Condition/Boon Duration is Bad Design

Condition/Boon Duration is Bad Design

in Profession Balance

Posted by: Nova Stiker.8396

Nova Stiker.8396

Out of all the mechanics that is plaguing Guild Wars 2, from CC on bosses are worthless, conditions are worthless in PvE, some runes grossly more powerful than others. Conditions are spammable, boons are spammable.

The most poisonous of them all if condition and boon durations. Mechanically, they cannot work.

Conditions and boons are act the same way, their effectiveness depends on scaling the same condition or boon.

So there is the major issue.

  • How can you balance something that can last between 5 seconds and 10 seconds?
  • How can you balance something that can last 3 seconds or 6 seconds?

You just can’t.
A constant fight of time vs. effectiveness, a fight that is and will be endless.
To make things even more of a problem, condition removal.

So lets tally it up

  • A mechanic that can double it’s effectiveness.
  • A mechanic that can be removed instantly.
  • A mechanic that can stack.
  • A mechanic that can stack with other peoples AND be less effective.

It’s a nightmare. You always have to consider the factors of it’s effectiveness if it is DOUBLED. This leaves to some problematic balancing. We can’t have that because Regeneration lasts too long, confusion lasts too long, burning lasting too long, torment lasts too long.

This just HURTS opportunity for new gameplay mechanics, builds and playstyles.


Balancing is more than a numbers game but boons and conditions ARE the numbers game. They are the only part of the gameplay where chance is not a factor.

There are plenty of other BETTER alternatives for mechanics suggested here on the forums, I just need to make it clear what the most poisonous issue with Guild Wars 2 combat.

Condition/Boon Duration is Bad Design

in Profession Balance

Posted by: Bhawb.7408

Bhawb.7408

Durations are absolutely necessary. The entire point is that longer duration = stronger boon, it is an extra point of tuning for balance.

But of Corpse – Watch us on YouTube
My PvP Minion Build

Condition/Boon Duration is Bad Design

in Profession Balance

Posted by: GreyWraith.8394

GreyWraith.8394

Out of all the mechanics that is plaguing Guild Wars 2, from CC on bosses are worthless, conditions are worthless in PvE, some runes grossly more powerful than others. Conditions are spammable, boons are spammable.

The most poisonous of them all if condition and boon durations. Mechanically, they cannot work.

Conditions and boons are act the same way, their effectiveness depends on scaling the same condition or boon.

So there is the major issue.

  • How can you balance something that can last between 5 seconds and 10 seconds?
  • How can you balance something that can last 3 seconds or 6 seconds?

You just can’t.
A constant fight of time vs. effectiveness, a fight that is and will be endless.
To make things even more of a problem, condition removal.

So lets tally it up

  • A mechanic that can double it’s effectiveness.
  • A mechanic that can be removed instantly.
  • A mechanic that can stack.
  • A mechanic that can stack with other peoples AND be less effective.

It’s a nightmare. You always have to consider the factors of it’s effectiveness if it is DOUBLED. This leaves to some problematic balancing. We can’t have that because Regeneration lasts too long, confusion lasts too long, burning lasting too long, torment lasts too long.

This just HURTS opportunity for new gameplay mechanics, builds and playstyles.


Balancing is more than a numbers game but boons and conditions ARE the numbers game. They are the only part of the gameplay where chance is not a factor.

There are plenty of other BETTER alternatives for mechanics suggested here on the forums, I just need to make it clear what the most poisonous issue with Guild Wars 2 combat.

I would call the server limitations on condition stacks far more poisonous since they render condition builds effectively worthless in everything but small scale pvp. And since when are spammable conditions broken? Direct damage is spammable too you know; do we need to ‘fix’ that also?

Regarding your main point: how is this different than balancing a normal direct damage attack that can hit for anywhere from X to X+Y damage depending on the amount of power you currently have? It can vary greatly depending on gear, consumables, buffs (both self and external), etc., yet the devs manage to balance them anyways.

End of the Dream by Evanescence
unofficial theme song of the Nightmare Court

Condition/Boon Duration is Bad Design

in Profession Balance

Posted by: Carighan.6758

Carighan.6758

It’s not only those two, though.

In general I feel the gap between the base power of an ability and the maximum power it can attain if you fully specialize into it and eat the correct food and all is too large.
This is odd coming from me who’s always on about less generalization in PvP and more specialized character, but yes. Thing is, I want the base power to increase, not the specced power to come down.

Ideally each ability in this game would be very strong, without the need to fully spec it and eat food. Those would add some noticeable but not too much onto it. Much of the specialization then comes from the slot-limitations on the character, having to pick what to bring to a fight.

The strength of heart to face oneself has been made manifest. The persona Carighan has appeared.

Condition/Boon Duration is Bad Design

in Profession Balance

Posted by: Rocketmist.5436

Rocketmist.5436

Durations add a ton more build diversity. Like I can make a warrior that just focuses on regen by trying to max out regen duration etc. The boon/condition system with the counterplay built in it one of the many reasons this games combat is awesome.

If your annoyed about boons, run some boon strip or something that converts boons.
If your annoyed about conditions, run some more condi clear, or -condi duration gear, or even transfers/converts.

