Guild Wars 2

Redscope.6215:

K U T M.4539:

Redscope.6215:

Problem #2 with condis: damage is not spread out over multiple stats…you only need condi damage. Which means stacking defense and kiting is the best way to use condis since you’ve already maxed your damage through one stat.

Try playing condi necro or condi engi with no condi duration or precision.

Try getting condi duration on your gear. Let me know how that stat works out for ya.

You can’t, as it would be crazy OP if you could stack condition duration that easy. This is also why there’s no Giver’s ascended weapons.

Since my last post got infracted I figure I’ll try and I’ll be more mindful about potentially hurting someones feelings.

The things is, I could stand in front of someone and hit 1 once and let AA do it’s thing for 15 to 20 seconds while I go grab a drink and get a kill. No much effort needed there. There are plenty of power based skills that can 1 shot 15k if specced right. Just standing there and doing nothing for 15 to 20 seconds does not make anything OP. I agree that impale is strong as a skill since it can give you perma torment when used right but torment is actually pretty weak as a condition when you compare it to fire and bleed.

Condition damage is really not a problem in the game.
It is damage over time and able to be cleaned.
If each condition damage strike were converted to a similar physical damage strike, likely we would be talking about physical damage being too high.
Condition damage should be higher in total because it is OVER TIME.

A few thoughts on the problem:
1. The counter to condition damage should be the death of the caster. I propose that if the caster goes down, the condition damage ceases immediately.
(That might be a huge strain on servers though).

2. Condition DEFENSE is too high because you have so many left over points to bunker with. You could fix this in any number of ways:
a. The lower your toughness the higher your condition damage (and visa versa).
b. High armor reduces condition damage output.
c. Reduce the base condition duration by say 30%. Increase the amount of condition duration awarded by each skill point in the condition duration trait line from 1% to 1.5% or 2%. The key is you would need 15 pts in the condition duration line just to break even. (Traits would need to be moved around to not kill builds or to provide viable options for condition specs in those lines).

As I say, it is not condition damage that is your problem, it is condition bunkering.

Well in general, conditions are no more powerful than direct damage.

Their downside compared to direct attacks is that well, they need time to do it. Which is a really bad thing in PvP in most situations.
However they have a pretty substantial upside in return, which is that they are balanced using only a single stat, not three. As such, you can pack quite a lot of defence or extra direct damage offence into your gear.

In sPvP, where battles are usually fought on the smallest scale, in forced situations and pretty drawn out without the balance woes caused by buff food etc., this makes them too strong.

In WvW, where groups have an abundance of group-affecting cleansing and shedding mechanisms, they are generally too weak. Not by much, because groups with little cleansing can in turn get decimated as many conditions can be applied in an area.

In PvE, they’re much too weak, mostly a result of limited slots on a target coupled with limited mob AI.

There’s really no “simple” balance here. Conditions are already pretty well-balanced, overall

In smaller fights, condition damage rules the roost.
In larger fights and PvE fights, you will wish you were power damage based.

Instead of saying it is balanced given that dichotomy, I would suggest it is unbalanced and too extreme (good or bad) in each of those situations.

The fix would be quite complex.

Yes exactly. Overall it’s balanced, but it’s not in each specific situation. Hence a simple “This is too powerful!” as the OP implies is just not the correct thing to say.

I tend to understand but politely disagree Carighan.
I would wholly agree if as a condition damage player I was essentially forced into some small fights and some large fights (with limited ability to control the flow).

The problem is that you really can pick whether you want to be in small skirmishes or a blob (just take wvw for a minute).
1. In small, conditions are OP (largely because you can damage and take damage)
2. In zerg, you will hate conditions (because you don’t really get the benefit of the damage given the mechanics of condition stacking and cleansing at blob scale).

In an ideal World, as you played there would be times that you loved and hated having a particular damage source. But you really can pick your playstyle here.

So on a really big T1 server, I would hate playing conditions.
On a smaller server, conditions would be so deliciously OP in WvW.

That to me is a lack of balance. But it isn’t a call to nerf all condition damage. Rather, there should be more ability to damage in larger fights and perhaps less ability to bunker and take damage (which is why they are soooo effective in smaller fights).

warriorjrd.8695:

I could drop a meteor shower on you and walk away only to return to your corpse, that is if you were foolish enough to stand in it, which you wouldn’t be (I hope). Same goes for condi, you wouldn’t be foolish enough to keep it on the entire duration, you have cleanses use them, that’s what they’re there for. Conditions are damage over time, glad you grasped that, so you are obviously going to be able to walk away after throwing your condition on them and have them suffer the damage.

This is the only logical power skill that I think you’re 100% right and I’m wrong with. Nice thought. Full zerk ele would likely down me if I stood in meteor shower.

And LOL at some people for still not understanding the discussion, and talking about ‘L2P’ and how ‘skilless’ I must be for testing the true danger of a skill. Much troll on your end.

To the people actually logically discussing. Thank you.

“Cleanse”, lol. Engineers can apply up to 5 condis with a single grenade skill. Most builds don’t even have instant access to half that many condition clears. Condition application vs condition clearing has been in a kittened spot ever since the introduction of Torment and the balance changes surrounding it.

Mbelch.9028:

warriorjrd.8695:

I could drop a meteor shower on you and walk away only to return to your corpse, that is if you were foolish enough to stand in it, which you wouldn’t be (I hope). Same goes for condi, you wouldn’t be foolish enough to keep it on the entire duration, you have cleanses use them, that’s what they’re there for. Conditions are damage over time, glad you grasped that, so you are obviously going to be able to walk away after throwing your condition on them and have them suffer the damage.

