Guild Wars 2

Form.8741:

Try avoiding all of the massive condition spam weapon skills and condispam utilities(think engineer, necro, etc.) and condispam runes and traits (think Mesmer, thief, engineer, etc.) and passives (guardian etc.).

Here’s a question: why are you bothering? Why are you trying to avoid auto-attacks (because those are the only “spam” abilities that actually exist)? They aren’t the heavy-hitting skills. Against a direct damage build, do you try to avoid the autos? No? Then why do you blow your dodges/blocks/cleanses on condition build autos that hurt even less? Other skills have reasons to avoid them. Auto-attacks are always an endless supply, regardless of your opponent’s build.

And if you’re seriously scared of a Guardian’s Virtue of Justice passive, you may want to just leave PvP altogether. It’s incidental damage at best, since condition damage guardians suck, so that burning never really hurts (oh no, his 5th attack did an additional 328 damage to me, I am so screwed…).

Form.8741:

The only interest games hold for me is when they challenge my skill solo or as part of a very small group where each person actually matters.

Then I’m sorry, but I doubt the game is for you.

The thing is, sure, 1v1 “works”, especially in WvW. But it’s painfully obvious that it’s not a design target, and that the whole game works upon the assumption of always wanting to bring more players.

Nothing about GW2 supports or promotes smallscale combat. In fact, everything about it’s combat system promotes fighting unfair. You don’t want to fight 2v2. The enemy has a chance of winning. However, any game mode supports the notion of bringing 3++ players instead. And the game – to be fair, realistically – rewards being unfair. Fight 2 players by bringing 10 players. Easier kills, full rewards for everyone, done faster, can go somewhere else faster.

For the type of combat you seek, a MOBA like DotA2 or SMITE might be more suited. That genre very much codifies and centralizes the concept of duel-like combat, scaling up to 5v5 but stopping there and giving a lot of attention to individual combat performance.

Form.8741:

I am not a guildie or a group player who likes to join a mob, I am a person who wants to test my skill against someone else. I prefer 1v1/2v2 fights. Every argument I make about fixes/changes is based on their use/efficacy in small fights. I don’t care about huge mobs that autocleanse, autoheal, etc., in wvw. It’s a boring playstyle and has been boring since it began. The only interest games hold for me is when they challenge my skill solo or as part of a very small group where each person actually matters.

The design of this game around groups instead of solos is prone to making the single person feel insignificant and useless on their own. I don’t like that concept, and I don’t think it makes for good game longevity.

I see where your coming from I roam a lot its all I do I have 7 classes at 80 all built to roam as best as possible.

I could make a long post about roaming and dueling but it doesn’t matter. If you like roaming and dueling then you have to understand that game isn’t balanced around it. It’s blatantly obvious that 1v1’s get very little considerations for 1v1’s. I can’t remember a patch note about anything related to 1v1’s and solo roaming and 1v2’s.

Thinking the game should be balanced around 1v1 is just not excepting reality.

Form.8741:

Either you preach to the choir (supporters who already know and agree) or you preach to the devil (who will never agree). Debate and forum threads are basically useless for all except venting, no matter how obviously correct you might be. People either disagree or agree before they even start reading, and no forum post has EVER changed someone’s mind if they had a strong opinion to begin with.

Have fun condi wars 2 players, that’s all you’ll have as long as you keep saying condi is fine. That’s all anyone is playing in pvp/wvw now, a bunch of condi stackers and a constant counterattempt to try to purge all the condis constantly placed. It’s no small wonder engi is king of the hill with necro not far behind.

If the meta is full of condition spam and that causes problems for you, then why not stack more vitality and condition removal? Aside from dodge/block/avoid of nasty condition-applying skills, aren’t those things counters to condition spam? If you are frequently going 1v1 against condition spammers, won’t using those things cause you to beat them more often?

Room for error is the biggest differentiator in this game between fair and unfair/OP skills/debuffs/etc.

Any build that focuses on direct damage sacrifices room for error by having less HP, less toughness, less CC/condi removal, etc. They also tend to have smaller AOEs or have other differentiators making it harder to do damage consistently and successfully. Many CC/condi skills also have a longer range, and ranged direct damage is generally much weaker than melee damage, so condi easily does more damage than direct damage at range for most classes. Most builds that focus on condition damage can maintain a higher room for error because the skills have larger AOE, the builds can have higher hp/toughness because fewer stats need to be devoted to damage (1 [condition damage] vs 3 [power precition ferocity]) and a LOT more flexibility.

Condition damage melts an enemy at long range while the melee attacker or weaker direct damage ranged attacks can be kept out of range or their damage greatly limited by range. Condition removal is not plentiful enough to offset condition application, and any condition spammer always stacks far more than one condition. Confusion, bleeding, torment, poison, burning, chilling all do some amount of damage, and then they are buried under disables that often prevent removal of the damaging conditions unless the condi removal skill purges all (usually 40-60 second cooldown so once you use it, you’re screwed when the enemy pours on the same conditions 5-10 seconds later). Some jobs have no skills that remove all conditions and have only one or two skills on long CDs that remove up to 3 conditions (thief etc.). There is no guarantee that damaging conditions will be removed by these skills, and often the same conditions get reapplied as soon as they are removed.

