Guild Wars 2

I was thinking about improving D/D thief

Death blossom : +10% damage and shadowstep to a foe 600 range (shadowstep first then spinning animation to make this possible to dodge)

Dancing dagger: +10% damage and + 25-33% dagger speed

About Shadow arts I would like to see a swap between last refuge and cloaked in shadow. I don’t want to discuss about last refuge being a killer or a life saver since I believe that cloaked in shadow would bee more useful in that spot.

What are your thoughts ?

They won’t buff offhand dagger since the current strength of S/D.

The issue with D/D is that #3 is useless to a power spec. It should be removed and a new skill added. Give thiefs a new melee main hand weapon and make death blossom the #2 skill there.

yeah, i’ve been meaning to make a thread on this for a while. they should just turn death blossom into a power-spec skill.

condi thieves using D/D can only do so in PvE (where spamming 3 like an idiot before switching weapons won’t get you killed), and have 4 useless skills on their set VS one good skill.

power D/D thieves lose their dual skill, which is a bit hit, when you consider every other combination has a good dual skill (before anyone says P/D, shadow strike is a pretty good escape, though it could have better range on the melee)

style.6173:

They won’t buff offhand dagger since the current strength of S/D.

The issue with D/D is that #3 is useless to a power spec. It should be removed and a new skill added. Give thiefs a new melee main hand weapon and make death blossom the #2 skill there.

death blossom needs to stay a D/D skill, for GW1’s sake! it was one of the best dagger mastery assassin skills, and it did virtually the same thing it does in GW2, except it was based on raw damage, not DoT.

If they just turn death blossom into a power skill D/D will continue to suffer the lacking of a good gap closer since hearthseeker can be easily countered (as gap closer) with cripple chill and immobilize

Revoke.1425:

If they just turn death blossom into a power skill D/D will continue to suffer the lacking of a good gap closer since hearthseeker can be easily countered (as gap closer) with cripple chill and immobilize

thieves never, ever lack a gap closer. thieves have a gap closer as their class skill.

also, “can be countered”. oh noes! we haz a counter! no free tickets! i mean, it’s totally not like we have a super low CD healing skill that cleanses specifically those skills, or a utility that acts in the same manner as said heal.

BrunoBRS.5178:

Revoke.1425:

If they just turn death blossom into a power skill D/D will continue to suffer the lacking of a good gap closer since hearthseeker can be easily countered (as gap closer) with cripple chill and immobilize

thieves never, ever lack a gap closer. thieves have a gap closer as their class skill.

I said a good gap closer, I love steal, but I think it’s not enough, D/P has #3, sword has #2, D/P and sword thieves can chase a lot due to those skills

BrunoBRS.5178:

also, “can be countered”. oh noes! we haz a counter! no free tickets! i mean, it’s totally not like we have a super low CD healing skill that cleanses specifically those skills, or a utility that acts in the same manner as said heal.

Now, if you want to mock me, go ahead. I’m not that kind of person that ask for nerf when beaten, I’m trying to be constructive, is build variety a bad thing? Let’s remove infiltrator strike and shadow shot then, let’s remove hide in shadow since we already have withdraw.

Revoke.1425:

BrunoBRS.5178:

Revoke.1425:

If they just turn death blossom into a power skill D/D will continue to suffer the lacking of a good gap closer since hearthseeker can be easily countered (as gap closer) with cripple chill and immobilize

thieves never, ever lack a gap closer. thieves have a gap closer as their class skill.

I said a good gap closer, I love steal, but I think it’s not enough, D/P has #3, sword has #2, D/P and sword thieves can chase a lot due to those skills

and D/P has a much harder time entering stealth (or rather, they consume a lot more ini to do it). it’s a tradeoff. you also have that ranged cripple on dagger 4 that people love to pretend isn’t there.

Revoke.1425:

BrunoBRS.5178:

also, “can be countered”. oh noes! we haz a counter! no free tickets! i mean, it’s totally not like we have a super low CD healing skill that cleanses specifically those skills, or a utility that acts in the same manner as said heal.

