Guild Wars 2

Why not put in a skill that provides detect for all professions instead of introducing that 4-second Reveal that breaks tempo? Like, I don’t play Thief but, good god A-net should be merciful to these cute shady angels!

Reinn.7436:

Why not put in a skill that provides detect for all professions instead of introducing that 4-second Reveal that breaks tempo? Like, I don’t play Thief but, good god A-net should be merciful to these cute shady angels!

Does this mean your okay with the 6s reveals since you specified the 4s ones?

I see the problem more in the generally time of stealth and reveal.

Stealth is just too short to make it more than a simple spamskill and reveal is too short for the others to give them enough time to attack them, before they are stealth again. (The same for Mesmer)
Inclusive that their whole design around this mechanic make them really weak without it.

Stealth should be more an utility and not replace their whole deffense.

dancingmonkey.4902:

Reinn.7436:

Why not put in a skill that provides detect for all professions instead of introducing that 4-second Reveal that breaks tempo? Like, I don’t play Thief but, good god A-net should be merciful to these cute shady angels!

Does this mean your okay with the 6s reveals since you specified the 4s ones?

Holy kitty, no.

Black Teagan.9215:

I see the problem more in the generally time of stealth and reveal.

Stealth is just too short to make it more than a simple spamskill and reveal is too short for the others to give them enough time to attack them, before they are stealth again. (The same for Mesmer)
Inclusive that their whole design around this mechanic make them really weak without it.

Stealth should be more an utility and not replace their whole deffense.

You have a point there, assuming that a Thief is fighting someone from the front, the stealth option is too short for them to stealth up and crawl to the back for a backstab.

But I don’t know, Reveal is like, too much to handle. Reveal is okay if there’s a trait that can grant a protection or something after the hitting someone while on stealth.

It would be nice if professions each had a skill or two that was AoE and would remove stealth (but not apply Revealed!) from those hit. Would help up the play-counterplay of stealth, but wouldn’t completely shut out stealth-reliant builds for a period.

Nah, thief is already in a not very good spot, it doesn’t need to be countered more.

Frenk.5917:

Nah, thief is already in a not very good spot, it doesn’t need to be countered more.

Well, I’m speaking actually for Thieves out there than against them. The previous comment is actually good: a ground-target AoE that removes stealth for a short duration is much better since there is a metagame involved, rather than giving Thieves/Mesmers the Revealed debuff which ridiculously breaks the tempo of their game.

If you have an innovative approach to reworking the stealth mechanic post them here, I would love to hear from you.

Detection would have been a much better mechanic, frankly. Reveal 100% shuts down an entire traitline AND sneak attacks which, honestly, is a bit too harsh on the thief and is exactly why only 2 classes have access to it and only on one skill each, because it’s OP as kitten.

It would be better to make many more classes have much more access to skills which allowed them to see invis opponents, but without actually pulling them out of the stealth. That way thieves could still use their sneak attacks (which is where 90% of their damage comes from) and their stealth traits, but people could have a fair chance of fighting back as well, instead of now where either the thief have stealth at will and have a rediculous advantage, or an Engi/Ranger can reveal them and completely hardcounter their entire build… neither of which is a good situation.

Oh well.. it wasn’t to be.

Reveal, eh? So then they hit my pet/illusion and re-stealth? Using a single weapon skill to nullify the utility skill I just used?

My only problem with stealth is if they miss or are blocked/dodged/evaded … it doesn’t break stealth.

The only other problem is the complete lack of tells for attacks from stealth … but that isn’t restricted to just stealth skills. Mesmer Mantras are another culprit there. There are plenty of others as well.

Skills should have tells so they can be reacted to … it opens the doors for more counterplay.

Sebrent.3625:

Reveal, eh? So then they hit my pet/illusion and re-stealth? Using a single weapon skill to nullify the utility skill I just used?

My only problem with stealth is if they miss or are blocked/dodged/evaded … it doesn’t break stealth.

The only other problem is the complete lack of tells for attacks from stealth … but that isn’t restricted to just stealth skills. Mesmer Mantras are another culprit there. There are plenty of others as well.

Skills should have tells so they can be reacted to … it opens the doors for more counterplay.

That’s why with the ‘Detect’ skill that hits AoE you give yourself an incentive to see the hell out of them for X duration even if they abuse their stealth skill by hitting your pets/illusions continuously. The incentive that they will have is that what counters their stealth is now a skill, rather than an anti-stealth that activates upon dealing damage.

You suggesting is worse than current reveal, It would be better if engi and ranger could see the thief in steath like when you party with an enemy.

The anti-stealth mechanic is still open for amendments of course. We haven’t laid down the actual framework on how it should work, but the proposed detect function is much more better since it doesn’t shut down an entire build (refrain from someone’s post above).

If you have a better proposal, post it in here so that all of us can contribute.

Reinn.7436:

. We haven’t laid down the actual framework on how it should work

Personally, I think it “should” work just as it does now.

If being unable to stealth for 6 seconds “breaks” a build … that build is the problem.

There are plenty of classes that can become immune for longer than that.

Black Teagan.9215:

I see the problem more in the generally time of stealth and reveal.

Stealth is just too short to make it more than a simple spamskill and reveal is too short for the others to give them enough time to attack them, before they are stealth again. (The same for Mesmer)
Inclusive that their whole design around this mechanic make them really weak without it.

