Guild Wars 2

coglin.1867:

Lily.1935:

coglin.1867:

Lily.1935:

coglin.1867:

Lily.1935:

You didn’t have to reply. I can’t make you do anything.

As others have mentioned, you posted misinformation, so I did need to reply.

Uhh, no i didn’t.

Umm, yes, yes you did. Example one is……………

Lily.1935:

However they are doing it. Their reason for balancing it in the way that they did at launch was because of how hexes worked in GW1.

thanks for misquoting me kitten. Believe. Not statement of fact. I might have forgotten to add “might have something to do with” to the line of text, but you are still misquoting me.

Lily.1935:

I didn’t imply that it was intentional. However they are doing it. I do believe that their reason for balancing it in the way that they did at launch was because of how hexes worked in GW1.

And unless you have anything to support that, being as it completely contradicts the reasoning the game creators are offering, it is completely inaccurate and misinformed.

multiple similarities between conditions and hexes from the two games. Conditions in gw2 are almost like hexes gutted and simplified for the new game. You can go back and see for yourself. Their uses and scaling is pretty striking how similar they are.

But you’re right I could be misinformed on that and I’ll drop this part of it.

oxtred.7658:

No idea about other games. But even if you find something, it’d require to rework the gw2 system entirely. It’s months, maybe years of working. Seeing how fast anet updates their game, you won’t see that before 2100. You can’t rework a combat system fully like that, especially when it doesn’t give you more gem buyers.

Not necessarily I don’t code, and I’m sure you don’t either. So you can’t say it will as much as i can’t say it wont.

And it actually it does give more gem buyers. For example, I know a large amount of people who refuse to buy gems because arena net are not addressing these types of problems. There is also the fact that a large chunk of the GW2 community is a carry over from GW1. And many of them love builds. Giving people more viable option to use means that people are going to want to buy more gems either to fill out their new gear, get new looks for the gear and so on. So, yes it does. How much does it effect it? I can’t actually say but it would have an positive impact in the long run.

We’re back on the same misconception: conditions are viable. The design flaw that makes them undesirable in optimised content doesn’t mean it’s not viable. You and I know it lacks something to be totally efficient in group play, but your average condi guardian spending 1k gems/ months to pay his legendary don’t. Yeah, most people, myself included, would be pleased with some new content, or some tweaked mechanics, but we’re not the target of anet’s update for now. Hardcore dungeon runners have enough money to buy everything with gold. I agree with you, ideally whoever is in charge of updating the game should listen to everyone and adress things like that. But i don’t need to be a professional coder to say such a change would be a lot of work. It’s not even about code, it’s about balance. Either you make the condition cap per player and world bosses are getting one shotted by 2500 bleeds, or you change the problem at its roots and give condi players reserved conditions, making hybrid specs a dream. Then people would complain, saying building a balanced build between condis and power is impossible, etc. No matter how you look at those kind of things, there’s no real solution, and that’s why 2 years later we’re still stuck with that. Not that i mind, i find the power supremacy in group totally fine, but that’s only a matter of personal opinion.

Lily.1935:

oxtred.7658:

No idea about other games. But even if you find something, it’d require to rework the gw2 system entirely. It’s months, maybe years of working. Seeing how fast anet updates their game, you won’t see that before 2100. You can’t rework a combat system fully like that, especially when it doesn’t give you more gem buyers.

Not necessarily I don’t code, and I’m sure you don’t either. So you can’t say it will as much as i can’t say it wont.

And here lies the problem. The specific people who did code the game explained what oxtred is telling you, and you claim your uninformed counter claim holds just as much wait. You are making opposing claims to the actual creators of the game and expect to be taken seriously.

Power has higher damage in a general sense. Yes, conditions can out perform power vs mobs that are designed to withstand power attacks. Conditions by pass armor.
Vs light and medium toughness foe Power is better.

Even if it was possible to remove the condition cap, It shouldn’t be remove because of the very passive and unblock-able nature of many conditions.

If they were to remove the cap, I would be in favor of adding a limitation to it. That limitation would be you would have to say with in range of skill type of the skill that applied that condition or it would be removed. melee would get a range like 900. Ranged attack like 1800 and ground targeting kills like 1000.

Condition are already greatly abused. This would keep it more on par with power with out making it super OP.

oxtred.7658:

We’re back on the same misconception: conditions are viable. The design flaw that makes them undesirable in optimised content doesn’t mean it’s not viable. You and I know it lacks something to be totally efficient in group play, but your average condi guardian spending 1k gems/ months to pay his legendary don’t. Yeah, most people, myself included, would be pleased with some new content, or some tweaked mechanics, but we’re not the target of anet’s update for now. Hardcore dungeon runners have enough money to buy everything with gold. I agree with you, ideally whoever is in charge of updating the game should listen to everyone and adress things like that. But i don’t need to be a professional coder to say such a change would be a lot of work. It’s not even about code, it’s about balance. Either you make the condition cap per player and world bosses are getting one shotted by 2500 bleeds, or you change the problem at its roots and give condi players reserved conditions, making hybrid specs a dream. Then people would complain, saying building a balanced build between condis and power is impossible, etc. No matter how you look at those kind of things, there’s no real solution, and that’s why 2 years later we’re still stuck with that. Not that i mind, i find the power supremacy in group totally fine, but that’s only a matter of personal opinion.

