Guild Wars 2

So there has been a lot of complaints about condition builds in this game, that they are under powered and not viable in pvp. Unfortunately i have to agree, although I love playing my condy necro and stacking bleeds like crazy, my zerker necro can beat it every time. Removing conditions is just so easy to do, one simple click can remove a hard worked for 25 stack of bleed off your char. In fact, if you are anything above a semi decent player you should rarely be affected heavily by conditions (not meant to be derogatory).

So, now to my suggestion, why not have something akin to a critical hit. You would have a percentage of chance to land a critical condition that would be more powerful in some way, preferably, it would be a condition that could not be removed but here are some other things i thought of below.

Critical condition
-More powerful, does 100-200% more damage.

-Impossible to remove for 2-6 seconds.

-Doubles stack, if one stack of bleed applied goes critical it becomes 2 stacks.

-double duration, the critical condition goes double, or a certain percentage, longer.

-Increased speed, the condition ticks faster.

These are just a few of my ideas. Agree? disagree? Also please let me know a few of your suggestions on what a Critical Strike condition could do.

Any other ideas on how we could make conditions more viable?

CodenameZeus.3945:

are you a troll?

excuse me?

These are just a few of my ideas. Agree? disagree? Also please let me know a few of your suggestions on what a Critical Strike condition could do.
Any other ideas on how we could make conditions more viable?

asked for your oppinion, if you dont care, then dont read it.

How about no.

Zacchary.6183:

How about no.

Any other ideas on how we could make conditions more viable?

Nope. Not until combat is balanced as a whole.

Zacchary.6183:

Nope. Not until combat is balanced as a whole.

Blancing conditions is part of balancing combat……

Aleglast.6027:

So there has been a lot of complaints about condition builds in this game, that they are under powered and not viable in pvp. Unfortunately i have to agree

You are making an assumption and then passing it off as true with no other arguments than “there has been a lot of complaints”. Maybe you should go play PvP before you say these things.

That is one small aspect. I am talking about ALL of them. Your idea needs to wait until combat is straightened out.

Suns Dusk.7201:

Aleglast.6027:

So there has been a lot of complaints about condition builds in this game, that they are under powered and not viable in pvp. Unfortunately i have to agree

You are making an assumption and then passing it off as true with no other arguments than “there has been a lot of complaints”. Maybe you should go play PvP before you say these things.

why would i say there has been alot of complaints if there was not complaints…….in the past two days, which ive been playing nothing but pvp btw, i heard over 18 people complain about them. Also, in the past year, the percentage of zerkers i have faced in pvp is about 80%, 15% of the time its tanks/wtfbuilds, and maybe 5% of the time its condy builds, and every condy builder i faced, i beat.

edit: notice, ive been playing pvp for a year.

Anyways I dont want this to be an argument, if you have a positive oppinion to share, share it. if you have a negative oppinion to share, dont. just say, I disagree.

Allow damaging condis to crit per tick, with damage adjusted for ferocity (@35% crit & baseline ferocity -150% dmg- an 8 second bleed ticking for 800 damage has a 35% chance every second to tick for 150 damage as opposed to 100).

Lower overall condition damage ~10% to compensate.

I am with you on this OP. Conditions EVERYWHERE need to be reworked though, not just PvP. I also play a condi necro from time to time in PvP, and have found it to be rather useful. Of course those running heavy cleanses can easily blow off the conditions, it does take a specific anti condition build to do so, and usually they are sacrificing somewhere to do it. But a critical condition idea is a start to working through all the major issues with conditions everywhere. But doing something like this just may make condi builds completely OP, and if enough people start QQing about that, it will get a nerf, making them even worse.

Silver Sea.5314:

CodenameZeus.3945:

are you a troll?

No need to be rude

It’s a legit question.

The OP already insisted on another thread today that he KNOWS that there will be a new race made available when LS S2 starts on July 1, so pretty much all of his posts are now subject to extra scrutiny.

Aleglast.6027:

Anyways I dont want this to be an argument, if you have a positive oppinion to share, share it. if you have a negative oppinion to share, dont. just say, I disagree.

Lol now this is ridiculous. If you can’t take criticism of your ideas, then you should keep them to yourself.

Oh, I disagree. I think condis do need a reworking, mainly being able to have more than 25 stacks, but your solution strikes me as a poor one.

Crit per stack per tick, or for the whole bundle together, per tick, or per application. And what do you do with on-crit procs, just about any % chance per tick becomes almost a certainty with this, at least with per-tick crits – and many auto-attacks get additional crit-chance because they apply a condition.

