Does seeing Engineer Kits make a difference?

Does seeing Engineer Kits make a difference?

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Posted by: Anymras.5729

Anymras.5729

Q:

In the year or so that this thread has existed, absolutely nothing has been done regarding the subject of Hobosacks.
These unsightly rucksacks prevent visibility of back items, and can obscure much of the character using them, in addition to letting back items glitch through them when skills are being used, making them even more unsightly. Some of them even look almost identical – particularly Bomb Kit and Tool Kit, which differ only in that one gives the user a wrench and the other leaves them empty-handed.

Roughly ten months ago, Bill Freist popped in with:

Some pretty interesting ideas here. I was actually spit-balling some ideas on how to address this today. This has always been something that has bothered me, too.

For example:

  • Have kits respect the existing back item flag. If you have a back item and you want to show it, hide the kit. If you don’t have a back item or choose to hide it, always show the kit. Obviously this makes it a little harder than usual to tell what kit you are using, so:
    • A nameplate icon similar to Elemental Attunements would be a good addition (I may add this regardless if we can get the art )
    • Move the kit somewhere else on your body. I know, crazy right? For example, who doesn’t like a sweet fanny-pack?

Hopefully this finally gets resolved soon, and I’ll do what I can to see that happen. Keep in mind, as Colin mentioned before, that there are some pretty beefy projects going on that are consuming our engineering time. But that doesn’t exactly mean we can’t sneak stuff in here and there .

-Bill

This ten-month-old post implies that there’s something of a balance concern to removing the ‘hobosacks.’ Now, if only there was a board where profession balance was discussed – wait, there is. And I’m on it, precisely because it’s implied there that this is a balance issue, unlike (presumably) the purely cosmetic visibility of gloves, helms and shoulder gear, which have all had visibility toggles slipped in at one point or another.

Now, without further nattering, the question: Does seeing the sack on an Engineer’s back help, in any way, shape, or form, in combating them?

To put it another way: Would removal of the hobosack make fighting an Engineer more difficult?

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Posted by: Eurantien.4632

Eurantien.4632

Engineer’s have different kits on their back?

Seriously, no one looks at the kit, or at least I don’t. You either see them with their weapons, or there are nade animations, or bomb animations, or you see the flame thrower, or you hear the elixir gun, or you see a gear shield. I have never looked at an engineer’s backpack in order to see what it was doing.

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Posted by: Foefaller.1082

Foefaller.1082

Engineer’s have different kits on their back?

Seriously, no one looks at the kit, or at least I don’t. You either see them with their weapons, or there are nade animations, or bomb animations, or you see the flame thrower, or you hear the elixir gun, or you see a gear shield. I have never looked at an engineer’s backpack in order to see what it was doing.

I believe you have just giving him the answer he wanted to hear.

Personally, I love having that “hobosack” 99% of the time on my engi, but I would still like the option to have it not show if/when I get a sweet back item I want to ogle at instead.

So yeah, make it an icon that shows up on our stat bar like ele attunment, and give us the option to not have it override whatever back piece we have on.

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Posted by: Anymras.5729

Anymras.5729

Engineer’s have different kits on their back?

Seriously, no one looks at the kit, or at least I don’t. You either see them with their weapons, or there are nade animations, or bomb animations, or you see the flame thrower, or you hear the elixir gun, or you see a gear shield. I have never looked at an engineer’s backpack in order to see what it was doing.

I believe you have just giving him the answer he wanted to hear.

Personally, I love having that “hobosack” 99% of the time on my engi, but I would still like the option to have it not show if/when I get a sweet back item I want to ogle at instead.

So yeah, make it an icon that shows up on our stat bar like ele attunment, and give us the option to not have it override whatever back piece we have on.

I want to hear any answer that is true. Looking, not looking, this isn’t really for me – this is essentially just a call for any player to speak up one way or another, and hopefully the devs will maybe look in and find themselves either confirmed in their balance concern or consider removing the sacks.

That said: Personally, I’m definitely a supporter of options. If people want the hobosack, let them have it, but don’t force them on people using cosmetic back items.

In any case, at least get the bloody code working right, so the back item doesn’t clip through the sacks.

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Posted by: Bhawb.7408

Bhawb.7408

I don’t really think this is a balance issue at all, even less so than attunements. Once you know what kit/kits they have, which you can tell very quickly without the hobopacks, you know what to expect.

I’d say just give them the treatment he talked about. If people want them then they can have them, but if not then don’t force it on people.

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Posted by: frans.8092

frans.8092

You could always implement it so that it is hidden to the player, but visible to everyone else.

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Posted by: Terrahero.9358

Terrahero.9358

You could always implement it so that it is hidden to the player, but visible to everyone else.

That kind of defeats the purpose, part of what people like in making their character look good is in showing it off.

I dont see why Engineers need to telegraph their kit with the backpiece art. I dont know which weapons a Warrior has by some big sign on his back, i need to look at what he has in his hands and at the abilities he uses.