Now, if you want to mock me, go ahead. I’m not that kind of person that ask for nerf when beaten, I’m trying to be constructive, is build variety a bad thing? Let’s remove infiltrator strike and shadow shot then, let’s remove hide in shadow since we already have withdraw.

no, my point is every thief thread goes like this:

>come up with a valid complaint about something that needs to be fixed with the profession

>turn it into “let’s buff things that are already pretty good”.

it makes us thieves look like bottom tier whiners. not every single thief set needs on demand gap closers, and it’s not like dagger mainhand is missing one, it’s just not the “lolscrewdebuffs” style we are used to. in fact, shadow shot is probably weaker than heartseeker for gap closing. shadow shot can be LOS’d, shadow shot can be evaded, shadow shot can be blocked, countered by blinds, or even not work because of range, whereas heartseeker you just need a direction. yes, i’m aware D/P has both options.

each set has its strengths and weaknesses, every class needs counters. complaining that a cheap, spammable gap closer can be countered in the same way every gap closer from other professions can be is downright silly.

the problem with D/D is that it’s #3 skill doesn’t work with its power-centric style, and it has too long an aftercast to be a reliable dodge skill. let’s not make another issue where there is none.

Ini generates so quickly and the spec in question gains ini when entering stealth usually. Any real disadvantage from using BP+Leap is negated.

As to the original question, the skill obviously can’t be used for offense because D/D already has high burst. And is an additional 150 range on your suggested skill even going to have any real impact on anything as a gap closer? May as well use the homing HS at that point, no?

IMO, what D/D is missing is an interrupt (assuming you don’t go 6 tricks for it). I’d much rather see the move turn into a kick. Low damage but applies X vulnerability. If used from the front, it can daze.

Probably OP though

Atherakhia.4086:

Ini generates so quickly and the spec in question gains ini when entering stealth usually. Any real disadvantage from using BP+Leap is negated.

As to the original question, the skill obviously can’t be used for offense because D/D already has high burst. And is an additional 150 range on your suggested skill even going to have any real impact on anything as a gap closer? May as well use the homing HS at that point, no?

IMO, what D/D is missing is an interrupt (assuming you don’t go 6 tricks for it). I’d much rather see the move turn into a kick. Low damage but applies X vulnerability. If used from the front, it can daze.

Probably OP though

It’s not the 150 additional range it’s the shadowstep that would be the real benefit.

Atherakhia.4086:

Ini generates so quickly and the spec in question gains ini when entering stealth usually. Any real disadvantage from using BP+Leap is negated.

As to the original question, the skill obviously can’t be used for offense because D/D already has high burst. And is an additional 150 range on your suggested skill even going to have any real impact on anything as a gap closer? May as well use the homing HS at that point, no?

IMO, what D/D is missing is an interrupt (assuming you don’t go 6 tricks for it). I’d much rather see the move turn into a kick. Low damage but applies X vulnerability. If used from the front, it can daze.

Probably OP though

you mean like twitchy jake from the human personal story? his version of death blossom is a melee knockdown (but has no evade and he doesn’t move). any key farmer should be familiar with the fellow.

yeah, it would be OP unless it cost insane amounts of ini.

as for BP+HS, the execution time and the ini expense can be a hurdle in combat. plus the trait you’re talking about got nerfed recently (and i’m not talking about SA builds anyway).

BrunoBRS.5178:

Revoke.1425:

BrunoBRS.5178:

also, “can be countered”. oh noes! we haz a counter! no free tickets! i mean, it’s totally not like we have a super low CD healing skill that cleanses specifically those skills, or a utility that acts in the same manner as said heal.

Now, if you want to mock me, go ahead. I’m not that kind of person that ask for nerf when beaten, I’m trying to be constructive, is build variety a bad thing? Let’s remove infiltrator strike and shadow shot then, let’s remove hide in shadow since we already have withdraw.

no, my point is every thief thread goes like this:

>come up with a valid complaint about something that needs to be fixed with the profession

>turn it into “let’s buff things that are already pretty good”.

it makes us thieves look like bottom tier whiners. not every single thief set needs on demand gap closers, and it’s not like dagger mainhand is missing one, it’s just not the “lolscrewdebuffs” style we are used to. in fact, shadow shot is probably weaker than heartseeker for gap closing. shadow shot can be LOS’d, shadow shot can be evaded, shadow shot can be blocked, countered by blinds, or even not work because of range, whereas heartseeker you just need a direction. yes, i’m aware D/P has both options.

each set has its strengths and weaknesses, every class needs counters. complaining that a cheap, spammable gap closer can be countered in the same way every gap closer from other professions can be is downright silly.

the problem with D/D is that it’s #3 skill doesn’t work with its power-centric style, and it has too long an aftercast to be a reliable dodge skill. let’s not make another issue where there is none.