Not possible to remove critical conditions? That is very, very strong, it could change The Zerg, even if it was just 1 second, you’d just have to love poison fields with 90% crit chance, or glue bombs, caltrops … oh man, that would end zerg-stacking.

It certainly would make conditions more viable in PvE. Conditions are way too underpowered in PvE.

Another side to this issue is that the limitation on the current Condition Damage situation is likely due to the limited resources of available computing per zone. The current method used to represent Condition Damage requires non-trivial computing resources to keep up with and those resources are needed for EVERY condition stack that exists on every player and AI enemy in the entire zone. Thus, they have to limit each condition stack so as not to consume the limited computing resources available.

If there was some way to allow for some BONUS direct damage to be added to a maxed condition damage stack (with minimal additional computing needed) when additional conditions would normally be applied, that might help, but it would need to be carefully balanced so that it does NOT become OP or abusable by the general player base.

Currently, Condition Damage is quite powerful if speced correctly and used by one or maybe 2 teammates (so I’m not quite sure how the OP thinks Condition Damage is not good in PvP, one of the few places in the game it can be used effectively). Once you get it into a situation with multiple players applying the same conditions to the same foe, it rapidly looses all effectiveness.

Conditions can’t critically hit for technical reasons. The servers already have to constantly send data packets back and forth per condition to track the current damage and remaining time on each one; they are capped at 25 to prevent server overload, not for balance reasons. And adding another packet which constantly goes back and forth checking if a randomly generated number has pinged would exacerbate the problem.

Really the only way to fix conditions is with a whole new system.

calyx.9086:

Silver Sea.5314:

CodenameZeus.3945:

are you a troll?

No need to be rude

It’s a legit question.

The OP already insisted on another thread today that he KNOWS that there will be a new race made available when LS S2 starts on July 1, so pretty much all of his posts are now subject to extra scrutiny.

Aleglast.6027:

Anyways I dont want this to be an argument, if you have a positive oppinion to share, share it. if you have a negative oppinion to share, dont. just say, I disagree.

Lol now this is ridiculous. If you can’t take criticism of your ideas, then you should keep them to yourself.

Oh, I disagree. I think condis do need a reworking, mainly being able to have more than 25 stacks, but your solution strikes me as a poor one.

First, I do beleive there will be another race on july first, and i wasnt trolling. Second, he didnt even know that so he would have no reason at all to scrutinize my post. Third, I said that you can feel free to disagree with me, but it does not need to be negative, if someone believed that disagreeing with someone needs to always be negative that person would not have many friends. For example, you said, “your solution strikes me as a poor one”, this is derogatory, you could have said, your solution does not seem viable, your solution in my opinion would never work, your solution presents problems, your solution, im afraid, could never work (reasons why it wouldnt). Of course you are not required to do this, but it can go a long way in keeping people happy and earning the respect of others. I am also not saying that i do this all the time, i am not perfect, and i will never make all of the right choices and have everyone elses best interests in mind. But i try my best to.

I never once said I am not open to criticism, if fact, I thrive on criticism, hence why i said to disagree or agree with me, and to present other ways to make condys viable. however I am not open to negative or insulting criticism. Criticism is designed to make things better, to analyze the mistakes and eliminate them, to build up ideas or spawn new ones from the original concept, not to tear down people and their opinions. Unless of course their opinions are directly mean and designed to hurt people, but i believe my opinion was not at all this. If so, I am sorry for offending you.

Brother Grimm.5176:

Another side to this issue is that the limitation on the current Condition Damage situation is likely due to the limited resources of available computing per zone. The current method used to represent Condition Damage requires non-trivial computing resources to keep up with and those resources are needed for EVERY condition stack that exists on every player and AI enemy in the entire zone. Thus, they have to limit each condition stack so as not to consume the limited computing resources available.

If there was some way to allow for some BONUS direct damage to be added to a maxed condition damage stack (with minimal additional computing needed) when additional conditions would normally be applied, that might help, but it would need to be carefully balanced so that it does NOT become OP or abusable by the general player base.

Currently, Condition Damage is quite powerful if speced correctly and used by one or maybe 2 teammates (so I’m not quite sure how the OP thinks Condition Damage is not good in PvP, one of the few places in the game it can be used effectively). Once you get it into a situation with multiple players applying the same conditions to the same foe, it rapidly looses all effectiveness.