This is the only logical power skill that I think you’re 100% right and I’m wrong with. Nice thought. Full zerk ele would likely down me if I stood in meteor shower.

And LOL at some people for still not understanding the discussion, and talking about ‘L2P’ and how ‘skilless’ I must be for testing the true danger of a skill. Much troll on your end.

To the people actually logically discussing. Thank you.

100blades, killshot, backstab, these power skills will 1 shot you down.

like 95% of all discussions, it’s leading nowhere but to two general ideas: “op!” and “not op.”.
so i’m gonna make the start to do something productive, which, in case a dev should actually read this, might even be useful.

• Problem:
  Conditions work too well in small fights, but are not strong enough in pve/zerg fights.

• solution:
  Nerf condis for smaller fights, increase value in bigger fights.

• possible methods:

(1) nerf condition durations, buff their damage/effect instead. this contradicts the very heart of a condition, but reduces the amount of stacks that are applied by each character, leading to more players beeing able to apply conditions to a target, while maintaining the dps of each single player.

(2) add measurments to nerf some of the strongest AoE cleanses, like nullfield, light fields in combination with finishers, soldiers runes, heal turret, etc. An internal cooldown is not the most elegant solution, but might work.

(3) Add methods to apply more conditions to whole zergs. (bigger aoe for condition skills, more targets affected etc.)

(4) increase/remove the amount of stacks applied to one target. especially bosses tend to be a good target for conditions, since they can survive very long. but due to the nature of condition beeing capped a very low stack count, it’s hardly useful once more than two condi-players attack the same boss.

(4.1)Alternatively, make the total amount of stacks capped per player, read: for every player attacking an enemy, the total amount of condition stacks could be increased by x, x beeing a number between 10-25.

• risks/downsides

(1) burning and bleeding would essentially get closer together, with the only difference beeing that bleeding would be stackable in intensity, while burning stacks in duration.

(2) a change of that size must be well thouht and is probably hard to balance out. the risk of breaking something is possibly high, the risk of a hatestorm from current metaplayers is equally high.

(3) Arrow carts skills #2 and #3 prove this a useful method to strengthen conditions against zergs. yet the very quick application of massive conditions to each enemy combined with the high amount of cleanes reduces the overall time each condition stays on one target, which essentially renders the duration silly and contradictionary to what a condition is intended to be: sustained damage.

(4),(4.1) increasing/removing the amount of total stacks for each condition would open up space for a “new” kind of build, which would be a “condition spike”. the term is already beeing used, but spike here means killing an enemy in a split second through conditions. although build variety is a good thing, small condition groups would essentially be strenghthened even more, which is bad and should be balanced separatedly.

Disagree

1. Changes nothing except the dependency on condition duration and makes power builds better because they have inherent conditions on their weapons.

2. What? Add measurements to AOE cleanses? What is that I don’t know do a timer thingy cause it sounds good I’ll suggest it. Nerf Soldier Runes and Null fields? Cause Mesmer condition removal is strong? What’s next nerf aegis, toughness, and protection for direct damage?

Not sure I’m following 4. Have to know what the cap per player. To low then no condition build stands a chance against burst damage. Getting 10 bleed stacks to stick on someone for more then a few seconds usually doesn’t happen until you get around to the second rotation or later of your setup IF you land it. At the beginning of a fight your condi pressure is only good if you can land it same with direct damage. Pindowns, fear necro setups etc are more likely to land later then at the beginning of an engagement unless the person isn’t paying attention which happens and apart of the game.

People play dots because they like to kill people with dots. Your first suggestion makes someone running Power with Sword/Shield Greatsword warrior for example stronger. Sure I would take stronger shorter duration bleeds on my Direct damage sword setup.

Cleansing is a defensive measure, most defensive measures are assigned to support traits/skills applying them to multiple allies, making them useless in 1v1. Therefor condi>all in 1v1….yay condis

EFWinters.5421:

“Cleanse”, lol. Engineers can apply up to 5 condis with a single grenade skill. Most builds don’t even have instant access to half that many condition clears. Condition application vs condition clearing has been in a kittened spot ever since the introduction of Torment and the balance changes surrounding it.

5 conditions you say…

Soo…from the tool tip of these skills…

We see bleeding, poison, chill, and blindness…
without traits.

You can trait to have bleeding, burning, and vulnerability on crit and impact.

Soo

bleeding,poison,vulnerability, and burning….

SO that’s 3 damaging conditions from a single grenade skill..
4 total……

….
………….

Solori.6025:

EFWinters.5421:

“Cleanse”, lol. Engineers can apply up to 5 condis with a single grenade skill. Most builds don’t even have instant access to half that many condition clears. Condition application vs condition clearing has been in a kittened spot ever since the introduction of Torment and the balance changes surrounding it.

5 conditions you say…

Soo…from the tool tip of these skills…

We see bleeding, poison, chill, and blindness…
without traits.

You can trait to have bleeding, burning, and vulnerability on crit and impact.

Soo

bleeding,poison,vulnerability, and burning….

SO that’s 3 damaging conditions from a single grenade skill..
4 total……

….
………….

Perplexity runes? Though that’s not the engineer.

whyme.3281:

Why can conditions counter every build? Is it the damage, some skills, CC thats effected by condi duration….?

It’s simple really. Conditions are strong (in PvP), because there is no real condition counter.

See, GW2 is kind of a rock paper scissors game in that tanks counter direct damage and conditions counter tanks.

The problem is that, people are making tanky condition users because they can (Rabid and Dire sets). So it’s a game of rock paper scissors where one player constantly holds two hands at once, one rock and one paper and says you can only win if none of his hands can beat your choice

Solori.6025:

EFWinters.5421:

“Cleanse”, lol. Engineers can apply up to 5 condis with a single grenade skill. Most builds don’t even have instant access to half that many condition clears. Condition application vs condition clearing has been in a kittened spot ever since the introduction of Torment and the balance changes surrounding it.