Stealth should be more an utility and not replace their whole deffense.

I’ve always wanted a longer stealth in turn for a longer reveal. At the same time, it just makes combat against such classes feel like even more of a waiting game which is already kittening off a bunch of players.

If they made stealth base generally 4 seconds and stealth increasing traits (meld with shadows and PU) to add 2 seconds in exchange of on stealth traits to be rebalanced to proc during reveal rather than stealth. Some traits would remain during stealth but move the stronger ones to on reveal and rebalance them around their shorter duration. Lastly, increase reveal to 5 seconds so there is less waiting since their defense will either come from breaking LoS or engauging to proc trait effects.

Gives more decision on how to use stealth and would hopefully make stealth dependency less important. How they incorporate those certain traits to proc on reveal as opposed to stealth would be tricky but not impossible.

Sebrent.3625:

If being unable to stealth for 6 seconds “breaks” a build … that build is the problem.

There are plenty of classes that can become immune for longer than that.

True. But the problem is, not all class revolves around the theme of ‘hiding’ for safety. And with the ‘Reveal’ function, the Thief class is the most affected by this since that class is the most reliant of the stealth mechanic. If ‘Reveal’ must be applied, then stealth should be reworked by ANet as a mere utility skill than a survivability mechanic that has been given to them.

Reinn.7436:

Sebrent.3625:

If being unable to stealth for 6 seconds “breaks” a build … that build is the problem.

There are plenty of classes that can become immune for longer than that.

True. But the problem is, not all class revolves around the theme of ‘hiding’ for safety. And with the ‘Reveal’ function, the Thief class is the most affected by this since that class is the most reliant of the stealth mechanic. If ‘Reveal’ must be applied, then stealth should be reworked by ANet as a mere utility skill than a survivability mechanic that has been given to them.

If you think that a 6 secs reveal breaks a build/traitline, then guess what. SA thieves break pretty much every class from going berserker.

Thieves should be glad they got away with stealth abuse for nearly 2 years now, and be also glad, only 2 classes have a 6 seconds reveal on relatively long cooldowns.

/thread

^ Haha, right! SA build is like one of the best, if not, only the best build a PvP Thief can go for these days. Other builds are, well… trash.

@NinjaEd

4 (or 6) secs are a little too short I think.
I find a base time of 5 secs + 3 secs with Meld with Shadows fits better.
+3 secs with Meld with Shadows for the simple reason that thieves should be a little more special.

But reveal should run between 8 and 10 secs, after stealth.
As compensation stealth could then changed to a profession mechanic.

I kind of like the way revealed works now. There’s a level of skill needed on part of the user to time it right. If you use it too soon then you’re not getting your money’s worth, and if you use it too late it just won’t go off as the enemy is already hiding.

You need to watch the thief and wait for the moment when the thief’s initiative is low and they are on the defensive, then hit revealed and unload while they are prone.

Black Teagan.9215:

@NinjaEd

4 (or 6) secs are a little too short I think.
I find a base time of 5 secs + 3 secs with Meld with Shadows fits better.
+3 secs with Meld with Shadows for the simple reason that thieves should be a little more special.

But reveal should run between 8 and 10 secs, after stealth.
As compensation stealth could then changed to a profession mechanic.

Could work, but I wouldn’t go as harsh as 10 seconds or even 8. I’d be ok with 6 seconds of reveal but they’d have to compensate the stealth related traits for being harder to obtain and for being shorter in effect.

[Stealth function changed]
- stealth base now 4 seconds. Stealth increasing effects from traits increased to 2 seconds from 1. This will not effect skills already above 4 seconds. Combo skills (leap+smoke and blast+smoke) will also be increased to 4 seconds.

-Revealed now lasts 6 seconds naturally, with the 2 skills (sic em and utility goggles) still providing 6 seconds. Revealed will NOT stack in duration what so ever, will only refresh.

[Select traits rebalanced to function on revealed]

(Thief)
-Shadow Protector will grant 10 seconds of regeneration to allies on application. When regeneration is applied through this trait, the ICD starts at 10 seconds.

-Shadow’s Embrace will remove 1 condition every 3 seconds you are effected by reveal with 1 condition removed upon stealth.

-Shadow’s Rejuvenation will continue to regen upon stealth for only up to 4 seconds. Healing base increased to 439(150%). Healing power scale increased to 0.20.

-Cloaked In shadows now applies 2 seconds of blind on stealth and 2 seconds on reveal.

-Fleet shadow now applies during reveal.

Black Teagan.9215:

I see the problem more in the generally time of stealth and reveal.

Stealth is just too short to make it more than a simple spamskill and reveal is too short for the others to give them enough time to attack them, before they are stealth again. (The same for Mesmer)
Inclusive that their whole design around this mechanic make them really weak without it.

Stealth should be more an utility and not replace their whole deffense.

Except it isnt, evades are (not to mention the fact that thief is the only profession which gets 4 (6 with energy) dodges instead of 2 (3) for 15 points which are in a quite strong dps (well initiative, but translates into the same thing) line AND are the only profession which has a guaranteed teleport and/or evade on every set which isnt double pistols (which need a soft rework either way, being bipolar kinda like older warrior rifle).

While running revealed training on a low-stealth build, sic’em and the goggle utility are just too great to be true. 6 seconds of +200 power, yay!

