necros?

I was more referring to the scepter buff which is going to lead to hordes of mindless condi PU mesmers. I have no problems with the buff to Maim the Disillusioned.

• is in the middle of watching the Ready Up due to just having gotten home from work *
  Ah, yeah, if that’s where the buff was, fine. That trait was weaksauce upon introduction.

Just like P/D thieves in WvW be prepared to see a huge influx of PU condi mesmers (Solo roaming), and be prepared to never fight these guys, unless you want to get frustrated with a pretty elusive tanky mesmer(Aegis protection and regen) that stealths a majority of the time, dodge rolling to proc clone on death trait. On top of that torment on AA is really silly. The trait buff though is nice and I have no problem with that trait getting more duration, since it’s actually skill based and you have to shatter and hit to get the reward. By taking the trait you either lose DE, or PU. :/

Usagi.4835:

I remember when it was first introduced as a condition for necros, yet despite this (and overlooking the fact that Tainted Shackles applies AOE torment, on a longer cool down, rather than single target), mesmers will now have much better access to Torment than necros, through weapon skills and traits.

We Mesmers are holding your Torment hostage contingent upon the return of our Confusion which was stolen by every other profession in the game… I do find it funny how the signature conditions of certain professions seem to get diluted to the point where they are done better by almost everyone else.

On a serious note, I do wonder how this is going to pan out, I don’t want a Dhuumfire debacle for Mesmer. That didn’t work out so well for Necros in the long run.

The change to Main the Disillusioned is fine, probably still not worth doing a condi shatter build though because Cry of Frustration isn’t good enough.

I am concerned with the change to scepter AA though. I suppose the attack chain is slow and easy to kite, but still, could we not have had something more interesting?

Simonoly.4352:

The change to Main the Disillusioned is fine, probably still not worth doing a condi shatter build though because Cry of Frustration isn’t good enough.

I am concerned with the change to scepter AA though. I suppose the attack chain is slow and easy to kite, but still, could we not have had something more interesting?

Scepter AA’s are homing so unless you’re out of range or block/refect you’re going to get hit by it, and the scepter clones themselves will also apply torment.

I thought fear was Necro’s signature condition. Torment was given to Necro, Thief, and Mesmer in the same patch.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

My question: why was yet more Torment given to Mesmer when the condition was designed for Necros?

Has a dev actually stated this condition was designed specifically for necros?

Was there a statement somewhere that they would have exclusivity to it?

Feaduin.7603:

Usagi.4835:

I remember when it was first introduced as a condition for necros, yet despite this (and overlooking the fact that Tainted Shackles applies AOE torment, on a longer cool down, rather than single target), mesmers will now have much better access to Torment than necros, through weapon skills and traits.

We Mesmers are holding your Torment hostage contingent upon the return of our Confusion which was stolen by every other profession in the game… I do find it funny how the signature conditions of certain professions seem to get diluted to the point where they are done better by almost everyone else.

On a serious note, I do wonder how this is going to pan out, I don’t want a Dhuumfire debacle for Mesmer. That didn’t work out so well for Necros in the long run.

Meh, I’m not even really that bothered. If the changes to necro are underwhelming, I’ll just hop on my mesmer and have a wild ride on the condition train lol. Shhhh. It’s a nice buff to mesmers but I’m kind of thinking that it’s going to be over the top.

In a few months time, depending on how it pans out, this could lead to ANet nerfing mesmers in other areas, like how they nerfed necro’s Terror and bleeds.

If I think back, it feels like the balance patches are just a cycle: X class gets over buffed, has fun for a few months, gets nerfed into the ground and so on.

Feaduin.7603:

Usagi.4835:

I remember when it was first introduced as a condition for necros, yet despite this (and overlooking the fact that Tainted Shackles applies AOE torment, on a longer cool down, rather than single target), mesmers will now have much better access to Torment than necros, through weapon skills and traits.

We Mesmers are holding your Torment hostage contingent upon the return of our Confusion which was stolen by every other profession in the game… I do find it funny how the signature conditions of certain professions seem to get diluted to the point where they are done better by almost everyone else.

On a serious note, I do wonder how this is going to pan out, I don’t want a Dhuumfire debacle for Mesmer. That didn’t work out so well for Necros in the long run.

Eh, at least Necros still have the best Fear access. Everyone else that gets it only has one skill (though those skills do have longer durations).

Truthfully, the damage on the scepter auto isn’t going to be that problematic. Even with 3 clones going, it’s only going to hit about 6 stacks of Torment. With +100% Torment duration, that still caps out at the equivalent of 18 stacks of bleed while moving. The investment that it takes to get doubled Torment duration can net you so much more damage.