You think 100 people would all be able to max out their bleeds on a boss? or am i miss reading that? What if we started more on a small scale. Dungeons. could test the waters there view how it effects server performance, make adjustments as needed. I don’t think the problem is so unworkable that we can’t find a solution.

coglin.1867:

Lily.1935:

oxtred.7658:

No idea about other games. But even if you find something, it’d require to rework the gw2 system entirely. It’s months, maybe years of working. Seeing how fast anet updates their game, you won’t see that before 2100. You can’t rework a combat system fully like that, especially when it doesn’t give you more gem buyers.

Not necessarily I don’t code, and I’m sure you don’t either. So you can’t say it will as much as i can’t say it wont.

And here lies the problem. The specific people who did code the game explained what oxtred is telling you, and you claim your uninformed counter claim holds just as much wait. You are making opposing claims to the actual creators of the game and expect to be taken seriously.

provide me evidence.

Bhawb.7408:

In group play if a zerker build is ever out damaged by a condi build the zerker player either fell asleep or doesn’t know how to play. 10k DPS on a zerker build is pretty reasonable in group play (in fact its fairly low for a few builds), and yet to get 10k DPS in a condi build with 2k condition damage, you need to stack 70 bleeds. Even if you include burning (828 damage), poison (284), torment (214 while moving), you’d need to be able to maintain 25 stacks of bleeding and torment, and have permanent poison and burning, all on your own (assuming they allowed you your own stacks) just to match a lower DPS point than the “top” power builds reach.

Lily.1935:

The Condi warrior in that example capped at around 6.5k a second while a zerker necromancer caps at 10k auto. And proper warriors in groups do even better then that. And how would my suggestion buff them in solo? Giving people individualized caps doesn’t magically make you apply 300 bleeds. You’re still stuck at 25, it would just mean someone else wouldn’t be effected.

If you are going to compare numbers, do it right. A decently optimized warrior doing 10k dps in a group is probably at 25 might and 25 bloodlust. A condi build with 25 might/corruption should be at 3k+ condi dmg. 25 bleeds at 3k condi dmg is 4.8k dps. Bhawbs silly example of burning, poison, and max torment and bleeds would be 13.5k dps before factoring in power.

In the video maha linked, he is hitting ~600 power dmg along with that ~6k condi dps. (It’s also a heavy armor target.) Warriors that are hitting 10k dps in group setting rely on team buffs and those same team buffs would turn that 600 into something closer to 1-1.5k dps. (25% from vulnerability, banners, more might, not a heavy target, frost spirit etc.) He would be closer to 7-9k dps. A zerker build that gained 700 toughness from knights would be doing less than the condi build. Theoretical damage is not the problem so no buffs are required. Overriding is…

Maybe, I’ve just missed someone posting this before but wouldn’t the more elegant solution be to change all the minor traits that cause bleeds? I’m pretty sure the devs have swapped a minor and major trait before. If someone wanted the bleed on crit major, they would just have to actively chose it. A condi build could kindly ask a teammate to swap it without destroying an overall trait loadout. I highly doubt this would affect pvp balance if a proper replacement was picked. If condis are really that big of a drain on the server, it would also help since most ppl just wouldn’t pick that trait if they had the option so less lag. It would still be problematic for 5 condi builds in a group but a group could be ok with 1, maybe 2 condi builds. Ideal? No, but that seems like all the improvement that is practically needed without require an entire engine rework.

coglin.1867:

Lily.1935:

coglin.1867:

Lily.1935:

coglin.1867:

Lily.1935:

You didn’t have to reply. I can’t make you do anything.

As others have mentioned, you posted misinformation, so I did need to reply.

Uhh, no i didn’t.

Umm, yes, yes you did. Example one is……………

Lily.1935:

However they are doing it. Their reason for balancing it in the way that they did at launch was because of how hexes worked in GW1.

thanks for misquoting me kitten. Believe. Not statement of fact. I might have forgotten to add “might have something to do with” to the line of text, but you are still misquoting me.

Lily.1935:

I didn’t imply that it was intentional. However they are doing it. I do believe that their reason for balancing it in the way that they did at launch was because of how hexes worked in GW1.

And unless you have anything to support that, being as it completely contradicts the reasoning the game creators are offering, it is completely inaccurate and misinformed.

Dude, you freaking literealy edited her own “misinformation”, how could you still think you’re still in a position to tell her she’s inaccurate? You lost all credibility, and it’s too bad for you.

Poplolita.2638:

coglin.1867:

Lily.1935:

coglin.1867:

Lily.1935:

coglin.1867:

Lily.1935:

You didn’t have to reply. I can’t make you do anything.

As others have mentioned, you posted misinformation, so I did need to reply.

Uhh, no i didn’t.

Umm, yes, yes you did. Example one is……………

Lily.1935:

However they are doing it. Their reason for balancing it in the way that they did at launch was because of how hexes worked in GW1.

thanks for misquoting me kitten. Believe. Not statement of fact. I might have forgotten to add “might have something to do with” to the line of text, but you are still misquoting me.

Lily.1935:

I didn’t imply that it was intentional. However they are doing it. I do believe that their reason for balancing it in the way that they did at launch was because of how hexes worked in GW1.

And unless you have anything to support that, being as it completely contradicts the reasoning the game creators are offering, it is completely inaccurate and misinformed.

Dude, you freaking literealy edited her own “misinformation”, how could you still think you’re still in a position to tell her she’s inaccurate? You lost all credibility, and it’s too bad for you.