Learn to stop relying on clutch like shadow art and actually start learning the game, you really think anet was gonna let u perma stealth with impunity inside enemy zerg and castles all the time?

Reinn.7436:

Why not put in a skill that provides detect for all professions instead of introducing that 4-second Reveal that breaks tempo? Like, I don’t play Thief but, good god A-net should be merciful to these cute shady angels!

…. I really don’t like how that sounds it’s late could be me but are you suggesting that a theif be able to restealth attack restealth and repeat. how would you defend against that. that would be just broken OP. I’m all for showing thieves love but no not like that.

Lifestealer.4910:

Learn to stop relying on clutch like shadow art and actually start learning the game, you really think anet was gonna let u perma stealth with impunity inside enemy zerg and castles all the time?

and then you realize that main dmg for dagger builds comes from backstab which requires stealth….

imagine if thieves could actually steal weapon from enemies for 6 sec rendering enemy unable to use weapon skills for 6 sec… would you also say l2p?

the problem is not even SA, the problem is instant stackable revealed debuff that locks out defensive AND offensive aspect of the class….

Cynz.9437:

Lifestealer.4910:

Learn to stop relying on clutch like shadow art and actually start learning the game, you really think anet was gonna let u perma stealth with impunity inside enemy zerg and castles all the time?

and then you realize that main dmg for dagger builds comes from backstab which requires stealth….

imagine if thieves could actually steal weapon from enemies for 6 sec rendering enemy unable to use weapon skills for 6 sec… would you also say l2p?

the problem is not even SA, the problem is instant stackable revealed debuff that locks out defensive AND offensive aspect of the class….

The issue is whether you have SA or not, if you have 3 people jump you can still escape easily due to spammable stealth, now it simply makes it so you have to pay for it if you jump into 3 people just like all other classes.

Also only d/d thief relies on backstab and that build is pretty dead so it doesn’t really affect thieves. Since thiefs usually go d/p or s/d or p/d (if wvw)

Reinn.7436:

Frenk.5917:

Nah, thief is already in a not very good spot, it doesn’t need to be countered more.

Well, I’m speaking actually for Thieves out there than against them. The previous comment is actually good: a ground-target AoE that removes stealth for a short duration is much better since there is a metagame involved, rather than giving Thieves/Mesmers the Revealed debuff which ridiculously breaks the tempo of their game.

If you have an innovative approach to reworking the stealth mechanic post them here, I would love to hear from you.

I shall quote part of my post from other thread.

Jayden Ennok.3687:

5. The whole reveal issue would be solved if Anet separated actual reveal from losing invisibility, ie, thief deals dmg from stealth so he gets revealed with same effects as now. The current reveal skills rangers/engies have would apply “visibility debuff” which wouldn’t remove any stealth associated effects from thief (condi cleanse, stealth weapon skills, heals etc). Even if the duration on those skills would be increased, it wouldn’t be such a hard counter to thief as it is now and it would give other classes the tools to deal with what they QQ so much about, not seeing an enemy.

As long as any reveal skills or traps apply actual reveal instead of removing invisibility, they will be a hard counter to thieves.

imo, the problem with “Detect” is that it only really would be a game changer if there was long duration stealth with limited in-combat restealthing (eg, detect works in every other MMO because every other MMO takes the classic approach to stealth and not the GW2 unlimited in-combat restealth nonsense).

In GW2, where the opponent can re-stealth at anytime, being detected is not a punishment, especially if it doesnt apply a reveal. You can just stealth again immediately. Additionally, if its GTAE, the odds that you will even hit the target with Detect are hilariously low. Ontop of that, denying the stealth entirely is important because of the benefits stealth provides (condi removal, regen and damage reduction to thieves, prot, regen, aegis to mesmers). If you detect a PU mesmer he still got his boons and thats mostly what matters; same for a thief who still gets to score his condi clear. It hurts the thief a little more because it denies a sneak attack, but the thief is going to have a much easier time gaining stealth again than the memser.

In its current state, few if any Engineers are running reveal, simply because it doesnt fit into a turret build, it doesnt fit in with a 2 kit+rocket boots build, and it doesnt fit with a 3 kit build. A small amount of rangers are running sic ’em (almost all rangers prefer some combination of signets and survival utils instead) and in combination with channels tracking stealth you have one class that, if they take a specific utility is a pretty effective stealth counter. That seems like a good thing to have.

Cynz.9437:

imagine if thieves could actually steal weapon from enemies for 6 sec rendering enemy unable to use weapon skills for 6 sec… would you also say l2p?

the problem is not even SA, the problem is instant stackable revealed debuff that locks out defensive AND offensive aspect of the class….

That’s a horrible analogy.

Without my weapon, I can’t use my 5 weapon skills. Without stealth, a thief still has their 5 weapon skills. Last I checked, 5 > 0.

Sebrent.3625:

Cynz.9437:

imagine if thieves could actually steal weapon from enemies for 6 sec rendering enemy unable to use weapon skills for 6 sec… would you also say l2p?

the problem is not even SA, the problem is instant stackable revealed debuff that locks out defensive AND offensive aspect of the class….

That’s a horrible analogy.

Without my weapon, I can’t use my 5 weapon skills. Without stealth, a thief still has their 5 weapon skills. Last I checked, 5 > 0.