I don’t think there’s an official statement, but I believe (if memory serves me well) that along with the introduction of Dhuumfire, Torment was supposed to help necros keep people in combat and prevent them from escaping, though they also gave the condition to other classes as well. One year down the line, it doesn’t seem to have done much lol…

I imagine it’s more of an unofficial thing like how confusion is a mesmer’s signature condition. How about we agree to share torment?

Ha I just realised actually. Everyone used to say “oh just run away from PU condition mesmers”. This will no doubt change that a little.

Welp, time to roll PU Mesmer and ride that train till it’s nerfed.

dancingmonkey.4902:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

My question: why was yet more Torment given to Mesmer when the condition was designed for Necros?

Has a dev actually stated this condition was designed specifically for necros?

Was there a statement somewhere that they would have exclusivity to it?

Yes they did but then they felt others should also have access to it. The idea is actually from a necro elite skill in gw1 called weaking knees. So it makes sense the most for necromancer. Heck even the name itself works best with necros.

Here is a link:
https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/upcoming-skill-and-trait-changes/

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

My question: why was yet more Torment given to Mesmer when the condition was designed for Necros?

Because the mesmers condition is confusion, and it would be ten times worse.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Feaduin.7603:

Usagi.4835:

I remember when it was first introduced as a condition for necros, yet despite this (and overlooking the fact that Tainted Shackles applies AOE torment, on a longer cool down, rather than single target), mesmers will now have much better access to Torment than necros, through weapon skills and traits.

We Mesmers are holding your Torment hostage contingent upon the return of our Confusion which was stolen by every other profession in the game… I do find it funny how the signature conditions of certain professions seem to get diluted to the point where they are done better by almost everyone else.

On a serious note, I do wonder how this is going to pan out, I don’t want a Dhuumfire debacle for Mesmer. That didn’t work out so well for Necros in the long run.

Eh, at least Necros still have the best Fear access. Everyone else that gets it only has one skill (though those skills do have longer durations).

Truthfully, the damage on the scepter auto isn’t going to be that problematic. Even with 3 clones going, it’s only going to hit about 6 stacks of Torment. With +100% Torment duration, that still caps out at the equivalent of 18 stacks of bleed while moving. The investment that it takes to get doubled Torment duration can net you so much more damage.

Factor in, some forms of confusion, bleeds, poison, and burn from torch. What really can you do against this? After condi removal is used up what can you really do against this person? Run away and not fight is the only solution. So unless you have 2-3+ people on your side don’t bother. The damage with this change is going to shoot damage up a lot.

Muchacho.2390:

dancingmonkey.4902:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

My question: why was yet more Torment given to Mesmer when the condition was designed for Necros?

Has a dev actually stated this condition was designed specifically for necros?

Was there a statement somewhere that they would have exclusivity to it?

Yes they did but then they felt others should also have access to it. The idea is actually from a necro elite skill in gw1 called weaking knees. So it makes sense the most for necromancer. Heck even the name itself works best with necros.

Here is a link:
https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/upcoming-skill-and-trait-changes/

hmm, I am not seeing where they stated that it was designed specifically for necros or that necros would have exclusivity to it. What part of that post does it say either of those in?

Somehow my quoting got messed up.

But yeah the article only indicates it with:

“In looking to expand the condition diversity of thieves and mesmers, we decided to include Torment skills for those two professions as well.”

It was more like Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said below. Sorry my wording was not the best here.

The addition of torment to multiple classes is one of the reasons conditions became a big thing along with perplexity runes and dhumfire. Suddenly classes had access to lots of damaging conditions creating condition bursts. This change just adds more condition application to a class that had plenty already.

I honestly can’t figure out why they did this. In SPvP it really won’t help because mesmers don’t have the survivability outside stealth to compete while capping/decapping. In WvW PU condi mesmers were already powerful enough and a pain to kill. In PvE….well conditions suck in PvE until Anet gets off their butts and revamps the entire system.

This is just a plain old stupid change.

dancingmonkey.4902:

Muchacho.2390:

dancingmonkey.4902:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

My question: why was yet more Torment given to Mesmer when the condition was designed for Necros?

Has a dev actually stated this condition was designed specifically for necros?

Was there a statement somewhere that they would have exclusivity to it?

Yes they did but then they felt others should also have access to it. The idea is actually from a necro elite skill in gw1 called weaking knees. So it makes sense the most for necromancer. Heck even the name itself works best with necros.

Here is a link:
https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/upcoming-skill-and-trait-changes/

hmm, I am not seeing where they stated that it was designed specifically for necros or that necros would have exclusivity to it. What part of that post does it say either of those in?

