Guild Wars 2

at all?

Considering it is the one passive agressive defensive boon that some professions have access to.
I mean if you see someone with retal does it stop you from attacking?

Just curious because with the recent changes i feel retaliatio was nerfed in the wrong way.

Considering I run mostly Mesmer and Thief, I’ll just frigging steal that Retaliation off of someone. Then take their behind out. (Presuming I can burst them down before they reapply said boon, mind you.)

I think it does make some players re-evaluate their attacks, but only after 1/2—3/4 of their HP has been drained because of it, particularly rapid-fire/multi-hit bursters.

Players who rely on conditions or heavy-hitting skills (ie, nukes) probably don’t give a rat’s fuzzy rear end about a 200-300 damage trade for their 3-4k.

I main medi guard and since my damage is a lot of small hits as opposed to something like an Eviscerate or Life Blast, I do begin to notice retaliation against me.

However, I also usually spec 4 into Virtues, and I try to time my retaliation properly against other guardians, GS mesmers, axe necros, etc, when I know I will be eating the damage.

In fact, the guardian build I am not great going head-to-head is the one that runs tri-shout, AH, and retal on virtue. Essentially, insanely high protection uptime plus 100% retal uptime (if you time it right) screws my bursty medis up in a 1v1, unless I am just that much better than the opponent.

Retal does win me some fights, but against that build I think is the only time I can really say I lose to it. The shout build is also so insanely simple to play, I can just spam 1 with scepter. However I still prefer medis for speed and burst, as opposed to being passive like the shout build.

Loving retal, easiest way to win against bad players since they will keep attacking no matter what.

I also hate it though if my opponent has perma retal and I have no boon removal…

it works a lot better against certain builds and classes. With many multi-hit attacks you can often retal for some serious damage > ileap, pistol whip are 2 that come to mind.

Retal was stronger once. Remember when every WvW group stacked retal before clashes? But even so, some profession/builds still have problems with retaliation. Like engineers using flamethrower or grenades.

retal is deadly when your attack is a bunch of small ticks instead of a single hit burst. there’s a reason pistol whip builds were nicknamed “dietoretal”.

and in WvW… careful with those big channeled AoEs. barrage will kill your ranger faster than enemy zerg attack if you time it poorly.

In groups, yes retaliation can hurt A LOT. In smaller groups, retaliation cannot be strong because of the access some classes have to it. The potentially high uptime on it having it stack duration simply will never allow retaliation to be a threat in smaller fights. Most applications of retaliation are AoE anyways indicating where it is meant to be used.

usually running shatter mesmer, and i’am quite wary of retal – mostly when fighting guardians. Using Sword #2 (which in most builds makes up a large part of my burst) generally tends to hurt me more than my target, and even with boon rip it’s quite hard to get all the boons down before initializing the burst – even if the guard is inmobilized, one Symbol of Wrath would be enough to turn a potential Burst either into a waste of Time and Cooldowns, or into a death trap – because one GS#2 alone usually is enough to eat at least 70% of my hp, and kiting someone with a leap and/or teleport and good access to swiftness isn’t exactly easy.

Doesn’t look different for Mes GS#1 either; the autoattack will barely damage your foe compared to the retaliation damage you receive, so you cannot even use it to counter your opponents regeneration in between bursts :P

To the question at hand: would it stop me from attacking? Well, always depends on the situation: i don’t have problems if the damage done by me doesn’t get “outclassed” (exaggerating here) by my foes passive retaliation, which normally means that i don’t mind low-armor foes with retaliation. At the same time i also don’t care too much about retal on high-armor, but otherwise weak opponents.
However, if i see a Guardian fight (an offensively traited guardian doesn’t exactly qualify as “lowe armor target”), i usually think twice about dueling them. Celestial Guards with retal are a nono; the only way that i would fight them is when they actually ask me for it

Retaliation is the only thing my pistol whip thief is weak against. It’s functionally invulnerable to all normal attacks when timed right (and will basically always be timed right in dungeons), but retaliation hits very, very hard given how many times PW hits and how little health a full zerk thief has.

Modrem wolves and their AoE retaliation proccing are the most deadly threat in PvE atm to this build, most other sources can have their retal outright stolen away, but when those wolves hit in a pack, you can’t steal ALL of their retal, if you pistol whip back you’ll die in 2 seconds, if you don’t PW you’ll die from their very heavy attacks.

Pretty much the only real way to deal with it is to run away while spamming SB 2 at the ground until the wolves run out of HP.

