All I see these days are kitten boring engies in pvp doing massive condi spams or those annoying boring bunker engies that will never ever leaves the capture point.
even 3 people issnt enough to get those bunker types of engies down, its just boring as hell and its doesnt make this game fun to play.
It’s a bit depressing how long this game came out and how far we are from a balanced product. They need to stop with the 3 to 6 month patching cycle and get these things fixed timely.
Yeah, Engineers are super-annoying I agree. Their condi-spam is especially bad overpowered imo, while the decap nonsense at least isn’t good at killing people.
Condi engies tend to lack condition removal (usually have it on healing turret only) and often has ZERO stability. If they take either of those in a greater amount, they kitten their condis.
Its an L2P issue, just like all PvP whines.
“Dear Anet,
Nerf paper! Scissors is fine though.
Sincerely, rock".
Light Up the Darkness
“Dear ANet, nerf Paper, Scissors is fine. Sincerely, Rock”
Elysaurus | Warrior | [LOL] | League of the Legendary | Gandara (EU)
Condi engies tend to lack condition removal (usually have it on healing turret only) and often has ZERO stability. If they take either of those in a greater amount, they kitten their condis.
Its an L2P issue, just like all PvP whines.
“Dear Anet,
Nerf paper! Scissors is fine though.
Sincerely, rock".
It’s not about beating them, it’s that the builds are boring to fight against. Not to mention that the builds that CAN kill them not only don’t kill them fast but are also generally boring as well. As a Warrior if I want to kill a bunker Engi I’d have to run condi Warrior and it still wouldn’t be fast enough. Not to mention Decap Engis that have more pushback than even a Warrior with both Balanced Stance and Dolyak Signet can handle.
It doesn’t matter if you kill them, so long as they keep you off point for long enough they win. The overall class balance isn’t bad, PvP is just designed in such a way where tactics like these will just always win. The capture points are too small and the ability for 1 person to deny the cap from 2+ is ridiculous.
Just an angry old man…
Old Man Burr (War), Bad Hat Ben (Engi), Manly Manny Manson (Guard)
I do not think they are boring to fight. Your opinion on that is subjective at best. I never have much trouble getting them off a point with my mesmer, necro, or power engie.
In my opinion, you need to practice more before making balance claims. I see myself and many many others deal with them on a daily basis. By the way, when did one individuals opinion of how fun his enemy is to fight, become relevant to a balance discussion?
I do not think they are boring to fight. Your opinion on that is subjective at best. I never have much trouble getting them off a point with my mesmer, necro, or power engie.
In my opinion, you need to practice more before making balance claims. I see myself and many many others deal with them on a daily basis. By the way, when did one individuals opinion of how fun his enemy is to fight, become relevant to a balance discussion?
Just because something is subjective doesn’t mean it’s not an opinion shared by others. It’s also relevant because if players aren’t enjoying themselves they aren’t going to play, duh.
EDIT: Objective to Subjective, screw auto correct.
Just an angry old man…
Old Man Burr (War), Bad Hat Ben (Engi), Manly Manny Manson (Guard)
Wait, so we’re now calling for nerfs based on degree of boredom associated with whatever you’re trying to nerf? In that case, we might have to nerf the whole conquest game mode because it’s getting pretty monotonous.
Just because something is objective doesn’t mean it’s not an opinion shared by others. It’s also relevant because if players aren’t enjoying themselves they aren’t going to play, duh.
I’m pretty sure you mean “subjective” because objective is the opposite of an opinion.
Wait, so we’re now calling for nerfs based on degree of boredom associated with whatever you’re trying to nerf? In that case, we might have to nerf the whole conquest game mode because it’s getting pretty monotonous.
Just because something is objective doesn’t mean it’s not an opinion shared by others. It’s also relevant because if players aren’t enjoying themselves they aren’t going to play, duh.
I’m pretty sure you mean “subjective” because objective is the opposite of an opinion.
Yah, auto correct messed the post bad, I’ll fix it. If you noticed I never called for nerfs. What I want is for conquest to have larger capture points and to not allow a single player to deny the cap of 2+, just to delay it. Decap and bunker Engi aren’t “OP” so much as they excel at taking advantage of tiny little points.