It wasn’t going to be exclusive to necros, but it was designed for necros. They asked the Necro community for ideas as to the nature of this new “dark-themed DoT” as it was intended primarily for their use.

The fact that the profession that it was designed for has only one skill that applies low stacks on a long cooldown is not as amusing as it sounds.

scepter was already one of the lamest weapons to use…the aa was slow and awful. I think they should have put the condi on the final hit, not all. That way it adds something to the aa but doesn’t make it “op” (cause its such a painfully slow projectile and can easily be dodged) like everyone crying about it here.

I guess we will see more AoE trolling from mesmers and some PU-like autoattacking mesmers…. Meh, we will see how it rolls out.

So far, they executed WvWvW roaming because there will be just nothing bout P/D thieves and scepter Mesmers trolling each other for hours.

Waiting for Necromancer.

Btw. Where’s that rework of Mind Stab discussed heavily some time ago? It was meant to be fun2use, ground targeted channel.

To me, the condition side of the mesmer didn’t need a buff at all whatsoever, condi PU mesmers are already cheesy enough to deal with. Now with clones spamming torment autos on you it is just pretty much stupid and lame gameplay. I think ANet could of done something else. It isn’t torment alone that is problematic but when you factor in everything else it does.

The illusionary elasticity thing I am kind of mixed about. On one hand, this is a change that should of been done ages ago. At the same time it reinforces the spamming clone auto-attack condis, but at the same time it also gives you more potential for meaningful might and fury generation, which I always thought were too short in duration, especially the fury. All in all I actually like this change.

I also feel like they could of done more to greatsword and sort of give it the ranger longbow treatment. Increase the damage at closer quarters.

Great they fixed iLeap, this will definitely bring some shatter mesmers back, and we may even see more lockdown mesmers, although the radius of that skill seems pretty short.

All in all I like some of the changes, but I fear they have pushed Mesmers further into condition specs.

I also feel like Mesmers would have a lot more diversity and take more advantage of other traitlines if Illusionary Persona was just given to Mesmers for free rather than having to trait for it. This could possibly have some ill-intended effects and definitely there will have to be quite a bit of tweaking, but it is sort of like how the grandmaster in marksmanship which allows signets to effect them without having to trait for it for rangers.

That way shatter doesn’t necessarily have to be a build but more so an opportunity if it presents itself in a fight. I think it discourages clone spamming for condis and brings some element of risk and reward to different builds, with a few tweaks of course. And of course you also have the options of having different types of shatter builds, i.e shatter support if you go into inspiration, shatter boon generation if you go into chaos or condition shatter if you go into illusions. Having to go 6 in illusions completely prevents that diversity.

Whatever your thoughts are on Helseth’s persona, I believe he accurately describes the future of this mesmer change:
http://www.twitch.tv/thelordhelseth/c/4964980 @1:15

Perhaps it might be best if the first attack didn’t inflict Torment so that the clones wouldn’t be applying it? Increase the duration on the second hit of the chain to compensate.

Combined with runes of perplexity or torment this is going to be crazily overpowered build in small scale roaming in WvWvW. The build will easily stacks tons of confusion and torment (too much to cleanse for most professions/builds) punishing any active move from the other side. Thanks to the perplexity runes, torment on auto attack the build will not require any skill from the mesmer. Semi passive condition spam enemies to death.

Here is the build:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Build-Torplexity/first

Really bad move from Arenanet. I sincerely hope this planned change gets reverted.

http://www.twitch.tv/thelordhelseth/c/4964980

Here is helseth’s thoughts. Make anet listen. Save the scepter from being the cheesiest of all cheese! maim the disillusioned was enough of a buff!

11111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111

balanced.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Perhaps it might be best if the first attack didn’t inflict Torment so that the clones wouldn’t be applying it? Increase the duration on the second hit of the chain to compensate.

Either that, or change the first condition applied to bleed/random condi to make it weaker. Having three clones up applying torment nonstop is broken, and I say that as a Mesmer main.

To be totally honest, I’d rather see confusion than torment on the second AA chain skill. It seems that confusion once was a concept for Mesmer that they completely dropped nowadays. Most of the confusion a Mesmer can apply is from Perplexity runes, and that’s a shame.

Please, anet, reconsider the scepter changes.

• Ether Bolt: Apply bleed (2s)
• Ether Blast: Apply confusion (2s)
• Ether Clone: Apply confusion (4s)

If you really want to keep the access to confusion this limited, then change the above confusion to torment. But please, don’t make any strong condition apply on the first AA skill.

Along with that, shave the PU trait to compensate the staff and scepter buffs.

Prismatic Understanding:
Cloaking skills last longer, and you gain a boon whenever you enter and leave stealth.