N o, it is not horrible analogy… All thief weapon skills kept really weak compared to other classes weapon skill because of their spammy nature, quite few of them don’t even do much themself unless you combine them.

My point is that if your main dmg AND surivival was locked out by instant 2000 range skill that is stackable too, would you also tell people l2p?

I am all up for counterplay but it shouldn’t be so devastating and mindless.

I mean by that logic thieves should be able to lock out guardians heals, engi kits etc. and call it “counterplay”.

Stealth is reason why thieves don’t have stability, protection, invulnerability, any good heals etc…. if thief can’t use stealth anymore, what was the point of locking out the class of all those things?

Stealth doesn’t prevent any dmg, there are countless ways to prevent thief from going into stealth…

Stealth is actually huge disadvantage in pvp since you can’t hold/cap point because of it… if you forced thief into stealth you already won the fight and gained points for your team.

If stealth is issue in wvw, there are stealth traps… besides main objective of wvw is to hold towers, keeps etc. so what, if that thief hit his emergency button and ran away? It is not like he gonna take keep or tower from your server…. and franky warriors are actually better at running away than thieves in wvw yet i don’t see people complaining about it, at least not as much “qq thief went in stealth ands got away”.

I think OP suggestion is not so bad. Althrough call me biased and what not, but i do not see why in the actually bad state as thieves are right now there is need for such instant “you can’t use condi cleanise, you can’t do dmg, you can’t heal yourself, you can’t have defensives” 2000 range skill.

To those of you complaining that you can now be locked out of your profession mechanic, I just wanted to point out that “stealth” is not your profession mechanic.

For thieves ‘Steal’ is the main mechanic, along with your ‘Duel Wield’ skill. Yes you have a special extra skill when in stealth, but when ‘revealed’ you still have access to the majority of what makes your special. Same goes for stealth build Mesmers, you still have your clones.

As a Ranger, I can be totally locked out on my mechanic for up to 60 seconds if the zerg kills both my pets. This can totally lock out several utility skills from functioning at all. 6 seconds of no stealth is nothing in comparison to 60 seconds without pets.

Hey genius, you can lock out other people’s skills… daze them.

Additionally, revealed is not stackable. It can only be refreshed … which would mean that you were being targeted by 2+ Rangers/Engineers that each have their particular utility … ones that aren’t taken commonly.

The fact that you think Thief skills are “weaker because they are spammy” is laughable. Come back with some numbers if you wish to continue to argue this.

The fact that you don’t think Thieves have any good heals is also ridiculous.

Stealth doesn’t prevent damage, but it definitely makes it harder for several weapons to do damage to the thief … try to hit a stealthed thief with a Ranger shortbow, Mesmer staff, etc. They can blindly fire one ability and that’s it … and there are plenty of other weapons just like that.

You are correct that you can’t hold/contest/capture a point while stealthed. But that doesn’t mean much if the thief kills you … or is just their team’s roamer.

If you think a Thief’s only defense is stealth … the impression you’re giving … then perhaps you should look at the acrobatics traitline as well as the built-in evades on various Thief weapon skills. Oh, and blind.

I’m sensing a great deal of l2p.

Kaz is quite correct. Come back when your class has a mechanic that can be continuously locked out for 60s due to the mechanics of the game.

Sebrent.3625:

Hey genius, you can lock out other people’s skills… daze them.

Additionally, revealed is not stackable. It can only be refreshed … which would mean that you were being targeted by 2+ Rangers/Engineers that each have their particular utility … ones that aren’t taken commonly.

The fact that you think Thief skills are “weaker because they are spammy” is laughable. Come back with some numbers if you wish to continue to argue this.

The fact that you don’t think Thieves have any good heals is also ridiculous.

Stealth doesn’t prevent damage, but it definitely makes it harder for several weapons to do damage to the thief … try to hit a stealthed thief with a Ranger shortbow, Mesmer staff, etc. They can blindly fire one ability and that’s it … and there are plenty of other weapons just like that.

You are correct that you can’t hold/contest/capture a point while stealthed. But that doesn’t mean much if the thief kills you … or is just their team’s roamer.

If you think a Thief’s only defense is stealth … the impression you’re giving … then perhaps you should look at the acrobatics traitline as well as the built-in evades on various Thief weapon skills. Oh, and blind.

I’m sensing a great deal of l2p.

---

Kaz is quite correct. Come back when your class has a mechanic that can be continuously locked out for 60s due to the mechanics of the game.

Hey genius, daze can be overcome by stun breaks and stability, revealed not.

Actually it IS pretty common to have engis and rangers in pvp now, if you didn’t notice yet. It is also pretty common to have 5 engi teams even.

Thief skills ARE weaker by nature because of their spammy nature. What is dagger main dmg? Backstab, 1 skill. Rest is rather utility or set up for backstab.

What is main dmg from sword? AA and LS, rest is once again utlity and set up for dmg.

I am not even gonna mention any ranged sets thieves have because those are either complete joke or pure utility sets.

Why don’t YOU prove me with numbers how thief weapon are not weak outside of combinations?

You really going to argue that thieves don’t have best heals out there? I am not saying they are bad but they are definitely not THAT great. Thieves were and never will be famous for their heals. It is speciality of guardians and eles for reason. I am not saying that thief heals or rather healing capability need buffs but my point is stealth is one of the reasons why thief heals are not like guard heals for example.

