DGC 1: Movement skills as "skill-shots"

DGC 1: Movement skills as "skill-shots"

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Posted by: Swagg.9236

Swagg.9236

The above video hopes to shed some light on potential mechanical improvements for GW2 in general.

This topic is about the potential of making movement skills into “skill-shots.” A skill-shot is typically defined by the idea that the effort of successfully striking a given target is put primarily in the hands of the player as opposed to relying on a sticky-targeting system. With respect to the video, here is a remade [Leap of Faith] that no longer requires a target to hit reliably and puts the act of striking a target in the hands of the player:

(edited by Swagg.9236)

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Posted by: Swagg.9236

Swagg.9236

Guardian greatsword
[Leap of Faith] (3-1)

  • FUNCTIONALITY CHANGED
  • Cast-time: 0
  • Recharge: 15 seconds
  • Leap in a target direction.
  • Combo Finisher: Leap
  • Range: 600
    • This skill now uses a ground-targeted directional reticle ala Warrior [Whirlwind Strike].
    • This skill now chains into another skill upon completion: [Stonesoul Strike].

Important notes about [Leap of Faith]:
The lack of a channel time imposed on the actual movement animation allows that animation to be interrupted by skill use because the leaping animation is no longer actually a skill. This sets the player up to use this skill’s subsequent chain skill while still in mid-movement.

[Stonesoul Strike] (3-2)

  • Cast-time: ½ second
  • Crash down onto the ground beneath you, blinding and damaging adjacent foes.
  • Damage: 406 (1.0)
  • Damage radius: 180
  • Blind: 3 seconds
    • This chain skill remains active for up to 1.5 seconds.

Important notes about [Stonesoul Strike]
Due to the fact that [Leap of Faith] technically takes the Guardian into the air, we must circumvent the issue of skills not being able to be activated in mid-air. There are a few skills available to players that can be activated while in mid-air. Among them are Elementalist attunements as well as [Ride the Lightning]. [Ride the Lightning] perhaps contains the best “solution code” for solving the issue of implementing [Stonesoul Strike].

[Ride the Lightning] is technically classified as a “Form” in addition to not having a cast-time. It disables all skills until the skill runs its course. My theory is that those two principles are the fundamental code that allow [Ride the Lightning] to be used in mid-air unlike most other skills.

Therefore, one way to implement such a chain skill like what we see with [Leap of Faith] into [Soulstone Strike] is to give [Leap of Faith] a very short activation animation that leads into a non-channeled movement animation. Then, [Stonesoul Strike] is classified as a form. This form technically has an instant activation time; the ½-second “cast-time” in the tool-tip describes roughly how long the attack animation takes to resolve once in the [Stonesoul Strike] form. After that attack animation resolves, the Guardian then travels directly down until it strikes the ground. Upon landing, [Stonesoul Strike] then applies its effects to the area.

The [Stonesoul Strike] form lasts for up to 2 seconds, and while in this form, the Guardian moves at a speed of 600 range/second (in the same manner as [Ride the Lightning]). This duration and movement speed increase is to not only allow the Guardian to travel to the ground quickly after the attack animation so as to minimize the lag-time between attack animation and [Stonesoul Strike]’s effects, but it also exists to allow the Guardian to perhaps leap off of a high elevation and potential strike foes that are some distance below instead of letting [Stonesoul Strike] simply peter out some distance above a valid target that is far below the Guardian as what often happens now with [Leap of Faith].

(edited by Swagg.9236)

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Posted by: Swagg.9236

Swagg.9236

Thief dagger main-hand
[Heartseeker] (2-1)

  • Cast-time: 0
  • Initiative cost: 3
  • Leap in a target direction.
  • Combo Finisher: Leap
  • Range: 450
    • This skill now uses a ground-targeted directional reticle ala Warrior [Whirlwind Strike].
    • This skill now chains into another skill upon completion: [Heart Striker].

[Heart Striker] (2-2)

  • Cast-time: ½ second
  • Initiative cost: 1
  • Crash down onto the ground beneath you, striking adjacent foes. This attack is more powerful against foes with less health.
  • vs foes with 100% – 50% hp: Damage: 252 (0.75); Vulnerability (3): 5 seconds
  • vs foes with 50% – 25% hp: Damage: 402 (1.1); Vulnerability (5): 5 seconds
  • vs foes with 25% – 0% hp: Damage: 618 (1.5); Vulnerability (10): 5 seconds
  • Damage radius: 120
    • This skill strikes up to 3 foes.
    • This chain skill remains active for up to 1 second.

Warrior sword main-hand
[Savage Leap] (2-1)

  • Cast-time: 0
  • Recharge: 10 seconds
  • Leap in a target direction.
  • Combo Finisher: Leap
  • Range: 600
    • This skill now uses a ground-targeted directional reticle ala Warrior [Whirlwind Strike].
    • This skill now chains into another skill upon completion: [Savage Strike].