I had a nice long reply for you but my comp decided to be dumb and lost it so for now ill just say thanks for the reply, some nice stuff to chew on.

On the whole I always wonder why conditions couldn’t crit in GW2 as most games allow conditions to crit typically having other conditions or effects on the crits. As of now I guessing it’s a technical limitation.

But if condition could crit, it could open up some very interesting game play. Could be a reason for Condition damage, Precision, Ferocity stat combo, add some of the missing condition, hex effect from GW1. You could also maybe apply crits to boons to opening up similar options. Yes this would add more complexity to condition/boon game play but I feel the system is just a little to simple as it is now. But I also don’t want all the enchantments, conditions & hexs from GW1 as I believe there was to many and some of then performed very similar functions.

@OP

Agree that condi is weak for some parts of the game. However, they are very very strong in other parts (like small scale WvW and PvP). If even one of the ideas in the OP post gets implemented, it would completely push all builds that are not condi out of the meta for those areas (which is already happening… especially in small scale WvW).

In short… your ideas make condi builds overwhelmingly strong in the areas where they are currently strong and does not help in the slightest in areas where they are lacking (PVE).

Aleglast.6027:

For example, you said, “your solution strikes me as a poor one”, this is derogatory, you could have said, your solution does not seem viable, your solution in my opinion would never work, your solution presents problems, your solution, im afraid, could never work (reasons why it wouldnt).

“your solution strikes me as a poor one” sounds to me like hes saying that your ideas are a bad fit for the current problem…

on the other hand, “your solution in my opinion would never work” sounds like someone politely saying “I think you’re dumb” :x there are cultural implications to how people phrase things and we are a pretty international community… maybe you’re reading too deeply into what people are saying?

with that said, your solution strikes me as a poor one :P

Emi

Brother Grimm.5176:

Another side to this issue is that the limitation on the current Condition Damage situation is likely due to the limited resources of available computing per zone. The current method used to represent Condition Damage requires non-trivial computing resources to keep up with and those resources are needed for EVERY condition stack that exists on every player and AI enemy in the entire zone. Thus, they have to limit each condition stack so as not to consume the limited computing resources available.

Bookkeeping the condition stacks on the source is no more resource intensive then bookkeeping on the target. The first does not limit the number of stacks on a target, but limits the amount of stack by source, the second (probably the current) limits stack on the target, not on the source. Bookkeeping on the source would be preferable as it does not limit the conditions at for bosses absurdly low levels, while keeping it in check for small scale pvp. What i imagine might be a resource-problem with bookkeeping on the source is removing conditions.

Emi.4152:

@OP

Agree that condi is weak for some parts of the game. However, they are very very strong in other parts (like small scale WvW and PvP). If even one of the ideas in the OP post gets implemented, it would completely push all builds that are not condi out of the meta for those areas (which is already happening… especially in small scale WvW).

In short… your ideas make condi builds overwhelmingly strong in the areas where they are currently strong and does not help in the slightest in areas where they are lacking (PVE).

Aleglast.6027:

For example, you said, “your solution strikes me as a poor one”, this is derogatory, you could have said, your solution does not seem viable, your solution in my opinion would never work, your solution presents problems, your solution, im afraid, could never work (reasons why it wouldnt).

“your solution strikes me as a poor one” sounds to me like hes saying that your ideas are a bad fit for the current problem…

on the other hand, “your solution in my opinion would never work” sounds like someone politely saying “I think you’re dumb” :x there are cultural implications to how people phrase things and we are a pretty international community… maybe you’re reading too deeply into what people are saying?

with that said, your solution strikes me as a poor one :P

Emi

If you open up your eyes and read his whole post i believe you will find that he was not making the slightest effort to be polite. “Your solution in my opinion would never work” does not imply anything about the creator of the idea, only the idea itself, it does not hurt or damage the person saying it, it just says that the idea wouldnt work, try a new one. I use that phrase when i dont agree with someone and i have never once received a negative response.

Aleglast.6027:

First, I do beleive there will be another race on july first,

Can’t wait to see that dream derailed XD

Conditions that crit would be a great idea. This could make condition more viable, reduce the current problems with conditions and make them more interesting.

Allow conditions to crit just like normal attacks, but instead of double damage (much more data to keep track of) it could just add 2 stacks instead of 1 (same effect but much less computing power required).

In order to compensate you would need to reduce the damage formulas for conditions to keep overall dps the same.

