Guild Wars 2

Please do not nerf the tornado/meteor shower combo for eles. This is the one combo that makes ele’s hugely viable in WvW, and it is not overpowered. It is easy to dodge, considering the fact that meteors don’t always hit when enemy are inside the radius, and the tornado combo is actually very balanced. Although all skills cast prior to using tornado are made much more powerful, the equalizing factor is that you can’t cast anymore spells while in tornado form. This means based on the duration of previously cast spells, you are only getting at a maximum under 7 seconds of greater damage for all spells cast. After those 7 seconds (the duration of meteor, the longest possible cast), tornado is not very useful besides the extra stability. Please listen to the community on this one, as I know no one wants this change. It will hurt ele’s a lot more than it will balance the classes which I understand is the intended reasoning behind this nerf. If anyone else agrees, please comment to show Anet that you agree that tornado/meteor combo should not be nerfed.

Eles are “hugely viable” in wvw without meteornado cheese. I’d be perfectly happy if they simply made tornado useful on its own.

This bug fix was needed since introduction, and I’m really happy that it will be addressed in the upcoming feature patch.

Ele in WvW is perfectly fine, still even too useful/strong compared to other professions. Water fields, Huge range with meteor shower to clear siege equipment, CC hat actually hits everyone passing by, and is not limited to 5 persons…

FGS will still be a perfect chasing or escape weapon with little more damage for moving fight .Maybe anet should rework skill #2 and skill #5 a bit right now they are just boring to use (yes more aoe is what ele needs from elite lol)

Tornado on the other hand will be functionally almost useless in all game modes after patch . Its 3 “AA” skills are boring to use and they are like poor man’s hambow build with 180s cd in pvp. About wvw staying with staff skills seems much better .We dont have to disucss pve here anyway .

So add new skills to #4 #5 slot . Rework current skills. These are the way to balance .

Also anet mentioned they changed damage for tornado skills .And we don’t know details yet .Maybe we are worrying things too much .

Blix.8021:

Eles are “hugely viable” in wvw without meteornado cheese. I’d be perfectly happy if they simply made tornado useful on its own.

Sure….waterbot is viable.
In the game supposed to have no healers.

Is staff dps ele viable without meteornado?

The answer is already in any tier 1 server forum…. and its NO.
Its not even considered good with Meteornado and all commanders ask you to be a waterbot.

In the mean time necrobombs don t have to deal with being squishy, their aoe last forever, and they don t even get hit by retaliation.

But hey we are talking about a balance team that thinks thieves and warriors are fine in www…

So speaking of it is just time wasted.

P.S. GG to people slotting an elite with the only purpose of having a chance at fleeing.
Since you can’t disengage at reengage at will given the CD (the difference between ele and warrior+thieves is this) its totally useless to flee.

P.P.S: FGS for chasing is useless. to actually fight you have to drop it. at that point your cd is huge and your opponent will flee in 5 seconds.

So healer and support role are something you are unhappy with ?
And you called a weapon set with many useful skills as a waterbot (you cant deny no matter you are using dps or healing build that those skills are always great ,also with might stack. )
Using mesmer for veil +portal and ranger for healing spring , thats what bot means.

Yes i was told there would be no healer in this game.

And i don t like to be forced into one.

Mesmer at least is amongst top 3 roaming professions.
Also mesmer GS is one the 2 reasons why DPS ele is unviable
While in zerg has the same role as a water ele.

And mesmer got buffed…ele got nerfed.

Since when roaming is a official game mode ?

Almost every one plays this game well will tell best 3 classes for all game modes are
war/ele/guard. Only difference are you could add thief to pvp part , necro to wvw part.

“Also mesmer GS is one the 2 reasons why DPS ele is unviable”

no word for this really.

staff ele is healer+ support + extra aoe damage + amount of condition cleanse .

You dont want to play some spec of a class , this has nothing to do with good state of those classes.

You could suggest more build variety ?That’s fine ,but these complaints of yours are totally off the reality

The claim that heal and support are your only options is a load. Eles have great damage. Particularly AoE. One of the best for destroying siege on a wall, as well as damaging and inhibiting those attacking your walls.

LordByron.8369:

Sure….waterbot is viable. In the game supposed to have no healers.

Oh boy… Staff Ele provides combo fields, CC and a kittenload of damage — all in one spec. Your heals are minor in group fights; most healing potential is via blasting the water fields.

LordByron.8369:

Is staff dps ele viable without meteornado?