[Savage Strike] (2-2)

  • Cast-time: ½ second
  • Crash down onto the ground beneath you and cripple adjacent foes.
  • Damage: 252 (0.75)
  • Damage radius: 120
  • Crippled: 3 seconds
    • This skill strikes up to 3 foes.
    • This chain skill remains active for up to 1.5 seconds.

Warrior axe main-hand
[Executioner’s Leap] (F1-1)

  • Cast-time: 0
  • Recharge: 10 seconds
  • Leap in a target direction.
  • Combo Finisher: Leap
  • Range: 300

[Eviscerate] (F1-2)

  • Cast-time: ¾ second
  • Crash down into the ground, slashing adjacent foes with a devastating attack.
  • Level 1 damage: 672 (2.0)
  • Level 2 damage: 840 (2.5)
  • Level 3 damage: 1008 (3.0)
  • Damage radius: 120
    • This skill strikes up to 3 foes.
    • This chain skill remains active for up to 1 second.

(edited by Swagg.9236)

DGC 1: Movement skills as "skill-shots"

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Posted by: Swagg.9236

Swagg.9236

Elementalist dagger main-hand (fire)
[Burning Speed] (3-1)

  • FUNCTIONALITY CHANGED
  • Cast-time: 0
  • Recharge: 15 seconds
  • Quickly slide in a target direction, leaving behind a line of fire that burns foes.
  • Line damage: 34 (0.1)
  • Line duration: 4 seconds
  • Combo Field: Fire
  • Range: 600
    • This skill now uses a ground-targeted directional reticle ala Warrior [Whirlwind Strike].
    • This skill now chains into another skill upon cast-completion: [Star Burst]

[Star Burst] (3-2)

  • Cast-time: ¾ second
  • Blast the area around you with a powerful explosion.
  • Damage: 672 (2.0)
  • Damage radius: 180
  • Burning: 1 second

Important notes about [Star Burst]:
Due to the fact that [Burning Speed] does not make the user airborne, there’s no real need to worry about coding [Star Burst] to function as an instant-cast form. The only caveat with that, though, is that using [Burning Speed] off of a cliff or any elevation will probably prevent the player from using the chain skill given that the player will be in mid-air for that duration and the chain skill will only be available for a very short time.

[Star Burst] does not root the player during its cast-time, but it’s PBAoE will only affect the area at which the skill was first activated.

Warrior sword off-hand
[Savage Charge] (4-1)

  • Cast-time: 0
  • Recharge: 20 seconds
  • Dash in a target direction.
  • Range: 600
    • This skill now uses a ground-targeted directional reticle ala Warrior [Whirlwind Strike].
    • While dashing, the Warrior is posed in the final animation frame of the Warrior [Final Thrust] attack.
    • This skill now chains into another skill upon cast-completion: [Impale].

[Impale] (4-2)

  • Cast-time: ½ second
  • Thrust your sword in the target direction. If you strike a foe, you and that foe are immobilized. This attack bleeds vulnerable foes. This attack strips up to 2 boons from foes.
  • Damage: 179 (0.55)
  • Immobilize: 2 seconds
  • Self-immobilize: 1 second
  • Bleeding vs vulnerable foes (5): 10 seconds
  • Range: 130
    • This skill uses the Charradis Estate Bug Catching Jar reticle to aim its attack.
    • This skill cleaves.

Physical skills
[Bull’s Rush]

(edited by Swagg.9236)

DGC 1: Movement skills as "skill-shots"

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Posted by: Swagg.9236

Swagg.9236

Reserved for future skill updates:

[Fiery Rush]
[Swoop]

DGC 1: Movement skills as "skill-shots"

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Posted by: Swagg.9236

Swagg.9236

Reserved for future skill updates:
[Fiery Rush]
[Swoop]

Additional mechanic explanations.

(edited by Swagg.9236)

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Posted by: rhodoc.2381

rhodoc.2381

Yes it feels more like the owning the shot but it decreases the reliablity of the skill. The hit chance decreased. Especially if you want to catch new players or keep noob players.

GUessing where the enemy will be in 0.5sec or 1sec is yeah fun but you dont have ppl just running in a line and u cant do just a simple geometry.

Just think warr rush or ele rtl, you wont be hitting any1 that doesnt standing still even has a chance to miss if you fail to activate the chain skill.

But yeah some fast happening skills like burning speed may have this feature.

[VcY] Velocity – Gargamell

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Posted by: Jzaku.9765

Jzaku.9765

All that ranting was hilarious to watch.

One concern I have is that your changes involve making all gap closers AoEs. AoE Eviscerate or Heartseeker would be pretty kitten strong, would the increased skill required to land those skills justify that?

Otherwise, hey, sign me up for not having homing attacks that fling you at your target even if you don’t know where they are. Also for these skills actually hitting anything but air when used from a higher elevation. Speaking of that, don’t forget Earthshaker, it has the exact same stop-in-mid-air-problem even if the targeting on that skill is miles better. The chain skill after the leap would simply not require Adrenaline to use and change in effectiveness depending on the rank of Adrenaline used for the leap.