Because I am going off of supportable and accurate information and he is blurting out uninformed assumption. Edited? I quoted two sentences and omitted the rest of the post that was irrelevant. The real question here is, why are you defending someone claiming their opinion as fact when it contradicts what the literal experts in the area have stated in response to the issue?

coglin.1867:

Poplolita.2638:

coglin.1867:

Lily.1935:

coglin.1867:

Lily.1935:

coglin.1867:

Lily.1935:

You didn’t have to reply. I can’t make you do anything.

As others have mentioned, you posted misinformation, so I did need to reply.

Uhh, no i didn’t.

Umm, yes, yes you did. Example one is……………

Lily.1935:

However they are doing it. Their reason for balancing it in the way that they did at launch was because of how hexes worked in GW1.

thanks for misquoting me kitten. Believe. Not statement of fact. I might have forgotten to add “might have something to do with” to the line of text, but you are still misquoting me.

Lily.1935:

I didn’t imply that it was intentional. However they are doing it. I do believe that their reason for balancing it in the way that they did at launch was because of how hexes worked in GW1.

And unless you have anything to support that, being as it completely contradicts the reasoning the game creators are offering, it is completely inaccurate and misinformed.

Dude, you freaking literealy edited her own “misinformation”, how could you still think you’re still in a position to tell her she’s inaccurate? You lost all credibility, and it’s too bad for you.

Because I am going off of supportable and accurate information and he is blurting out uninformed assumption. Edited? I quoted two sentences and omitted the rest of the post that was irrelevant. The real question here is, why are you defending someone claiming their opinion as fact when it contradicts what the literal experts in the area have stated in response to the issue?

I never claimed my opinion was fact, and you removed what YOU thought was irrelevant but by doing so you completely change the context of what I was saying. And honestly, by doing that I can’t trust a word you say as fact. And I’ve asked you to provide evidence of your claim because I want to see it, not hear it from you. Provide a link. This will be a good start.

And I’m a girl you kitten Use proper pronouns.

DuckDuckBOOM.4097:

If you are going to compare numbers, do it right. A decently optimized warrior doing 10k dps in a group is probably at 25 might and 25 bloodlust. A condi build with 25 might/corruption should be at 3k+ condi dmg. 25 bleeds at 3k condi dmg is 4.8k dps. Bhawbs silly example of burning, poison, and max torment and bleeds would be 13.5k dps before factoring in power.

In the video maha linked, he is hitting ~600 power dmg along with that ~6k condi dps. (It’s also a heavy armor target.) Warriors that are hitting 10k dps in group setting rely on team buffs and those same team buffs would turn that 600 into something closer to 1-1.5k dps. (25% from vulnerability, banners, more might, not a heavy target, frost spirit etc.) He would be closer to 7-9k dps. A zerker build that gained 700 toughness from knights would be doing less than the condi build. Theoretical damage is not the problem so no buffs are required. Overriding is…

Maybe, I’ve just missed someone posting this before but wouldn’t the more elegant solution be to change all the minor traits that cause bleeds? I’m pretty sure the devs have swapped a minor and major trait before. If someone wanted the bleed on crit major, they would just have to actively chose it. A condi build could kindly ask a teammate to swap it without destroying an overall trait loadout. I highly doubt this would affect pvp balance if a proper replacement was picked. If condis are really that big of a drain on the server, it would also help since most ppl just wouldn’t pick that trait if they had the option so less lag. It would still be problematic for 5 condi builds in a group but a group could be ok with 1, maybe 2 condi builds. Ideal? No, but that seems like all the improvement that is practically needed without require an entire engine rework.

Its a bit stickier then you think. Many of the traits that cause problems are minor traits and can’t be swapped out. Although I’d love to be able to have a few options for the minor to be swapped I doubt that is going to happen any time soon. It would help a condi player in Dungeons a lot more but I doubt it will have too much effect on world events.

I also wasn’t asking to buff condi damage. Just keep it on a more fair playing field as power. Part of the issue I mention was how well power builds lend their aid to allies. And how condi builds do not but still have the potential to. Just about everything is set up to allow for very interesting condi teams but the condi caps are getting in their way.

Edit: I suppose I’m still a bit nostalgic for Guild wars 1. If you saw a build you could play it and chances are you could make it very good. Guild wars 2, I just see a mega tone of builds that can’t be used effectively because of several conflicts with how combat works.

Back! Your suggestion won’t work because of what i keep telling you: Anet won’t split pve/pvp, nor they will split dungeon/open world. I can’t imagine them changing their mind after 2 years because the 1000th post about conditions asked the exact same thing. Wouldn’t mind them to prove me wrong, though.

Lily.1935:

DuckDuckBOOM.4097:

Maybe, I’ve just missed someone posting this before but wouldn’t the more elegant solution be to change all the minor traits that cause bleeds? I’m pretty sure the devs have swapped a minor and major trait before. If someone wanted the bleed on crit major, they would just have to actively chose it. A condi build could kindly ask a teammate to swap it without destroying an overall trait loadout. I highly doubt this would affect pvp balance if a proper replacement was picked. If condis are really that big of a drain on the server, it would also help since most ppl just wouldn’t pick that trait if they had the option so less lag. It would still be problematic for 5 condi builds in a group but a group could be ok with 1, maybe 2 condi builds. Ideal? No, but that seems like all the improvement that is practically needed without require an entire engine rework.

Its a bit stickier then you think. Many of the traits that cause problems are minor traits and can’t be swapped out. Although I’d love to be able to have a few options for the minor to be swapped I doubt that is going to happen any time soon. It would help a condi player in Dungeons a lot more but I doubt it will have too much effect on world events.