Professions with limited access to regeneration or condition removal are always at a disadvantage against anyone who spams conditions. All dps builds that can actually do much direct damage at all require sacrificing a lot of survivability.

Condition builds have lots of room for error. DPS builds do not. This is why condition builds are the meta (just like warriors have been a dominant prof for a long time). Less skill required = easier to get results = more people play the same things = less diversity. The only ones who go against this are diehards who would rather be punished constantly just to get some gratification by beating the system on rare occasion (direct damage beating condi spammers, a rare thing since direct damage builds have so little room for error and condi spammers have so MUCH room for error).

Where are condition builds the meta? Certianly not in PvE. Not in WvW, either. The recent Tournament showed that it definitely is not there at high level PvP (one condition build between both finals, and never more than one per team).

Condition damage builds still trade off significant damage for that durability. Soldier’s necro axe out-damages Carrion necro scepter, and the former is tankier and direct damage (even against Soldier’s amulet Warriors). How does that figure into your “calculations?”

Yeah. Let’s nerf condition damage so we can make way for more build diversity. We won’t see condition damage anymore, but those power builds will finally get a chance to shine for a change.

If all you do is small scale roaming in WvW (literally the only place in the game where conditions are viable) why not build specifically with conditions in mind? Ignore toughness and stack vitality, actually invest in -condition duration food, and take as many condition cleanses as possible.

I play a thief in small scale wvw, most would agree they have some of the worst ways to deal with condition removal, but conditions hardly give me much trouble. I play both a condition and direct damage build.

Once you realize that conditions are not spammed anymore than direct damage is and that there are big cooldowns to look for and dodge, things become a lot easier. Don’t panic the second you see a bit of bleeding on you. Understand that you can’t remove or avoid all conditions, just as you can’t avoid all direct damage.

In WvW you can stack -60% condition duration easily. That is ~60% less damage taken throughout a fight against a condition build. An 8 second bleed becomes 3.2 seconds, but because bleed ticks only happen at every next second, it becomes only 3 seconds of effective bleeding. Coupled with smart use of condition clears, dodging important cooldowns, and actually using a bit of vitality, I can’t imagine you’d have much trouble anymore.

Conditions in general are not bad . . .

The problem is Confusion and Burn . . . well also torment is a pain.

Confusion stacking damage is too high, same as burning . . .

This is why people complains about perplexity and engis in general.

Nerf confusion and burn damage and all will be fix.

SoLeciTO.3490:

Conditions in general are not bad . . .

The problem is Confusion and Burn . . . well also torment is a pain.

Confusion stacking damage is too high, same as burning . . .

This is why people complains about perplexity and engis in general.

Nerf confusion and burn damage and all will be fix.

Wait what?
Confusion does too much damage? Before the WvW nerf, maybe. But after? It barely tickles you! And that’s before the tiny duration!

how fun would it be to have condition specs unable to kill anything after adding resilience like in WoW lol..

I USED to think conditions were OP too (check my post history from a few months ago). But then I got better at the game. Burst simply is more efficient and I play power builds on most of my profession. My main engi is condition only because I prefer pistol/shield and bomb kit playstyle and power builds do not work well with those.

Conditions spamming is 80% of why I don’t PVP.

The other 20% being I don’t get any enjoyment out of PVP.

isolatedchimp.2510:

Burst simply is more efficient

This. A hundred times this.

People need to actually run and compare the numbers instead of arguing based on “teh feelz”.

Condition damage pays a heavy price for being able to bypass armor. It just doesn’t scale up well outside of small group/dueling.

randomly.6395:

Yeah. Let’s nerf condition damage so we can make way for more build diversity. We won’t see condition damage anymore, but those power builds will finally get a chance to shine for a change.

If all you do is small scale roaming in WvW (literally the only place in the game where conditions are viable) why not build specifically with conditions in mind? Ignore toughness and stack vitality, actually invest in -condition duration food, and take as many condition cleanses as possible.

I play a thief in small scale wvw, most would agree they have some of the worst ways to deal with condition removal, but conditions hardly give me much trouble. I play both a condition and direct damage build.

Once you realize that conditions are not spammed anymore than direct damage is and that there are big cooldowns to look for and dodge, things become a lot easier. Don’t panic the second you see a bit of bleeding on you. Understand that you can’t remove or avoid all conditions, just as you can’t avoid all direct damage.

In WvW you can stack -60% condition duration easily. That is ~60% less damage taken throughout a fight against a condition build. An 8 second bleed becomes 3.2 seconds, but because bleed ticks only happen at every next second, it becomes only 3 seconds of effective bleeding. Coupled with smart use of condition clears, dodging important cooldowns, and actually using a bit of vitality, I can’t imagine you’d have much trouble anymore.

While you are right about being able to negate a lot of condition damage, your conditional opponent will almost always be tougher and have more health than you do.