[TL] Guild Leader, Sea of Sorrows, SoS Council

Condition/Boon Duration is Bad Design

in Profession Balance

Posted by: Xae Isareth.1364

Xae Isareth.1364

I don’t really see a balancing issue in this really. To get the longer duration, you have to give up something else.

Condition/Boon Duration is Bad Design

in Profession Balance

Posted by: Jayden Ennok.3687

Jayden Ennok.3687

I don’t really see a balancing issue in this really. To get the longer duration, you have to give up something else.

This.

To get 100% duration, the player gives up a lot especially for boon duration. The only arguable point is (WvW wise) that +% condi duration food gives a lot more than other +% condi duration items, making higher (not 100%) condi duration achievable with little investment. You can get +50% condi duration just with consumables.

Underworld Vabbi 1.5yr

Condition/Boon Duration is Bad Design

in Profession Balance

Posted by: Nova Stiker.8396

Nova Stiker.8396

I don’t really see a balancing issue in this really. To get the longer duration, you have to give up something else.

This.

To get 100% duration, the player gives up a lot especially for boon duration. The only arguable point is (WvW wise) that +% condi duration food gives a lot more than other +% condi duration items, making higher (not 100%) condi duration achievable with little investment. You can get +50% condi duration just with consumables.

It’s not about giving up something else, it’s about hindering game mechanics.
Boon and Condition Durations are NOT a big problem right now, because the game is designed for them not to be a problem, everything is balanced with condition and boon duration in mind.

But that hurts more than it helps. This is why condition builds focus on spamming multiple conditions, rather than 1 powerful one. Conditions are designed to have low durations. Design wise, you can NEVER have a build that uses only one or two conditions because of Condition Duration. The game is designed with the thought of players will carry as many different conditions as possible, so you make condition removal very frequent and more accessible.

The same applies to boons, at this rate new boon types will probably never exist. It’s fine for classes to get a bunch of different boons but it breaks the game when they can have so much for so long. Boon duration affects everything you apply, EVERYTHING. Making boon duration very useless to some classes but very powerful to others.


That is why it’s a problem, adding new gameplay elements becomes extremely hard to balance because of condition and boon duration.

(edited by Nova Stiker.8396)

Condition/Boon Duration is Bad Design

in Profession Balance

Posted by: Zenith.6403

Zenith.6403

Durations are absolutely necessary. The entire point is that longer duration = stronger boon, it is an extra point of tuning for balance.

- If only it was so that increasing condition duration scaled so well. Since damaging conditions tick every second, 2.0 second burning or 2.99 second burning (+49.5% increase) has same effect. Having large number of condition damage characters in party is going to cap their effectiveness, while -condition duration food sharply cuts down effectiveness of single condition spammer.

Condition duration modifiers should be removed and replaced with condition damage modifiers.

Condition/Boon Duration is Bad Design

in Profession Balance

Posted by: zapv.8051

zapv.8051

I don’t really see a balancing issue in this really. To get the longer duration, you have to give up something else.

This.

To get 100% duration, the player gives up a lot especially for boon duration. The only arguable point is (WvW wise) that +% condi duration food gives a lot more than other +% condi duration items, making higher (not 100%) condi duration achievable with little investment. You can get +50% condi duration just with consumables.

It’s not about giving up something else, it’s about hindering game mechanics.
Boon and Condition Durations are NOT a big problem right now, because the game is designed for them not to be a problem, everything is balanced with condition and boon duration in mind.

But that hurts more than it helps. This is why condition builds focus on spamming multiple conditions, rather than 1 powerful one. Conditions are designed to have low durations. Design wise, you can NEVER have a build that uses only one or two conditions because of Condition Duration. The game is designed with the thought of players will carry as many different conditions as possible, so you make condition removal very frequent and more accessible.

The same applies to boons, at this rate new boon types will probably never exist. It’s fine for classes to get a bunch of different boons but it breaks the game when they can have so much for so long. Boon duration affects everything you apply, EVERYTHING. Making boon duration very useless to some classes but very powerful to others.


That is why it’s a problem, adding new gameplay elements becomes extremely hard to balance because of condition and boon duration.

So, what I’m getting is that you want them to redesign a majority of the skills in this game because you think boon duration and condition duration don’t make sense. Whether or not your point is valid, the concept of changing every single skill that applies a boon or a condition as well as 2 trait lines is absurd.

Necros don’t have reflects, invulns, vigor, blocks,
extra dodges, real stability, mobility skills,
burst skills, sustain, or good support. GG ANET.

Condition/Boon Duration is Bad Design

in Profession Balance

Posted by: Nova Stiker.8396

Nova Stiker.8396

I don’t really see a balancing issue in this really. To get the longer duration, you have to give up something else.

This.

To get 100% duration, the player gives up a lot especially for boon duration. The only arguable point is (WvW wise) that +% condi duration food gives a lot more than other +% condi duration items, making higher (not 100%) condi duration achievable with little investment. You can get +50% condi duration just with consumables.

It’s not about giving up something else, it’s about hindering game mechanics.
Boon and Condition Durations are NOT a big problem right now, because the game is designed for them not to be a problem, everything is balanced with condition and boon duration in mind.