5 conditions you say…

Soo…from the tool tip of these skills…

We see bleeding, poison, chill, and blindness…
without traits.

You can trait to have bleeding, burning, and vulnerability on crit and impact.

Soo

bleeding,poison,vulnerability, and burning….

SO that’s 3 damaging conditions from a single grenade skill..
4 total……

….
………….

6 possible:
blind/poison/chill + vuln + bleed + burn + confusion + torment

sources:

• grenade base skill (blind/poison/chill)
• grandmaster minor (vuln)
• shrapnel or firearms adept minor (bleed)
• incendiary powder or ft toolbelt (burn)
• perplexity runes (confusion)
• sigil (torment)

Conditions deal direct damage in GW2 rather than some sort of capped degeneration. This was an attempt to make conditions into a viable means of killing an opponent instead of relying on consistently striking said opponent.

This was a (terrible) fundamental design choice in GW2 that can’t really be undone.

The best option to “fix” conditions would be to tie conditions to big hit/well-cued attacks as what one might see with a typical power build. If conditions were tied to skills with better cues, players wouldn’t suddenly succumb to 5-10 conditions magically appearing on them from 900-1200 range away as they often do now. You can’t “fix” conditions with a direct nerf. You have to indirectly fix conditions by adjusting how players apply them.

How would you fix auto attacks, that deals conditions or the whole application of conditions via low cooldown skills?

Dalanor.5387:

How would you fix auto attacks, that deals conditions

OPTIONS

• Increase the auto-attack cast/animation cycle.
• In the case of an auto-attack that applies a single condition, shorten the individual duration of the single condition per application in order to limit the total stacks applied if the player does nothing but spam 1.
• Attempt to avoid auto-attacks that inflict multiple unique conditions. If an auto-attack does in fact inflict multiple unique conditions, make the primary condition vulnerability so as to avoid excessive DoT pressure achieved from doing nothing but spamming 1.

Dalanor.5387:

that deals conditions or the whole application of conditions via low cooldown skills?

• Make conditions applied on short cool-downs well-cued and with short durations.
• Reserve devastating condition attacks for skills with very good cues.
• Attempt to make condition skills targeted abilities that players must aim so as to provide further counter-play.
• Make condition application the result of timing, aim and/or combo’ing two skills together.

Here’s Necromancer scepter:

Scepter main-hand skills
[Blood Curse] (1-1): Name changed to [Putrid Strike] (1)

• FUNCTIONALITY CHANGED; AUTO-ATTACK CHAIN REMOVED
• Cast-time: 1 second
• Cast out a bolt of energy at your foe that inflicts bleeding. If you strike a foe that is already bleeding, you instead inflict torment. If you strike a foe that is already tormented, you instead inflict extra damage, vulnerability and gain life force.
• Damage: 244 (0.7)
• Bleeding (1): 3 seconds
• Torment (1): 3 seconds
• Vulnerability (1): 6 seconds
• Extra damage vs tormented foes: 5%
• Life force gained: 3%
• Range: 1200
  • [Putrid Strike] uses the Mesmer [Ether Bolt] projectile speed, arc and pathing.
  • [Putrid Strike] uses a bright-green colored Elementalist [Fireball] projectile.
  • After-cast adjusted to 0.4 second.
  • This skill is no longer part of an attack chain, but rather is the only 1 skill on Necromancer scepter.

[Grasping Dead] (2-1)

• FUNCTIONALITY CHANGED
• Cast-time: 0
• Recharge: 6 seconds
• Raise skeletal hands from the ground to damage and torment foes at the target location.
• Delay: 1 second
• Damage (3x): 732 (2.1)
• Torment (3): 3 seconds
• Duration: 3 seconds
• Radius: 150
• Range: 900
  • This skill hits up to 5 foes.
  • Uses a ½-second after-cast animation delay (skill cannot be used while activating another skill).
  • This skill shares the same pulse schedule as [Lava Font].
  • The grasping hand animations trigger with each pulse.
  • This skill chains into another skill upon cast completion: [Vile Touch].

[Vile Touch] (2-2)

• Cast-time: 0
• Recharge: 20 seconds
• Conjure a hand made of dark energy above target area. After 2 seconds, the hand crashes into the ground, crippling and bleeding foes
• Delay: 2 seconds
• Damage: 118 (0.4)
• Bleeding (4): 10 seconds
• Crippled: 5 seconds
• Radius: 240
• Range: 900
  • This chain skill remains active for up to 4 seconds.
  • This skill hits up to 5 foes.
  • This chain skill’s recharge or usage does not affect the recharge of [Grasping Dead]. The two skills share separate recharges and each will immediately go to into recharge upon respective use.

[Feast of Corruption] (3-1)

• FUNCTIONALITY CHANGED
• Cast-time: 2¼ seconds
• Recharge: 25 seconds
• Damage and hex your foe with feast of corruption. Whenever a foe under the effects of feast of corruption gains a condition, that foe is poisoned and allies in the area of that foe are healed.
• Damage: (4x): 260 (0.8)
• Feast of Corruption (4): 10 seconds
• Poison: 2 seconds
• Healing: 370 (0.2)
• Healing radius: 600
• Range: 900
  • This skill applies 1 stack of a unique debuff called Feast of Corruption once every ½ second over its 2¼-second channel. Each debuff lasts up to 10 seconds and cannot be removed with condition removal skills.
  • The effects of Feast of Corruption trigger whenever a foe suffers from a condition.
  • This skill chains into another skill upon cast activation: [Foul Feast].
  • This skill begins recharging immediately after use; recharge unaffected by how long the player takes to use its chain skill.