Carighan.6758:

My GF and me play a Thief+Mesmer specifically set up to bait&trap 1v1 roamers in WvW. They think they’re getting a “fair” 1v1 fight, they’ll lose and are unable to escape at the time.

Seriously, sometimes I wish I could look through their webcam. So much rage. So many group invited and then getting told how lame it is that we “won’t fight fair”. So much whine. :P

As an often solo roamer who gets the most pleasure out of finding random 1v1 encounters that result in really fun fights, this makes me ultra sad. The complaints about “fairness” are knee-jerk emotional reactions that probably don’t get at the crux of what people actually feel: their seldom-encountered opportunity to have a fun, even fight was stripped away. One person intervening is no more or less frustrating than a zerg intervening.

Imagine you hit an amazing drive in golf, and it lands right in the middle of a fairway. You think “Yes!”, pump your fist, and feel good about finally getting a good shot off. Then, someone runs out, takes your ball, and throws it into a lake before running away. Sure, you can just drop another ball about where it landed, but there’s something stripped from the experience.

Or I’m just being dramatic, because I empathize with those feels. And a Thief/Mesmer combo, no less.

Anyway, I play Necro, so what I really have to do is just time my Plague Signet/Locust Swarm/Heal properly. If I do, most condi classes in WvW don’t have removal themselves, which is delightfully entertaining. If I don’t, odds are I’m losing. Really, it isn’t much different than timing utilities/dodges properly against a power build. I had a Thief backstab me for a cool 13.5k in one fight. He didn’t stomp me, so I res’d, fought him again, and downed him the next fight.

I still don’t really see the problem with conditions, other than people not wanting to build to go against them. I’d love to be able to not bring Plague Signet/drop OH dagger on one of my weapon sets, but I always bring Plague Signet, I always carry my OH dagger, and I often run around with Well of Power these days as a default and switching in case a different situation arises, instead of the other way around. Times change.

bigmonto.4215:

randomly.6395:

Yeah. Let’s nerf condition damage so we can make way for more build diversity. We won’t see condition damage anymore, but those power builds will finally get a chance to shine for a change.

If all you do is small scale roaming in WvW (literally the only place in the game where conditions are viable) why not build specifically with conditions in mind? Ignore toughness and stack vitality, actually invest in -condition duration food, and take as many condition cleanses as possible.

I play a thief in small scale wvw, most would agree they have some of the worst ways to deal with condition removal, but conditions hardly give me much trouble. I play both a condition and direct damage build.

Once you realize that conditions are not spammed anymore than direct damage is and that there are big cooldowns to look for and dodge, things become a lot easier. Don’t panic the second you see a bit of bleeding on you. Understand that you can’t remove or avoid all conditions, just as you can’t avoid all direct damage.

In WvW you can stack -60% condition duration easily. That is ~60% less damage taken throughout a fight against a condition build. An 8 second bleed becomes 3.2 seconds, but because bleed ticks only happen at every next second, it becomes only 3 seconds of effective bleeding. Coupled with smart use of condition clears, dodging important cooldowns, and actually using a bit of vitality, I can’t imagine you’d have much trouble anymore.

While you are right about being able to negate a lot of condition damage, your conditional opponent will almost always be tougher and have more health than you do.

Look at the gear stat arrays.

Outside of Rampagers (which is hybrid), condi builds aren’t really afforded much choice in that regard. That is not the fault of conditions, but rather gear itemization.

Edit: Which brings up another point that most don’t run full Rampagers unless they have some sort of on demand defensive mechanic like stealth and the right traits to support it….since that array is not all directly multiplicative a la Berzerkers, the tradeoff is too bad for many to stomach.

Tbh now, after sometime thinking about it, i think Anet should add more conditions removals, and some of them to weapons and traits. Make them specific condition removals kind of like Engi “Overcharged Shot/Rocket boots”, Ele’s “Drop and Roll”, things like that. Make them active for things like stacks of bleeding third chain hit on auto removes a 1 stack of bleeding. That way it’s a little bit more of a leveled playing field.

bigmonto.4215:

randomly.6395:

Yeah. Let’s nerf condition damage so we can make way for more build diversity. We won’t see condition damage anymore, but those power builds will finally get a chance to shine for a change.

If all you do is small scale roaming in WvW (literally the only place in the game where conditions are viable) why not build specifically with conditions in mind? Ignore toughness and stack vitality, actually invest in -condition duration food, and take as many condition cleanses as possible.

I play a thief in small scale wvw, most would agree they have some of the worst ways to deal with condition removal, but conditions hardly give me much trouble. I play both a condition and direct damage build.

Once you realize that conditions are not spammed anymore than direct damage is and that there are big cooldowns to look for and dodge, things become a lot easier. Don’t panic the second you see a bit of bleeding on you. Understand that you can’t remove or avoid all conditions, just as you can’t avoid all direct damage.

In WvW you can stack -60% condition duration easily. That is ~60% less damage taken throughout a fight against a condition build. An 8 second bleed becomes 3.2 seconds, but because bleed ticks only happen at every next second, it becomes only 3 seconds of effective bleeding. Coupled with smart use of condition clears, dodging important cooldowns, and actually using a bit of vitality, I can’t imagine you’d have much trouble anymore.