But that hurts more than it helps. This is why condition builds focus on spamming multiple conditions, rather than 1 powerful one. Conditions are designed to have low durations. Design wise, you can NEVER have a build that uses only one or two conditions because of Condition Duration. The game is designed with the thought of players will carry as many different conditions as possible, so you make condition removal very frequent and more accessible.

The same applies to boons, at this rate new boon types will probably never exist. It’s fine for classes to get a bunch of different boons but it breaks the game when they can have so much for so long. Boon duration affects everything you apply, EVERYTHING. Making boon duration very useless to some classes but very powerful to others.


That is why it’s a problem, adding new gameplay elements becomes extremely hard to balance because of condition and boon duration.

So, what I’m getting is that you want them to redesign a majority of the skills in this game because you think boon duration and condition duration don’t make sense. Whether or not your point is valid, the concept of changing every single skill that applies a boon or a condition as well as 2 trait lines is absurd.

Absurd?
It’s necessary.

For Guild Wars 2 combat to grow and become better,
It’s necessary.

There are so many mechanics made worthless. Conditions in PvE is absolutely worthless, CC abilitys are absolutely worthless. Some bosses are immune to critical hits, making precision and ferocity worthless.

There are many problems with Guild Wars 2 mechanics, the hard part is identifying exactly what is wrong.

Condition/Boon Duration is Bad Design

in Profession Balance

Posted by: coglin.1867

coglin.1867

It is not even remotely necessary. Your assuming your opinions on the matter are actual fact. When the facts are actually that condition builds in full dire gear, with 50% condition duration, do congruent damage to builds in full soldiers gear. The math and build comparison of this has been broken down and posted on multiple threads on this matter. You, on the other hand, have posted no math or facts on the matter at all. You have simply repeated your opinion over and over in multiple post, in the form of declarative stayements.

A video on what weak PvPer’s and WvWer’s want.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6q3em9s5I4c

Condition/Boon Duration is Bad Design

in Profession Balance

Posted by: zapv.8051

zapv.8051

I don’t really see a balancing issue in this really. To get the longer duration, you have to give up something else.

This.

To get 100% duration, the player gives up a lot especially for boon duration. The only arguable point is (WvW wise) that +% condi duration food gives a lot more than other +% condi duration items, making higher (not 100%) condi duration achievable with little investment. You can get +50% condi duration just with consumables.

It’s not about giving up something else, it’s about hindering game mechanics.
Boon and Condition Durations are NOT a big problem right now, because the game is designed for them not to be a problem, everything is balanced with condition and boon duration in mind.

But that hurts more than it helps. This is why condition builds focus on spamming multiple conditions, rather than 1 powerful one. Conditions are designed to have low durations. Design wise, you can NEVER have a build that uses only one or two conditions because of Condition Duration. The game is designed with the thought of players will carry as many different conditions as possible, so you make condition removal very frequent and more accessible.

The same applies to boons, at this rate new boon types will probably never exist. It’s fine for classes to get a bunch of different boons but it breaks the game when they can have so much for so long. Boon duration affects everything you apply, EVERYTHING. Making boon duration very useless to some classes but very powerful to others.


That is why it’s a problem, adding new gameplay elements becomes extremely hard to balance because of condition and boon duration.

So, what I’m getting is that you want them to redesign a majority of the skills in this game because you think boon duration and condition duration don’t make sense. Whether or not your point is valid, the concept of changing every single skill that applies a boon or a condition as well as 2 trait lines is absurd.

Absurd?
It’s necessary.

For Guild Wars 2 combat to grow and become better,
It’s necessary.

There are so many mechanics made worthless. Conditions in PvE is absolutely worthless, CC abilitys are absolutely worthless. Some bosses are immune to critical hits, making precision and ferocity worthless.

There are many problems with Guild Wars 2 mechanics, the hard part is identifying exactly what is wrong.

It is absurd. This post of yours is also absurd. Do you know what the word necessary means? You probably didn’t intend this, but what your words actually mean is that you think it is literally impossible for this game to “grow and become better” without the removal of boon and condition duration. Even if that was true, which it isn’t because you would effectively just be removing depth, there are a myriad of other things that would allow GW2 combat to get better.

Furthermore, boon and condition duration are not the reason conditions in pve are worthless, that is because of the stack limit, and no optimal dps condition gear. CC has very little if anything to do with boon or condition duration. Once again, how do precision and ferocity have anything to do with boon and condition duration.

Objectively, there can be no problems with GW2 mechanics unless the devs say so. It is their game they can implement it how they want. Subjectively, my opinion is that this game is implemented very well, and with some buffs to underused traits and skills the diversity would be incredible. Heck pvp build diversity is at an all time high, any class can roam in wvw, and 7/8 classes are great for pve speedruns.

In addressing your original post claiming that it is impossible to balance something that can be between 5 and 10 seconds. That simply isn’t true. You do exactly what they did with this game and make the build give up something to get to 10 seconds or get something else for keeping it at 5 seconds. I know for a fact that these things can be balanced because many of them are balanced. For instance, people complain about eles might stacking, but I’ve never once heard someone say that Soothing Disruption, which grants regen and vigor on cantrip use, is overpowered or underpowered. That would mean that it is balanced in the eyes of everyone immediately contradicting your original post.