Why should engineers be different? Especially since it removes one of the key asthetic choices a player can make for his character.
If people are so upset they cant tell the difference between Grenadekit, Bombkit and Medkit then instead of taking away choice from Engineers, arenanet should make some fitting weapon animations for these kits, instead of the lazy Empty Hands.

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Posted by: frans.8092

frans.8092

You could always implement it so that it is hidden to the player, but visible to everyone else.

That kind of defeats the purpose, part of what people like in making their character look good is in showing it off.

If I set character models and quality to lowest you’ll all look the same to me anyway (I get the better frame rates), showing off is for your eyes only.

I dont see why Engineers need to telegraph their kit with the backpiece art.

Same reason you can see what weapons someone uses.

I don’t see why it would bother you if other people get to see what kit you have on your back if your view remains aesthetically pleasing.

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Posted by: Terrahero.9358

Terrahero.9358

You could always implement it so that it is hidden to the player, but visible to everyone else.

That kind of defeats the purpose, part of what people like in making their character look good is in showing it off.

If I set character models and quality to lowest you’ll all look the same to me anyway (I get the better frame rates), showing off is for your eyes only.

I dont see why Engineers need to telegraph their kit with the backpiece art.

Same reason you can see what weapons someone uses.

I don’t see why it would bother you if other people get to see what kit you have on your back if your view remains aesthetically pleasing.

You still hold a weapon, flamethrower, elixirgun, wrench. And if its a problem that medkit, grenadekit and bombkit come without holding a weapon then they should add a visual for those kits instead of using that to deny choice to the people who play engineer.

I dont see why it would bother you if engineers no longer telegraph their weapons more then most other professions.

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Posted by: frans.8092

frans.8092

You could always implement it so that it is hidden to the player, but visible to everyone else.

That kind of defeats the purpose, part of what people like in making their character look good is in showing it off.

If I set character models and quality to lowest you’ll all look the same to me anyway (I get the better frame rates), showing off is for your eyes only.

I dont see why Engineers need to telegraph their kit with the backpiece art.

Same reason you can see what weapons someone uses.

I don’t see why it would bother you if other people get to see what kit you have on your back if your view remains aesthetically pleasing.

You still hold a weapon, flamethrower, elixirgun, wrench. And if its a problem that medkit, grenadekit and bombkit come without holding a weapon then they should add a visual for those kits instead of using that to deny choice to the people who play engineer.

There is no visual except for the thing on your back, if they’d add something recognizable in your hands that’d make a difference.

I dont see why it would bother you if engineers no longer telegraph their weapons more then most other professions.

I don’t see why it would bother you when other players can see you’re using a (specific) kit.

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Posted by: Carighan.6758

Carighan.6758

I like the idea of knowing which weapon the Engineer is wielding, but then they need to be more impactful. Right now you switch them on&off constantly, which makes the backpack pointless.

If there was more of a reason to stay in the kit for a few seconds, and then drop it again for a bit, stronger individual skills etc, it’d be very interesting to see this. “Oh, flamethrower now, need to clear off”.

The strength of heart to face oneself has been made manifest. The persona Carighan has appeared.

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Posted by: Terrahero.9358

Terrahero.9358

There is no visual except for the thing on your back, if they’d add something recognizable in your hands that’d make a difference.

You mean like the Flamethrower? Or the Elixirgun? Or the Toolkit? They do have visuals.
And i already said they arenanet shouldnt be lazy and add similar visuals for Medkit, Bombkit and Grenadekit. Rather then denying choice to the player on what visuals he wants to display on his back.

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Posted by: Imagi.4561

Imagi.4561

Considering that the toolkit and the bomb kit have the exact same backpiece, I’m not sure how the backpacks are supposed to be a reliable visual cue.

It’s much easier to just wait until they start using skills. The kit skills are pretty distinct, even if the hobosacks aren’t.

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By Ogden’s hammer, what savings!

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Posted by: lakdav.3694

lakdav.3694

The skill animations should be discernable enough. There are enough visual and audio tells of which skill of which kit is used at all times. The only similarity i can think of in animation is grenade throws and the traited med-kit throws. Even then, the grenades themselves are clearly visibly grenades, and the thrown med packs are still med packs. These packs are not convenient for anyone, but those who for some reason likes to look like an old stained backpack with two legs.

Naturally a hostile is facing the engineer, meaning that the kit itself is concealed 90% of the time, while for the engineer player themselves the kit conceals their character 90% of the time.

It just boggles my mind that rangers or generally archers dont have their quiver of arrows somewhere on their backs, but engineers have backpacks that they never reach into, or packs that are not connected to the kit where it would make sense (flamethrower and elixir gun)

Its an aesthetic issue which might make it a small one, but considering that the horizontal progression is mostly based on looks, aesthetics should be of higher priority than what the age of that thread suggests.