Yes, it is. Staff ele is versatile and provides much more than raw deeps to team fights (read above).

LordByron.8369:

Its not even considered good with Meteornado and all commanders ask you to be a waterbot.

Narrow-minded commanders and players don’t make a profession or certain builds bad.

LordByron.8369:

In the mean time necrobombs don t have to deal with being squishy, their aoe last forever, and they don t even get hit by retaliation.

What? “I don’t even…” Necros suffer from retal just like any other profession.
Also Necro bombs are called “bombs” for a reason. Staff eles can provide much more high sustained AoE damage (equals higher DPS, but feels less spiky than Well-Mancer), though.

LordByron.8369:

But hey we are talking about a balance team that thinks thieves and warriors are fine in www…

They’re both fine, except for some rare eviscerate-centered warrior builds. If you can’t deal with ’em, you need to practice more.

Sharknado is a stupid exploit and it’s great to see it being fixed. There are still many things to be fixed, but I think it’s a step in the right direction overall.

Yes, eles do provide alot. Although not while in tornado which is currently fine given Its function as a damage cooldown (sharknado). Removing that would be bad as the hammertrain meta shouldn’t be encouraged going forward. More range dps and more melee dps to counter them would make for a better experiwnce in WvW.

If it makes you happy. Lichform and wells will probably get the same treatment.

I don’t believe the current functionality with “meteornado” was ever intended in the first place, and I’m surprised they never really got rid of it earlier.

The only real issue in my mind is that the alternatives are rather unattractive. FGS is generally not a good fit for your average staff ele, particularly in zerg fights, unless maybe you’re just using it to let someone else pick up the second one and tossing yours. The elemental would maybe be ok if it didn’t completely explode into pieces in 2 seconds.

They didn’t give too many details on how the new activate abilities on the summons will work, so it’s possible one of those might be useful, especially if they generate combo fields.

But I don’t really think it will change much. The only thing I’ve found the meteornado thing useful for is breaking seige. Using it while fighting enemies isn’t always a good idea because you could be using other skills instead of simply juicing up your meteor shower.

Seriously, what am I going to use as an elite now? At least give us a useful elite for WvW use.

Johje Holan.4607:

Seriously, what am I going to use as an elite now? At least give us a useful elite for WvW use.

Only purpose FGS has is to run away from a lost battle. Tornado is not even worth a comment anymore… Great elites. :/

LordByron.8369:

Yes i was told there would be no healer in this game.

I am going to tell you this right now, but you probably already know this.

You are not doing anybody including yourself any favors but being intentionally dense and exaggerating the elementalist flaws. If you truly believe your own words the elementalist was already a healbot way before this nerf, since this combo can only be used every 150 seconds, so nothing really changes except you don’t have to rely on a gimmick.

Blix.8021:

Eles are “hugely viable” in wvw without meteornado cheese. I’d be perfectly happy if they simply made tornado useful on its own.

it allows counterplay by being very easy to spot and isnt even garanteed to hit everyone(thus making it not cheese), removing meteornado just dumbs down the game because you no longer have to see what you are standing in. They can remove meteornado when they give us an elite which is usable and dont just let us run fgs to oneshot thief which try to attack us

Moving away from staff balance and back to the original topic of the MS/Nado combo, I don’t mind the loss of this unintended feature. IMO, it needed to be done because you couldn’t buff meteor shower OR tornado until this combo was fixed. I just hope that both meteor shower and tornado skills stay useful.

I think MS is fine as is. If had to buff it, I would maybe put 25% more meteors and 25% less damage to emphasis the knockdown aspect and keep total damage the same while burst damage is lowered. It’s already a decent area denial and I think more knockdowns might make it a tad better in lieu of 3x damage.

Tornado needs to remove the 300% and 200% precision thing and just buff the base damage of the tornado (I assume that’s what they are doing already). In Addition, I’d like to see the tornado be reworked to that you can alter it’s functionality based on your needs. Maybe have an attunment based tornado. All would would deal the same base damage and knock back foes but fire mode would apply might to allies, Air mode would destroy projectiles, Earth would apply bleeding to foes and Water would heal allies. I dunno, my suggestion for a new tornado is admittedly bad but I’d like to see something similar to that.