Necros don’t have reflects, invulns, vigor, blocks,
extra dodges, real stability, mobility skills,
burst skills, sustain, or good support. GG ANET.

(edited by zapv.8051)

Condition/Boon Duration is Bad Design

in Profession Balance

Posted by: Exedore.6320

Exedore.6320

Mostly agree with the OP.

Having targeted duration increases – only increasing a specific condition or boon duration – is fine. What’s a problem for balance is the duration increase to all conditions or all boons. In particular, condition duration causes balance problems because both damaging and CC condition durations are increased simultaneously.

@zapv.8051
PvP build diversity about the same as it’s always been. While you can play a lot of stuff, very few is actually good at the highest level. WvW roaming in a joke with the condi duration increase food and PvE-only runes; you just don’t see it because it’s easy to avoid these unstoppable solo roamers without even trying.

Kirrena Rosenkreutz

Condition/Boon Duration is Bad Design

in Profession Balance

Posted by: zapv.8051

zapv.8051

Mostly agree with the OP.

Having targeted duration increases – only increasing a specific condition or boon duration – is fine. What’s a problem for balance is the duration increase to all conditions or all boons. In particular, condition duration causes balance problems because both damaging and CC condition durations are increased simultaneously.

@zapv.8051
PvP build diversity about the same as it’s always been. While you can play a lot of stuff, very few is actually good at the highest level. WvW roaming in a joke with the condi duration increase food and PvE-only runes; you just don’t see it because it’s easy to avoid these unstoppable solo roamers without even trying.

Your one of these players who actually thinks condition builds are overpowered lol. If you think it is op that condition duration effects both damaging conditions and cc conditions why is it fair that boon duration effects swiftness, and stability which are the counter to cc conditions, while also effecting might and fury which are the equivalent to damaging conditions. It is balanced because you can invest in boon duration to make you deal more damage, and survive better, or you can invest in condition duration to do the same. Removing either would dumb this game down, and considering how easy some of the builds already are to set up and play, that isn’t at all needed.

There are more high level viable tpvp builds then their has been in the history of this game, teams are bringing multiple different ele, engineer, and guard builds, and every class is viable. That hasn’t ever happened before. I don’t really get why people think condition builds are that op for wvw. I roam perfectly fine on a s/d thief, d/p thief, d/d ele, and shatter mes all with no -condition food winning 2vs1s consistently. Furthermore, there is other food that gives pretty much the same damage boost as +condition duration food. Also, WvW roaming is way more serious than anything except gvg in wvw, and the fact that you are trying to avoid these, “unstoppable solo roamers,” shows YOU can’t kill them. That says something not about the roamer, their build, or their buffs, but your skill level (you can get all the same buffs). Honestly you sound like someone who doesn’t bring good condition removal and doesn’t want to learn the animations that inflict conditions.

Necros don’t have reflects, invulns, vigor, blocks,
extra dodges, real stability, mobility skills,
burst skills, sustain, or good support. GG ANET.

(edited by zapv.8051)

Condition/Boon Duration is Bad Design

in Profession Balance

Posted by: Nova Stiker.8396

Nova Stiker.8396

Mostly agree with the OP.

Having targeted duration increases – only increasing a specific condition or boon duration – is fine. What’s a problem for balance is the duration increase to all conditions or all boons. In particular, condition duration causes balance problems because both damaging and CC condition durations are increased simultaneously.

@zapv.8051
PvP build diversity about the same as it’s always been. While you can play a lot of stuff, very few is actually good at the highest level. WvW roaming in a joke with the condi duration increase food and PvE-only runes; you just don’t see it because it’s easy to avoid these unstoppable solo roamers without even trying.

Your one of these players who actually thinks condition builds are overpowered lol. If you think it is op that condition duration effects both damaging conditions and cc conditions why is it fair that boon duration effects swiftness, and stability which are the counter to cc conditions, while also effecting might and fury which are the equivalent to damaging conditions. It is balanced because you can invest in boon duration to make you deal more damage, and survive better, or you can invest in condition duration to do the same. Removing either would dumb this game down, and considering how easy some of the builds already are to set up and play, that isn’t at all needed.

There are more high level viable tpvp builds then their has been in the history of this game, teams are bringing multiple different ele, engineer, and guard builds, and every class is viable. That hasn’t ever happened before. I don’t really get why people think condition builds are that op for wvw. I roam perfectly fine on a s/d thief, d/p thief, d/d ele, and shatter mes all with no -condition food winning 2vs1s consistently. Furthermore, there is other food that gives pretty much the same damage boost as +condition duration food. Also, WvW roaming is way more serious than anything except gvg in wvw, and the fact that you are trying to avoid these, “unstoppable solo roamers,” shows YOU can’t kill them. That says something not about the roamer, their build, or their buffs, but your skill level (you can get all the same buffs). Honestly you sound like someone who doesn’t bring good condition removal and doesn’t want to learn the animations that inflict conditions.

Don’t brag about beating people in WvW 2v1 or whatever, WvW is not real PvP. Period.

The game is balanced around PvP. Which is good for e-sports.

The game IS NOT balanced for PvE and WvW. Which is bad for everything else.

How do you balance PvE and WvW? Start by changing the mechanics of boons and conditions entirely.