While you are right about being able to negate a lot of condition damage, your conditional opponent will almost always be tougher and have more health than you do.

When a class deals its damage over time in ticks, they are generally a bit tankier in order to actually survive to see their damage do anything before they die.

What if you took two builds and compared them side by side. They both have the same health, armor, and damage. One deals its damage upfront and instantly, the other deals its damage over ten seconds. Which do you feel would be better?

The trade off is that you give up a bit of offensive power for your defense. Otherwise builds that deal their damage over time would almost always be inferior.

bigmonto.4215:

While you are right about being able to negate a lot of condition damage, your conditional opponent will almost always be tougher and have more health than you do.

This is the amusing thing though.. We all know ignoring toughness is one of condition damages biggest strengths, but it can also become a weakness by the fact that a full berserker player is not nessesarily squishy.

You can go 100% full offensive stats vs a condi bunker with no side effects from poor defence, as long as you pack enough condi removal, and suddenly it means nothing that they are tankier than you.

In short – full zerker is harder to beat than full soliders on a condition build. Stop trying to “out tank” builds which are by design tanky and good vs other tanks because all you are doing is playing their game.

Cufufalating.8479:

bigmonto.4215:

While you are right about being able to negate a lot of condition damage, your conditional opponent will almost always be tougher and have more health than you do.

This is the amusing thing though.. We all know ignoring toughness is one of condition damages biggest strengths, but it can also become a weakness by the fact that a full berserker player is not nessesarily squishy.

You can go 100% full offensive stats vs a condi bunker with no side effects from poor defence, as long as you pack enough condi removal, and suddenly it means nothing that they are tankier than you.

In short – full zerker is harder to beat than full soliders on a condition build. Stop trying to “out tank” builds which are by design tanky and good vs other tanks because all you are doing is playing their game.

this +1. This is the true counter to condition damage go zerker since the condition user loses damage/second (on an average point of view) through the shorter fight.

Cufufalating.8479:

This is the amusing thing though.. We all know ignoring toughness is one of condition damages biggest strengths, but it can also become a weakness by the fact that a full berserker player is not nessesarily squishy.

You can go 100% full offensive stats vs a condi bunker with no side effects from poor defence, as long as you pack enough condi removal, and suddenly it means nothing that they are tankier than you.

In short – full zerker is harder to beat than full soliders on a condition build. Stop trying to “out tank” builds which are by design tanky and good vs other tanks because all you are doing is playing their game.

Another +1 when you run a condition build your biggest threat isn’t the person running soldiers or clerics it’s the guy in full zerk no matter the class or build.

Condi builds threat:

A: Glassy Med guards, backstab thieves, glass mesmers, pew pew long bow rangers, warriors, killshot warriors, life blast necros, S/D eles.

The non threats:

B: It’s not the immortal guardian, bunker ele, retal mesmer, regen ranger, healing bomb engi, shout healz/banner commader build sword/warhorn warrior.

C: Is the build that want’s to be A, thinks it has A damage but built in some of B which means there is no way it can be A.

C: is where 9/10 popular roaming builds fall into you can’t build to beat everything. Usually builds called “Tanky DPS”

Tim.6450:

Cufufalating.8479:

bigmonto.4215:

While you are right about being able to negate a lot of condition damage, your conditional opponent will almost always be tougher and have more health than you do.

This is the amusing thing though.. We all know ignoring toughness is one of condition damages biggest strengths, but it can also become a weakness by the fact that a full berserker player is not nessesarily squishy.

You can go 100% full offensive stats vs a condi bunker with no side effects from poor defence, as long as you pack enough condi removal, and suddenly it means nothing that they are tankier than you.

In short – full zerker is harder to beat than full soliders on a condition build. Stop trying to “out tank” builds which are by design tanky and good vs other tanks because all you are doing is playing their game.

this +1. This is the true counter to condition damage go zerker since the condition user loses damage/second (on an average point of view) through the shorter fight.

Wait what? I doubt it. You should try that next time. Be a full zerker against a PU Mesmer, or Necro or Engineer or anyone, they will just put condition on you and kite you around until you die.

Hack my conditional warrior can dish out around 4k worth of damage per sec on conditions alone. Not only that I have around 25k health with 3.2k armor + around 6k on-demand healing every 20s plus >400 healing per sec. Even if I can’t face tank you, I still kite you around with a LB. You have to dodge everything perfectly to win the battle.

bigmonto.4215:

Tim.6450:

Cufufalating.8479:

bigmonto.4215:

While you are right about being able to negate a lot of condition damage, your conditional opponent will almost always be tougher and have more health than you do.

This is the amusing thing though.. We all know ignoring toughness is one of condition damages biggest strengths, but it can also become a weakness by the fact that a full berserker player is not nessesarily squishy.

You can go 100% full offensive stats vs a condi bunker with no side effects from poor defence, as long as you pack enough condi removal, and suddenly it means nothing that they are tankier than you.