“The elementalist’s cantrips are popular in all parts of the game, and in the interest of promoting build diversity, we’ll be using the feature pack as an opportunity to work on other types of utility skills. For example, the fire and air storms from the Glyph of Storms will now apply conditions of their own. In addition, we’ll rework some of the new grandmaster traits that currently don’t have enough of a payoff or are too difficult to use. Finally, we’ll be addressing the Tornado and Fiery Greatsword elite skills; we’ll make some usability improvements and tone down some of their unintended functionality.”
-Balance Changes in the September 2014 Feature Pack

The post is vague about what is being buffed but I hope that in between utility buffs, trait reworks and usability improvements, we will see improved tornado functionality as well as things that might make MS a tiny bit more worthwhile to appeal to those that just saw a large nerf.

TheflamingWolf.5861:

Blix.8021:

Eles are “hugely viable” in wvw without meteornado cheese. I’d be perfectly happy if they simply made tornado useful on its own.

it allows counterplay by being very easy to spot and isnt even garanteed to hit everyone(thus making it not cheese), removing meteornado just dumbs down the game because you no longer have to see what you are standing in. They can remove meteornado when they give us an elite which is usable and dont just let us run fgs to oneshot thief which try to attack us

Tornado should have been be improved but removing a gimmick and the game breaking feature of FGS is also important.

Maybe next year arenanet will improve tornado to not be terrible.

Rypo Falem.8913:

I think MS is fine as is. If had to buff it, I would maybe put 25% more meteors and 25% less damage to emphasis the knockdown aspect and keep total damage the same while burst damage is lowered. It’s already a decent area denial and I think more knockdowns might make it a tad better in lieu of 3x damage.

Meteor Shower doesn’t knock down. It did in GW1, and it was supposed to for GW2 (the elementalist profession page still shows it), but that aspect was removed before release.

Ha ha, whoops, I have been out of touch with elementalist for about a year. Sorry.

I think Tornado will be much much better with the new Lightning Rod. Wondering whether it works against targets with Stability, though.

Dear ANet, Can I have this Spammable Knockdown Meteorshower? Or at the very least, the Knockdown feature since I cannot Tornado bomb now…

As long as liche form gets the same treatment I can’t see how Eles can complain.

Necros are pretty sure Lich Form will get the same treatment. Honestly, most of us are cool with it if it does. It helps remove the one-shotting from Lich Form (Sigil of Ari+Fire+Chill of Death) as well as removing the well bombs (sorta).

It is happening to rampage. So it will be effecting eles, engineers, necros, and warriors all relatively equally. Not that warriors flock to rampage, but I know some engineers exploit rampage’s/tornado’s unreasonable power boost to exploit mine, mine field, BoB, acid elixir, and turret damage.

Was it confirmed to be happening to Rampage? The Warrior preview said nothing on that.

maeggle.6021:

LordByron.8369:

Sure….waterbot is viable. In the game supposed to have no healers.

Oh boy… Staff Ele provides combo fields, CC and a kittenload of damage — all in one spec. Your heals are minor in group fights; most healing potential is via blasting the water fields.

CC is so useful that nobody uses lightning rod…
Why?
BEcause guild raids have permastability.

I know the role of the ele is to cats the water field when commander says water.
Its exactly what i don t want to be.

LordByron.8369:

Its not even considered good with Meteornado and all commanders ask you to be a waterbot.

Narrow-minded commanders and players don’t make a profession or certain builds bad.

SFR is a T1 server… nobody on official forum sees ele as anything but a waterfield dispenser.

What? “I don’t even…” Necros suffer from retal just like any other profession.
Also Necro bombs are called “bombs” for a reason. Staff eles can provide much more high sustained AoE damage (equals higher DPS, but feels less spiky than Well-Mancer), though.

CONDITIONS doesn t trigger retal.
Retal works also on number of hits…reason why meteor storm and icebow 4 (also FGS for now) can kill an ele from retal in few seconds

war and thief
They’re both fine, except for some rare eviscerate-centered warrior builds. If you can’t deal with ’em, you need to practice more.

This is a lie
Don t need to discuss…
Torpedo warrior is also knew as IMMORTAL warrior
In thief forum you may read that only a bad thief dies in WWW

Anet said in the past you can t kill thieves but making them flee is a victory (and its obviously a wrong statement)

Sharknado is a stupid exploit and it’s great to see it being fixed. There are still many things to be fixed, but I think it’s a step in the right direction overall.

Its not an exploit.
You don t know what an exploit is.

What i really donìt like is the tone you use while being extremely vague and arguable.

As i said if you stand in a red circle for 4 seconds in PvE you get oneshot by almost anything.

Seems www players are considered way less reactive than pve players are if you think that is wrong……

No please as loyal ele i hate being have to use nado. But atm tornado itself became very usefull as well as fgs. Now we dont have any good elite to use tbh.