Condition/Boon Duration is Bad Design

in Profession Balance

Posted by: zapv.8051

zapv.8051

Mostly agree with the OP.

Having targeted duration increases – only increasing a specific condition or boon duration – is fine. What’s a problem for balance is the duration increase to all conditions or all boons. In particular, condition duration causes balance problems because both damaging and CC condition durations are increased simultaneously.

@zapv.8051
PvP build diversity about the same as it’s always been. While you can play a lot of stuff, very few is actually good at the highest level. WvW roaming in a joke with the condi duration increase food and PvE-only runes; you just don’t see it because it’s easy to avoid these unstoppable solo roamers without even trying.

Your one of these players who actually thinks condition builds are overpowered lol. If you think it is op that condition duration effects both damaging conditions and cc conditions why is it fair that boon duration effects swiftness, and stability which are the counter to cc conditions, while also effecting might and fury which are the equivalent to damaging conditions. It is balanced because you can invest in boon duration to make you deal more damage, and survive better, or you can invest in condition duration to do the same. Removing either would dumb this game down, and considering how easy some of the builds already are to set up and play, that isn’t at all needed.

There are more high level viable tpvp builds then their has been in the history of this game, teams are bringing multiple different ele, engineer, and guard builds, and every class is viable. That hasn’t ever happened before. I don’t really get why people think condition builds are that op for wvw. I roam perfectly fine on a s/d thief, d/p thief, d/d ele, and shatter mes all with no -condition food winning 2vs1s consistently. Furthermore, there is other food that gives pretty much the same damage boost as +condition duration food. Also, WvW roaming is way more serious than anything except gvg in wvw, and the fact that you are trying to avoid these, “unstoppable solo roamers,” shows YOU can’t kill them. That says something not about the roamer, their build, or their buffs, but your skill level (you can get all the same buffs). Honestly you sound like someone who doesn’t bring good condition removal and doesn’t want to learn the animations that inflict conditions.

Don’t brag about beating people in WvW 2v1 or whatever, WvW is not real PvP. Period.

The game is balanced around PvP. Which is good for e-sports.

The game IS NOT balanced for PvE and WvW. Which is bad for everything else.

How do you balance PvE and WvW? Start by changing the mechanics of boons and conditions entirely.

It isn’t about my ability to 2vs1, you aren’t understanding the point. I’m saying the classes in wvw are balanced, and that is evident by my ability to 2vs1 effectively on the 6 I have geared. I realize the game isn’t balanced around PVE and WvW, but even then it is pretty balanced in both of those places right now. Then at the end you pose a question and answer it without giving any evidence, or countering the actual points I made. All you have done this whole thread is say that your opinion is that boon and condition duration should be removed forcing a rebalance of a game that is currently making huge strides in balance without giving any valid evidence as to why that should happen or acknowledging the counterarguments that have been posed.

It might seem like I’m fairly kitteny about my skills in wvw, which btw I realize doesn’t translate to pvp, but your stating your opinion as fact without any support, or a willingness to back up your arguments when people poke holes in them.

Necros don’t have reflects, invulns, vigor, blocks,
extra dodges, real stability, mobility skills,
burst skills, sustain, or good support. GG ANET.

Condition/Boon Duration is Bad Design

in Profession Balance

Posted by: Nova Stiker.8396

Nova Stiker.8396

Mostly agree with the OP.

Having targeted duration increases – only increasing a specific condition or boon duration – is fine. What’s a problem for balance is the duration increase to all conditions or all boons. In particular, condition duration causes balance problems because both damaging and CC condition durations are increased simultaneously.

@zapv.8051
PvP build diversity about the same as it’s always been. While you can play a lot of stuff, very few is actually good at the highest level. WvW roaming in a joke with the condi duration increase food and PvE-only runes; you just don’t see it because it’s easy to avoid these unstoppable solo roamers without even trying.

Your one of these players who actually thinks condition builds are overpowered lol. If you think it is op that condition duration effects both damaging conditions and cc conditions why is it fair that boon duration effects swiftness, and stability which are the counter to cc conditions, while also effecting might and fury which are the equivalent to damaging conditions. It is balanced because you can invest in boon duration to make you deal more damage, and survive better, or you can invest in condition duration to do the same. Removing either would dumb this game down, and considering how easy some of the builds already are to set up and play, that isn’t at all needed.

There are more high level viable tpvp builds then their has been in the history of this game, teams are bringing multiple different ele, engineer, and guard builds, and every class is viable. That hasn’t ever happened before. I don’t really get why people think condition builds are that op for wvw. I roam perfectly fine on a s/d thief, d/p thief, d/d ele, and shatter mes all with no -condition food winning 2vs1s consistently. Furthermore, there is other food that gives pretty much the same damage boost as +condition duration food. Also, WvW roaming is way more serious than anything except gvg in wvw, and the fact that you are trying to avoid these, “unstoppable solo roamers,” shows YOU can’t kill them. That says something not about the roamer, their build, or their buffs, but your skill level (you can get all the same buffs). Honestly you sound like someone who doesn’t bring good condition removal and doesn’t want to learn the animations that inflict conditions.

Don’t brag about beating people in WvW 2v1 or whatever, WvW is not real PvP. Period.