(edited by Jzaku.9765)

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Posted by: Carighan.6758

Carighan.6758

While I like the idea in general, do keep in mind that MMOs are played by highly casual players to a significant degree, and many players rely on family / friends playing to keep themselves engaged.

Skill shots are – by definition – non-trivial to aim. We already have a combat system in which many many players are unable to fully utilize their character.

I’m not sure just adding to it is really helping. Though I like the idea. :o

The strength of heart to face oneself has been made manifest. The persona Carighan has appeared.

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Posted by: Swagg.9236

Swagg.9236

All that ranting was hilarious to watch.

One concern I have is that your changes involve making all gap closers AoEs. AoE Eviscerate or Heartseeker would be pretty kitten strong, would the increased skill required to land those skills justify that?

The radii for the AoE Heartseeker, Eviscerate, etc, etc would be 120 or 100. Those two numbers would be the ones to test. Start at 100. If everyone cries that it’s impossible to aim, increase to 120, but no more than that. Anything like 150 or—heaven forbid—180 radius on such a thing would be absolutely insane.

Speaking of that, don’t forget Earthshaker, it has the exact same stop-in-mid-air-problem even if the targeting on that skill is miles better. The chain skill after the leap would simply not require Adrenaline to use and change in effectiveness depending on the rank of Adrenaline used for the leap.

Yeah, it would be nice to fix that somehow, but, as I’ve said, I think the key to making that work is making it a chain skill with the second chain some kind of form that just rides the player into the ground beneath him/her. I dunno. Could be interesting.

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Posted by: vinceftw.5086

vinceftw.5086

Burning Speed is already a skillshot as you have to manually aim where you go, it doesn’t automatically go to your enemy, just like Fire Grab (x/D Fire 5). I agree though, more skills need this feature. Brings more skill into the game and is one of the reasons why League of Legends combat is so rewarding.

Elxyria – Engineer / Deluzio – Mesmer
Quickblade Vince – Thief
The Asurnator – Elementalist

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Posted by: rhodoc.2381

rhodoc.2381

Burning Speed is already a skillshot as you have to manually aim where you go, it doesn’t automatically go to your enemy, just like Fire Grab (x/D Fire 5). I agree though, more skills need this feature. Brings more skill into the game and is one of the reasons why League of Legends combat is so rewarding.

It goes where you facing not where you want to go like backwards

[VcY] Velocity – Gargamell

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Posted by: digiowl.9620

digiowl.9620

Reminds me that grasping dead was meant to be a line of skeletal hands early on. But supposedly ANet went with the GTAOE because people had trouble hitting thanks to lag.

And with the current camera system skill shots become a crap shot, imo.

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Posted by: Harper.4173

Harper.4173

I disagree. The game is fine as it is.

Why would we want this again?

If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”

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Posted by: Swagg.9236

Swagg.9236

Reminds me that grasping dead was meant to be a line of skeletal hands early on.

I was actually going to touch on that in the video, but I didn’t want it to get too long. The video that I had made that did include the commentary on the old [Grasping Dead] ended up being somewhere near 40 minutes long. I’d be all for bringing back the alpha [Grasping Dead], but I’d be more for giving that mechanic to a lot of ground-based projectile skills that already exist in the game but attempt to track targets with sticky-targeting instead: [Tremor] and [Shockwave] come to mind.

But supposedly ANet went with the GTAOE because people had trouble hitting thanks to lag.

And with the current camera system skill shots become a crap shot, imo.

I’ve discussed this sort of thing at length with another person and I’m still not sure that sacrificing rewarding game-play because “lag” or—even worse—“it’s hard to aim,” is worth it for the health of the game as a whole. One way to compensate would be to simply make the projectile hitboxes somewhat larger and then add more defined animation cues to the associated skills.

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Posted by: Swagg.9236

Swagg.9236

Burning Speed is already a skillshot

There’s nothing skillful about a 240-radius, high-damage, single-pulse AoE attack, ESPECIALLY now that it grants the player evasion frames while activating it. Furthermore, as rhodoc said, [Burning Speed] doesn’t give the player any real freedom of movement when activating it. It just forces the player to dash directly forward.

as you have to manually aim where you go, it doesn’t automatically go to your enemy, just like Fire Grab (x/D Fire 5).

[Fire Grab] could also benefit from this skill design. Just as what I demonstrated in the video, [Fire Grab] could be exactly that attack animation: aim the reticle, release the reticle, lunge in the target direction and damage those foes.