Exactly my point, stealth IS defensive mechanics hence why thieves don’t have invul, block and such. Completely denying stealth to thief is equal to denying heal/aegis to guardians.

Exactly, thief is there to kill someone but they can’t hold nor cap points (unless point is empty) hence why stealth is disadvantage. Also, you saying it like you can’t kill thief which is unrealistic. Any other class besides mesmer maybe can actually stay and keep point while fighting thief and even kill them, thieves can’t do the same (besides old s/d build).

I am not saying stealth is their only mechanics but thieves do lack many things because they have stealth. You can’t go evade AND stealth based build at the same time (unless you learned how to make 6/6/6/6/6 and use of 3 weapons sets possible). I am talking here about dagger based build which relies on stealth for dmg and survival. Also, bringing up blind is laughable considering how you can sit in BP w/o any punishment now.

As far as evade build goes, anyone knows it is unsuable now due to LS changes and steal/port bugs.

If you think thieves should “l2p” then please tell me, oh master what should they do in the time of 18 sec revealed (yes, it is a thing now, at least in pvp) while being bombed by condis and cc and unable to use their main dmg source.

@Kaz: yes, steal is class mechanics which ironically is absolutely useless (besides moblity) unless you trait for steal.

If you daze a channeled ability, stunbreak won’t do a thing … good call. You’re so smart ;-)

Stability on a Ranger is from two sources:

• Signet of the Wild (60s cd)
• Rampage as One (120s cd)

Yeah, they’ll have stability all the time …
and it can’t be removed at all … especially not by a Thief …

Weapon skills … here we go,
Let’s look at Dagger since you’re talking about backstab …
We’ll use gw2skills for ease …

Thief Dagger Chain: 190/289/289 at 0.25 each … 2nd attack also gives endurance while third attack inflicts poison.

Ranger Greatsword AA Chain at 205/205/269 at 0.5/0.5/0.75 … only an evade on 3rd hit

Ranger Longbow AA at 329/285/249 every 0.75s

Yeah … your AA is bad eyeroll
—-
Thief Heartseeker 679/510/340 depending on target’s hp (25%/50%/otherwise) … 3 initiative … equal to 3s cooldown

Ranger Maul … 598 on a 6s cooldown

Ranger Rapid Fire … 1,340 on 10s cooldown with a 2.5s channel time … 12.5s (10.5 traited)

Yep, you do less but have 1/2 to less than 1/3 the cooldown and if used that many times your damage exceeds even when your target isn’t at <50% or <25% health.

Once your target is at that range, Heartseeker obliterates these other abilities … and Thieves are reknowned for their burst so it isn’t hard to get someone <50% … especially someone playing a glassy build … like is quite common right now.

Maul and Rapid Fire also doesn’t double as a closer and escape tool.
—-
Thief Shadowshot 425 damage and blind for 4 initiative … effective 4s cooldown. It’s also a closer and unblockable.

Thief Deathblossom 207 damage and up to 1,275 damage from bleeds. It’s also an evade and whirl finisher. Also 4 initiative … effective 4s cooldown.

Ranger Swoop is 374 damage, evades at the end, and has a 12s cooldown.

Ranger Hunter’s Shot is 142 and stealths … but only if it hits. It isn’t unblockable. It has a 12s cooldown.

Closest is swoop and Shadowshot. Shadowshot does more damage, blinds, and is unblockable. It can also be used more often. Yep … much worse, lol.

Thief Dancing Dagger does 175 damage and cripples for 3 initiative … effective 3s cooldown.

Thief Headshot does 85 and is a Daze for 4 initiative … effective 4s cooldown.

Ranger Counterattack is a block that can do 486 … 15s cooldown

Ranger Crippling Throw is a throw that does 374 and cripples … 15s cooldown (it’s the 2nd button press of Counterattack)

Ranger Point Blank Shot does 285 damage and knocks back a target 400 to 600 depending on how close they were.

This is apples and oranges. The closest is point blank versus the daze. Given that the Daze is more readily available … sure it fits the “weaker because spammable” … but it’d be quite OP to be a single spammable daze that is doing very good damage … every 4 or less seconds.
—-
Thief Cloak and Dagger does 340 for 6 initiative and Stealths you … synergizes stupidly well with several traits that remove conditions, heal, give might, etc.

Thief Black Powder does 85 for 6 initiative but creates a smoke field that pulses blind and can be combo’d with.

Ranger Hilt Bash does 187 on a 25s cooldown and is a daze (stun from behind).

Ranger Barrage is an AOE that does 1,704 and cripples over 12 hits (retal hurts!) that take 2.25s and it has a 30s cooldown.

Apples to Oranges again here. Not much to compare. Most people don’t eat the whole barrage as they’re smart enough to move out of it … often dodging, teleporting, etc.

If you want to compare Hilt Bash to your Headshot, it does more damage, but has an immensely higher cooldown.
——

Looking at this, yeah, you have some utility abilities … just like Ranger.
Your damage is only “weak because it’s spammable” if you’re using heartseeker on an opponent that is above 50% hp in which case it is comparable to rapid fire and maul. Once below 50%, it’s superior.

Your arguments here are still weak. I’ll proceed to the heals next … guardians and eles are the best, eh?