The game is balanced around PvP. Which is good for e-sports.

The game IS NOT balanced for PvE and WvW. Which is bad for everything else.

How do you balance PvE and WvW? Start by changing the mechanics of boons and conditions entirely.

It isn’t about my ability to 2vs1, you aren’t understanding the point. I’m saying the classes in wvw are balanced, and that is evident by my ability to 2vs1 effectively on the 6 I have geared. I realize the game isn’t balanced around PVE and WvW, but even then it is pretty balanced in both of those places right now. Then at the end you pose a question and answer it without giving any evidence, or countering the actual points I made. All you have done this whole thread is say that your opinion is that boon and condition duration should be removed forcing a rebalance of a game that is currently making huge strides in balance without giving any valid evidence as to why that should happen or acknowledging the counterarguments that have been posed.

It might seem like I’m fairly kitteny about my skills in wvw, which btw I realize doesn’t translate to pvp, but your stating your opinion as fact without any support, or a willingness to back up your arguments when people poke holes in them.

The points YOU made are completely off subject, that is why I mostly ignored them.

>>>>This is about the problems boon duration and condition durations cause.<<<

Balance wise in PvE, condition duration is by far the most worthless trait, in dungeons and open world, you’ll find that spec’ing hard into condition damage will just give better results.

In PvP, condition duration can be a real issue. Lets look at the Warrior, why does the trait Deep Cuts exist? Bleeding lasts 50% longer?! That sounds amazing! I’m sure Rangers, Spamgineers and Necromancer would kill for a trait like that!
But wait, why does it exist? Because without it, Flurry would be so weak. But if you were to get rid of the trait and buff Flurry, it would be too strong. With condition duration given by Runes or Strength trait line, Flurry would be beastly.

See the issue here?
The games mechanics are either worthless or fighting themselves.

How can combat grow and improve when the core mechanics are bad?

(edited by Nova Stiker.8396)

Condition/Boon Duration is Bad Design

in Profession Balance

Posted by: Drarnor Kunoram.5180

Drarnor Kunoram.5180

Because they’re not?

To draw a parallel, look at Diana from League of Legends. Part of her passive is that she gets bonus attack speed. It took me a while to figure out why it was there instead of just having her base attack speed increased.

The reason is controlling how well she scales with items while still having a strong base without. By giving her bonus attack speed in her passive, it stacks additively with attack speed from items, runes, and masteries. If they had it as part of her base values, it would stack multiplicitively.

Bringing it to your example of Flurry and Deep Cuts, having Deep Cuts gives the same degree of control. 2+50% is not the same as 3 in this game. Getting another 30% from traits takes 2+50% to 2+80%, or 3.6. 3+30% is 3.9. Not a huge difference, but let’s add in Krait runes. Now we have 2+100% (Deep Cuts) and 3+75%. This results in 4 seconds and 5.25 seconds.

Condition duration and boon duration are perfectly fine as they are. You are being completely unreasonable with your request to get them removed because you are advocating for a removal of balancing points as well as depth.

Dragonbrand |Drarnor Kunoram: Charr Necro
http://www.twitch.tv/reverse830
I’m a Geeleiver

Condition/Boon Duration is Bad Design

in Profession Balance

Posted by: Sarrs.4831

Sarrs.4831

I really think the main issue here is that there are a few elements which provide a huge amount of condi or boon duration for little drawback.

Hi food.

Hi, to a lesser extent, Giver’s weapons.

Nalhadia – Kaineng

Condition/Boon Duration is Bad Design

in Profession Balance

Posted by: coglin.1867

coglin.1867

Giver weapons do not come in ascended and trade condition damage. It is extremely disingenuous to suggest they have little trade off.

A video on what weak PvPer’s and WvWer’s want.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6q3em9s5I4c

Condition/Boon Duration is Bad Design

in Profession Balance

Posted by: Sarrs.4831

Sarrs.4831

Ascended weapons don’t matter much when you’re rolling Dire or Rabid. Your damage isn’t focused in the weapon damage increase which is the main increase that Ascended weapons enjoy. We could also take this as evidence that this discussion has already happened internally- Ascended Giver’s weapons do not exist because ANet wants to discourage people from going down that path.

They do trade off condition damage, but I don’t think they do it at a rate that makes it a meaningful trade-off. 10% condition duration for 90 condition damage seems like an easy choice to me, especially considering it’ll be benefiting your non-damaging conditions and working against enemy food and traits. I would probably be more worried by Healing Power being a dead stat than losing the condi damage.

Nalhadia – Kaineng

Condition/Boon Duration is Bad Design

in Profession Balance

Posted by: Nova Stiker.8396

Nova Stiker.8396

Because they’re not?

To draw a parallel, look at Diana from League of Legends. Part of her passive is that she gets bonus attack speed. It took me a while to figure out why it was there instead of just having her base attack speed increased.

The reason is controlling how well she scales with items while still having a strong base without. By giving her bonus attack speed in her passive, it stacks additively with attack speed from items, runes, and masteries. If they had it as part of her base values, it would stack multiplicitively.