[Foul Feast] (3-2)

• Cast-time: 1 second
• Conjure teeth of necrotic energy at target area. After a delay, the teeth gnash together, damaging foes. This spell deals more damage to foes based on the number of unique conditions that they have. If you strike a foe suffering from poison, you gain life force and inflict bleeding.
• Delay: 2 seconds
• Damage: 402 (1.2)
• Damage radius: 240
• Extra damage per unique condition: 5%
• Bleeding vs a poisoned foe (3): 10 seconds
• Life Force gained vs a poisoned foe: 2%
• Range: 900
  • This chain skill remains active for up to 15 seconds.
  • This skill hits up to 5 foes.
  • This skill uses the same delay scheme as Elementalist [Ice Spike].

Neko.9021:

I notice a few people here saying “well Power damage is OP too!” as a sort of counter-argument to the problem of condis in this game.

That really doesn’t say much. Power damage is also pretty over the top, and certainly a LOT of skills and certain burst combos need to be toned down.

But I just wanted to point out here that stating that “something else is OP too” doesn’t necessarily constitute a solid argument, when it comes to balance. I feel peetty cheated when a Warrior lands Pin Down + Impale and heals for at least 400 per second while retaining decent mobility with Sword, and I also feel cheated when a Thief kites around with Shortbow and does some pretty crazy damage with just power auto-attacks and spams evades, teleports, and sometimes goes invisible too.

There’s a lot of things wrong with this game. Don’t let the existance of other stupid stuff fool you into thinking that whatever balance issue you’re currently observing isn’t an issue.

The thing is, when everything is “OP”, then perhaps the truth is that none of it is?

This isn’t quite the case, of course. Some things in the game are actually overpowered (such as Pin Down right now, though it will be nerfed with cast time and becoming much more readable), but people like to make broad statements about some facet being OP without thinking that it’s actually just on-par with other things that they are perfectly fine with.

Right now, people are screaming about how OP conditions are when, in fact, they’re still weaker than other options that are considered “balanced”.

When OP < balanced, there’s a bit of an issue with people’s reasoning.

I think the issue is that when comparing condis to power buids, everyone seems to compare zerkers to rabid for some reason where as they should be comparing berserker to rampager, rabid to knights, and clerics to apothecary. Of course a zerker is going to do more dps then a rabid or apothecay but he’s gonna have zero sustain. The real question is do apothecary and rabid builds do too much damage for their sustain?

law.9410:

I think the issue is that when comparing condis to power buids, everyone seems to compare zerkers to rabid for some reason where as they should be comparing berserker to rampager, rabid to knights, and clerics to apothecary. Of course a zerker is going to do more dps then a rabid or apothecay but he’s gonna have zero sustain. The real question is do apothecary and rabid builds do too much damage for their sustain?

Not exactly good comparisons. Zerker prioritizes Power (the primary stat for direct damage) while Rampagers prioritizes Precision (the tertiary stat for condition damage). Knights, likewise, prioritizes Toughness while Rabid prioritizes Condition damage

Clerics to Apothecary is really the only valid comparison, as the only difference between the two is secondary power stat to secondary condition damage stat. Unfortunately, straight damage tests fall flat as Apothecary’s is not available in PvP, so the most reliable method of testing is out.

As for why Rabid is chosen, it’s because it is the most damaging set for straight condition builds. It has the condition damage primary stat, precision secondary (for more sigil/trait procs), and the Toughness multiplies nicely in with Runes of the Undead for more damage. It’s actually the glassiest option, especially since most condition builds have a tough time dealing with conditions themselves (necros are the exception).

law.9410:

I think the issue is that when comparing condis to power buids, everyone seems to compare zerkers to rabid for some reason where as they should be comparing berserker to rampager, rabid to knights, and clerics to apothecary. Of course a zerker is going to do more dps then a rabid or apothecay but he’s gonna have zero sustain. The real question is do apothecary and rabid builds do too much damage for their sustain?

Zerkers are not meant to have a lot of sustained damage, its meant to be upfront burst damage back out and repeat.

a Ham/bow warr is what a class/build that has a lot of sustain and burst when needed.
a bunker guard can out sustain a condi class while doing decent damage and protecting their team.

EFWinters.5421:

“Cleanse”, lol. Engineers can apply up to 5 condis with a single grenade skill.

Speaking of “lol” only two of the grenades do damage for a total of 3,959 damage. And it takes a minimum of 16s for that damage to fully develop. While a Power based engineer can do that same damage in 1s with a criting bomb Auto attack. Or that much with Big Ol Bomb in P/V/T gear. 2 rifle auto attacks do that much damage in zerker gear.

PM me bud. We can get together with you on your condi/nade enginer, and we can record a battle. I will bring my power engineer. I can tell you now, you will be luckt to hit me with 2/5 grenade tosses, I will bet only 1. But we can record it and post it here to support you perspective if you think it will help.

EFWinters.5421:

Most builds don’t even have instant access to half that many condition clears. Condition application vs condition clearing has been in a kittened spot ever since the introduction of Torment and the balance changes surrounding it.

As well. Professions have access to plenty of cleanse to handle that no problem. Just because “most builds” as you put it, do not have access to “half that” is a problem with your builds. It is completely illogical to play the builds you do with no condition removal, then complain that you cannot cleanse them. FYI, 64% of every skill and trait in the game that removes conditions do 3 or more. Last I checked 3 is most of 5 and 64% is most of the skills.

Redscope.6215:

That’d be great if direct damage countered conditions. It’d be like rock/paper/scissors. Tank counters direct, condi counters tank, direct counters condi.