What I’m saying is change those minor traits to major traits. For example, swap rending strikes (major) on warrior with precise strikes (minor). Now all warriors cause vulnerability on crits instead of bleeds for baseline. A warrior could still have the option of picking precise strikes as a major trait now. Example, a warrior wants to do 10% more dmg vs bleeding targets (grandmaster minor trait) so he picks rending strikes as the first major trait. A condi build shows up and says, “they will never stop bleeding with me here.” The warrior changes the trait and both people are better off now. Whereas now, a 6/5/0/0/3 warrior isn’t going to swap to 6/0/x/x/x just for the condi build.

For necros, swap barbed precision with something like reaper’s precision. Sharpshooter with precise sites for engineer? The ranger bleed on crit trait is a major. Despite being my main (or maybe because), I cant really think of a simple and fair replacement that would generically work for mesmer but I’m sure the devs could rework something or maybe the mesmer stays as is.

The warrior example is a unique case because of AoO (10% more dmg vs bleeders) but the rest of the classes when going for power builds wouldn’t actively pick these traits. Since calculating bleeds can cause a lot of server strain, this sort of change would reduce server strain from most power builds while making power builds not innately overwrite condi build bleed stacks.

Really most conditions could be fixed rather easily to better allow for more people to use them. (confusion & agony aside they are more or less fine as is)

Bleeding for instance. If you look at abilities that apply stacks of bleeding you will notice they either apply long duration stacks & or apply multiple stacks at once.
Simple solution would be to reduce the number of stacks applied per ability or reduce the duration of bleeds. Then simply buff how bleeding scales to compensate.

Now you can have 2-5 people (depending how much you alter it) easily applying bleeds in a group without reducing the effect others have.

Now look at burning. In closed beta it used to scale in stacks like bleeding did. It worked fine but they felt it was to similar.
How about this as a simple solution.
“Whenever a target has X or more seconds of burning on them already any new burns applied will instead apply Y stacks of agony”
Kinda makes sense right, I’d feel pretty agonized if I was on fire and someone came along and dumped gas on me, wouldn’t you ?[=

Poison is the kittene to rework.

What if in PVE only poison instead scaled in intensity. Each stack doing the same amount of damage per second as it does now but each stack only reducing healing by 10% with a maximum of 10 stacks.

Vulnerability I won’t try to rework because champions & legendary mobs already have a uptime reduction making it hard to keep up 25 stacks unless you get specific group builds.

http://dragonseason.com/Front/tabid/124/EntryId/212/Lunch-with-Colin-Johanson-Part-III.aspx

There’s a cap on condition stacks of 25. In a scenario where you have two thieves attacking a boss and one of them can achieve a stack of 25 by themselves, the other one essentially becomes useless because they’ve got nothing to stack on. Is anything being done to address that to make them less redundant?

Colin: Currently no. Interesting statistic for you: every condition in the game costs server bandwidth. ‘Cause we have to track how often the condition is running, what the duration of that condition is and what the stack is. So the more stacks we allow, the more expensive it gets because we’re tracking every additional stack on there. And so we could say, you can have infinite stacks. Number one: that becomes really unbalanced. But number two: it’s actually extremely expensive for us, on a performance basis. That’s one of those weird, kind of back-end server issues that can help make game designer decisions regardless of what you want to do with it.

Lily.1935:

coglin.1867:

Lily.1935:

oxtred.7658:

No idea about other games. But even if you find something, it’d require to rework the gw2 system entirely. It’s months, maybe years of working. Seeing how fast anet updates their game, you won’t see that before 2100. You can’t rework a combat system fully like that, especially when it doesn’t give you more gem buyers.

Not necessarily I don’t code, and I’m sure you don’t either. So you can’t say it will as much as i can’t say it wont.

And here lies the problem. The specific people who did code the game explained what oxtred is telling you, and you claim your uninformed counter claim holds just as much wait. You are making opposing claims to the actual creators of the game and expect to be taken seriously.

provide me evidence.

Why do you post and claim misinformation about game mechanics, and promote your personal opinion as an actual fact, then demand evidence of common knowledge?

Someone tried to even correct you and inform you, and you went on to push your agenda and attack them simply because they didn’t appreciate the fact that you are promoting inaccuracies and pushing your own assumption, while ignoring known facts.

Lily.1935:

And I’m a girl you kitten Use proper pronouns.

FYI, this is an English forums, and the masculine term is a proper use, in each and every case in the English language. Secondly, you have done nothing but attack people who disagree with you or who do not appreciate your personal opinion. To assume someone knows if your male or female and attack them when they do not, show just how personal, bias, and rude that you are making a conscience effort to be.

Lily.1935:

provide me evidence.

And I believe one of many, many developer post that answers you reply here, is in the post just above. This displays your intent to promote the misinformation of your personal agenda, in that you actually rejected this common knowledge fact. Happily accepting to continue pushing your previous claims. and demanding anyone who disagreed with you to provide evidence.

oxtred.7658:

Back! Your suggestion won’t work because of what i keep telling you: Anet won’t split pve/pvp, nor they will split dungeon/open world. I can’t imagine them changing their mind after 2 years because the 1000th post about conditions asked the exact same thing. Wouldn’t mind them to prove me wrong, though.

Nothing is set in stone with them. And they already have split skills which they said they didn’t want to do. They also said they didn’t want players to change their builds on the fly so they could feel like a unique hero. I don’t remember the exact words but the second point for sure is something arena net has gone back on and changed.

dancingmonkey.4902:

Why do you post and claim misinformation about game mechanics, and promote your personal opinion as an actual fact, then demand evidence of common knowledge?