Just an angry old man…
Old Man Burr (War), Bad Hat Ben (Engi), Manly Manny Manson (Guard)
It’s not about beating them, it’s that the builds are boring to fight against. Not to mention that the builds that CAN kill them not only don’t kill them fast but are also generally boring as well. As a Warrior if I want to kill a bunker Engi I’d have to run condi Warrior and it still wouldn’t be fast enough. Not to mention Decap Engis that have more pushback than even a Warrior with both Balanced Stance and Dolyak Signet can handle.
This is part of the problem. Engineers need all those knockbacks to counter the warriors with all their stability, cc, and damage. Other classes can’t have their abilities brought down, until warriors themselves are dealt with. Frankly, these build seem like an excellent counter to the warrior meta.
It’s not about beating them, it’s that the builds are boring to fight against. Not to mention that the builds that CAN kill them not only don’t kill them fast but are also generally boring as well. As a Warrior if I want to kill a bunker Engi I’d have to run condi Warrior and it still wouldn’t be fast enough. Not to mention Decap Engis that have more pushback than even a Warrior with both Balanced Stance and Dolyak Signet can handle.
This is part of the problem. Engineers need all those knockbacks to counter the warriors with all their stability, cc, and damage. Other classes can’t have their abilities brought down, until warriors themselves are dealt with. Frankly, these build seem like an excellent counter to the warrior meta.
Warrior’s actually have the easiest time, I just throw on both stability skills and I could even fit Last Stand in if I really needed to.
Just an angry old man…
Old Man Burr (War), Bad Hat Ben (Engi), Manly Manny Manson (Guard)
It’s not about beating them, it’s that the builds are boring to fight against. Not to mention that the builds that CAN kill them not only don’t kill them fast but are also generally boring as well. As a Warrior if I want to kill a bunker Engi I’d have to run condi Warrior and it still wouldn’t be fast enough. Not to mention Decap Engis that have more pushback than even a Warrior with both Balanced Stance and Dolyak Signet can handle.
This is part of the problem. Engineers need all those knockbacks to counter the warriors with all their stability, cc, and damage. Other classes can’t have their abilities brought down, until warriors themselves are dealt with. Frankly, these build seem like an excellent counter to the warrior meta.
What is this warrior meta you talk about. Most teams i see consist of 2+ engis and even most top EU team started to drop warriors and put more engis on their team.
What is this warrior meta you talk about. Most teams i see consist of 2+ engis and even most top EU team started to drop warriors and put more engis on their team.
If anything this is the engi meta we are in.
Funny enough we just got a big tournament on which 128 teams competed, and we can safely conclude that you are wrong.
Engineer was the second least played profession, and Warrior the second most played profession. Especially in the top teams, who would even field double-warrior at times.
Similarly Condition builds were under-represented aswell. So any complaints about either engineers or conditions is just a good indication of the level the complainer plays on. Hint, its not anywhere near the top.
Dashi is kind of right. We’re in a Guardian-Warrior meta for over a year now, Guardians even more promiment then Warriors, but not by much. And this meta spans across the entire game. PvE, WvW and sPvP.
What is this warrior meta you talk about. Most teams i see consist of 2+ engis and even most top EU team started to drop warriors and put more engis on their team.
If anything this is the engi meta we are in.
Funny enough we just got a big tournament on which 128 teams competed, and we can safely conclude that you are wrong.
Engineer was the second least played profession, and Warrior the second most played profession. Especially in the top teams, who would even field double-warrior at times.
Similarly Condition builds were under-represented aswell. So any complaints about either engineers or conditions is just a good indication of the level the complainer plays on, protip, its nowhere near the top.
Those tournaments happened shortly after the patch and the teams were probably not willing to changing up their team compositions. New metas don’t form overnight.
Just an angry old man…
Old Man Burr (War), Bad Hat Ben (Engi), Manly Manny Manson (Guard)
Condi engies tend to lack condition removal (usually have it on healing turret only) and often has ZERO stability. If they take either of those in a greater amount, they kitten their condis.
Its an L2P issue, just like all PvP whines.
“Dear Anet,
Nerf paper! Scissors is fine though.
Sincerely, rock".
No its not a L2p issue, the problem issnt that you cant defeat them..
the problem is HOW to defeat them because it takes waaay to long to defeat them.
First:
You cant stay on capture point because you get kittened around because of there turrets and condi spam bombs etc..
Second:
So you have to keep some distance, this turns into a boring fight where the engi keeps the capture point, at the moment you kill them (If ofc) you are already behind points and the engi is right back in 10 sec.