In short – full zerker is harder to beat than full soliders on a condition build. Stop trying to “out tank” builds which are by design tanky and good vs other tanks because all you are doing is playing their game.

this +1. This is the true counter to condition damage go zerker since the condition user loses damage/second (on an average point of view) through the shorter fight.

Wait what? I doubt it. You should try that next time. Be a full zerker against a PU Mesmer, or Necro or Engineer or anyone, they will just put condition on you and kite you around until you die.

Works quite well when you avoid the snares, then kill them before they load you up with bleeds.

Let’s look at it from the condition-user’s point of view. Let’s say there are two opponents: a Knight’s gear Guardian and a Zerker/Assassin thief. Which is the easier kill?

It’s a trick question. Both opponents die equally fast to a condition build. However, the Thief has the very real capability of outright killing the condition build due to massively increased damage over the Guardian.

And 4k DPS on a condition warrior? I have to call bull. They literally cannot get that high. Necros and engies can reach that, but only if there are multiple opponents. Warriors lack the AoE application of anything but burning.

Once again, try that. My guess it you never try it.

They don’t call it a conditional bunker for nothing. Both a Knight’s gear Guardian and a Zerker/Assassin thief has no chance killing a good conditional bunker period.

Condition spamming is just as fun as the “perma stealth” thief or CC warrior fun that plague WvW and sPvP. Quite frankly i like spamming conditions on incapable players but i also like fighting condition classes because when i win i know the other player is QQing like crazy

There are many classes with annoying mechanics now.. even full celestial DD eles do insane damage aswell as crazy condi damage due to being able to keep 20-25 stacks of might in the course of a fight. All that needs to be done is find a way to beat them.

bigmonto.4215:

Once again, try that. My guess it you never try it.

They don’t call it a conditional bunker for nothing. Both a Knight’s gear Guardian and a Zerker/Assassin thief has no chance killing a good conditional bunker period.

I do it quite frequently. It’s not difficult. Easier now that Pin Down has an actual cast time and animation (yes, it was the only really problematic one).

bigmonto.4215:

Tim.6450:

Cufufalating.8479:

bigmonto.4215:

While you are right about being able to negate a lot of condition damage, your conditional opponent will almost always be tougher and have more health than you do.

This is the amusing thing though.. We all know ignoring toughness is one of condition damages biggest strengths, but it can also become a weakness by the fact that a full berserker player is not nessesarily squishy.

You can go 100% full offensive stats vs a condi bunker with no side effects from poor defence, as long as you pack enough condi removal, and suddenly it means nothing that they are tankier than you.

In short – full zerker is harder to beat than full soliders on a condition build. Stop trying to “out tank” builds which are by design tanky and good vs other tanks because all you are doing is playing their game.

this +1. This is the true counter to condition damage go zerker since the condition user loses damage/second (on an average point of view) through the shorter fight.

Wait what? I doubt it. You should try that next time. Be a full zerker against a PU Mesmer, or Necro or Engineer or anyone, they will just put condition on you and kite you around until you die.

Hack my conditional warrior can dish out around 4k worth of damage per sec on conditions alone. Not only that I have around 25k health with 3.2k armor + around 6k on-demand healing every 20s plus >400 healing per sec. Even if I can’t face tank you, I still kite you around with a LB. You have to dodge everything perfectly to win the battle.

The whole kiting thing works if you’re to bloodlusted to see that you are being kited.

Look at your example and this is what kills me about this discussion Power builds are looked at individually for each type of build but condi builds are all in the same boat. If you think a PU mesmer, Necro, and Engineer play and use conditions remotely the same then the problem is that you don’t know those classes, their mechanics and how each condition build works like it’s strength and weakness.

When someone makes a QQ thread bout thieves being OP I bet they don’t say the thief has a greatsword, dogged march, and cleansing ire. We should nerf thieves healing signet and adrenal health.

Warrior needs to be nerfed because of it’s backstab, insane regen in stealth, and it’s clones. See how silly it looks if we did that with direct damage QQ.

A PU mesmer is weak to conditions, a Engineer condi build is weak to conditions, a Necromancer is much much more resistant to conditions then either of the them and will eat the other 2 alive. With just the right weapons a POWER Necro is just as strong as the Condi necro because you know a Necro is different then a Engineer and Mesmer before you even get to the actual build.

DonEllz.6312:

Condition spamming is just as fun as the “perma stealth” thief or CC warrior fun that plague WvW and sPvP. Quite frankly i like spamming conditions on incapable players but i also like fighting condition classes because when i win i know the other player is QQing like crazy

There are many classes with annoying mechanics now.. even full celestial DD eles do insane damage aswell as crazy condi damage due to being able to keep 20-25 stacks of might in the course of a fight. All that needs to be done is find a way to beat them.

If you describe your play style as “spamming” in any fashion, then I am quit sure it is as you say, that you beat incapable players.

bigmonto.4215:

Wait what? I doubt it. You should try that next time. Be a full zerker against a PU Mesmer, or Necro or Engineer or anyone, they will just put condition on you and kite you around until you die.