Sebrent.3625:

Ranger Rapid Fire … 1,340 on 10s cooldown with a 2.5s channel time … 12.5s (10.5 traited)

Yep, you do less but have 1/2 to less than 1/3 the cooldown and if used that many times your damage exceeds even when your target isn’t at <50% or <25% health.

Once your target is at that range, Heartseeker obliterates these other abilities … and Thieves are reknowned for their burst so it isn’t hard to get someone <50% … especially someone playing a glassy build … like is quite common right now.

Maul and Rapid Fire also doesn’t double as a closer and escape tool.

lol. so much under playing the most broken Ranger skill — Rapid Fire.

Keep in that this skill applies 10 stacks of Vulnerability (15 stacks on Opening Strike) and when traited with Read the Wind, Eagle Eye, Steady Focus, and cooldown reduction from Quick Draw we’re talking about massive over-the-top broken damage.

Not even a Thief can top that especially at 1500 range.

You hate to admit it because you hate to see it nerfed.

But let’s get back to the OP to nerf Thief even more.

Healing Abilities…

Thief Withdraw : 4,344 / 15s = 289.6 … also a 3/4s evade, a roll backwards, and cleanses movement imparing conditions.

Thief Hide In Shadows : 5240 / 30s = 174.6 … also gives stealth, removes damaging conditions, and provides regeneration for some additional healing that bumps its total healing up. Also synergizes quite well with stealth traits.

Signet of Malice : 3,275 / 15s = 218.3 … passive heals you when you attack … can also be spec’d to have a 12s cooldown, give might, give initiative (2 separate traits), etc.

Skelk Venom : 4210 / kitten = 100.s … also heals you for next 4 hits for 645 each = 2,580 more healing. Really a specialized heal in my mind (I’m not a personal fan of it) for those that love venoms and are traited for them.

Elementalist Ether Renewal is a 3.5 s channel that does 625 * 8 = 5,000 healing on a 15s cooldown so 5,000 / 18.5 = 270.3 … not even as efficient healing as withdraw and it can actually be interrupted … withdraw can’t. It’s one advantage over it is that it removes all conditions … 1 per pulse up to 8 pulses instead of just movement impairing conditions. Just a tip … this is a great one to headshot.

Elementalist Glyph of Elemental Harmony heals for 4894 / 25s = 195.76. This is worse than Withdraw and Signet of Malice and only barely better than Hide in Shadows. It’s primary bonus is boons and synergy with glyph traits … but Elementalist cantrips are all the rage these days.

Elementalist Signet of Restoration : 3,275 / 25s = 131. This is worse than everything except Skelk Venom when you’ve failed to land any of those 4 hits. It has a bonus similar to Malice … but its cooldown will never be 12s like Malice’s … nor can it be traited to reduce other ability’s cooldowns like Malice can be traited to provide Initiative.

Elementalist Arcane Brilliance : 3560 / 25 = 142.4. This is also worse than all your heals. It needs to hit 5 targets just to compete with the healing from Withdraw.

Now … Elementalist does have access to some nice heals via various weapons and traits … but so does Thief for traits … while stealthed as well. I’d much rather heal while not being hit by anything but blind AOEs/melee swings that I fail to avoid than heal while being attacked actually directly attacked by someone that can see me. Personal preference I guess.

Guardian Shelter : kitten / 30 = 151.8. Worse than your heals. Longer cast time. It’s defining feature is 2s of block.

Signet of Resolve : 8150 / 40 = 203.75. Only more efficient than Malice and Venom. Only removes 1 condition per second when not on cooldown. It doesn’t hold a candle to the on-demand condition removal of your heals nor their healing efficieny … not to mention their utility (evade + movement / stealth).

Guardian Litany of Wrath : 1640 / 30 = 54.6. This is horrible unless they can then inflict quite a bit of damage over the next 60s after it is cast. Even then, it only heals for 20% of that damage so unless they are hitting 5 targets, they are going to heal less per hit than what an actual hit does … quite likely while being hit for what an actual hit does. I’m not a fan. It’s like Thief’s venom heal … which I like better than this.

Guardian Healing Breeze : 3250 + 4 pulses of 650 = 5850 / 40s cooldown = 146.25. Not very efficient. It also has a greater than 2s channel so can be interrupted to be made even worse. It’s bonus is that it can heal nearby allies too.

Now, yes, guardian has their passive virtue heal and some other ways to heal via traits … but, again, so does Thief. Guardian also can’t heal while being unseen. Same as Elementalist.

So what was it that you were talking about with Thief not having some great heals? Perhaps you should actually look at the abilities.

Now to your other “points” …

Denying stealth to thief is not like denying heal/aegis to guardian …

Denying blind to thief is like denying aegis to guardian … except thief can use blind much more often.

Thief healing was already covered … though we could look at your traits giving you regen, passive heal, condition removal, etc. in stealth (if you take them, of course).

Now to points in sPvP … never said you can’t kill a thief. Feel free to find where I did.
Thief is not designed to be a bunker .. which is what is used to defend a point. A roamer is used to kill enemy bunkers while assisting friendly bunkers. That is their role. If you want to contest a point … pick a class ideal for that. If you don’t like that your stealth makes you less than ideal for contesting a point, then please talk to a Guardian about how they’d love to have Thief’s mobility.