And I aint complaining about OPness or anything, just saying this makes PVP boring to play.
What is this warrior meta you talk about. Most teams i see consist of 2+ engis and even most top EU team started to drop warriors and put more engis on their team.
If anything this is the engi meta we are in.
Funny enough we just got a big tournament on which 128 teams competed, and we can safely conclude that you are wrong.
Engineer was the second least played profession, and Warrior the second most played profession. Especially in the top teams, who would even field double-warrior at times.
Similarly Condition builds were under-represented aswell. So any complaints about either engineers or conditions is just a good indication of the level the complainer plays on, protip, its nowhere near the top.
Those tournaments happened shortly after the patch and the teams were probably not willing to changing up their team compositions. New metas don’t form overnight.
Sorry that excuse doesnt fly. Engineers were stronger a few patches ago, so if what you said was true then we’d see see a decline from the already abysmal representation in ToL.
Meanwhile Warriors barely got touched and Guardians remained pretty much status quo, really not that many significant changes in general at all. No reason why the Guardian/Warrior meta from last year would suddenly get drastically changed over that patch. And certainly not Engineer favored.
Same with conditions, people have been wailing about a “condition meta” for 9 months atleast now. And lo and behold, conditions outnumbered by power builds. People may not like it as it doesnt fit their propaganda, but the statistics are crystal clear on this matter.
What is this warrior meta you talk about. Most teams i see consist of 2+ engis and even most top EU team started to drop warriors and put more engis on their team.
If anything this is the engi meta we are in.
Funny enough we just got a big tournament on which 128 teams competed, and we can safely conclude that you are wrong.
Engineer was the second least played profession, and Warrior the second most played profession. Especially in the top teams, who would even field double-warrior at times.
Similarly Condition builds were under-represented aswell. So any complaints about either engineers or conditions is just a good indication of the level the complainer plays on, protip, its nowhere near the top.
Those tournaments happened shortly after the patch and the teams were probably not willing to changing up their team compositions. New metas don’t form overnight.
The NA ToL happened late enough for there to be some new variety of a meta…If I remember correctly, it stayed like it has been for the last 9-10 months. Even the “Condition heavy tournament” predictions were proven to be completely wrong( a condition heavy team getting shut down by a support heavy team).
The power/CC meta is going to stay, because it’s what works the best in this games PvP, and that should have been made obvious with this past tournament
In team play Conditions are naturally weaker because Boons and AoE removal counter them somewhat.
This is not the case is “normal”, everyday PvP that people experience in which a single condition dump can wipe them out immediately.
Whatever comps were played in the ToL simply does not affect people in any way and doesn’t really factor into the debate.
Ofcourse it factors into the debate.
You want to nerf Conditions for low-skill tiers, while they are already struggling in high-skill tiers.
If we just nerf them bluntly based on the complaints of players who simply havent learned to play against these builds yet, we are at the same time permanently shutting the door for condition builds in higher levels of play.
You cant sit here and say we’re having a balance debate when you want to exclude a whole group of players’ opinions in the matter, just because they conflict with your opinion.
No its not a L2p issue, the problem issnt that you cant defeat them..
the problem is HOW to defeat them because it takes waaay to long to defeat them.
First:
You cant stay on capture point because you get kittened around because of there turrets and condi spam bombs etc..
Second:
So you have to keep some distance, this turns into a boring fight where the engi keeps the capture point, at the moment you kill them (If ofc) you are already behind points and the engi is right back in 10 sec.
And I aint complaining about OPness or anything, just saying this makes PVP boring to play.
Try fighting warriors who knock you around with ease and then fill you up with conditions or burst. All the while, the tiny bit of damage you can do against them is being passively healed away. That’s boring to play.
This thread is reading like warriors and thieves who believe that their build should not only win against every other build, but should win quickly against every other build. If they can’t, then those builds must be OP.
So we get complains like, they take to long to kill and are boring to play against. It’s just more self requests from bad players who expect their PvP experience to be the same as their PvE experience. As true spoiled children, they threaten to quit, if they don’t get their way.
This thread is reading like warriors and thieves who believe that their build should not only win against every other build, but should win quickly against every other build. If they can’t, then those builds must be OP.