Hack my conditional warrior can dish out around 4k worth of damage per sec on conditions alone. Not only that I have around 25k health with 3.2k armor + around 6k on-demand healing every 20s plus >400 healing per sec. Even if I can’t face tank you, I still kite you around with a LB. You have to dodge everything perfectly to win the battle.

Your PvP arena or mine? I accept your challenge. When do you wish to do this?

bigmonto.4215:

Once again, try that. My guess it you never try it.

They don’t call it a conditional bunker for nothing. Both a Knight’s gear Guardian and a Zerker/Assassin thief has no chance killing a good conditional bunker period.

Maybe you have no chance, period. Very many of the rest of us appear to be quit capable at it. I know I am, and I see other her pointing out they do.

Hmm, I wonder what the difference is from others and yourself is?

Haven’t many of us already posted videos in previous threads, of us and others, doing what he is claiming we should go try?

Indeed conditions are breaking the fun , but it have to do with global balance , this post talks about it , TY .

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/SPVP-Balance-Competitive-GW2/first#post3995121

William Bradley Knight.2609:

Form.8741:

Either you preach to the choir (supporters who already know and agree) or you preach to the devil (who will never agree). Debate and forum threads are basically useless for all except venting, no matter how obviously correct you might be. People either disagree or agree before they even start reading, and no forum post has EVER changed someone’s mind if they had a strong opinion to begin with.

Have fun condi wars 2 players, that’s all you’ll have as long as you keep saying condi is fine. That’s all anyone is playing in pvp/wvw now, a bunch of condi stackers and a constant counterattempt to try to purge all the condis constantly placed. It’s no small wonder engi is king of the hill with necro not far behind.

If the meta is full of condition spam and that causes problems for you, then why not stack more vitality and condition removal? Aside from dodge/block/avoid of nasty condition-applying skills, aren’t those things counters to condition spam? If you are frequently going 1v1 against condition spammers, won’t using those things cause you to beat them more often?

Right then, so according to you the way to beat condition builds is to stack more vitality and more condition removal…it is now MANDATORY to use condition removal skills in every single build you use for pvp. And what happens when you stack more vitality and use condition removal utils/traits…?? Your damage goes down, so how are you going to break the tank of that condition player who only has to use ONE stat to give him high sustained damage and then he uses 2 defensive stats?

How are you supposed to break his bunker when you are FORCED yourself to spec just to stay alive? And then there is the matter of condition removal, most condi players can stack conditions faster than you can clear them or your char doesn’t have a lot of access to condi removal, so what are you supposed to do then?

Loco.4561:

it is now MANDATORY to use condition removal skills in every single build you use for pvp.

Hey, here’s something just as crazy: If you have no toughness, a zerker build kills you before you realized you’re being attacked!

Crazy how you lose if you lack the corresponding defence to an attack. Right?

Loco.4561:

Right then, so according to you the way to beat condition builds is to stack more vitality and more condition removal…it is now MANDATORY to use condition removal skills in every single build you use for pvp. And what happens when you stack more vitality and use condition removal utils/traits…?? Your damage goes down, so how are you going to break the tank of that condition player who only has to use ONE stat to give him high sustained damage and then he uses 2 defensive stats?

How are you supposed to break his bunker when you are FORCED yourself to spec just to stay alive? And then there is the matter of condition removal, most condi players can stack conditions faster than you can clear them or your char doesn’t have a lot of access to condi removal, so what are you supposed to do then?

Or you just go zerker and instakill the person with a proper burst build… and dont say its impossible, even if that person has dire (so wvwvw) you can 100-0 people with around 18k hp and 2.6k armor with eles thieves mesmers and guardians. Or you can go condi yourself and give him a taste of their own medicine.

Fun fact: did you know that the “optimal” pve condi setup requires not only being able to reliably get all condis off and keep em on over 10s (which is impossible unless you get 2+ professions working together) and his zerker counterpart hitting a enemy with 3.8k armor (average being from 2.3 to 2.6) for one to be bale to compare dps~

Also lets go alongside the counter list:

Universal counters – block, dodge, invul, evade moves, blind, ripping/corrupting might, ccing the source of damage before it can get applied.

List of counters to condi damage – melandru runes, hoelbrak runes, rune of lyssa, condition removal which every profession should have just like they wear armor pieces.

(remember that conditions get boosted by only cond duration and cond damage)

List of counters to direct damage – armor, protection, weakness

(direct attacks on the other hand benefit from % bonus damage multipliers, critting, vuln on the enemy, crit damage and ofc normal power itself)

In a reasonable world why are you complaning about something so very basic as attacks that are just delayed over time giving you not only easy time to avoid them initially but also mitigate most of their damage with a button press.

Power is runing my fun. It does more damage than conditions and my poor little conds can be cleansed away and they get their normal healing/dodges on top of that. Stacks of bleed/torment & long duration pois/burn gone in an instant. Can’t do anything close to that against power.