But it doesn’t work that way.

Conditions can counter every build.

Actually it does work this way, its a fairly well established doctrine in the community. Simply because you refuse to acknowledged it doesn’t make it less true.

We have actually already posted videos of these damage comparisons with necros, engineers, and mesmers on other recent thread. In all cases of those 3 professions, the power builds won out. Fairly easily as well.

Bombsaway.7198:

Condition damage is really not a problem in the game.
It is damage over time and able to be cleaned.
If each condition damage strike were converted to a similar physical damage strike, likely we would be talking about physical damage being too high.

Exactly. I already did the popular condition builds in dire gear compared to the popular builds in soldiers gear in another thread. Quit a few posters changed there tune after that.

As well as Phineas Poe, Guanglai Kangyi, and some others have laid all of the damage out in that form. In the case of the engineer for example, even with +50% condition duration food, the power builds beat out the condition builds by a wide margine. I believe Drarnor Kunoram posted some test videos of the necro over the weekend too.

What is so interesting about it, is that it is a proven fact that these condition builds are generally solidly out damaged by the direct damage counter part, but folks like some of the ones on this thread pretend the information doesn’t exist. It is actually kind of comical. Then again, how long did proof that the world was round exist with folks still blindly believing it is a fact.

As stated before, specific skills are OP, both conditions and direct damage. Impale is one, I personally think it, specifically needs a nerf. But to claim conditions as a whole need a nerf based on impale, just shows some folks still want to argue that the world is flat.

coglin.1867:

EFWinters.5421:

“Cleanse”, lol. Engineers can apply up to 5 condis with a single grenade skill.

Speaking of “lol” only two of the grenades do damage for a total of 3,959 damage

he’s referring to the possibility to remove conditions. an example: you get 5 stacks of confusion over 10 seconds from somewhere. now a granade engi starts spamming his conditions at you. you fail dodging once, get 3 more conditions on you. you use your condition remove, which removes 3 conditions. confusion still on, and you wasted your condition remove on cover condis.

coglin.1867:

As well. Professions have access to plenty of cleanse to handle that no problem. Just because “most builds” as you put it, do not have access to “half that” is a problem with your builds. It is completely illogical to play the builds you do with no condition removal, then complain that you cannot cleanse them. FYI, 64% of every skill and trait in the game that removes conditions do 3 or more. Last I checked 3 is most of 5 and 64% is most of the skills.

As I stated before,

not sure where you got these numbers from… and why you don’t consider cooldowns, availability etc… trying to falsify wrong statistics with even wronger statistics is just not the way to go.

pza.8024:

coglin.1867:

As well. Professions have access to plenty of cleanse to handle that no problem. Just because “most builds” as you put it, do not have access to “half that” is a problem with your builds. It is completely illogical to play the builds you do with no condition removal, then complain that you cannot cleanse them. FYI, 64% of every skill and trait in the game that removes conditions do 3 or more. Last I checked 3 is most of 5 and 64% is most of the skills.

As I stated before,

not sure where you got these numbers from

Probably this page and simple calculations

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

pza.8024:

coglin.1867:

As well. Professions have access to plenty of cleanse to handle that no problem. Just because “most builds” as you put it, do not have access to “half that” is a problem with your builds. It is completely illogical to play the builds you do with no condition removal, then complain that you cannot cleanse them. FYI, 64% of every skill and trait in the game that removes conditions do 3 or more. Last I checked 3 is most of 5 and 64% is most of the skills.

As I stated before,

not sure where you got these numbers from

Probably this page and simple calculations

you got me wrong buddy. it doesn’t matter where the numbers are from, as long as they don’t take into consideration basic balance cornerstones like trigger chances, cooldowns, gear slots, and other. they are just wrong. it’s like saying “10% of the population is beautiful”

zerker build:
- a “setup” knockdown or something
- burst skill

-> so a zerker build can kill something quick, but u can avoid the complete dmg if u dodge the setup.. best example bullsrush->100b combo. without bullsrush 100b does nothing. on the same time the zerker player has no passive defense except active skills or dodge. after the combo is done he can only deliever pressure.. so there is always a down-time between bursts.

condition build:
- sigill, trait and proc related condition application
- most conditionapplication is autoattack and the prof. with the most condis have ranged application
- aoe condi application is instant where as aoe powerattacks always have a delay or build dmg up over time

so a condition user dont need a “setup” to kill something. he can melt other players with passive defense + active defense. he can use cc to interrupt cleanses and secure the kill. for a enemy of the condi-player there is nothing to dodge or to avoid. procs dont go on cooldown if dodged. there is not enough dodge to avoid the autoattack-condi spam.

counter play against power builds:
- toughness
- protection
- traits with -xxx% dmg
- weakness
- active defense like immunity, dodge and avoiding the burst
- vitality

counter play against condis:
- only cleanses
- vitality
- no active defense, cause u cant avoid the spam.

so atm the condi-classes can kill as fast as zerker builds without loosing survilability. the game is supposed to be animation-based. against a condi-player with application via autoattack and crit-procs u have nothing u can react to. the only think you can do try to cleanse. but except cleansing ire on hambow-build no cleanse can compete with condition application.

pza.8024:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

pza.8024:

coglin.1867:

As well. Professions have access to plenty of cleanse to handle that no problem. Just because “most builds” as you put it, do not have access to “half that” is a problem with your builds. It is completely illogical to play the builds you do with no condition removal, then complain that you cannot cleanse them. FYI, 64% of every skill and trait in the game that removes conditions do 3 or more. Last I checked 3 is most of 5 and 64% is most of the skills.