Retaliation is one of several things holding Rangers back in WvW. Once barrage is fired, there’s no taking it back. It has a delayed time before damage begins (and next patch we’ll likely finish the whole channel before any damage is dealt) which means once you realize you’re being reflected it’s too late.

So each barrage will reflect 5x retal x12 waves of barrage. That’s one dead Ranger.

Now the obvious solution is to simply not use barrage on a zerg… well barrage is the only real ranged AE the Ranger class even has access to. Kind of need to use it to bring what little value the class actually has.

Thief with 2xpistols, unload, and a certain ricochet trait is instant death in wvw zerg play.

Retaliation only gets scary when 3-4 people have it, and you’re using multi hitting AoE. That’s the only time it gets scary, but against a single person, it’s really not that scary.

Wolfield.9812:

Thief with 2xpistols, unload, and a certain ricochet trait is instant death in wvw zerg play.

Do not forget about daggerstorm

Merlin Dyfed Avalon.5046:

at all?

Considering it is the one passive agressive defensive boon that some professions have access to.
I mean if you see someone with retal does it stop you from attacking?

Just curious because with the recent changes i feel retaliatio was nerfed in the wrong way.

It scares engineers who use grenades. It destroys them when they use the FT auto attack or EG’s fumigate.

I will be weary of retaliation sometimes when I’m using multi attack skills, or multi attack AoE skills in a group.

It’s a problem in WvW generally because power is the most useful stat with vit/toughness right under it. Retaliation scales off power so it’s going to hurt if you’re smacking people with over 2400 power. :s

BrunoBRS.5178:

barrage will kill your ranger faster than enemy zerg attack if you time it poorly.

This is what I was going to say. Longbow ranger in general. especially with piercing, has major issues against retal.

On my Longbow Ranger, retal is one of my biggest enemies. It’s so bad that I wouldn’t mind there being something for Rangers through traits that makes them immune to retal or halves its damage.

In fact, change Strider’s Defense to do this:

• immune to retaliation

It also makes little sense that Ranged damage can get retaliated. The nearest enemy is 1500 range away, but somehow the Ranger dies.

Atherakhia.4086:

Retaliation is one of several things holding Rangers back in WvW. Once barrage is fired, there’s no taking it back. It has a delayed time before damage begins (and next patch we’ll likely finish the whole channel before any damage is dealt) which means once you realize you’re being reflected it’s too late.

So each barrage will reflect 5x retal x12 waves of barrage. That’s one dead Ranger.

Now the obvious solution is to simply not use barrage on a zerg… well barrage is the only real ranged AE the Ranger class even has access to. Kind of need to use it to bring what little value the class actually has.

why would you use SB2 on them? SB2 will also proc a ton of retal and kill you. just face them, lay a black powder, and autoattack. it’ll still hurt, but not nearly as much as what you’re suggesting (mordrem wolves’ leap works like backstab, double damage from behind)

Maliel.8362:

Wolfield.9812:

Thief with 2xpistols, unload, and a certain ricochet trait is instant death in wvw zerg play.

Do not forget about daggerstorm

unless you have signet of malice. then you can lol at the retal because daggerstorm procs that signet so much you can’t even see your character under all those green numbers.

Barrage on a zerg: insta a2/3 go
Overtime aoe is a pain in some situations

The only time where it does as ele, it’s when you take your FGS in WVW zerg’s battle. If you dare use the 4th ability (and since the damage will be nerfed pretty heavily i probably wont anymore), it’s pressing the suicide button …

Retaliation is definitely an engineer killer in WvW. In WvW we use the flamethrower and grenades a lot, and each of those are multi hitting weak AoEs. I can be downed in a few throws.

In sPVP not so much, since there the bomb kit is more prevalent.

BrunoBRS.5178:

Atherakhia.4086:

Retaliation is one of several things holding Rangers back in WvW. Once barrage is fired, there’s no taking it back. It has a delayed time before damage begins (and next patch we’ll likely finish the whole channel before any damage is dealt) which means once you realize you’re being reflected it’s too late.

So each barrage will reflect 5x retal x12 waves of barrage. That’s one dead Ranger.

Now the obvious solution is to simply not use barrage on a zerg… well barrage is the only real ranged AE the Ranger class even has access to. Kind of need to use it to bring what little value the class actually has.

why would you use SB2 on them? SB2 will also proc a ton of retal and kill you. just face them, lay a black powder, and autoattack. it’ll still hurt, but not nearly as much as what you’re suggesting (mordrem wolves’ leap works like backstab, double damage from behind)

wut?

rangers who use shortbow hit 2x’s per second, and sword hits 3x’s per second. that means against guardians with average power, shortbow rangers take AT LEAST 500 retal per sec and sword users take 750 per sec.

believe me we feel it, and if you dont pay attention you can die.