So we get complains like, they take to long to kill and are boring to play against. It’s just more self requests from bad players who expect their PvP experience to be the same as their PvE experience. As true spoiled children, they threaten to quit, if they don’t get their way.
well that post is very helpful..
If I am good or not, pve player or pvp player or whatever… if I am 12 years or 50 years. it doenst matter, fighting those bunker classes issnt fun.
they should do something about it, give them other options or whatever.. how they master capture points is just ridiculous.
It’s a bit depressing how long this game came out and how far we are from a balanced product. They need to stop with the 3 to 6 month patching cycle and get these things fixed timely.
Oh, this is interesting. Considering the “Balance is subjective”-thread, how close or far are we to “balanced product”? How do you measure it? And what direction leads to a more balanced one?
The strength of heart to face oneself has been made manifest. The persona Carighan has appeared.
In team play Conditions are naturally weaker because Boons and AoE removal counter them somewhat.
This is not the case is “normal”, everyday PvP that people experience in which a single condition dump can wipe them out immediately.
Whatever comps were played in the ToL simply does not affect people in any way and doesn’t really factor into the debate.
Ofcourse it factors into the debate.
You want to nerf Conditions for low-skill tiers, while they are already struggling in high-skill tiers.
If we just nerf them bluntly based on the complaints of players who simply havent learned to play against these builds yet, we are at the same time permanently shutting the door for condition builds in higher levels of play.
You cant sit here and say we’re having a balance debate when you want to exclude a whole group of players’ opinions in the matter, just because they conflict with your opinion.
I’m saying balance the game for the 98%, not the 2% who play a tournament once a year.
No game has ever succeeded or even been fun by balancing exclusively for the Top 1% of the player base who also happen to play in a slightly different environment than anyone else (in team-speak, with coordinated builds, with months of collaborative experience etc.)
And by the way, I think AoE condition removal and boon-spam is one of the first things that needs a nerf. Boon-spam in general is probably the biggest contributor the the current lame-kitten bunker meta.
This thread is reading like warriors and thieves who believe that their build should not only win against every other build, but should win quickly against every other build. If they can’t, then those builds must be OP.
So we get complains like, they take to long to kill and are boring to play against. It’s just more self requests from bad players who expect their PvP experience to be the same as their PvE experience. As true spoiled children, they threaten to quit, if they don’t get their way.
well that post is very helpful..
If I am good or not, pve player or pvp player or whatever… if I am 12 years or 50 years. it doenst matter, fighting those bunker classes issnt fun.
they should do something about it, give them other options or whatever.. how they master capture points is just ridiculous.
This is clearly a subjective opinion. I’d much prefer to fight bunkers than instagib professions like thieves and warriors. I don’t find that fun at all. Yet, I’m not asking for them to be nerfed or threatening to leave if they aren’t. Also I am not using the childish argument that claims that everyone feels the same way as me.
I don’t mind them existing. I have more issues with the shoddy balance of risk vs reward and forced Rock Paper Scissors hard counters. Point sustain is similar to lane sustain in LoL and needs to be looked at from that perspective imo.
At the very least a proper interrupt-able heal would make things better. Also in general for all classes I don’t think you should be able to heal (or get healed) while blocking. (similar to the old quickening zypher effect but blocks instead of haste)
“I control time and space; you can’t break free.~” “Maybe I was the illusion all along!”
In team play Conditions are naturally weaker because Boons and AoE removal counter them somewhat.
This is not the case is “normal”, everyday PvP that people experience in which a single condition dump can wipe them out immediately.
Whatever comps were played in the ToL simply does not affect people in any way and doesn’t really factor into the debate.
Ofcourse it factors into the debate.
You want to nerf Conditions for low-skill tiers, while they are already struggling in high-skill tiers.
If we just nerf them bluntly based on the complaints of players who simply havent learned to play against these builds yet, we are at the same time permanently shutting the door for condition builds in higher levels of play.
You cant sit here and say we’re having a balance debate when you want to exclude a whole group of players’ opinions in the matter, just because they conflict with your opinion.
I’m saying balance the game for the 98%, not the 2% who play a tournament once a year.
No game has ever succeeded or even been fun by balancing exclusively for the Top 1% of the player base who also happen to play in a slightly different environment than anyone else (in team-speak, with coordinated builds, with months of collaborative experience etc.)