As I stated before,

not sure where you got these numbers from

Probably this page and simple calculations

you got me wrong buddy. it doesn’t matter where the numbers are from, as long as they don’t take into consideration basic balance cornerstones like trigger chances, cooldowns, gear slots, and other. they are just wrong. it’s like saying “10% of the population is beautiful”

You asked, I answered. And no, the information he gave is completely accurate and easily proven. 64% of all condition removals remove at least 3 conditions. Period. Cooldowns don’t factor into it, chances don’t factor in, gear doesn’t either. It just is the case. The exact value of those cleanses, now that is up for debate with the other factors. What he stated is not.

Your example, however, is predicated on opinion and cannot be backed up with facts. Your ability to make a compelling argument is shockingly disappointing if that is the best you can do.

insanemaniac.2456:

Solori.6025:

EFWinters.5421:

“Cleanse”, lol. Engineers can apply up to 5 condis with a single grenade skill. Most builds don’t even have instant access to half that many condition clears. Condition application vs condition clearing has been in a kittened spot ever since the introduction of Torment and the balance changes surrounding it.

5 conditions you say…

Soo…from the tool tip of these skills…

We see bleeding, poison, chill, and blindness…
without traits.

You can trait to have bleeding, burning, and vulnerability on crit and impact.

Soo

bleeding,poison,vulnerability, and burning….

SO that’s 3 damaging conditions from a single grenade skill..
4 total……

….
………….

6 possible:
blind/poison/chill + vuln + bleed + burn + confusion + torment

sources:

• grenade base skill (blind/poison/chill)
• grandmaster minor (vuln)
• shrapnel or firearms adept minor (bleed)
• incendiary powder or ft toolbelt (burn)
• perplexity runes (confusion)
• sigil (torment)

I’m sorry, I was only counting things in spvp…

There is a reason those runes are not there..

None the less..
That isnt just an engineer problem, when you add things that add conditions that becomes a everyone that can spec successfully for conditions problem..which will be a very slippery slop my good sir..

hooma.9642:

zerker build:
counter play against power builds:
- toughness
- protection
- traits with -xxx% dmg
- weakness
- active defense like immunity, dodge and avoiding the burst
- vitality

counter play against condis:
- only cleanses
- vitality
- no active defense, cause u cant avoid the spam.

• active defense like immunity, dodge*

So you claiming dodges magically no longer dodge skills that apply condition? Got a link to this change.

Also These traits say hello
Guardian Absolute Resolution – three conditions from self upon activating Virtue of Resolve
Guardian Inscribed Removal – one condition from self upon activating signets
Guardian Purity – one condition from self every 10 seconds
Warrior Shrug It Off – one condition from allies when you have more than one condition
Warrior Cleansing Ire – one condition for every bar of adrenaline spent
Engineer Cleaning Formula 409 – one condition from allies affected by elixirs
Ranger Evasive Purity – two conditions (blind & poison) from self upon dodge rolling
Thief Shadow’s Embrace – one condition every three seconds from self while in stealth
Elementalist Burning Fire – three conditions when you have three conditions
Elementalist Cleansing Water – one condition from person affected by regeneration
Elementalist Cleansing Wave – one condition from allies upon attuning to water
Elementalist g Evasive Arcana – casts Cleansing Wave at the end of a dodge while attuned to water
Mesmer Cleansing Conflagration – multiple conditions from allies affected by torch skills
Mesmer Cleansing Inscriptions – one condition from self upon activating signets
Mesmer Mender’s Purity – one condition from self upon healing
Mesmer tango Shattered Conditions – one condition from self upon activating shatter skills
Necromancer Shrouded Removal – one condition from self upon entering Death Shroud
Ranger Empathic Bond – three conditions from self to pet every interval
Necromancer Fetid Consumption – all conditions from self to minions
Guardian Pure of Voice – on allies affected by shouts
Warrior Quick Breathing – 1 upon using a warhorn skil
Engineer Transmute – randomly on incoming conditions
Engineer Automated Response (upon health reaching 25%)
Elementalist Diamond Skin (while health is above 90%)

As do these runes, they say hello also

Rune of the Soldier (rank 6); 1 on allies affected by a shout.
Rune of Lyssa (rank 6); all from self on elite skill.

Rune of Hoelbrak (rank 6); -20% condition duration.
Rune of Melandru (rank 2); -10% condition duration.
Rune of Melandru (rank 6); -15% condition duration.
Rune of Resistance (rank 2); -10% condition duration.
Rune of Resistance (rank 4); -10% condition duration.

These consumables wave Hi
Bowl of Poultry Stock: 20% chance to remove a condition upon healing
Bowl of Poultry Noodle Soup: 20% chance to remove a condition upon healing
Bowl of Savory Spinach and Poultry Soup: 30% chance to remove a condition when using heal skill
Bowl of Herbed Poultry Stock: 50% chance to remove a condition when using heal skill
Bowl of Kale and Poultry Soup: 50% chance to remove a condition when using heal skill
Bowl of Hearty Poultry Soup: 60% chance to remove a condition when using heal skill
Bowl of Saffron-scented Poultry Soup: 100% chance to remove a condition when using heal skill

Here are two sigils smiling at you
Sigil of Generosity; One condition transferred to one enemy, chance on critical hit.
Sigil of purity: Chance to remove a condition on critical hit.

*They all passively negate condition damage or add condition damage negating factors to skills you already use. *

For Active forms you have
Any whirls or projectile combo finishers that pass through a light field.

“- no active defense, cause u cant avoid the spam.” You say? None at all? Such as, Dodging? Skills such as Berserker stance don’t? which makes you immune to all condition damage, which subsequently last literally twice as long as Endure Pain, which is its direct damage counter part, on the same cool down duration.