As far as evades/dodges … Thief can dodge and evade more than any class … followed up by a Sword/Dagger Ranger … but they can’t dodge 3 times … and can’t make vigor even better thinks to being able to do so.

Additionally, your Sword+Dagger isn’t the only weaponset with evades. Please look at your class some more.

Now to your reveal example … reveal doesn’t stack, it refreshes so 18s is a “lol”. Additionally, even if it did stack … 18s would require at least 3 different Rangers and/or Engineers using utilities that those classes don’t commonly take. If you’re being focused by 3 people … thief is one of the best, if not the best, at escaping fights … even without stealth … shortbow and teleport your butt out of there.

If you’re being bombed … relocate. You’re not only capable of stealth but of high mobility, several dodge rolls, and evades.

Lastly, steal is not weak, even when untraited. Go steal from a Mesmer, Guardian, Warrior, etc.. All boons is weak? That spin attack is weak? That big stun is weak? You just want a 1-button I-WIN or something?

Additionally, it can be a closer as well.

I see your problem … E.B.C.A.K.

@Vincent … I don’t want to see thief nerfed except stealth broken from Mesmer , Ranger, and Thief when they miss an attack from stealth. That is my one beef … especially given Warrior’s burst skill change.

As far as Rapid Fire … I don’t know how many times we have to point out ways to stop it … heck … 4 initiative to daze it. The FotM rangers that pop elite and/or signet to use it are the easiest to kill as you just avoid that first burst in the one of several ways listed several times and now they are easy prey.

We’ll also ignore that you can exploit the Ranger’s pet mechanic for easy stealth if you use OH dagger … though it seems that I see mostly Dagger+Pistol these days … which doesn’t require a hit to stealth.

Sebrent.3625:

@Vincent … I don’t want to see thief nerfed except stealth broken from Mesmer , Ranger, and Thief when they miss an attack from stealth. That is my one beef … especially given Warrior’s burst skill change.

As far as Rapid Fire … I don’t know how many times we have to point out ways to stop it … heck … 4 initiative to daze it.

So, tell me.

How do you daze it from 1500 range where they can knock you back from 1200 range?!?

Not to mention while their pet is gnawing at your face.

#1: Why didn’t you dodge the knockback from that range? It has a very clear animation.

#2: Why are you unable to deal with the crappy pet AI when a Ranger hasn’t crippled/chilled/immobilized you? Also, with the pet right there, why arne’t you taking advantage of an easy source of stealth if you have an OH dagger … heal up and reset the fight from a better position.

#3: If you’re already at 1500 range, you should be able to teleport, roll back, etc. to line of sight it easily … or just get out of range. Thieves are far from slow/immobile.

Sebrent.3625:

#1: Why didn’t you dodge the knockback from that range? It has a very clear animation.

Um, maybe because it’s all used up dodging Rapid Fire…hmmm.

#2: Why are you unable to deal with the crappy pet AI when a Ranger hasn’t crippled/chilled/immobilized you? Also, with the pet right there, why arne’t you taking advantage of an easy source of stealth if you have an OH dagger … heal up and reset the fight from a better position.

Nice theoretical solution. You are welcome to try those with my Ranger.

If I can force you to use CnD on my pet, I already win.

Also you can try to daze my Rapid Fire from 1500 range.

#3: If you’re already at 1500 range, you should be able to teleport, roll back, etc. to line of sight it easily … or just get out of range. Thieves are far from slow/immobile.

Wait, what? Running away? That’s your solution?

lol. This is why players who don’t play Thief should be ban from making Thief balance suggestions because more than likely they have no idea what they are talking about.

gg mate.

now usually i’m not one to praise wow, i think it’s vastly outdated,
but stealth is one of the mechanics that they have working PERFECTLY.

in order to stealth you need to leave combat, but stealth has no duration,
it ends when you attack or are hit with an attack,
and you can be detected if you are in the cone sight range of enemies.

this is how stealth should work!

Liewec.2896:

now usually i’m not one to praise wow, i think it’s vastly outdated,
but stealth is one of the mechanics that they have working PERFECTLY.

in order to stealth you need to leave combat, but stealth has no duration,
it ends when you attack or are hit with an attack,
and you can be detected if you are in the cone sight range of enemies.

this is how stealth should work!

naw, a real nerf is reveal when the opponents block. It doesnt take much to nerf stealth, but i guess anet have coding issues.

Come on team Arena just make stealth working as intended already (for the name itself)
as do invis, they have different mechanics and meaning.
i like the idea of,become totaly invis when not moving and near shadowy area (for those skills and utility that has invis only)
if move, walk or run, make it like transparent thing (you already knew what i mean just do it)for the stealth mechanics and for the sake of visual counters.

as a thief itself and play 5khrs on thief only and nothing more and has 500tpvp and 500spvp battle, and im rangeing on top 50in leaderborad (yeah leader, man where are they now? hiding in there multiple accounts? such posey much eunuch) and as the gw2stat says im also ranging in 10win 2losses per day i demand it! says all the wanabes.
stealth is op without visual counter.

@OP: NO! no detect!, detect comes from player skill called awareness.

Lol Vincent, I didn’t realize that you just stopped at 1,500 range and let him plink at you till you died.

Why are you stuck at max range this whole time? You can’t use steal or any other thief closer (weapon dependent, of course) ?