Maybe it’s my playstyle but I find shadowshot much more reliable than heartseeker.
Swapping bleeding with vulnerability? In this scenario let’s forget the +10% damage that I suggested in the opening.

BrunoBRS.5178:

Atherakhia.4086:

Ini generates so quickly and the spec in question gains ini when entering stealth usually. Any real disadvantage from using BP+Leap is negated.

As to the original question, the skill obviously can’t be used for offense because D/D already has high burst. And is an additional 150 range on your suggested skill even going to have any real impact on anything as a gap closer? May as well use the homing HS at that point, no?

IMO, what D/D is missing is an interrupt (assuming you don’t go 6 tricks for it). I’d much rather see the move turn into a kick. Low damage but applies X vulnerability. If used from the front, it can daze.

Probably OP though

you mean like twitchy jake from the human personal story? his version of death blossom is a melee knockdown (but has no evade and he doesn’t move). any key farmer should be familiar with the fellow.

yeah, it would be OP unless it cost insane amounts of ini.

as for BP+HS, the execution time and the ini expense can be a hurdle in combat. plus the trait you’re talking about got nerfed recently (and i’m not talking about SA builds anyway).

No, I’m talking about just a normal single target daze like hilt bash for Ranger except it’s just a vuln but also dazes if used from the front (kick to the gut).

Atherakhia.4086:

BrunoBRS.5178:

Atherakhia.4086:

Ini generates so quickly and the spec in question gains ini when entering stealth usually. Any real disadvantage from using BP+Leap is negated.

As to the original question, the skill obviously can’t be used for offense because D/D already has high burst. And is an additional 150 range on your suggested skill even going to have any real impact on anything as a gap closer? May as well use the homing HS at that point, no?

IMO, what D/D is missing is an interrupt (assuming you don’t go 6 tricks for it). I’d much rather see the move turn into a kick. Low damage but applies X vulnerability. If used from the front, it can daze.

Probably OP though

you mean like twitchy jake from the human personal story? his version of death blossom is a melee knockdown (but has no evade and he doesn’t move). any key farmer should be familiar with the fellow.

yeah, it would be OP unless it cost insane amounts of ini.

as for BP+HS, the execution time and the ini expense can be a hurdle in combat. plus the trait you’re talking about got nerfed recently (and i’m not talking about SA builds anyway).

No, I’m talking about just a normal single target daze like hilt bash for Ranger except it’s just a vuln but also dazes if used from the front (kick to the gut).

i think it would work better with “daze if from behind”. having the stronger effect be easier to apply is counterintuitive, plus it would allow a “double death blossom” combo. use it twice, get vulnerability and daze if the target isn’t fast enough.

ini cost would probably rise to 6 though. and only 3 stacks of vulnerability, even if AoE, would be pretty lame. maybe 2 stacks per hit, for a total of 6?

note: i’m trying to keep the death blossom’s “core” intact. throwing it away isn’t happening (and i hope not). so 3 strikes, melee AoE, same animation, built-in dodge (could be longer to match the animation, or get rid of that annoying aftercast).

Only reason I said from the front was, while it’s easier to land, it’s kind of counter to the place the Thief wants to be since they want to be off to the side or back for the other bonuses.

But I figured 4 was reasonable since that’s what Headshot is which is a ranged daze. If you really want a movement skill you could put an internal cooldown on daze and have it do something like:

Kick – Leap 450 at the target and apply X vuln stacks and daze the target if struck from the Y (ICD:5 seconds). You can leap a second time at half cost if used within 3 seconds.

That way you could get your gap closer and a interrupt.

[edit…] As to keeping Death Blossom in tact, hard call imo. If you just made it leap forward it would be too similar to heart seaker imo. It’s going to be a hard thing to work around if you’re looking for a dynamic change in the Thief’s playstyle.

Atherakhia.4086:

Only reason I said from the front was, while it’s easier to land, it’s kind of counter to the place the Thief wants to be since they want to be off to the side or back for the other bonuses.

But I figured 4 was reasonable since that’s what Headshot is which is a ranged daze. If you really want a movement skill you could put an internal cooldown on daze and have it do something like:

Kick – Leap 450 at the target and apply X vuln stacks and daze the target if struck from the Y (ICD:5 seconds). You can leap a second time at half cost if used within 3 seconds.

That way you could get your gap closer and a interrupt.