The effects would be two fold:

1. Makes condition builds more interesting and brings them up to the correct DPS levels in PvE.

2. Reduces the problem of tanky condition users in PvP and WvW. Right now you can get 90% of the dps and 100% of the tankyness of a power/tank build by using dire gear since conditions currently only depend on condition damage stat to calculate damage. By reducing the base damage of conditions and making crits matter you make reduce tanky condition users damage while increasing the damage of “glass cannon” condition users.

This would bring balance to conditions in WvW, increase their viability in PvE, and change nothing in PvP.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Conditions that crit would be a great idea. This could make condition more viable, reduce the current problems with conditions and make them more interesting.

Allow conditions to crit just like normal attacks, but instead of double damage (much more data to keep track of) it could just add 2 stacks instead of 1 (same effect but much less computing power required).

In order to compensate you would need to reduce the damage formulas for conditions to keep overall dps the same.

The effects would be two fold:

1. Makes condition builds more interesting and brings them up to the correct DPS levels in PvE.

2. Reduces the problem of tanky condition users in PvP and WvW. Right now you can get 90% of the dps and 100% of the tankyness of a power/tank build by using dire gear since conditions currently only depend on condition damage stat to calculate damage. By reducing the base damage of conditions and making crits matter you make reduce tanky condition users damage while increasing the damage of “glass cannon” condition users.

This would bring balance to conditions in WvW, increase their viability in PvE, and change nothing in PvP.

You my friend, get a gold star. You just made sense out of everything i was thinking.

Due to the current meta conditions are getting a lot of hate and people call for nerfs. If condition damage gets nerfed all the whiners will be satisfied. The whining wont stop but increase. Conditions themselves are rather weak in my opinion and even deserve a buff. Ever tried to run a dungeon with a condition build? Got kicked? Then you know what i mean.
What makes the cut strong are not the conditions but the fact that you can spec for full tank and still deal a decent amount of damage.
Now comes the tricky part: im not really calling for a nerf here but a change…
Low risk due to high defence shouldn’t be rewarded with that “much” damage.
First lets increase the condition damage:
Make conditions crit! A new stats set (cond/critdmg/prec) would open many new ways how one could play conditions!
Crits deal 50% more damage even if you have no stats in crit damage (correct me if im wrong). With a full set of cond crit stats it would increase your cond dmg by ~160% making bleeds tick for up to 300! To keep traits and sigils balanced such things could only trigger by a weapon crit and not by cond crits.
Now you can call me insane and conditions op etc but im not done yet:
Make damage mitigation (armor/traits/boons) affect conditions.
That way such a “condcannon” bleed wouldn’t tick for 300 but for 200(armor) or even for less with protection. You may think that even 200 bleed ticks are op but dont forget that such a player has no defence anymore and current berserk glass cannons deal about the same damage if not more.
With the armor affecting conditions cond tanks wouldnt be that strong anymore and some builds (cond/prec/though) would remain almost as they are now.
This would also open a new path for hybrid builds as they would benefit from the crit dmg in direct and cond dmg.
Now how about pvm. If such a change would happen a lot of people would maybe consider playing conditions. The problem here is the condition cap..
Every player should get his own conditions. You have your own 25stacks of bleed 1 fire 1 poison etc. It doesnt make sense that there is a condition cap right now because there isnt a cap for a max amount of swords able to hit the boss either.
Now my last point are non living objects. With the loss of power stats due to the new crit cond prec stats this gets a bit difficult. Either let cond dmg take the role of power (would need a bit of scaling for example cond dmg *2 “=power” or let certain conditions affect objects. Well a tree cant bleed but it can defo burn!
Tldr
New stat combo: cond crit prec
Conds able to crit (not triggering on crit effects)
Armor and protection/traits affect conds
Every player gets his own cond cap (25 stack bleeds etc)
Dmg to objects either affected by conddmg or by certain conds f.e burn

Let me hear your opinions!
Kind regards

a thread i once made. the answer i recieved was “too much work to implement, not gonna happen.” been saying this for a long time that conditions need changes. same for healing.

I dont really like the suggestion, but it is amusing that people go around ranting that conditions are OP because they go through armour and theres no stat to decrease them, but if you try to apply the same logic the other way round they think you’re a crazy person.

Also,

Aleglast.6027:

Zacchary.6183:

Nope. Not until combat is balanced as a whole.

Blancing conditions is part of balancing combat……

Truer words have never been spoken.

Do not look at all those useless reactions please.
First let me say that I am glad you are thinking about helping out conditions.