Bringing it to your example of Flurry and Deep Cuts, having Deep Cuts gives the same degree of control. 2+50% is not the same as 3 in this game. Getting another 30% from traits takes 2+50% to 2+80%, or 3.6. 3+30% is 3.9. Not a huge difference, but let’s add in Krait runes. Now we have 2+100% (Deep Cuts) and 3+75%. This results in 4 seconds and 5.25 seconds.

Condition duration and boon duration are perfectly fine as they are. You are being completely unreasonable with your request to get them removed because you are advocating for a removal of balancing points as well as depth.

Removed? No.
Looked at yes.

Once again, they are not an issue NOW but can be later, adding new content will get continually harder when you have mechanics that combat themselves.

League mechanics are a lot like Guild Wars 2, yet, it is still comparing apples to oranges.

League has the luxury to flat out change every champion, regardless of any sort of outside bonuses. If Alistar is too naturally tanky, you can change Alistars stats himself without touching all 100+ other champions.

This is NOT the case in Guild Wars 2.
It doesn’t have that diversity or luxury, which makes having, good strong mechanics all the more crucial.

(edited by Nova Stiker.8396)

Condition/Boon Duration is Bad Design

in Profession Balance

Posted by: Drarnor Kunoram.5180

Drarnor Kunoram.5180

My point with Diana was the thought process, not the method. It just happens to have a great parallel to what you’re complaining about with Deep Cuts.

Currently, the only mechanics in GW2 that can even concievably be considered to combat themselves are traits: Necromancers have 6 traits that their profession mechanic effectively turns off. Thieves have Last Refuge which can proc in the middle of your attack, causing you to instantly go revealed.

Condition and Boon duration? Yeah…no possibility of those fighting other mechanics. Sorry, but you’re just wrong.

Dragonbrand |Drarnor Kunoram: Charr Necro
http://www.twitch.tv/reverse830
I’m a Geeleiver

Condition/Boon Duration is Bad Design

in Profession Balance

Posted by: Artaz.3819

Artaz.3819

I’d argue that condition duration/boon duration is fine. However, it’s the generic +40% condition duration foods (the stacking) that makes it out of control (especially considering the specific-condition foods are 62.5% less effective (i.e. Chili versus Pizza ).

Fix food first. Then look at Runes if this doesn’t fix it. Boon durations (indirectly through Rune set changes) have already been nerfed.

(edited by Artaz.3819)

Condition/Boon Duration is Bad Design

in Profession Balance

Posted by: Stand The Wall.6987

Stand The Wall.6987

I can see where you’re coming from, but as far as balance goes I think as a general rule its a lot easier to add new mechanics rather then delete old ones. A random example would be changing all condition removal skills to work over time, or to have a boon duration cap on any and all active boons on a single player at a single time.

Team Deathmatch for PvP – Raise the AoE cap for WvW – More unique events for PvE

Condition/Boon Duration is Bad Design

in Profession Balance

Posted by: Nova Stiker.8396

Nova Stiker.8396

My point with Diana was the thought process, not the method. It just happens to have a great parallel to what you’re complaining about with Deep Cuts.

Currently, the only mechanics in GW2 that can even concievably be considered to combat themselves are traits: Necromancers have 6 traits that their profession mechanic effectively turns off. Thieves have Last Refuge which can proc in the middle of your attack, causing you to instantly go revealed.

Condition and Boon duration? Yeah…no possibility of those fighting other mechanics. Sorry, but you’re just wrong.

The Paralleled with Diana doesn’t even come close to compare. The reason why her passive scales is to make her more powerful by late game and less powerful early. That’s it. There is nothing more too it.

Here is a question for you: Why hasn’t there ever been a new boon? Guild Wars 2 is over 2 years old now. Why hasn’t there been a new condition since Torment? A whole year.
Torment was introduced because conditions were worthless in all aspects of the game before Dhuumfire meta.

People criticize ArenaNet for the lack of added content in combat. Just tossing in the occasional Rune and Sigil.
Two years each class got only 5 new traits.
Two years and no new weapons for classes.
Two years and no new utilities.
Two years and just 1 new healing skill.
Two years and no new boons.
Two years and just 1 new condition.

Yet, during those two years, Riot released 40+ Champions, each one plays differently than the other. Granted, they made plenty of mistakes along the way, Lulu mid, Azir billion bugs, Ryze top, Heimerdinger, Vi, Shyvanna and Mundo, Feral Flare and yet they still pumping out new content.
The difference is, if Lulu is going to wreck face mid. You can ban her.

It’s not because ArenaNet doesn’t favor the combat, despite some traits that can hurt more than help, ever since the Guild Wars 2 reveal they boasted how great the combat is.

ArenaNet knows this better than anyone else that the way current mechanics are set up, adding new content is combat is significantly harder than it should be. If a Rune or Sigil is overpowered in PvE, it’s not going to be a problem for competitive play.
But a new boon affects everything, a new condition affects everything. New utilities, new healing skills, new traits, new weapons. All of that affects EVERYTHING in Guild Wars 2.

To fix this problem, you start at the absolute base of the mechanics to identify the problem, I see the problem being Condition and Boon Duration, fix those and growing the combat will become easier.

Well, technically, getting rid of boons and conditions mechanics entirely in favor of a more stable mechanic structure that is also easily flexible but that is an entirely new beast that is a force to be reckoned with.