I didn’t.

dancingmonkey.4902:

FYI, this is an English forums, and the masculine term is a proper use, in each and every case in the English language.

No its not. And its very disrespectful at the same time.

dancingmonkey.4902:

And I believe one of many, many developer post that answers you reply here, is in the post just above. This displays your intent to promote the misinformation of your personal agenda, in that you actually rejected this common knowledge fact. Happily accepting to continue pushing your previous claims. and demanding anyone who disagreed with you to provide evidence.

He outright lied to me and intentionally edited the information to fit what he wanted me to say. Also, I didn’t deny that there was a mechanical issue with it, I stated that a solution could be found. And no developer has responded to this thread.

So, if you are done I have better things to do then listen to people trying to lie to me and twist what I have been trying to say.

DuckDuckBOOM.4097:

http://dragonseason.com/Front/tabid/124/EntryId/212/Lunch-with-Colin-Johanson-Part-III.aspx

There’s a cap on condition stacks of 25. In a scenario where you have two thieves attacking a boss and one of them can achieve a stack of 25 by themselves, the other one essentially becomes useless because they’ve got nothing to stack on. Is anything being done to address that to make them less redundant?

Colin: Currently no. Interesting statistic for you: every condition in the game costs server bandwidth. ‘Cause we have to track how often the condition is running, what the duration of that condition is and what the stack is. So the more stacks we allow, the more expensive it gets because we’re tracking every additional stack on there. And so we could say, you can have infinite stacks. Number one: that becomes really unbalanced. But number two: it’s actually extremely expensive for us, on a performance basis. That’s one of those weird, kind of back-end server issues that can help make game designer decisions regardless of what you want to do with it.

One of the things people have been talking about is having their own individual stack limit that they can apply, rather than an infinite amount on one boss.

Colin: Yes, it’s tough. It’s certainly something we can look at, it does drastically change the way that the professions play, right? It does say “you can no longer stack all of one type of condition”. It might change the skills on each profession if we were to do that. It would encourage a little more group play to some extent. It’s not something we’re really talking about, but it’s an interesting idea. I’d have to think a lot about what the effects of that would be overall, but it’s an interesting… interesting idea.

Oh, thanks for the link. That is really helpful. That second part is actually much closer to what I wanted to hear. Thanks.

Please stay on topic and keep the discussion without ad hominem. I could also say i’m done listening to a dull argument old of 2 years, of people trying to enforce a certain playstyle on me. I didn’t. Your exemple of trait system is game wide. Impacting dungeons without having effects on the whole game is the issue here, since, as said countless time, condi are extremely powerful everywhere but here. I don’t know how to put it more clearly, it’s both an uneccessary and an impossible change. Condis use DoT, damage over time. Pve is about burst. Even if you move the cap, the ramp up time for condis will still make them inferior in group, and crazily powerful in solo.
Off topic, but yup, an unidentified human being on internet will be refered as “he”. Still better than “it”, and since there’s no way to know, it was just a general assumption, no need to get mad on that.

Yes, yes you did. The devs stated it was because of back end information flow restrictions and information transfer cost, yet you claimed it was because of hexes in GW1. You furthered that by sticking to your story when you demanded proof. Which has been posted in this very thread with a link to the devs statements.

Yes, yes it is in fact part of the English language in which it is proper, although not required, to use the masculine term in all cases. This is as well, another common knowledge and provable fact. As is pointed out and supported by another poster here

oxtred.7658:

Off topic, but yup, an unidentified human being on internet will be refered as “he”. Still better than “it”, and since there’s no way to know, it was just a general assumption, no need to get mad on that.

The fact that you are making such things personal Lily, are a clear display that you refuse to listen to anyone who refutes your statements even when they are factually inaccurate.

I see no lies other your your personal claims of reasoning for actions or situations that are inaccurate.

Regardless of what you wish to claim, hexes have nothing to do with it. It boils down to the cost of tracking every single stack, of every single condition, by every single player. Which in my opinion should have prevented an implementation of the current conditions system or its balance. The problem is that even small changes effect more then just conditions. It also effects the value of condition cleansing skills, utilities, and traits, and how they function. For example, if they attempted to compress skills that apply stacks, such as a skill that applies 4s bleed to a point in which it simply applied 4 ticks of bleed at once, then cleanses would become useless. Given what they state is the problem with condition tracking, compressing the condition stacks is the only way I can see making a change that allows multiple condition users to work together. The problem that creates is that now cleanses of any kind become next to useless, causing a need for either a total rebalance, or or a new way to defend against conditions.

OP makes thread about team construction and someone posts the mandatory condition war solo. Great time to be alive.

dancingmonkey.4902:

snip

No. No I didn’t. And I said believe it had something to do with hexes. Not a statement of fact. You seem to be confusing the two. And its unhealth for a conversation. I have to keep repeating myself and you guys keep not listening. So until you have something to add to the actual conversation, we are done.

oxtred.7658:

Please stay on topic and keep the discussion without ad hominem. I could also say i’m done listening to a dull argument old of 2 years, of people trying to enforce a certain playstyle on me. I didn’t. Your exemple of trait system is game wide. Impacting dungeons without having effects on the whole game is the issue here, since, as said countless time, condi are extremely powerful everywhere but here. I don’t know how to put it more clearly, it’s both an uneccessary and an impossible change. Condis use DoT, damage over time. Pve is about burst. Even if you move the cap, the ramp up time for condis will still make them inferior in group, and crazily powerful in solo.
Off topic, but yup, an unidentified human being on internet will be refered as “he”. Still better than “it”, and since there’s no way to know, it was just a general assumption, no need to get mad on that.