(edited by Swagg.9236)

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Posted by: Sarrs.4831

Sarrs.4831

you can already turn off autotargeting

i need to get used to swoop tho, i keep targeting random people and forgetting to detarget them and i jump off a million miles into the past

@9:00 “I am actually playing the game! It’s not playing itself for me!” calm down dude it’s just a leap skill

also gj on the sneaky heartseeker nerf

Nalhadia – Kaineng

(edited by Sarrs.4831)

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Posted by: Swagg.9236

Swagg.9236

you can already turn off autotargeting

Are you implying that I don’t already have that off?
Are you implying that turning off auto-targeting, deselecting targets and then using almost any ranged skill (movement skill or otherwise) freely means that the player has any real control over whether or not that skill will hit a target reliably?

i need to get used to swoop tho, i keep targeting random people and forgetting to detarget them and i jump off a million miles into the past

Just imagine if you could skip that step and just use [Swoop] because you knew where you wanted to go.

@9:00 “I am actually playing the game! It’s not playing itself for me!” calm down dude it’s just a leap skill

That one isn’t even a leap skill. It’s a cleaving melee attack that targets foes within its conical reticle. It doesn’t rely on the game’s targeting system so the player can freely determine where the player wants to move at all times simply based on their perspective rather than having to click a target and then rely on the computer to properly guide the attack for the player.

also gj on the sneaky heartseeker nerf

I took the updated damage and effects from my Thief thread. I’ve had plenty of discussion already about why that class doesn’t really even deserve to exist in GW2, but since it’s there and people would cry if it were removed, I’ve made the best of the situation with those changes.

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Posted by: Sarrs.4831

Sarrs.4831

Just imagine if you could skip that step and just use [Swoop] because you knew where you wanted to go.

I could alternatively just learn to detarget when I leave an engagement. That way swoop’s adjustments mid-attack will still happen.

Nalhadia – Kaineng

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Posted by: Swagg.9236

Swagg.9236

Just imagine if you could skip that step and just use [Swoop] because you knew where you wanted to go.

I could alternatively just learn to detarget when I leave an engagement. That way swoop’s adjustments mid-attack will still happen.

Yes, but then that’s you just accepting a clumsy mechanic. Why just take it when there is a clear solution to the problem?

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Posted by: Sarrs.4831

Sarrs.4831

Yes, but then that’s you just accepting a clumsy mechanic. Why just take it when there is a clear solution to the problem?

Is it really that clumsy?

If I have someone targeted, that means I want to attack them. The game will send my leap skills at them.

If I don’t have someone targeted, that means I want to leap forward. The game will send my leap skills forward.

Not hard. I just need to get used to it. I’d have more trouble telling the game to do what I want with instant-CD chain abilities because of accidental double taps.

Nalhadia – Kaineng

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Posted by: Swagg.9236

Swagg.9236

Yes, but then that’s you just accepting a clumsy mechanic. Why just take it when there is a clear solution to the problem?

Is it really that clumsy?

If I have someone targeted, that means I want to attack them. The game will send my leap skills at them.

If I don’t have someone targeted, that means I want to leap forward. The game will send my leap skills forward.

Not hard. I just need to get used to it. I’d have more trouble telling the game to do what I want with instant-CD chain abilities because of accidental double taps.

Selecting a target amidst AI clutter is clumsy. Juggling targets in mid-combat is clumsy. Detargeting an enemy just to use a skill as a movement ability and then being forced to quickly retarget should to want to reengage is clumsy.

I’m not making a debate on whether or not using the current system is difficult or not (which is what you are trying to turn it into). Rather, I’m saying that combat in general would feel more responsive, rewarding and would rely more on player skill if movement-based attack skills were simply redesigned to allow the user to make precise attacks without the targeting system. Then, I made the proposal on exactly which current mechanics to utilize in order to make this possible.

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Posted by: runeblade.7514

runeblade.7514

I don’t really like this.

There is reliability comes crashing down. ANet will need to buff these skills tremendously to compensate. I will hate leap of faith because the camera will move as I try to blind the enemies’ next attack. What if I leap into the wall? The camera will shift forward and that delay as I move my camera around will kill me.

Then there is risk of game-breaking bugs that your suggestions will take months or years to fix. How long did it take ANet to fix turret bugs? The necro’s DS delay bug is still there. Leaps like these scream bugs everywhere. Flamethrower’s Flame blast sometimes have a huge delay and rarely works.

A better idea is the ability to toggle auto-target on and off with a keybind, while also deselecting on toggling off at auto-target. It achieves way better results. It gives me a sense of ownership as I can use it to escape or chase targets without having to use the clunky deselect and select or risk running straight to the enemy and die.

5x Warrior, 5x Ranger, 4x Elementalist, 4x Engineer,
4x Necromancer, 3x Mesmer, 4x Guardian, 4x Thief, 4 Revenant

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Posted by: Sarrs.4831

Sarrs.4831

Selecting a target amidst AI clutter is clumsy. Juggling targets in mid-combat is clumsy. Detargeting an enemy just to use a skill as a movement ability and then being forced to quickly retarget should to want to reengage is clumsy.