LordByron.8369:

What? “I don’t even…” Necros suffer from retal just like any other profession.
Also Necro bombs are called “bombs” for a reason. Staff eles can provide much more high sustained AoE damage (equals higher DPS, but feels less spiky than Well-Mancer), though.

CONDITIONS doesn t trigger retal.
Retal works also on number of hits…reason why meteor storm and icebow 4 (also FGS for now) can kill an ele from retal in few seconds

You do know that not all necromancer use condi builds? And of course retal also hits condi builds when they apply the conditions.

And those necro bombing builds aka well builds get hit by retal as much as meteor shower since wells pulse.

A 180 sec CD elite to recharge current attunement #5 skill would be a decent substitute.

LordByron.8369:

CC is so useful that nobody uses lightning rod…
Why?
BEcause guild raids have permastability.

No, nobody uses Lightning Rod because it’s at the end of Air Magic, and people going that far are going for Fresh Air bursts.

CC is HUGE in WvW. That’s why it’s known as the “Hammertrain.” You don’t use hammers for their damage (Guardian hammer 2 the exception) or mobility, you use them because locking down your opponent is more important than dishing out a lot of damage in ZvZ warfare. The damage will come.

Plus, a lot of zerg necros run Well of Corruption which has that nice ability to strip Stability.

Atherakhia.4086:

As long as liche form gets the same treatment I can’t see how Eles can complain.

Because Lich Form is actually useful without wells? And Plague is always useful?

Eles will now have no viable elite in large-scale WvW. FGS used to be used to PvD, but that won’t work anymore. Elementals die in about 2 seconds to AoEs. Tornado gives no increased survivability, so just upping the damage by a little won’t make people use it. It’s pretty much a huge “KILL THIS ONE HERE” sign. It was only useful for the 3s damage boost every few minutes. Period.

@thread – That said, I don’t think eles will be useless after this – that’s a pretty large exaggeration. We’re extremely useful for CCs, AoE bombing (yes, less effective without Tornado), and healing. It’s just a shame we won’t have any viable elites.

I agree with OP. Being able to turn into a tornado and hurl meteors is just plain epic! Instead of needing this, other classes should be given something similar in terms of epicness!

Anet, don’t kill the fun!

Mich.3981:

Please do not nerf the tornado/meteor shower combo for eles. This is the one combo that makes ele’s hugely viable in WvW, and it is not overpowered. It is easy to dodge, considering the fact that meteors don’t always hit when enemy are inside the radius, and the tornado combo is actually very balanced. Although all skills cast prior to using tornado are made much more powerful, the equalizing factor is that you can’t cast anymore spells while in tornado form. This means based on the duration of previously cast spells, you are only getting at a maximum under 7 seconds of greater damage for all spells cast. After those 7 seconds (the duration of meteor, the longest possible cast), tornado is not very useful besides the extra stability. Please listen to the community on this one, as I know no one wants this change. It will hurt ele’s a lot more than it will balance the classes which I understand is the intended reasoning behind this nerf. If anyone else agrees, please comment to show Anet that you agree that tornado/meteor combo should not be nerfed.

Even with no elite skill slot at all the Ele is highly viable anywhere.

That being said, I do think some changes were not very well thought of. Removing the dynamic power upgrade of the tornado is one thing but failing to understand why almost nobody would use it BUT for that feature is quite another.

As is, the tornado skill is almost unusable in WvW since it ask the squishiest profession to go into melee to be used to very non-elite efficiency while removing any active defense we had to our skill bar (in other word a big “kick me” sign in our back for zergs). That change should have come with something that could have make it viable as intended (a major boost in toughness would be a way I guess) instead of just removing the only incentive that it had. It’s not like the Meteornado was THAT powerful to begin with anyway since it was easy to avoid most of the time.

A applaud of them looking into stuff not used “as intended” but question the point of it all if it’s only for the shake of it and will kill the Ele elite skill slot (considering FGS nerf too).

LordByron.8369:

CC is so useful that nobody uses lightning rod…

The trait has nothing to do with the usefulness of crowd control abilities. As was already mentioned: both soft and hard CC are the most important mechanics in the current PvP and WvW meta game (not in 1vs1, but let’s not pretend that anything should be balanced for 1vs1), as it allows you to land your burst more safely. Especially in large scale combat, it’s neccessary to control your foes so that you can apply more pressure than them.

LordByron.8369:

BEcause guild raids have permastability.