Except I was identified as female in the thread already and he continued to use he.

More on topic, you say they wont and history has shown us that they are both willing to make changes and will go back on what they said if needed. And in this case, it is needed. You can disagree with me on it being needed. I’m not a lone person who has this opinion.

Lily.1935:

Except I was identified as female in the thread already and he continued to use he.

Get over it. No one cares what gender you are. The fact that you care to spend more time arguing over your gender, and your misconceptions shows little commitment to the topic.

Lily.1935:

dancingmonkey.4902:

snip

No. No I didn’t. And I said believe it had something to do with hexes. Not a statement of fact. You seem to be confusing the two. And its unhealth for a conversation. I have to keep repeating myself and you guys keep not listening. So until you have something to add to the actual conversation, we are done.

Yet you said

Lily.1935:

multiple similarities between conditions and hexes from the two games. Conditions in gw2 are almost like hexes gutted and simplified for the new game. You can go back and see for yourself. Their uses and scaling is pretty striking how similar they are.

But you’re right I could be misinformed on that and I’ll drop this part of it.

So now your going back on this statement as well?

You appear to be back peddling fast on your statements. For example, if you were not promoting your claim as fact, why would you demand another poster they need to provide proof?

Not to mention you have clearly gone out of your way not to acknowledge why conditions are the way they are, even after implying your inaccurate assumptions were correct when you argued with those trying to correct you, then further in promoting it by demanding they provide you with proof. Proof that you clearly avoided even remotely acknowledging.

robertul.3679:

OP makes thread about team construction and someone posts the mandatory condition war solo. Great time to be alive.

Because people don’t always understand why condi builds are not optimal in groups. Theoretical DPS is fine for an armor/build that gets at least 700 toughness over a full zerker. The practical DPS due to condi stack limits is not. Solo videos are a good showcase of the lower limits of the theoretical DPS which in theory can be further boosted by team support. Since you have people like bhawb talking about 70 bleed stacks, these videos need to be posted to counter those arguments.

Lily.1935:

More on topic, you say they wont and history has shown us that they are both willing to make changes and will go back on what they said if needed. And in this case, it is needed. You can disagree with me on it being needed. I’m not a lone person who has this opinion.

Man, woman, llama or lily pad… just drop it and stay on topic. It is the internet and a thick skin will go a long way.

History… has shown that the game supported trait resets in PvP from beta. The devs felt that functionality was not good for PvE/WvW for various reasons. They changed their mind and a relatively simple switch was made to implement something that already existed .

History has shown that the devs have repeatedly mentioned that there is a technical limitation of the condi cap. (I only linked 1 but there are others if you googlefu harder.) That’s why I mentioned the idea of just removing easy bleed stacks on zerker builds. It doesn’t solve the problem completely but it can alleviate some of it.

Lily.1935:

coglin.1867:

Power builds do not have back end restrictions. Conditions on the other hand have to be tracked individually per condition, per stack, as well as fluctuating condition damage stat levels on the player. This is in fact, why conditions have the limitations they do. Having all of that in mind, I am a little curious why the OP implies that Anet is intentionally limiting their options or how a player can play.

I didn’t imply that it was intentional. However they are doing it. I do believe that their reason for balancing it in the way that they did at launch was because of how hexes worked in GW1.

I think it has more to do with server architecture than anything else.
I see no reason conditions should be capped for more players and not individually.
There have been an overwhelmingly large number of posts on the matter and I honestly believe that if they could have done something about it they would have done it long ago.

It is pretty obvious that this is an issue they’re very focused on but don’t have a fix for.
I understand how you’re feeling but I just don’t think they’ll be able to do it.

Lily.1935:

oxtred.7658:

Just like stacking toughness works in open world but is selfish in dungeons, stacking a solo stat won’t work in speedruns. You still can use your condi whatever in an “all welcomed” run who doesn’t care about group effort.

Why can’t people be like “You know what, you’re right Lily. There does seem to be a problem with how its balanced for PvE. And this does lead to player discrimination. Perhaps we should discuss this further and help open the conversation to the devs to try and find a solution everyone will be happy with instead of pretending the problem doesn’t exist.” But that’ll never happen. Instead we get “Just play your bad build and quit complaining about it being bad and join bad parties.” Getting frustrated with the number of traits and skills that are wasted potential because condi’s override each other? WHO CARES! Lets have more worthless skills and traits that are only a small step away from being good.

You are right but no amount of discussing it on the forums will fix things.
The devs are aware.
Yours isn’t the first and won’t be the last thread on this topic. I’ve been here since day one of this game’s launch.
I’ve seen threads like this one over and over and over again. The devs have seen them too – discussing it is pointless at the moment unless some of us actually know enough about programming and server architecture and whatnot to be able to provide actual solutions to a technical issue rather than the usual “this is bad please fix it” idea every thread on this topic has delivered without fail.

Lily.1935:

The squeaky wheel gets the oil. That’s what my mom always said. And I’ll keep reopening the discussion until its fixed. I honestly don’t give two kittens what arena net said they wont do. They also said they wouldn’t let players change their build for free because of some really really bad reason about personalizing the hero and they said didn’t want to split skill balance for PvE and PvP. So if this thread gets closed in a week, I’ll just make a new one.