Also, most thieves can dodge more … and have evade on weapon skills. If my Ranger can do it with only 2 dodge rolls and evade on shortbow, you can do it too as a Thief. Heck, if my Mesmer can do it with dodge rolls and blurred frenzy, you can too.

Repositioning or reseting the fight isn’t running away. It’s reseting the fight. A smart person will do this if they’ve ended up in a bad position. A dumb person will just die.

If you think using cloak and dagger on the pet is a bad thing, then you’ve missed out on the point of stealth.

In the end … I see plenty of thieves that are eating up Rangers. What’s the difference between you and them other than the player? I see none.

The only thieves I see dying to my 6s of reveal are the arrogant ones who storm small group fights like a heavy class.
In 1v1 situations the it doesn’t stop an average thief from backing up and reseting the fight

Vikkela.7261:

The only thieves I see dying to my 6s of reveal are the arrogant ones who storm small group fights like a heavy class.
In 1v1 situations the it doesn’t stop an average thief from backing up and reseting the fight

On a zerker power build ranger, I win 90% of my 1v1 vs thieves who I used sic ‘em on. It’s not because the class sucks without stealth, it’s because people only know easymode backstab, 1 dodge roll, stealth, backstab again. They don’t even see the buffs/debuffs on either me or their character. They use a stealth skill with reveal on, see it not work, panic and use them all together…

This is the average thief (or player in general really)…

In other words … the Thieves dying to it are the same players that die as Rangers to reflect :-p

Sebrent.3625:

Lol Vincent, I didn’t realize that you just stopped at 1,500 range and let him plink at you till you died.

Why are you stuck at max range this whole time? You can’t use steal or any other thief closer (weapon dependent, of course) ?

Stop down playing the Ranger, I have one and I know what they can do. I can keep my target between 1500 and 1200 with my Longbow if I want to. And with Rapid Fire, I can take them out even before they get any closer. I can even hit a Thief with Rapid Fire even when they are in stealth.

Now that my Ranger can force a Thief to reveal themselves — there’s no running away, no resetting fights. Even if you choose to use line of sight Rangers have another broken weapon — Greatswords.

Also, most thieves can dodge more … and have evade on weapon skills. If my Ranger can do it with only 2 dodge rolls and evade on shortbow, you can do it too as a Thief. Heck, if my Mesmer can do it with dodge rolls and blurred frenzy, you can too.

lol. Another obvious reason why non-Thief players should be banned from making Thief balance suggestions. You just keep making things up as we go along.

Thief cannot “dodge more”. All profession have the same amount of Endurance. The evade on the weapon skill is laughably unrealiable due to pre-cast and after cast.

It’s too obvious that you don’t play Thief, otherwise you won’t even post those non-sense. All you have to do is play a Thief against a Ranger or a Warrior and that in itself will prove you wrong.

Repositioning or reseting the fight isn’t running away. It’s reseting the fight.

Really? So why are you OUT OF COMBAT when you reset a fight?

A smart person will do this if they’ve ended up in a bad position. A dumb person will just die.

No. A smart person will re-roll a Warrior or a Ranger and delete their Thief.

If you think using cloak and dagger on the pet is a bad thing, then you’ve missed out on the point of stealth.

Look, you can CnD the pet all you like, but my Rapid Fire will hit you no matter what. And as soon as you get out of Stealth, my pet will fear you while I’m hitting you with another volley of Rapid Fire arrows.

There is no point in stealthing if Rapid Fire (or any channeled skill) is already channeled.

In the end … I see plenty of thieves that are eating up Rangers.

In the end….I also know rumors about a lot of Rangers that are eating up Thieves.

What’s the difference between you and them other than the player? I see none.

The difference between a good Thief and a bad Thief is HUGE!

The only way you are keeping a target between 1,200 and 1,500 is if (1) they suck or (2) they are fighting someone else

Wow … you aren’t aware of your Acrobatics traitline? /golfclap. I suggest you take a look at it. It’s an awesome traitline.

Also, I do play Thief; just not nearly as much as my Mesmer. This isn’t exactly an MMO where running multiple characters is difficult.

You should go listen to the more skilled thieves though. They are still happy. They are still quite solid (understatement) 1v1 and know their strengths/weaknesses in group fights.

As far as Rapid Fire hitting you when you’re stealthed … only if the cast is started before you stealth. Otherwise, it won’t hit you because they no longer have you targeted when they start the cast. This is very basic information you should know.

I’m horribly amused that you’re lumping in Warrior with Ranger. If you look at their sub-forum, there is a horde of people like you complaining that it’s broken … despite there still be good warriors all over the place still wrecking face.

I get the feeling that you just don’t know how to fight Warriors and Rangers.

I’m also horribly amused that you think the Ranger greatsword is OP. What exactly is overpowered about it?

Yes, resetting combat involves getting out of combat. That’s why you do it because that regenerates your HP quickly and now you can re-enter the fight at a better position. Smart players do this all the time because it is much better than dying. But hey, if you still think dying is superior … that’s your right to err.

We have all “heard rumors” of class X killing class Y. The forums are littered with people like you complaining about class X that killed them.

You are quite correct that there is a huge difference between good and bad thieves. One of the biggest is that the good thieves are out there killing while you’re complaining on the forums that Rangers longbows and greatswords (lmao) are OP … and that Warriors are OP too … lol.

Still obviously E.B.C.A.K. … there are guides you could read that would help you.