There are more I could list. But since you making inaccurate assumptions and posting them as if they were fact, I figure this is about enough actual fact for now, to debunk what you stated.

@Drarnor Kunoram, Yeah I know some need updating. I just copy/pasted some of the wiki page that these guys pretend doesn’t exist. The funny thing is, I maintain the engineer skills generally on the wiki, and I know for a fact I updated the transmute trait on their on the main page. I guess it didn’t transfer over to the pages it is linked too, although it is supposed to.

Your information has a couple of flaws.

Necromancer: Fetid Consumption is 1 condition per 10 seconds from a nearby ally (not minion) per minion.

Engineer: Transmute is 100% chance to convert an incoming condition to a boon on a 15 second cooldown.

Other than those (and somehow missing the infamous bowl of lemongrass and poultry stew and its direct lesser counterparts as well as Runes of the Sunless), you’ve got it all right.

If you use many of those things, you’re asking for a death sentence vs power builds. Just saying.

Most points of view have already been posted. However, I would like to add that part of the problem, to me at least, is that every class should not have been given such easy access to condition builds. Necros, fine….kind of seems what the class is all about. Warriors? No, and I play one. DoT class that wears pajamas is one thing, giving great condition builds to a class that has heavy armor and very high hp pool is another.

coglin.1867:

godofcows.2451:

prove him wrong on the stats over and over again, and after that, over and over again. don’t care. behind our heads, something is terribly wrong with conditions and that’s why it’s good because it’s so bad. thus meta.

It has nothing to do with “conditions” , and to suggest so is simply irratiomal. It has to do with a single skill having an overpowered base condition duration. What everyone thinks “behind their heads” as you put it, is how irrationally biased one has to be to claim condition damage is a problem based on one single skill. There are both OP direct damage skills, condition skills, and even auxillary skills. That doesn’t justify claimins they are bad as a whole.

you’re going to have alot to cover on posts and threads about irrational and bias then. good luck.
the way i see it, it’s condi scaling and design as a whole. you have another? point it on someone’s else quote.

I cant believe people are still going with this thread.

Its litteraly based on someones horrible bias against Condition builds, someone who just wants to see conditions destroyed. And grasping at straws to pad his “argument”. As he doesnt have any reasonable facts to lean on.

Who in their right mind will say “yes lets nerf an entire damage type, across all abilities, professions and builds. Because there is this one skill that does it to good”? Instead of suggesting the sane thing, namely nerfing the ability thats way to good.

Mbelch.9028:

If you use many of those things, you’re asking for a death sentence vs power builds. Just saying.

All i read here is you prefer to complain about one thing and demand they nerf it just so you can build to counter another thing entirely. Clearly your acknowledging you knowhow to counter contions, but that you don’t wish to do so. Your entire stance of “nerf it so I can focus on countering something else” is a testament to the fact that conditions are no more threatening then direct damage.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

pza.8024:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

pza.8024:

coglin.1867:

As well. Professions have access to plenty of cleanse to handle that no problem. Just because “most builds” as you put it, do not have access to “half that” is a problem with your builds. It is completely illogical to play the builds you do with no condition removal, then complain that you cannot cleanse them. FYI, 64% of every skill and trait in the game that removes conditions do 3 or more. Last I checked 3 is most of 5 and 64% is most of the skills.

As I stated before,

not sure where you got these numbers from

Probably this page and simple calculations

you got me wrong buddy. it doesn’t matter where the numbers are from, as long as they don’t take into consideration basic balance cornerstones like trigger chances, cooldowns, gear slots, and other. they are just wrong. it’s like saying “10% of the population is beautiful”

You asked, I answered. And no, the information he gave is completely accurate and easily proven. 64% of all condition removals remove at least 3 conditions. Period. Cooldowns don’t factor into it, chances don’t factor in, gear doesn’t either. It just is the case. The exact value of those cleanses, now that is up for debate with the other factors. What he stated is not.

Your example, however, is predicated on opinion and cannot be backed up with facts. Your ability to make a compelling argument is shockingly disappointing if that is the best you can do.

i can give you a hundred random, biased numbers just to prove my point of view is right.(1) but i’m not. instead, i’m asking people to think about what they are posting and the readers to think about what they are reading to improve this discussions quality.

in order to prove that a stack multiple conditions could be cleared easily, the various REAL counters to those should have been named, for example using multiple projectile finishers, mending, ether renewal, purge conditions and so on. in addition one could have mentioned the several ways of mitigating incoming conditions via blocks, passive cleanses or converts etc. i’m not going to do the author’s work for him though.

(1)but i’m giving you examples of stupid number crunching (these statements do not represent my opinion and only exist to give example of bad numbers):
- “human thieves have access to 66% more condition removal skills than other races thieves. therefore they are imba vs condi classes.”
- “an inch is 2.54 times bigger than a centimeter. therefore skyscrapers in america are higher than in europe.”

I don’t actually have a horrible bias against conditions. You have a love for them though, you two, and man that’s just dandy. People like you who spread disinformation and fight just oh so hard to keep your easy builds overpowered. Well you guys are keeping guild wars from being balanced. Enjoy.

I’m a GW1 player who wishes conditions were more like that game. And to call my views invalid just shows how truly ignorant you are.

Mbelch.9028:

I don’t actually have a horrible bias against conditions. You have a love for them though, you two, and man that’s just dandy. People like you who spread disinformation and fight just oh so hard to keep your easy builds overpowered. Well you guys are keeping guild wars from being balanced. Enjoy.

What misinformation is being spread by the “condition damage is fine” camp? Seriously, I want specifics here. We’re prepared to back up our claims. Are you?