Your attitude is admirable but you have to realize you’re just frustrating yourself and doing not much else.
If you think you’re the only one with this issue you’re wrong.
If you feel they’re not aware you’re again wrong.

If they can find a way to fix it they will and make a lot of players happy.

Harper.4173:

Your attitude is admirable but you have to realize you’re just frustrating yourself and doing not much else.
If you think you’re the only one with this issue you’re wrong.
If you feel they’re not aware you’re again wrong.

If they can find a way to fix it they will and make a lot of players happy.

I’m just going to address this last point because You are right. It is just frustrating myself with this.

Never said I was the only one with this issue. If I believed I was, I wouldn’t say anything. (For example, I have an issue with using the engineer’s grenade kit. I don’t have the money to buy one of those fancy mouses with the buttons on the side. I want to, and its an issue I have, but thats more of a personal issue then something that I would otherwise bring up on the forums and ultimately not worth discussing. )

Oh I don’t doubt they are aware. But problems get ignored if it isn’t brought up from time to time.

And lastly. Here is to hoping.

dancingmonkey.4902:

snip

No, you guys keep bringing it back up. I’ve stated multiple times that it was something I BELIEVED! And you continued to bring it up. SO i keep having to repeat myself. Honestly, I have to repeat myself less when babysitting a 3 year old.

The damage potential for conditions and zerker isnt that different. This is evidenced in solo runs, with comparable times. The issue is clearly relating to the cap in groups, and the fact that poison and burn can only have one application per target. And burn offers significant improvements to condi DPS, in the realm of 1.5kdps at decent levels of condition damage.

I threw these numbers out in another thread, using very basic maths. Comparing like, for like, so we are assuming optimal group situations (in an alternate world where conditions are capped at 25 per individual, and everything is seperate) but otherwise might stacking etc is the same. I calculated that it is quite reasonable to be having over 3k condition damage from rabid gear (all exotic except accessories), aristocracy runes, 25 might, base trait stats, food/nourishment, corruption, banner of strength and bursting. Essentially, the set up you would have if you took the condi war solo build into a group. Could be higher if we assumed external supply of might, and so took runes of undead, but lets keep it simple.

3200ish Condition Damage
25 stacks of bleed, burning, and 7 stacks of torment. Its about 7.3k DPS. And this is on a stationary boss, so torment is single damage. The current DPS war outputs if memory serves about 11k dps. On a target with 25 vuln, and you having 25 might, even with a low power build you should be hitting between 3-4k dps (no maths on this, but it seems reasonable. feel free to correct).

So here is a condition warrior, hitting at basically 10/11k dps, and has a massive amount of survivability courtesy of rabids toughness spec.

Side notes about personal opinions. I think vulnerability should improve condition damage, because to me it makes sense that with weakened armor they would get inflicted with worse bleeds, more poison, the burns would hurt more, etc. You bring that into play, and condition damage per second is (wow, very convenient) OVER 9000!

Plus, I would like to see anet bring out a stat set, that is rampagers with primary condition. So we actually have a solid condition contender to zerker that doesnt build toughness. Hitting like a knight, whilst condition like a rabid.

But condition capping needs to be solved first.

Lily.1935:

Harper.4173:

Your attitude is admirable but you have to realize you’re just frustrating yourself and doing not much else.
If you think you’re the only one with this issue you’re wrong.
If you feel they’re not aware you’re again wrong.

If they can find a way to fix it they will and make a lot of players happy.

I’m just going to address this last point because You are right. It is just frustrating myself with this.

Never said I was the only one with this issue. If I believed I was, I wouldn’t say anything. (For example, I have an issue with using the engineer’s grenade kit. I don’t have the money to buy one of those fancy mouses with the buttons on the side. I want to, and its an issue I have, but thats more of a personal issue then something that I would otherwise bring up on the forums and ultimately not worth discussing. )

Oh I don’t doubt they are aware. But problems get ignored if it isn’t brought up from time to time.

And lastly. Here is to hoping.

I understand your frustation, other people like me are 100% with you. I played DoT classes during 10 years, and sadly, this is the first game where I have to face this issue. I did not play any pve (fractal/dungeon) during 1 year simply because I caterology refuse to play something else than condition.

I think people like you who keep bringing this issue to life is a good way to remind arenaNet that we still exist.

DuckDuckBOOM.4097:

robertul.3679:

OP makes thread about team construction and someone posts the mandatory condition war solo. Great time to be alive.

Because people don’t always understand why condi builds are not optimal in groups.

It was posted for e-pen and we all know it.

Why condition builds are not very rewarding (gameplay and psychological) right now: Design of the hostile NPCs

It’s quite clear that mobs, majority that is, have high HP and almost 0 armor. (Hopefully ranks have multiplying figures, so that they boost every stat, not only NPC’s HP and DMG)

Since high Armor is counter against direct damage, high HP pretty much counters conditions.

In some ways, putting more high armor mobs could make conditions more desired, but in turn this will, little by little, combat against the “play how I want” philosophy.

But when thinking about group content, the variance of mobs wouldn’t be overwhelming, due to the number of player and some of them using other builds.

For Solo gameplay, it’d be better off to keep variety of mob stats out of it.

Then there’s some good sounding ideas by the community, for PvE-only condition mechanics.
Critical conditions (Don’t remember much of the details of this idea, but I get image that critical hits would instead result in dealing the condition damageXduration as armor ignoring dmg), Unique conditions that are applied on specific number of stacks and etc.