We’ve found three problems here which contribute to the problem which you describe. These problems are not exclusive to leap skills, and the health of the entire game would be improved if they were addressed. With this in mind, I can solve the problem you describe with two or three additions, without 5 posts worth of skill changes.

1. A detarget/retarget keybind. Alternatively, a “suppress targeting” option which causes your skills to ignore targeting while it’s active and instead causes them to aim forward.
2. A change target keybind which completely ignores minions.
3. Individual focus targets. We already have group focus targets in Ctrl T, but not individual focus targets.

Your solution is cumbersome and does not address any of the above problems at their root. I’ve told you before:

Include problem identification in the preamble. It should be in the very first post and is absolutely vital (and I’m not watching a 15 minute video just to try to find out if you do identify the problem).
Do not tie suggestions in with your previous suggestions. Nobody wants to read your 50 million pages of justification for said suggestions, and they do not directly address the problem.

Nalhadia – Kaineng

(edited by Sarrs.4831)

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Posted by: Tyler.6182

Tyler.6182

While gw2 was still being made, I think arenanet was playing with the idea of having a combat system without targeting. Unfortunately they decided against it. I can’t remember their reasoning

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Posted by: digiowl.9620

digiowl.9620

While gw2 was still being made, I think arenanet was playing with the idea of having a combat system without targeting. Unfortunately they decided against it. I can’t remember their reasoning

I suspect it is the same reason that Jon Peters gave on Reddit for not having the option to toggle mouse look, “it made the game too action focused”.

Except that i for one find the game right now to be a action game with a awkward control scheme, thanks to the number of AOE circles and such i have to keep dodging during most events. May as well give me mouse aim and turn the game into a third person shooter, so that i can circle strafe that big bad until the cows come home…

Seemingly they don’t want us to stand still during a fight, yet they don’t want to make a “action game”. They can’t have it both ways!

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Posted by: Swagg.9236

Swagg.9236

While gw2 was still being made, I think arenanet was playing with the idea of having a combat system without targeting. Unfortunately they decided against it. I can’t remember their reasoning

I suspect it is the same reason that Jon Peters gave on Reddit for not having the option to toggle mouse look, “it made the game too action focused”.

Except that i for one find the game right now to be a action game with a awkward control scheme, thanks to the number of AOE circles and such i have to keep dodging during most events. May as well give me mouse aim and turn the game into a third person shooter, so that i can circle strafe that big bad until the cows come home…

Seemingly they don’t want us to stand still during a fight, yet they don’t want to make a “action game”. They can’t have it both ways!

This post probably best defines the issue: GW2—with the movement available to players—plays sort of like a 3rd-person shooter, but the targeting system just gives everyone a clumsy aimbot that only works well on selected targets. Not only does this make it difficult to juggle multiple targets, but it also makes the combat unfair and not necessarily enjoyable or rewarding for either the attacker or the target.

In the end, the only thing that GW2’s targeting system truly accomplished was to lower this game’s skill ceiling to claustrophobic levels and frustrate the development of fluid combat and player control. The targeting system filters the vast majority of player skill out of the act of striking an opponent. Moreover, given that the vast majority of ranged damage (whether it be leaps, projectile-based attacks or even direct-to-target teleports) must pass through this filter in order to hit reliably and can only strike single targets.

This all combines to make juggling targets, making effective snap re-targeting decisions and capitalizing on positioning something that is not only far more difficult than it should be but also far less rewarding in general because the game typically plays itself for the operator from the moment that a ranged player selects a target.

The so-called “Combat Mod” (I’m not sure if it’s still in use or not) was an interesting development for GW2, because it not only gave the player a reliable means to snap target with single-target ranged attacks, but it also just gave the ranged player’s attacks a reliable path by fixing the camera positioning (the ranged player always knew where his attacks would go even if he didn’t have a selected target). However, despite those innovations, the Combat Mod did manage to make AoE-centric play-styles somewhat more frustrating to use because it fixed most attacks to a single lane directly in front of the player.

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Posted by: Vox Hollow.2736

Vox Hollow.2736

You know, when I’m playing other games and the occasional ‘I like how GW2 did _________’ thought crosses my mind. That blank is never filled with something about the combat system. Living story, micro-transactions, shared claim and loot; that’s the stuff I end up missing.

I think this game could do well by adding skillshots.
Because I kind of wish there were more opportunities for clutch memorable moments. If I look back on my GW2 play, I just don’t have many combat campfire stories. And the ones I do have are related to the downed state. Which is all well and good, but it’s not like other games don’t offer awesome clutch combat experiences and then a downed state system on top of that.

(edited by Vox Hollow.2736)

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Posted by: Swagg.9236

Swagg.9236

We’ve found three problems here which contribute to the problem which you describe. These problems are not exclusive to leap skills, and the health of the entire game would be improved if they were addressed. With this in mind, I can solve the problem you describe with two or three additions, without 5 posts worth of skill changes.