Condition/Boon Duration is Bad Design

in Profession Balance

Posted by: Ghotistyx.6942

Ghotistyx.6942

I’m not even sure what’s being argued here anymore. There’s a lot of statements going here, some that even contradict each other in the same posts.

However, I’m of the opinion that duration stats, as a concept, are fine. Even their implementation is mostly fine. Someone mentioned Food as being an issue, and that I’ll agree with. Its rather odd to see general food ( +-40% duration) more powerful than specialized food ( +-15%). I’d change things around, so that generalist food becomes +-15% Duration, while Specialized food moves to +-30%.

Fishsticks

Condition/Boon Duration is Bad Design

in Profession Balance

Posted by: Drarnor Kunoram.5180

Drarnor Kunoram.5180

I’m not even sure what’s being argued here anymore. There’s a lot of statements going here, some that even contradict each other in the same posts.

However, I’m of the opinion that duration stats, as a concept, are fine. Even their implementation is mostly fine. Someone mentioned Food as being an issue, and that I’ll agree with. Its rather odd to see general food ( +-40% duration) more powerful than specialized food ( +-15%). I’d change things around, so that generalist food becomes +-15% Duration, while Specialized food moves to +-30%.

Yeah, at this point I’m not even sure either. The OP seems to be rambling that every percieved balance issue is due to boon and condition duration, but has no evidence to back it up.

Dragonbrand |Drarnor Kunoram: Charr Necro
http://www.twitch.tv/reverse830
I’m a Geeleiver

Condition/Boon Duration is Bad Design

in Profession Balance

Posted by: Nova Stiker.8396

Nova Stiker.8396

I’m not even sure what’s being argued here anymore. There’s a lot of statements going here, some that even contradict each other in the same posts.

However, I’m of the opinion that duration stats, as a concept, are fine. Even their implementation is mostly fine. Someone mentioned Food as being an issue, and that I’ll agree with. Its rather odd to see general food ( +-40% duration) more powerful than specialized food ( +-15%). I’d change things around, so that generalist food becomes +-15% Duration, while Specialized food moves to +-30%.

Yeah, at this point I’m not even sure either. The OP seems to be rambling that every percieved balance issue is due to boon and condition duration, but has no evidence to back it up.

There is no DIRECT evidence but there is plenty of evidence to back up my claim stated in my previous posts.

But here is a fun one for you. What makes condition and boon duration good design?

Condition/Boon Duration is Bad Design

in Profession Balance

Posted by: Drarnor Kunoram.5180

Drarnor Kunoram.5180

I’m not even sure what’s being argued here anymore. There’s a lot of statements going here, some that even contradict each other in the same posts.

However, I’m of the opinion that duration stats, as a concept, are fine. Even their implementation is mostly fine. Someone mentioned Food as being an issue, and that I’ll agree with. Its rather odd to see general food ( +-40% duration) more powerful than specialized food ( +-15%). I’d change things around, so that generalist food becomes +-15% Duration, while Specialized food moves to +-30%.

Yeah, at this point I’m not even sure either. The OP seems to be rambling that every percieved balance issue is due to boon and condition duration, but has no evidence to back it up.

There is no DIRECT evidence but there is plenty of evidence to back up my claim stated in my previous posts.

But here is a fun one for you. What makes condition and boon duration good design?

An extra element of control and specialization. More variables on a single item makes that item easier to balance, not less. In addition, it lets people actually do things like Chillomancer or perma-protection Guardian builds, allowing for better build variety.

While Guardians and Necros only really make use of one of the two (boon or condition duration), everyone else enjoys the ability to meaningfully specialize in how they want to swing battle in their favor, whether through longer buffs, longer debuffs, more inherent toughness, better healing, or just more damage. Removing condition and boon duration limits the number of possible builds and decreases variety in the name of removing a balancing variable, which actually makes it harder to balance because it is one fewer point of control.

Dragonbrand |Drarnor Kunoram: Charr Necro
http://www.twitch.tv/reverse830
I’m a Geeleiver

Condition/Boon Duration is Bad Design

in Profession Balance

Posted by: coglin.1867

coglin.1867

I’m not even sure what’s being argued here anymore. There’s a lot of statements going here, some that even contradict each other in the same posts.

However, I’m of the opinion that duration stats, as a concept, are fine. Even their implementation is mostly fine. Someone mentioned Food as being an issue, and that I’ll agree with. Its rather odd to see general food ( +-40% duration) more powerful than specialized food ( +-15%). I’d change things around, so that generalist food becomes +-15% Duration, while Specialized food moves to +-30%.

Yeah, at this point I’m not even sure either. The OP seems to be rambling that every percieved balance issue is due to boon and condition duration, but has no evidence to back it up.

There is no DIRECT evidence but there is plenty of evidence to back up my claim stated in my previous posts.

But here is a fun one for you. What makes condition and boon duration good design?

The fact that you have to give up other offensive stats or defensive stat sakes it good design in my opinion. Particularly given that stacking negative condition duration, condition cleanses, skills that convert conditions to boons, and traits that remove or convert conditions, can negate duration value greatly. The fact that there are different ways to counter so many different things in this game, are why I like the games design.

A video on what weak PvPer’s and WvWer’s want.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6q3em9s5I4c