Most enemies (at least in dungeons) seem to have about 2300-2600 armor which is quite a bit more than what berserker geared players have.

robertul.3679:

DuckDuckBOOM.4097:

robertul.3679:

OP makes thread about team construction and someone posts the mandatory condition war solo. Great time to be alive.

Because people don’t always understand why condi builds are not optimal in groups.

It was posted for e-pen and we all know it.

It’s posted for all the times people say condition damage is bad without understanding how much damage it does, and the actual context of where the statement applies. The fact that it was me who did that video is just bonus points for me.

I’ll just drop in to say that condi builds for rangers always outdamage power builds against any target with 2600 armor and above. Ranger multipliers for power have been cut in order to account for the pet’s damage but pet dps is not affected by the ranger’s stats in any ‘multiplier’ sort of way. The max damage available is through running an Axe/Dagger-Shortbow condi build with Fire Spirit at 4600+dps useable at any range up to 900, a zerker longbow type build at 4200 dps or sword type build at 4500 dps is not only lower in absolute damage, but range as well in both cases the ranges you can use are very narrow. In addition to the very large difference in survivability. The condi build normally runs a cat to add direct damage which runs at full efficiency, since the damage is independent of the ranger’s spec. Frost spirit and spotter, together with Opening Strike also supports power builds in the party, so it’s not correct that it’s necessarily selfish.

Necros are in an even worse situation as anyone who has even touched a necro knows there is no cleave, but there is AoE – but very importantly, the AoEs are more effective as condition appliers than for their initial detonation’s direct damage. Berserker necro builds based on F1 skill 1 are horrendously bad relative to a Rabid spec where the AoE can actually be used on mobs. The statement that condis don’t synergise well with teams is likely due to, and is true for, Necros. Necros are also the only class in the game with zero projectile reflection/nullification abilities, the rest have at least personal projectile null even if they don’t have AoE null. Their place in design was a condition tank, drawing conditions off everyone else so they could run at max efficiency. They pull all the Weakness, Blinds, and such. The problem with them in PvE is that no boss has seriously enough conditions damaging enough for necros to ever be needed. Even Volkov’s bleed can be easily nulled by any form of light field whirl, any null field or even a ranger water field.

I consider these two classes as enforced condition classes, you can ‘play how you want’, but the alternatives are seriously inferior. In nearly all other classes’ case, direct damage tends to outperform condition damage unless the target’s toughness is ridiculously high. However, enforced condition classes cannot be effective if more than one exists in a party. If there is more than one necro/ranger in a party, they’ll overwrite each other if they use condi, and they’re far inferior to warriors, thieves, elementalists, guardians or engineers if they’re using a direct mode. The direct damage side of the Ranger camp has not acknowledged this for more than a year and they continue to deny the maths, but it doesn’t change the reality behind it. I’d go so far as to say that if in your party Rangers+Necromancers > 1, your run will be slower by definition than any other possible combination of classes. And if Rangers + Necromancers = 1, then for your run to not be noticeably inferior, the 1 must be running conditions. This is pretty much the reason why Necros and Rangers have almost died out in any dungeon scenario, where Rangers have a slight advantage over Necros that tends to be nullified by low average pug ranger skill.

Mesmers are complicated issues as they run on crit and stacking power instead of precision leads to dps losses. They’re also bad on any uncrittable target, and not maximising crit properly on a mesmer tends to yield an inferior warrior.

The day players in Dire gear can out-damage me with a third of their armor and half of their HP is the day they should then give all armor a 25% chance on hit to remove a condition.

Dire wasn’t part of the base game because it provided too much defense for the damage. It was added for condi PvE’ers because the condition cap led them to having no defense and no damage.

ANet has come out and stated that the condition cap cannot be altered at the moment due to technological limitations for their budget. Every calculation for conditions is done server-side, including the time in between ticks, the damage they deal, number of stacks (per player calculated separately), and any modifiers attached to them (calculated per player, separately). Allowing for an infinite cap would not only break conditions in PvP (there would be quite literally zero reason to run any given power build in PvP/WvW), but it would also require entirely new infrastructure internally in order to handle these calculations safely without risking the servers crashing from say, a wbt with a high population. To “buy new servers” is a massive economic undertaking and would run ANet several million dollars to achieve.

Hmmm. Gw1 had a degen/regen system. Bleed gives 2 points of degen, burning gives 4, regen gives 3 points the other way for total degen of 3. They also had a max degen level.

This isn’t a full solution. Maybe max the degen at 25 points and rework cond. Would lose condition damage as a stat though. What could replace it or work I. That kind of system?

Another option might be to just stop checking stats once condi applied. Set it and forget it. That might decrease server load and allow for newer dynamics. Isn’t condi more of a I set you on fire and you burn for a bit while I kite anyhow? If I get might later it’s not like I retroactively set a better fire. Direct damage, if I get a boon before I hit you I do hit you harder. If I get a boon later , well, I already hit you.

Edit: back to degen ticks, maybe give world bosses more than 25.

DeceiverX.8361:

Dire wasn’t part of the base game because it provided too much defense for the damage. It was added for condi PvE’ers because the condition cap led them to having no defense and no damage.

That’s a load of lies. What is it with people making random claims when we have dev post, interviews, and statements, that say otherwise? Your statement has nothing to do with why they stated they didn’t bring dire gear in from the start.

As well we have already proven that in almost every case (the only exception is necromancer) that a direct damage builds with soldiers gear do the same damage output as the condition damage build counter parts in dire gear.