1. A detarget/retarget keybind. Alternatively, a “suppress targeting” option which causes your skills to ignore targeting while it’s active and instead causes them to aim forward.
2. A change target keybind which completely ignores minions.
3. Individual focus targets. We already have group focus targets in Ctrl T, but not individual focus targets.

Your solution is cumbersome and does not address any of the above problems at their root.

And your “solution” preserves the skill-filter that is the GW2 targeting system. It’s an additional step that a player must complete before dealing most ranged damage instead of simply being able to judge distances, timing and player movement, and then using a skill accordingly. Not only does the latter not have an extra, unnecessary step in the process of using a ranged skill to deal damage to a target, but due to the lack of a targeting system, the effort and reward of hitting a target is entirely placed on the shoulders of the player.

I’m eliminating a tedious step from the damage-dealing process. Making more buttons just to feed the skill-filter is not an actual solution to the trash that is the GW2 targeting system. Freeing ranged skills from the targeting system is a solution to a lot of the skill-less game-play that plagues GW2.

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Posted by: Sarrs.4831

Sarrs.4831

And your “solution” preserves the skill-filter that is the GW2 targeting system. It’s an additional step that a player must complete before dealing most ranged damage instead of simply being able to judge distances, timing and player movement, and then using a skill accordingly.

Yeah, that’s the goal. Make suggestions that are feasible to implement.

To implement your assortment of suggestions that you’ve stacked atop of one another, the game would have to have nearly every aspect redesigned, including camera behavior, hit detection, netcode, etc… At that point, you may as well just make an entirely new game.

Nalhadia – Kaineng

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Posted by: Swagg.9236

Swagg.9236

Yeah, that’s the goal. Make suggestions that are feasible to implement.

You don’t tell a guy with terminal cancer that he has the flu. GW2 deserves better than what it’s getting and the saddest part is that a lot of the mechanics that could fix it are already implemented in the game in many forms.

To implement your assortment of suggestions that you’ve stacked atop of one another, the game would have to have nearly every aspect redesigned, including camera behavior, hit detection, netcode, etc… At that point, you may as well just make an entirely new game.

My skill changes use mechanics that already exist in the game.
The changes that I’ve proposed here use mechanics that already exist in the game.
My upcoming trait changes also use mechanics that already exist in the game.
The Combat Mod (which is a potential solution for making ranged abilities more skillful and natural) literally had a toggle on-off button that a player could use while playing GW2.

Moreover, it’s not like your button commands wouldn’t require additional coding themselves: a way to internally save “last target selected” for any given player; a separate code for “this is my personal selected target”; a complete updating of the code that determines target priority (because every AI unit and all players all share the same priority it seems) so as to implement a button that attempts to only select enemy players."

You’re trying to take the easy way out and it’s not even the easy way out. Use your imagination and knowledge of the game. It’s very possible to improve GW2. You’re simply not working hard enough.

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Posted by: Sarrs.4831

Sarrs.4831

My skill changes use mechanics that already exist in the game.The changes that I’ve proposed here use mechanics that already exist in the game.
My upcoming trait changes also use mechanics that already exist in the game.

You’ve made quite a bit of guesswork and justification with your Stonesoul Strike. Sorry, I have to quite plainly disagree; there’s plenty of room for this skill to cause problems. Not balance or skill problems, just plain desync problems.

The Combat Mod (which is a potential solution for making ranged abilities more skillful and natural) literally had a toggle on-off button that a player could use while playing GW2.

Foisting a third-party method of playing the game onto everyone in the game is something that I don’t think would make many people happy- If they like playing it with Combat Mod, they already would be. Remind me how well it turned out for SWG when they decided to revamp their combat system (twice)?

Moreover, it’s not like your button commands wouldn’t require additional coding themselves: a way to internally save “last target selected” for any given player; a separate code for “this is my personal selected target”;

They might require additional coding, but I don’t think it’d require them to go back and rip up too much of their former stuff. I’m not a coder, let alone an ANet coder, so I can’t say for sure.

a complete updating of the code that determines target priority (because every AI unit and all players all share the same priority it seems) so as to implement a button that attempts to only select enemy players."

The game already does this. Players (and clones) already take preference over NPCs and minions.

You’re trying to take the easy way out and it’s not even the easy way out. Use your imagination and knowledge of the game. It’s very possible to improve GW2. You’re simply not working hard enough.

I’m not really that knowledgeable; I am neither a programmer nor a progamer. Half of the questions I direct to you aren’t GW2 related; most of the time I’m just asking you to actually post what the problem is, which is the most important thing to know when trying to create a solution.

Also, I don’t work for ANet. When I’m on payroll, I’ll work hard to fix the game. Until then, I’ll have fun with the game and offer feedback when I can. I am, like you, arguing in my spare time.

Nalhadia – Kaineng

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Posted by: Yamsandjams.3267

Yamsandjams.3267

Yes, but then that’s you just accepting a clumsy mechanic. Why just take it when there is a clear solution to the problem?