Cond duration doesn’t add damage to all of my skills, however adding more power/pre/crit dmg does to all power skills. Three ways to increase damage regardless of any other factors (save hitting 100% crit chance)? What is this I don’t even…

Take a look at high ranking PvP comps. It’s very power based. Cond builds are in the (vast) minority and you’ll typically see at most 1 if not none on a team.

But yea, people complain about conds because they people don’t want to have to even think about bringing any removal so you can make your power builds even stronger.

Loco.4561:

And then there is the matter of condition removal, most condi players can stack conditions faster than you can clear them or your char doesn’t have a lot of access to condi removal, so what are you supposed to do then?

That’s the point. You aren’t supposed to be able to clear every condition all the time. Otherwise you’d be able to shrug off any condition user. The point is smart use of those condition removals.

I swear, people on these boards think they should be able to ignore any condition user with cleanses alone.

frans.8092:

If you manage to complain about the torment from P/D you really need to just add a little . Torment is a pretty weak condition and Shadow Strike’s 2 stacks of 5 seconds are comparable to 3 bleed stacks of 5 seconds, while you move.

And yes, Confusion and, to a lesser extent, Torment are ‘fun’ conditions in the sense that they give you a choice.

You should see me on my thief… Torment is quite fun when you have enough torment on to do 1k+ a tick on top of the poison, multiple bleeds, and Confusion that does 2k a tick…It’s quite fun when I can down a person in like 2 seconds with a condi build. Even though condi is fun for me I really would like busting out the Daggers again for some more backstab fun

Loco.4561:

Right then, so according to you the way to beat condition builds is to stack more vitality and more condition removal…it is now MANDATORY to use condition removal skills in every single build you use for pvp. And what happens when you stack more vitality and use condition removal utils/traits…?? Your damage goes down, so how are you going to break the tank of that condition player who only has to use ONE stat to give him high sustained damage and then he uses 2 defensive stats?

And? You have no right to complain about something that you do not take full initiative toward countering. So what if your damage goes down? If you building to counter another build, which you are, then you are neutering it fully.

As well, you remark about one stat, is inaccurate. Before you can get on the path of victory, you must first get yourself out of denial my friend.

Loco.4561:

How are you supposed to break his bunker when you are FORCED yourself to spec just to stay alive? And then there is the matter of condition removal, most condi players can stack conditions faster than you can clear them or your char doesn’t have a lot of access to condi removal, so what are you supposed to do then?

You should grab a dictionary and look up the word “forced” some time.

What are you supposed to do? Well for starters, I suggest less complaining and try more builds to counter what you complain about. For all we know, your play style may be a problem, your builds could be lacking, or your not even using the dodge button. There has to be some root problem, as many of us have over come this meta easily. Perhaps you could link your build that your having trouble with and we can offer you some guidance.

A good start would be to listen to this guys advice

randomly.6395:

That’s the point. You aren’t supposed to be able to clear every condition all the time. Otherwise you’d be able to shrug off any condition user. The point is smart use of those condition removals.

I swear, people on these boards think they should be able to ignore any condition user with cleanses alone.

Anhomedog.7968:

You should see me on my thief… Torment is quite fun when you have enough torment on to do 1k+ a tick on top of the poison, multiple bleeds, and Confusion that does 2k a tick…It’s quite fun when I can down a person in like 2 seconds with a condi build. Even though condi is fun for me I really would like busting out the Daggers again for some more backstab fun

I doubt you can get 10-12 stacks of Confusion and Torment on a player in the first couple of seconds of the fight. I doubt you can even get that many stack on them at all, with a Thief.

Anhomedog.7968:

You should see me on my thief… Torment is quite fun when you have enough torment on to do 1k+ a tick on top of the poison, multiple bleeds, and Confusion that does 2k a tick…It’s quite fun when I can down a person in like 2 seconds with a condi build.

Uh huh. So let’s look at this a bit further. For some reason you:

• Got 10 Stacks of Torment. AFAIK only Thieves can apply this much, and only with partymembers around them.
• Got ~15 stacks of Confusion on top of that. I don’t even know. Maybe if you’re fighting en entire party solo, and one of them is a Perplexity-Engineer?
• Only have ~7,5k HP.

Seriously, couldn’t you at least invent an “example” which isn’t that blatantly thought up? Hrm?

Carighan.6758:

Anhomedog.7968:

You should see me on my thief… Torment is quite fun when you have enough torment on to do 1k+ a tick on top of the poison, multiple bleeds, and Confusion that does 2k a tick…It’s quite fun when I can down a person in like 2 seconds with a condi build.

Uh huh. So let’s look at this a bit further. For some reason you:

• Got 10 Stacks of Torment. AFAIK only Thieves can apply this much, and only with partymembers around them.
• Got ~15 stacks of Confusion on top of that. I don’t even know. Maybe if you’re fighting en entire party solo, and one of them is a Perplexity-Engineer?
• Only have ~7,5k HP.

Seriously, couldn’t you at least invent an “example” which isn’t that blatantly thought up? Hrm?