[edit…] As to keeping Death Blossom in tact, hard call imo. If you just made it leap forward it would be too similar to heart seaker imo. It’s going to be a hard thing to work around if you’re looking for a dynamic change in the Thief’s playstyle.

i don’t think it’s a hard call at all. the only real problem with death blossom is it’s a condi skill on a power set. redesign its values to be useful for a power spec and you can keep the skill. anything from increasing the damage and losing the bleed, to improving its evade, to, why not, giving 1 stack of might (low duration) per hit.

there are various ways to keep death blossom while changing the tooltip.

BrunoBRS.5178:

Atherakhia.4086:

BrunoBRS.5178:

Atherakhia.4086:

Ini generates so quickly and the spec in question gains ini when entering stealth usually. Any real disadvantage from using BP+Leap is negated.

As to the original question, the skill obviously can’t be used for offense because D/D already has high burst. And is an additional 150 range on your suggested skill even going to have any real impact on anything as a gap closer? May as well use the homing HS at that point, no?

IMO, what D/D is missing is an interrupt (assuming you don’t go 6 tricks for it). I’d much rather see the move turn into a kick. Low damage but applies X vulnerability. If used from the front, it can daze.

Probably OP though

you mean like twitchy jake from the human personal story? his version of death blossom is a melee knockdown (but has no evade and he doesn’t move). any key farmer should be familiar with the fellow.

yeah, it would be OP unless it cost insane amounts of ini.

as for BP+HS, the execution time and the ini expense can be a hurdle in combat. plus the trait you’re talking about got nerfed recently (and i’m not talking about SA builds anyway).

No, I’m talking about just a normal single target daze like hilt bash for Ranger except it’s just a vuln but also dazes if used from the front (kick to the gut).

i think it would work better with “daze if from behind”. having the stronger effect be easier to apply is counterintuitive, plus it would allow a “double death blossom” combo. use it twice, get vulnerability and daze if the target isn’t fast enough.

ini cost would probably rise to 6 though. and only 3 stacks of vulnerability, even if AoE, would be pretty lame. maybe 2 stacks per hit, for a total of 6?

note: i’m trying to keep the death blossom’s “core” intact. throwing it away isn’t happening (and i hope not). so 3 strikes, melee AoE, same animation, built-in dodge (could be longer to match the animation, or get rid of that annoying aftercast).

Could it be more stack of vulnerability per hit, 3 stacks short duration (4sec?), either one per hit for a long duration (10 sec?)?

Revoke.1425:

BrunoBRS.5178:

Atherakhia.4086:

BrunoBRS.5178:

Atherakhia.4086:

Ini generates so quickly and the spec in question gains ini when entering stealth usually. Any real disadvantage from using BP+Leap is negated.

As to the original question, the skill obviously can’t be used for offense because D/D already has high burst. And is an additional 150 range on your suggested skill even going to have any real impact on anything as a gap closer? May as well use the homing HS at that point, no?

IMO, what D/D is missing is an interrupt (assuming you don’t go 6 tricks for it). I’d much rather see the move turn into a kick. Low damage but applies X vulnerability. If used from the front, it can daze.

Probably OP though

you mean like twitchy jake from the human personal story? his version of death blossom is a melee knockdown (but has no evade and he doesn’t move). any key farmer should be familiar with the fellow.

yeah, it would be OP unless it cost insane amounts of ini.

as for BP+HS, the execution time and the ini expense can be a hurdle in combat. plus the trait you’re talking about got nerfed recently (and i’m not talking about SA builds anyway).

No, I’m talking about just a normal single target daze like hilt bash for Ranger except it’s just a vuln but also dazes if used from the front (kick to the gut).

i think it would work better with “daze if from behind”. having the stronger effect be easier to apply is counterintuitive, plus it would allow a “double death blossom” combo. use it twice, get vulnerability and daze if the target isn’t fast enough.

ini cost would probably rise to 6 though. and only 3 stacks of vulnerability, even if AoE, would be pretty lame. maybe 2 stacks per hit, for a total of 6?

note: i’m trying to keep the death blossom’s “core” intact. throwing it away isn’t happening (and i hope not). so 3 strikes, melee AoE, same animation, built-in dodge (could be longer to match the animation, or get rid of that annoying aftercast).

Could it be more stack of vulnerability per hit, 3 stacks short duration (4sec?), either one per hit for a long duration (10 sec?)?

i guess it could, i just see vulnerability as a kinda crappy condition unless you stack tons of it, which a death blossom wouldn’t do.

plus, cloak and dagger already applies vulnerability.