Most balanced groups don’t run perma stability; For most group comps it’s a waste of potential. Current meta group builds don’t use any stability for casters and have ~18 seconds of AoE stability in the beginning, maybe some minor backup stability (Renewed Focus) and then roughly 50-60% stability plus some additional stability for warriors (if slotted), blocks and invulnerabilities in the meat ball.

If CC wasn’t as important as it is, you wouldn’t try to get a good uptime on stability and reduce condition pressure passively on melees.

LordByron.8369:

I know the role of the ele is to cats the water field when commander says water.

When I was playing staff ele, I was the one in charge to determine when to cast what and where. I was able to see when a water combo field was required, the driver or commander has other stuff to focus on. As I already said: Ele does not have to be just a water field dispenser, just like mesmers don’t have to be just veil bots. If you can’t see and use a profession’s potential, that’s your fault.

LordByron.8369:

SFR is a T1 server… nobody on official forum sees ele as anything but a waterfield dispenser.

I wouldn’t like to play with such stubborn people.

LordByron.8369:

CONDITIONS doesn t trigger retal.

Most skills which apply conditions, also deal some amount of damage -> retaliation does also affect condition builds.

LordByron.8369:

Retal works also on number of hits…reason why meteor storm and icebow 4 (also FGS for now) can kill an ele from retal in few seconds

Retaliation is a good boon. Just as you wait for stability to wear off, then using your hard-CC skill, you wait for retaliation to vanish before you cast your multi-hit-stuff, or you cancel the cast early if you cannot deal with the consequences.

LordByron.8369:

Torpedo warrior is also knew as IMMORTAL warrior
In thief forum you may read that only a bad thief dies in WWW

Warriors can be annoying, and some can run, but they are not overpowered by any means. Same goes for most thieves. Sure, you can disengage from most situations early, but this does not cap you points in Capture Point PvP nor does it win you stomps in WvW and GvG. If one commits to a fight, such builds are not very effective.

LordByron.8369:

Its not an exploit.
You don t know what an exploit is.

Unfortunately for you, I do.

I sincerely apologize if some of my writing offends you, but I want to have solid and constructive discussions, which (at least in my opinion) require solid PoV. I don’t see any vagueness in my previous post, though.

LordByron.8369:

As i said if you stand in a red circle for 4 seconds in PvE you get oneshot by almost anything.

We don’t talk about PvE but WvW and PvP balance. What you don’t want to acknowledge is, that there’s a huge difference between e.g. a lava font or well of suffering ticking for 1-3k per target (~8k AoE DPS), a meteor shower hitting for 2-4k (~12k AoE DPS) per target unbuffed, and 5-8k per target with the Tornado transformation (can sum up to 20k+ AoE DPS even with a balanced build for a full channel).

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

LordByron.8369:

CC is so useful that nobody uses lightning rod…
Why?
BEcause guild raids have permastability.

No, nobody uses Lightning Rod because it’s at the end of Air Magic, and people going that far are going for Fresh Air bursts.

CC is HUGE in WvW. That’s why it’s known as the “Hammertrain.” You don’t use hammers for their damage (Guardian hammer 2 the exception) or mobility, you use them because locking down your opponent is more important than dishing out a lot of damage in ZvZ warfare. The damage will come.

Plus, a lot of zerg necros run Well of Corruption which has that nice ability to strip Stability.

That because hammer train does lot of damage on low CD.
Exactly the opposite of a WWW ele.

And i would ask anet toprovide some numbers of the variety of players in WWW since its getting ridiculous expecially with these kinds of nerfs.

@maeggle
Despite your assuption that war is not OP tells alone how wrong you are.
I’ll just suggest you to learn what risk/reward is:

To deal massive damage you have to:
Be full dps (with dps utility).
Already have done a rotation to maximize your boons
Cast a self rooting skill with a precast of almost 4 seconds
Add another 1 second cast skill.
Your target should be DPS and sleeping for 6 seconds.

As i said no PvE player would fall for that but seems as i said that www is for early beginner players if this is unacceptable.
The state of the art is the hammertrain, the staff 11111 guardians, and stealth macro thieves i suppose.

Basically a RTS game for commanders that have to give orders to a zerg of bots.

LordByron.8369:

Despite your assuption that war is not OP tells alone how wrong you are.
I’ll just suggest you to learn what risk/reward is:

To deal massive damage you have to:
Be full dps (with dps utility).
Already have done a rotation to maximize your boons
Cast a self rooting skill with a precast of almost 4 seconds
Add another 1 second cast skill.
Your target should be DPS and sleeping for 6 seconds.