However I am afraid that I have to say to disagree with this idea because of the following:
Conditions currently seem to be weak in PvE group fights. Enemies have a maximum stack of conditions which they can have which is not hard to reach with a fair group, making the condition bases build deal relatively lower damage.
Your idea does not help out this problem but mostly boosts conditions in PvP and WvW, where they are already fairly strong.
I think the we should more think in the direction of personal conditions. Every enemy applies its own condition. Hard to balance but probably the only way to the solution.

Have a nice day, every day!
Fvux.

Jekkt.6045:

snip

Now how about pvm. If such a change would happen a lot of people would maybe consider playing conditions. The problem here is the condition cap..
Every player should get his own conditions. You have your own 25stacks of bleed 1 fire 1 poison etc. It doesnt make sense that there is a condition cap right now because there isnt a cap for a max amount of swords able to hit the boss either.

snip

a thread i once made. the answer i recieved was “too much work to implement, not gonna happen.” been saying this for a long time that conditions need changes. same for healing.

its not hard to balance. if you ever played final fantasy 14 a real reborn; every player has his own set of conditions which are not overwritten or capped by other players conditions. for pvp, make cleanses cleanse kinds of conditions. if you have 54 bleeds stacks thats 1 kind of a condition; bleeding. when you cleanse, all 54 stacks go away.

you have to see conditions like delayed axe or swords hit of whatever class. there is no cap of how many swords can hit you. same should apply for conditions.

Aleglast.6027:

So there has been a lot of complaints about condition builds in this game, that they are under powered and not viable in pvp.

That’s hilarious.

the fact that your said “in pvp” almost made me fall off my chair laughing,
as a rank 65 who rarely does anything other than pvp i am sick of conditions being the only thing that ever shows on the death breakdown, 15k bleed, 15k burning, 5k poison etc…

you could make an argument for pve or WvW,
but conditions are way too spammable in pvp already, and you want them buffed?

i dont even….

Aleglast.6027:

1. More powerful, does 100-200% more damage
2. Impossible to remove for 2-6 seconds.
3. Doubles stack, if one stack of bleed applied goes critical it becomes 2 stacks.
4. double duration, the critical condition goes double, or a certain percentage, longer.
5. Increased speed, the condition ticks faster.

1. Would that be per-stack or per condition? Because if it’s per condition, all it needs is one crit to take your damage from 3000/s to 6000/s, which is pretty ridiculous, especially for PvP.
2. Yeah, nope. The ability to cleanse conditions is one of the things that makes it unique.
3. That would just result in every condi build maxing out their stacks ridiculously easy, even when alone. And it would make the PvE situation even worse.
4. It would either be useless due to being too long or OP due to increasing the damage of short duration multistack skills too far. Not to mention what would happen with Fear. For example, Flurry currently puts out 12 stacks for 2s. With 100% condition duration, that’s 12 stacks for 4s. Add in your 100% and that’s 12 stacks for 8s on a skill that is on a 7-10s cooldown. And 12 stacks for 8s deals 13,632 damage with 2000 condi damage.
5. That would either literally double condi damage or present some serious issues with the tick counters.

I don’t think that Condition Damage needs to be increased, at least not in PvP. In PvP, condis are doing extremely well because they only need Condition Damage as their stat, allowing a condi spec to use armor that has Condi Damage and two defensive stats on it, most commonly Dire, resulting in high damage and a lot of survivability.

In PvE, the issue isn’t necessarily that individual condis deal bad damage, it’s that the condi cap is far too easy to reach. And for that, there are much better solutions than adding a whole new stat into the game.

I love how you say “as a necro you work hard for your 25 stacks of bleed”. Put aside the fact that you can even get 25 stacks of bleed, the necro can apply a full list of conditions with a single button press. Hard work? WTF?

Liewec.2896:

the fact that your said “in pvp” almost made me fall off my chair laughing,
as a rank 65 who rarely does anything other than pvp i am sick of conditions being the only thing that ever shows on the death breakdown, 15k bleed, 15k burning, 5k poison etc…

you could make an argument for pve or WvW,
but conditions are way too spammable in pvp already, and you want them buffed?

i dont even….

Yea… they’re actually even worse in WvW. Balancing combat in general is much, much, much more complex than just buffing conditions because condi users can’t just spam one button and win (instead of just facerolling the keyboard). This is especially apparently since some classes have extremely low access to condi removal (thieves). OP unfortunately doesn’t have his facts straight.