EFWinters.5421:

Yes because grenades are obviously at their best when you are in a 1v1 and paying attention solely to the engineer throwing them at you, not when you are in a larger fight and paying attention to something else while being engulfed in particle effects.

Wait…..So are we now not using grenades as a viable option for conditions? or are we going with " These only work in groups so it’s still valid" arguement?..

If it is situational and depends on the alignment of the stars why even use it in an arguement?

Because one could argue in groups the availability of the numerous group clears or in zerg’s the abundance of water fields and blast finishers in them.

EFWinters.5421:

Last I checked engineer’s generally don’t stop chucking grenades at you after they see you blow your only condi clear on 3 out of 5 conditions they just applied. You know, 5 conditions they can just reapply a second later.

…..In a 1 v 1 scenerio or in a group scenerio where you ignore the engineer. I mean..Ignorning a glass ele throwing AoE’s is going to kill you faster than letting conditions ramp up.

coglin.1867:

hooma.9642:

zerker build:
counter play against power builds:
- toughness
- protection
- traits with -xxx% dmg
- weakness
- active defense like immunity, dodge and avoiding the burst
- vitality

counter play against condis:
- only cleanses
- vitality
- no active defense, cause u cant avoid the spam.

• active defense like immunity, dodge*

So you claiming dodges magically no longer dodge skills that apply condition? Got a link to this change.
….

For Active forms you have
Any whirls or projectile combo finishers that pass through a light field.

“- no active defense, cause u cant avoid the spam.” You say? None at all? Such as, Dodging? Skills such as Berserker stance don’t? which makes you immune to all condition damage, which subsequently last literally twice as long as Endure Pain, which is its direct damage counter part, on the same cool down duration.
…

1. your listed combofinishers dont work on the one executing that combofinisher
2. so you say berserker stance is such a problem? its 2/15 off the fight duration active. i cant call that active defense. all its does it opens up a tiny time frame to kill the condi user (if he cant defend themself for 8s) without worry about pressure. u know the biggest condi-classes can kite and apply condis 100% of the time at the same time (ranged condi application ftw)?
3. how i said in my post. dodging bullsrush destroys the whole burst combo. the same goes for a lot of raw dmg bursts but for this example its the easiest to show. on the other hand dodging 1 aa just negates the condiapplication of that aa, but not the condiapplication via trait or sigills or runes. if the attack isnt hitting, the traits ( some have no cooldown) and runes dont go on cooldown. as example you could fight against a necro with dhuumfire and dodge 90% of his attacks. u would still get burned.
4. your list of possible condiremoves are nice but useless. how about u calculate how often u can remove condis and the reapplication? u will see there is a big difference. do the same with raw-burst combo.

Here’s a question: why can a power build not also apply pressure with auto-attacks? Their autos hit harder, and the time a condition build takes to kill a Knight’s Guardian is the same as a Zerker Guardian (for example), so it’s not like they don’t have the same window of opportunity to fight back.

Oh wait, I forgot people forget how to play the game as soon as one side isn’t putting up huge numbers with each attack.

How do you fight kiting ranged condition build? Same way you fight a kiting, ranged power build.

Using the same parameters in this test which is be a power build and use one skill walk away and kill someone that stands there with 15.5k hp.

This should be able to be done with:

Meteor shower on a glass ele
Summon fire elemental
Summon hounds of Balthazar
Any power ranger
Any Mesmer
Thieves guild
Ambush trap thief might be able to pull this off.

These would recreate the same scenario in a power build and result in a kill of a 15.5k afk person.

Mesmer and rangers can always do this with the Mesmer killing 2 afk people summon duelist on one zerker on the other I believe leash range is 1500?

EDIT: forgot to add any necromancers minion.

oZii.2864:

Using the same parameters in this test which is be a power build and use one skill walk away and kill someone that stands there with 15.5k hp.

This should be able to be done with:

Meteor shower on a glass ele
Summon fire elemental
Summon hounds of Balthazar
Any power ranger
Any Mesmer
Thieves guild
Ambush trap thief might be able to pull this off.

These would recreate the same scenario in a power build and result in a kill of a 15.5k afk person.

Mesmer and rangers can always do this with the Mesmer killing 2 afk people summon duelist on one zerker on the other I believe leash range is 1500?

EDIT: forgot to add any necromancers minion.

Also forgot Blood is Power with maxed bleed duration and condition damage. That one is possible to hit 18k damage with just the one skill, but it takes 1 minute to happen in full (plus, if not removed from the necro, causes him to take 6k damage)

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Here’s a question: why can a power build not also apply pressure with auto-attacks? .

…
Did you….

Ok..

so…

Warrior Axe main hand
thief dagger
elementalist dagger
ranger bow+pet
Mesmer greatsword
Guardian greatsword/sword

All of those don’t do nearly enough damage to count as pressure?

Solori.6025:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Here’s a question: why can a power build not also apply pressure with auto-attacks? .

…
Did you….

Ok..

so…

Warrior Axe main hand
thief dagger
elementalist dagger
ranger bow+pet
Mesmer greatsword
Guardian greatsword/sword

All of those don’t do nearly enough damage to count as pressure?

You do realize that was my point, right?

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Solori.6025:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Here’s a question: why can a power build not also apply pressure with auto-attacks? .

…
Did you….

Ok..

so…

Warrior Axe main hand
thief dagger
elementalist dagger
ranger bow+pet
Mesmer greatsword
Guardian greatsword/sword

All of those don’t do nearly enough damage to count as pressure?

You do realize that was my point, right?

My mistake..I have a case of the mondays

Solori.6025:

My mistake..I have a case of the mondays

We need some Funday Mondays, then.

Sorry Sean Plott, we need to steal them. Even if your roomie does work for ANet.