I’m fully aware of the things which sometimes appear to be overpowered on warrior. It’s not their built in tankiness, nor is it their healing signet combined with Adrenal Health and Dogged March’s regeneration, nor is it their ability to shrug off conditions pretty easily. Those are really all just neccessary to be able to compete with competent enemies. What’s really overpowered on warriors is the sword burst skill (stupidly long root and easy application via cancelling the channel) and the hammer #3 because of the long cripple. Also eviscerate builds are annoying, but we’ll see how they’ll fare after the next feature patch.

Staff eles are pretty easy to play effectively as well, and they even have better group support than most warriors due to their ranged CC abilities and the many combo fields (not only water). It only gets more complex when you either run a suboptimal build, have no semi-decent group around or simply you aren’t able to move on the battle field.

The damage with Meteor + Tornado is just stupidly high, and as stated before is an exploit. Your impact on fights as an ele is already very strong if played correctly. On lower skill levels it seems as if you have to put much more effort into it than a warrior, and that’s something I’d sign any time. But it would be very wrong to not fix exploits and balance for higher tier gameplay. Most warrior builds have low entry barriers and a low skill ceiling, whereas getting into eles can be bothersome and unrewarding at first, but also feels more rewarding (while it’s still pretty easy to pull of great combos even without much experience). Also with more and more experience there’s all this stuff which appeared to be overpowered at first, and then just becomes stupidly easy to deal with later on while you recognize that other stuff is really broken, which you did not consider before; But only if we don’t get stuck in the all-too-easy loop of “x OP because of Y” without considering the opponents’ weaknesses and strengths first.

LordByron.8369:

The state of the art is the hammertrain, the staff 11111 guardians, and stealth macro thieves i suppose.

The hammer train meta is sooo 2013… We mostly see GWEN Split & Nuke atm in large scale combat (just watch some of the more “successful” guild groups for examples – most run with more than 50% ranged / peripheral and only ~25-30% hammers in their melee ball; most CC is applied by staff-skills), and boon share in small scale fights (most groups only run one hammer, and this one is carried by the single warrior)
Also neither do thieves need macros for stealth, nor is it any “state of the art” gameplay which happens outside of your cognition, I think. Roaming-wise I see a huge influx of boon hate and lockdown builds, as well as some condi spam builds and the rare full zerker tryhards (mostly rangers, mesmers and warriors).

Stealth-reliant thieves get rarer and rarer, and only become annoying when you experience latencies, are on cooldowns or just run a build which is not good against such thieves (remember, though, that this game is built around team play).

Maeggle learn what an exploit is.
And no you don t know what is OP on a warrior nor on a thief.

You possibly never left your 80 zerg Group from what you say so you don t have a clear idea on what smaller groups are played like.

a VIABLE ele with meteornado does no more than 6000.
a really risky ele gets to 8000.
If you go higher you are playing a PvE build on upscaled targets.

Also if you want to learn what a macro thief is sometimes try to capture a bloodlust.
You might meet also fresh air macro eles.

As i said you don t roam a lot for sure… and you also seems to have issues avoiding a 4,75 second cast skill…..

I’will remember that to any WWW player saying anything against PvE players… even an open world boss is more skill based at this point.

This is another victory for blobbers…. but this time server performance is not an excuse.

If the Hammertrain were chosen for damage, and not CC, it would have been the Greatsword train, since on both Guardians and Warriors, the Greatsword deals more damage than the Hammer.

So no, CC is HUGE. That said, Greatsword Guardians are quite acceptable for frontlines because of Binding Blade.

LordByron.8369:

As i said you don t roam a lot for sure…

If you only knew…

I don’t think this discussion will become any more productive, so I’ll leave you be in your bubble of self comfort. Godspeed!

maeggle.6021:

LordByron.8369:

As i said you don t roam a lot for sure…

If you only knew…

I don’t think this discussion will become any more productive, so I’ll leave you be in your bubble of self comfort. Godspeed!

This!
Nobody like to loose his shiny toy….and forget quickly in which state other professions are.
I really feel your expression summarize 90% of state of mind of the people : “concerned only by their bubble of self comfort”
True on this forum…and true in real life…unfortunately.

Taking it to personal when discussing balance is for sure productive…

Also something we never seen.

I could copypaste the answers i received when they nerfed RTL+cantrips to eles…
Until pax was full of answers like yours.