I dont get what you actually mean, but a thief can keep 10 stacks of torment and confusion on a person with perplexity runes on p/d (bleeds torment and gap creation) s/p (initial gap closer with daze spam and reliable condi removal/anti cc) combo and sigil of torment procs…

Andele.1306:

I dont get what you actually mean, but a thief can keep 10 stacks of torment and confusion on a person with perplexity runes on p/d (bleeds torment and gap creation) s/p (initial gap closer with daze spam and reliable condi removal/anti cc) combo and sigil of torment procs…

A best case scenario against someone who doesn’t know anything about the game at all. 10 stacks of torment really? Anyone that knows anything about a P/D thief knows the condi spike is at the beginning and the thief is moving toward you to A: cloak and dagger or B: Shadow Strike.

It isn’t easy to put 10 stacks of torment on someone that knows what they are doing. 10/15 – stacks of confusion? Who are you people fighting seriously. A condi S/P thief does that even work on anybody that knows to not attack the thief during evade frames and spamming pistol whip?

That’s what I meant, too. Absolute best case versus opponent who doesn’t know the game. Not exactly a useful evidence for any kind of balancing discussion, is it now?

Direct Damage
Advantages: Quick burst damage takes your foe down fast. Your damage is not shared with other players on your team.
Disadvantages: Is reduced by armour and toughness.

Condition Damage
Advantages: Ignores armour and toughness.
Disadvantages: Easy to clear via combo fields when fighting groups. Damage is shared with other condition damage team mates (hard cap on bleed stacks). Slower to ally full damage potential.

Both Damage Types
Advantages: Many can be spammed (both direct and condition damage).
Disadvantages: There are defenses to counter them.

So I was just testing to run a condi build d/d Ele in spvp (not that good of a build since I don’t usually run such but w/e) and after taking on a Guardian and surviving, then fresh air Ele – the Guardian said “kittening nerf your silly class”

I didn’t feel all that strong since it was difficult to keep up conditions but yeah…

EDIT: This is a first crude effort and a lot of things should be changed imo, but here is the build in case someone is curious at all http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fFAQJAoYhMM6c24wwBdEBHAGpnQoAw4TQOoFWcLkFA-TJRHwAG3fIwJAAZZAAPAAA

To break it down even further you ran D/D which you should survive against a guardian anyway. I didn’t seem to notice you saying you killed the guardian with that build, and you took on a S/D fresh air build with D/D.

I don’t understand your test or this example because the same results would have happened if you ran D/D direct.

oZii.2864:

To break it down even further you ran D/D which you should survive against a guardian anyway. I didn’t seem to notice you saying you killed the guardian with that build, and you took on a S/D fresh air build with D/D.

I don’t understand your test or this example because the same results would have happened if you ran D/D direct.

Killed both at once more or less (ele jumped in midfight).

My point wasn’t how strong or weak conditions were, as you are right on with your statement.

People just probably don’t perceive conditions as fun though on the receiving end. (I am in NO WAY experienced fighting AS a condition build or class, so I just adjusted how I played for this build to work).

The guardian wasn’t full bunker btw.

Ofc they don’t. They’re a type of can’t-win scenario. Psychologically they’re an interesting trap, the moment you suffer the conditions you’re not in a sense of danger yet. But actually, you’re already dead. By the time you lose your health it’s a bit late.

With direct damage, the moment you suffer that first hit and the first 25% of your HP is gone, your adrenaline spikes and you’re fully focused. With conditions, you’re stacked to lose 80%++ and you still haven’t reacted in the slightest. By the time you do, it’s already lost.

^ Main reason peole die to condis. The oh kitten! factor is much slower with condis. People just do not know how to react. When you get backstabbed for 7k damage you best believe your going to be dodging and spamming your heal. When my condi ranger does a full rotation and your health does not even move but you have a bunch of stacks of condis on you the opponent does not react.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Form.8741:

Try avoiding all of the massive condition spam weapon skills and condispam utilities(think engineer, necro, etc.) and condispam runes and traits (think Mesmer, thief, engineer, etc.) and passives (guardian etc.).

Here’s a question: why are you bothering? Why are you trying to avoid auto-attacks (because those are the only “spam” abilities that actually exist)? They aren’t the heavy-hitting skills. Against a direct damage build, do you try to avoid the autos? No? Then why do you blow your dodges/blocks/cleanses on condition build autos that hurt even less? Other skills have reasons to avoid them. Auto-attacks are always an endless supply, regardless of your opponent’s build.

And if you’re seriously scared of a Guardian’s Virtue of Justice passive, you may want to just leave PvP altogether. It’s incidental damage at best, since condition damage guardians suck, so that burning never really hurts (oh no, his 5th attack did an additional 328 damage to me, I am so screwed…).

Srs? – My condi guardian burns tick for 1,100 and wrecks all 1v1.. think outside the box and you can smash ppl with the right condi guard build… in 1vX we suck tho haha!

Okay, so you tick for 1.1k for one second every five hits. You have a few other sources of burning, but I hit that high with just 7 bleeds on a condition build with any other class. Or 1-1/2 times that on a Knight’s build auto attack.

Translation: if you’re “owning” people with a condition guardian, it’s because they really suck.