The only thing that’s really clumsy about it is that there’s no detarget key. If you want to detarget something, you either have to stand completely still and hit “esc” (hitting it while moving will simply stop your moving, at least during auto run), or click off on some unoccupied area of the screen.

If they just had a detarget key, you could always just press that to lose your target, then use your leap ability or whatnot where you wanted.

Making all these abilities into skill shots won’t suit this game well. Unlike most MOBAs, the pace of combat is generally faster, the battles can be much larger scale, movement altering abilities or teleports are much more prolific, the battlefield is more open (i.e. not really lane-based), terrain possesses more obstacles and levels of elevation, there is a universal dodge mechanic, and the visibility the camera provides makes accurate targeting more cumbersome (i.e. no top-down view).

Things like whirlwind work out because they are “dumb fire”. The attack occurs along the path and simply hits whatever is in its way. Things like leap of faith and heartseeker have a particular “end point” that they need to hit, meaning you need to get the exact spot the person is at in order for it to work properly. The game already has hit detection implemented such that a target will not be hit if they are not in the vicinity of the attack’s active frames, which I think is sufficient for the overall style of gameplay.

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Posted by: digiowl.9620

digiowl.9620

While gw2 was still being made, I think arenanet was playing with the idea of having a combat system without targeting. Unfortunately they decided against it. I can’t remember their reasoning

I suspect it is the same reason that Jon Peters gave on Reddit for not having the option to toggle mouse look, “it made the game too action focused”.

Except that i for one find the game right now to be a action game with a awkward control scheme, thanks to the number of AOE circles and such i have to keep dodging during most events. May as well give me mouse aim and turn the game into a third person shooter, so that i can circle strafe that big bad until the cows come home…

Seemingly they don’t want us to stand still during a fight, yet they don’t want to make a “action game”. They can’t have it both ways!

This post probably best defines the issue: GW2—with the movement available to players—plays sort of like a 3rd-person shooter, but the targeting system just gives everyone a clumsy aimbot that only works well on selected targets. Not only does this make it difficult to juggle multiple targets, but it also makes the combat unfair and not necessarily enjoyable or rewarding for either the attacker or the target.

In the end, the only thing that GW2’s targeting system truly accomplished was to lower this game’s skill ceiling to claustrophobic levels and frustrate the development of fluid combat and player control. The targeting system filters the vast majority of player skill out of the act of striking an opponent. Moreover, given that the vast majority of ranged damage (whether it be leaps, projectile-based attacks or even direct-to-target teleports) must pass through this filter in order to hit reliably and can only strike single targets.

This all combines to make juggling targets, making effective snap re-targeting decisions and capitalizing on positioning something that is not only far more difficult than it should be but also far less rewarding in general because the game typically plays itself for the operator from the moment that a ranged player selects a target.

The so-called “Combat Mod” (I’m not sure if it’s still in use or not) was an interesting development for GW2, because it not only gave the player a reliable means to snap target with single-target ranged attacks, but it also just gave the ranged player’s attacks a reliable path by fixing the camera positioning (the ranged player always knew where his attacks would go even if he didn’t have a selected target). However, despite those innovations, the Combat Mod did manage to make AoE-centric play-styles somewhat more frustrating to use because it fixed most attacks to a single lane directly in front of the player.

I find the Neverwinter targeting system interesting in all this. It uses what I want to call a “hot” crosshair. If you put it on top of a valid target it lights up. Start attacking and it locks to that target. It sometimes gets iffy when there are a mix of target sizes, but for the most part changing targets is as easy as letting go of the attack button for a moment, move the crosshair over and press the button again.

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Posted by: Vox Hollow.2736

Vox Hollow.2736

@ YamsandJam
Look into binding ‘Lock Autotarget’ for a deselect key.

@digiowl
Oh, I was pretty fond of Neverwinter’s system too.
Camera-centric targeting systems are a big hit with me anytime the combat has a decent pace to it.

This game, though. I’ve never seen a game try so hard to straddle the line between traditional mmorpg and action mmorpg control schemes. Granted, in practice this goes together about as well as peanut butter and motor oil. But for better or worse, that does seem to be the intent here.

(edited by Vox Hollow.2736)

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Posted by: insanemaniac.2456

insanemaniac.2456

skillshots make it easy to get deep, skilled combat with little extra effort from devs, but if lots of things were skillshots gw2 would be overly hard to play because the player is also burdened with ungainly camera + character control. if you look at primarily skillshot based games like fps’s and mobas, they all require about 1/3 as many controls as gw2 (generally no more than 4 common hotkeys and another ~6 uncommon hotkeys vs gw2’s 14+ common hotkeys and ~10 uncommon hotkeys). so for example moving while aiming a skillshot is very taxing because you just dont have enough fingers to be either unpredictable or finely tuned like you need to be in a high level pvp situation.

so it comes down to.. skillshots are bad when your mouse hand controls the camera and your keyboard hand controls character movement.

if you suddenly make a 10+ button gaming mouse / joystick / gamepad a system requirement, then you can think more about converting things to skillshots cuz as it is atm our mouse hand is relatively underburdened compared to our keyboard hand.