• Entering stealth: Regeneration (3s)
• Leaving stealth: Aegis or Protection (3s)

so many professsions in the game apply conditions on auto attack.. the only real issue is that torment is strong. but also with that being said.. alot of professions apply strong conditions on auto attack.. the issue comes in when clones also apply it.. but if you think that stacking 3 scepter clones is your best option on a condi mesmer.. then you need to rethink your choices.

This is a broken spec. This needs to go anet. This CANNOT be in such a great game that you have created. Don’t screw this up again. Make the auto attacks inflict bleeding or something. NOT torment.

Torment is the WORST condition you can place on an AA. The WORST.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Perhaps it might be best if the first attack didn’t inflict Torment so that the clones wouldn’t be applying it? Increase the duration on the second hit of the chain to compensate.

They specifically stated during the stream, and many times before, that they wanted the scepters clones to apply a condition, just like the clones from every other weapon. It has to apply something.

zaxon.6819:

so many professsions in the game apply conditions on auto attack.. the only real issue is that torment is strong. but also with that being said.. alot of professions apply strong conditions on auto attack.. the issue comes in when clones also apply it.. but if you think that stacking 3 scepter clones is your best option on a condi mesmer.. then you need to rethink your choices.

i think it’s more mixing clone on death with scepter’s easy clone spamming. the base duration of the clone attacks is pretty low, but combine it with a high clone output and some carefully chosen traits, it’s going to be pretty strong. not the fastest burst in the world, but the pressure it’ll put will be incredible.

As a Mesmer main, this is horrible. Please rethink the scepter AA’s anet. Condi Mesmer really will be one of the most passive/faceroll specs this game has ever seen.

I am curious why I see some posters here having posted in other threads “demanding” Anet devs communicate more with the forums, yet turn around and attack them for skills you haven’t tried yet.

pu is very bad.. it adds protection to a spec that is already in stealth 80 percent of the tiem.. if stealth itself isnt enough protection for you to stay alive then you just need to learn how to play.. on top of that pu builds kitten thier damage just to get to pu and usually choose torch which is a bad offensive weapon… the main point of the build is “i dont want to learn to play yet” there are strong condi builds.. that can melt people for mesmer.. pu isnt that build.

I think they should put it as a Phantasm created with illusionary counter.

Dirame.8521:

I think they should put it as a Phantasm created with illusionary counter.

Please no, most people that actually like the scepter like it specifically because of the clone factory feel, that has to stay regardless of any other factor. If they take that away they might as well take the scepter away from the mesmer completely.

Conncept.7638:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Perhaps it might be best if the first attack didn’t inflict Torment so that the clones wouldn’t be applying it? Increase the duration on the second hit of the chain to compensate.

They specifically stated during the stream, and many times before, that they wanted the scepters clones to apply a condition, just like the clones from every other weapon. It has to apply something.

No it doesn’t. The weapon is fine/strong enough as it is, though I’d understand the need to tweak the auto attack since it’s so lacklustre and slow. But that isn’t fixed by slapping a powerful condition onto it.

Consider the burst torment from Illusionary Counter, then consider the auto attack from the player themselves, in addition to any scepter clones. On paper, it’s a bit much.

Also the base durations are 2secs, 4secs etc. but factor in condition duration from traits, food, toxic crystals, runes, sigil of malice or givers’ weapons. Obviously not all at once.

I don’t feel that Scepter clones need to apply anything. The Scepter is the clone factory weapon, making it a decent choice for any build that wants lots of illusions (but doesn’t care about quality). Death of Clone, Shatter, etc. Doesn’t matter. That is the Scepter clone’s strength: sheer numbers.

Usagi.4835:

Conncept.7638:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Perhaps it might be best if the first attack didn’t inflict Torment so that the clones wouldn’t be applying it? Increase the duration on the second hit of the chain to compensate.

They specifically stated during the stream, and many times before, that they wanted the scepters clones to apply a condition, just like the clones from every other weapon. It has to apply something.

No it doesn’t.

‘No it doesn’t’ what? I didn’t give my opinion on whether it needs the changes I just repeated what the developers stated in the livestream and on the forums. It applied confusion on auto-attack and from the clones in beta, but that was removed without a replacement, putting it in limbo as neither a condition or power weapon. And they stated clearly that they wanted it to have a condition again, as mesmers undoubtedly need another condition option. There’s no debating whether or not it will have a condition, it’s useless without one, it’s just a matter of which condition.

Eh. I would’ve voted for Confusion … y’know, the “signature” Mesmer Condition? But, that’s just me. I also would have not tossed it on the first part of the AA chain. /shrug
Then again, my “Scepter Wishlist” was simply speeding up the AA chain and Confusing Images.