When I played mesmer there was nothing worse than retaliation on a zerg after I put a feedback =>autokill on skills i was not even launching

I love grenades. I hate retail.
I love longbows. I hate retail.

Is it out of whack? A bit because it encourages murder balls. The problem in WvW is if you sit back as a backline caster you lose critical buffs AND take a ton of damage that would otherwise be dealt with.

The result is the game is like watching children play soccer/football. Just follow the herd. It would be great if positioning counted for a lot more.

Retail is not the biggest factor creating the problem but it would be easy enough to “fix” by making it only apply 1x per target (versus getting hit multiple times if you stack up).

So there is a big difference between small and large scale when it comes to retaliation.
How would it affect your playstyle in small scale?
Let’s say spvp, 1v1 or 2v2.

How would retaliation work post patch with faster weapon attacks?

Merlin Dyfed Avalon.5046:

at all?

Considering it is the one passive agressive defensive boon that some professions have access to.
I mean if you see someone with retal does it stop you from attacking?

Just curious because with the recent changes i feel retaliatio was nerfed in the wrong way.

Terrifies me when I run full glass cannon Elementalist build in WvW… 1 Meteor or 1 Ice Bow and I can kill myself pretty easily.

I think, a good way to balance retaliation would be to increase its damage, BUT to cap at ONE TICK per second max (per opponent obviously)

=> Increase its global effect, lower it in small niche where its obviously to strongh

If it were me, I’d change it so it only has 1 charge and stacks in intensity. Same with confusion.

For example…

Retaliation makes it so the next attack against you causes X damage where X is dependent on how many stacks of retaliation you have on you. Once you’re hit, it is removed.

Confusion makes it so the next attack you do causes you to take X damage where X is dependent on how many stacks of confusion you have on you. Once you use a skill, confusion is removed.

Something like that at least makes the boon/condition more equal regardless if you’re using a fast weapon or a slow one.

From what I can tell, Retal seems the most effective against any setup that does more smaller multi-hitting numbers than big ones. And considering I see more bunker builds in WvW due to the zerg fighting nature of the place, it’s outright devastating there. In 1v1, it can be even worse for any class who is using a multi-hit weapon, though it seems to hit the Medium armor classes the hardest due to some of the better 1v1 weapon sets/kits being multi-hitting ones (Ranger LB, Thief’s Unload and Pistol Whip, Engineer’s Flamethrower and Grenades).

Mesmer sword #2 in zerg = dead, ever since they changed Sword #2 from Invuln to Evade.

Xavi.6591:

Mesmer sword #2 in zerg = dead, ever since they changed Sword #2 from Invuln to Evade.

if youre going to run full glass (never go full kitten), you cant complain about dying to anything. not even to retaliation.

I’m not afraid of Retaliation, and I enjoy playing glass builds. (sPvP)

It’s just as the old saying goes… “I’m okay with having 1 health as long as my opponent has 0.”

Atherakhia.4086:

BrunoBRS.5178:

Atherakhia.4086:

Retaliation is one of several things holding Rangers back in WvW. Once barrage is fired, there’s no taking it back. It has a delayed time before damage begins (and next patch we’ll likely finish the whole channel before any damage is dealt) which means once you realize you’re being reflected it’s too late.

So each barrage will reflect 5x retal x12 waves of barrage. That’s one dead Ranger.

Now the obvious solution is to simply not use barrage on a zerg… well barrage is the only real ranged AE the Ranger class even has access to. Kind of need to use it to bring what little value the class actually has.

why would you use SB2 on them? SB2 will also proc a ton of retal and kill you. just face them, lay a black powder, and autoattack. it’ll still hurt, but not nearly as much as what you’re suggesting (mordrem wolves’ leap works like backstab, double damage from behind)

wut?

misquoted, meant to quote the guy talking about thief VS those new plant wolf enemies.

Mostly I’ll just ignore retal and fight through it, but if I’m playing p/p thief or nade engine then I’ll have to wait it out or remove it.

If you use big AoE like meteor shower on a Zerg well then u could insta die to a ret-spike, but it makes u careful not much more… if u talk 1v1 situation then NO it never scares me.

Confusion and Burn makes me go for cleanse faster… Terror/Fear u need to stun-break..

so ret-scare: NO

My ranger when my barrage is tickling people for 1.3k crit while a meteor shower is hitting people for 4k and my Barrage costs me 50% of my HP as soon as there’s a Guardian around, which is everywhere.

I fear it a lot in WvW and when mobs have a 1k+ retaliation.