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Posted by: Bombsaway.7198

Bombsaway.7198

As an engineer who plays other classes, I can tell quite a bit about your engineer by watching the hobosack changes (especially as you run around with speedy kits). The sacks can be very useful BEFORE a fight but hardly as useful thereafter. You can see what the engineer is kitting and the animations are pretty obvious too.

But think about the problems you create visually with the OP’s suggestion.

The flamethrower would look just silly without a pack.
E-gun would be the same. Where is that elixir coming from?

Bombs and Grenades could ditch the sack. As for “tells”, you might just need to have the engineer hold a bomb in both hands when using the bomb kit (like holding a siege blueprint) and have a grenade in each hand while in the grenade kit. Tool kit already has the wrench.

The key problem is you can’t customize the sack skins. I wish there was a panel where you could pick between say 5 kit skins (each “nominally” tied to a race). That would be the ideal answer.

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Posted by: lakdav.3694

lakdav.3694

The flamethrower would look just silly without a pack.
E-gun would be the same. Where is that elixir coming from?

To this i have to react. It was my first unpleasant realization as soon as i could equip them for the first time, concerning the hobo-sacks, that the backpacks are not connected at all with the flamethrower or elixir gun. So this argument falls flat. The elixir and the fuel does not come from the packs. The packs just hold a bunch of mixtures way too exposed might i add, that has nothing to do with the weapon you are actually holding. While if you had no backpack, at least you could pretend that your rifle is a kitten multifunctional transforming weapon that can shoot bullets, nets, shrapnel, elixir and flame jets on demand.

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Posted by: lunyboy.8672

lunyboy.8672

I find the Zephyr rucksack will bug over the kit backpacks most of the time, negating the usefulness of the “tell” anyway. It seems like something they just don’t want to address, despite having so many backpacks available in the game.

Miss Fisthammer – Engineer | Urgard Fistorsen – Guardian
Physti – Elementalist | Fistful of Blades – Thief
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Posted by: Basaltface.2786

Basaltface.2786

As an engineer who plays other classes, I can tell quite a bit about your engineer by watching the hobosack changes (especially as you run around with speedy kits). The sacks can be very useful BEFORE a fight but hardly as useful thereafter. You can see what the engineer is kitting and the animations are pretty obvious too.

But think about the problems you create visually with the OP’s suggestion.

The flamethrower would look just silly without a pack.
E-gun would be the same. Where is that elixir coming from?

Bombs and Grenades could ditch the sack. As for “tells”, you might just need to have the engineer hold a bomb in both hands when using the bomb kit (like holding a siege blueprint) and have a grenade in each hand while in the grenade kit. Tool kit already has the wrench.

The key problem is you can’t customize the sack skins. I wish there was a panel where you could pick between say 5 kit skins (each “nominally” tied to a race). That would be the ideal answer.

The flamer and e-gun already look stupid cause where is the tube for the liquids that get shot by these weapons?

There.. look at a flamethrower

http://hellinahandbasket.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/vintage-wwii-flamethrower.jpg

See the hose? Where is the hose from our flamers to the backpiece? Or where is the E-gun´s hose to its backpiece? We dont got that stuff so there is no need for an ugly pack and period.

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Posted by: lunyboy.8672

lunyboy.8672

The flamer and e-gun already look stupid cause where is the tube for the liquids that get shot by these weapons?

There.. look at a flamethrower

http://hellinahandbasket.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/vintage-wwii-flamethrower.jpg

See the hose? Where is the hose from our flamers to the backpiece? Or where is the E-gun´s hose to its backpiece? We dont got that stuff so there is no need for an ugly pack and period.

They’re wireless.

Miss Fisthammer – Engineer | Urgard Fistorsen – Guardian
Physti – Elementalist | Fistful of Blades – Thief
[WHIP] Quaggan Slavers – HoD

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Posted by: Basaltface.2786

Basaltface.2786

The flamer and e-gun already look stupid cause where is the tube for the liquids that get shot by these weapons?

There.. look at a flamethrower

http://hellinahandbasket.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/vintage-wwii-flamethrower.jpg

See the hose? Where is the hose from our flamers to the backpiece? Or where is the E-gun´s hose to its backpiece? We dont got that stuff so there is no need for an ugly pack and period.

They’re wireless.

XD That made my day

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Posted by: Numot.3965

Numot.3965

I find the Zephyr rucksack will bug over the kit backpacks most of the time, negating the usefulness of the “tell” anyway. It seems like something they just don’t want to address, despite having so many backpacks available in the game.

A patch awhile back caused a “bug” where after using a skill any back piece shows through. This causes some pretty interesting looks when used with some back pieces. Personally as an engineer, I see it as something as a compromise since you can still see your back piece though the kit, and people can still see what kit your using.

Overall, I don’t really care about my kits being viable, its a part of the theme and flavor of the profession, and I’m too busy killing things and toggling my kit when needed, plus I like em. On a balance side, yah it makes a difference, I know what to expect from opposing engineers when I see them take out kits. Maybe that’s a side effect of being an engineer main though.