JQ: Rikkity
head here to discuss wvw without fear of infractions

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Posted by: digiowl.9620

digiowl.9620

Reminds me that early on I was wondering of all those that praised the GW2 combat system was either playing multi-signet builds or playing with multi-button rodents (or one of those gaming “keyboards” with thumb stick).

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Posted by: Swagg.9236

Swagg.9236

@ YamsandJam
Look into binding ‘Lock Autotarget’ for a deselect key.

@digiowl
Oh, I was pretty fond of Neverwinter’s system too.
Camera-centric targeting systems are a big hit with me anytime the combat has a decent pace to it.

This game, though. I’ve never seen a game try so hard to straddle the line between traditional mmorpg and action mmorpg control schemes. Granted, in practice this goes together about as well as peanut butter and motor oil. But for better or worse, that does seem to be the intent here.

Which is why I’m wondering why they seemed to move away from it (the game clearly possesses the code to make most attacks into skill shots) if that was indeed the case. I mean, a more camera-based or directional-targeting-reticle-based combat system would be a lot more natural in a lot of ways. This game plays like a third person FPS in a lot of ways except for the fact that everyone gets a clunky aimbot for ranged attacks because ANet thought that it would be a good design.

Moreover, it’s not even like that aimbot is really well-designed in the first place. We look at a profession like the Mesmer. If the Mesmer can’t select a target, that Mesmer is entirely worthless about 95% of the time. It’s a trash system. AND THEN ANet, in their infinite wisdom, added stealth! I mean, it’s absolutely bonkers! I can’t even believe this nonsense!

For real, the class that I play most in this game—if I play it at all—is staff Elementalist. Staff ele plays very naturally. It’s easy to determine where your damage is going because you can just target areas that you feel need damage or CC and not have to worry about maintaining or juggling selected targets all the time. Then I go and play anything else and the game’s awful targeting system just slaps me with the reality of its awful design. It’s not skillful, it’s not enjoyable to use and it’s not rewarding.

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Posted by: digiowl.9620

digiowl.9620

Dunno about the AOE targeting. All to often i feel the camera sits too low to the ground for AOEs to be practically targeted.

I actually avoid the engineers strongest ranged attack kit, grenades, for this reason, as i get no sense of depth while trying to do larger events. I end up spamming #1 and hoping that i see numbers pop from the big bad. But if anyone manages to drag said big bad in some direction i am SOL and have to try and guesstimate the mouse moments needed to once more hit the big bad.

If i could get the camera into a more top down view, this would be much less of a issue (and would avoid some long standing bugs related to ground targeting and the UI).

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Posted by: Swagg.9236

Swagg.9236

Dunno about the AOE targeting. All to often i feel the camera sits too low to the ground for AOEs to be practically targeted.

You probably play an asura. That said, ANet really should fix that race’s camera. In the betas, they normalized hit-boxes (because SOMEONE thought that it would be a fantastic idea to make asura hit-boxes actually smaller than humans/sylvari while norn and charr and bigger hitboxes that humans/sylvari). There shouldn’t really be a reason why they can’t normalize the camera positioning among races. The charr camera hangs in a nice place.

Moreover, when I mention the AoE attacks, these aren’t AoEs that you aim like one aims grenades or any other ranged, circular AoE. The play has to determine his/her attack direction first with a reticle, and then, after leaping/dashing in that direction, that skill’s subsequent chain skill is a very small AoE attack.

The secondary attack is an AoE simply because making it so eliminates the need for a selected target in order for it to be effective. The attack is small to minimize the chances of powerful leap/dash attacks from wrecking several people at the same time. That’s not to say that a player couldn’t do such a thing, but in the case that it happened, it would be something special and not something nonchalant as what most combat is now: select target, press buttons, target dies, leave.

I actually avoid the engineers strongest ranged attack kit, grenades, for this reason, as i get no sense of depth while trying to do larger events.

It’s not so much a sense of depth as it is a sense of timing. It’s a learned skill.

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Posted by: Vox Hollow.2736

Vox Hollow.2736

I get what you mean, digi.
But I tend to go the other way with it.

I think the problem is less lack of a bird’s eye view camera, and more the lack of aiming gameplay for single-target effects. (which is, conveniently, somewhat on-topic to the OP.)

So anytime they want to execute a feeling of ‘aiming’ in your gameplay, they have to rely on some form of ground targeted AOE. That tends to put alot of emphasis on watching the floor instead of watching your opponent, and generates alot of particle effects soup. The crazy amount of AOEs in this game is part of why it’s such a readability mess. And I’d sooner like to see that brought under control, than succumb to the temptation of implementing a bird’s eye view camera.