And by the way, I think AoE condition removal and boon-spam is one of the first things that needs a nerf. Boon-spam in general is probably the biggest contributor the the current lame-kitten bunker meta.
I dont think 98% of the people struggle like you…
You have the ability to get better, get better. We know for a fact this is something that can be entirely overcome by improving your own skill at the game.
If instead of trying to push yourself to be a better player, you just cry to get something nerfed, i think you missed the point of PvP.
If I am good or not, pve player or pvp player or whatever… if I am 12 years or 50 years. it doenst matter, fighting those bunker classes issnt fun.
they should do something about it, give them other options or whatever.. how they master capture points is just ridiculous.
That subjective, i hate fighting silly glasscannons more. Those stupid do-or-die builds, either they instagib you and its gg, or they fail and run away. If they are playing a profession that cant run away, you pop them. 5second fights are dull.
What is this warrior meta you talk about. Most teams i see consist of 2+ engis and even most top EU team started to drop warriors and put more engis on their team.
If anything this is the engi meta we are in.
Funny enough we just got a big tournament on which 128 teams competed, and we can safely conclude that you are wrong.
Engineer was the second least played profession, and Warrior the second most played profession. Especially in the top teams, who would even field double-warrior at times.
Similarly Condition builds were under-represented aswell. So any complaints about either engineers or conditions is just a good indication of the level the complainer plays on, protip, its nowhere near the top.
Those tournaments happened shortly after the patch and the teams were probably not willing to changing up their team compositions. New metas don’t form overnight.
So even though he offered evidence that it is a completely false claim that high end teams used almost no engineers, we are supposed to take the claim seriously based on your random and unsubstantiated conjecture?
It’s not about beating them, it’s that the builds are boring to fight against.
So what? What does whether or not you, as an individual, think it is fun to fight against them, have anything to do with any balance sub forum discussion?
It’s a bit depressing how long this game came out and how far we are from a balanced product. They need to stop with the 3 to 6 month patching cycle and get these things fixed timely.
Oh, this is interesting. Considering the “Balance is subjective”-thread, how close or far are we to “balanced product”? How do you measure it? And what direction leads to a more balanced one?
When you have 8 classes with a viable role in all aspects of the game, balance will be achieved. You don’t need to give every class a way to beat every other class. But you need to at least have something for each class to provide so they aren’t useless.
For example, we have a GWEN meta for WvW right now. If you aren’t one of these 4 classes your role is relegated to that of a yak slapper. But even at that, the GWEN classes do do it too (if not better).
When you have 8 classes with a viable role in all aspects of the game, balance will be achieved. You don’t need to give every class a way to beat every other class. But you need to at least have something for each class to provide so they aren’t useless.
You do have 8 professions with a viable role. Simply because you claim otherwise does not make it true. No professions are useless. Perhaps some builds are, but you are simply making claims that others prove false on a daily basis.
For example, we have a GWEN meta for WvW right now. If you aren’t one of these 4 classes your role is relegated to that of a yak slapper. But even at that, the GWEN classes do do it too (if not better).
You mean a “perceived” meta. All I read here is your regurgitation of other posters comments in an entirely different thread, that you are trying to force us to believe. My personal experience counters this “gwen” *theory, as a whole. Similarly to the poorly perceived so called condition meta everyone claimed dominated sPvP, then when we see competitive tournaments, less then 30% of the players has condition focused damage in their builds.
Out of all of the things running around right now… your complaint is about eng? Wow. How many eng’s do you see in high ranked/tournies? Very few. Wars? 2 on many teams.
When you have 8 classes with a viable role in all aspects of the game, balance will be achieved. You don’t need to give every class a way to beat every other class. But you need to at least have something for each class to provide so they aren’t useless.
For example, we have a GWEN meta for WvW right now. If you aren’t one of these 4 classes your role is relegated to that of a yak slapper. But even at that, the GWEN classes do do it too (if not better).
Well, actually then the game is balanced. Because while G W E N is the core damage / defence (the “meat”, so to say), the other classes each bring unique buff / debuff / utility effects which are improving the power of the total group.
By your account, everyone has a role, and t hey’re all viable, so they’re balanced?
The same applies for PvE btw, though there we have some remaining issues which are more in the NPCs though. Class balance seems ok, only PvE mobs are very spotty, some challenging various aspects, others only asking for AA-spam (which ofc the stackable classes excel at).
The strength of heart to face oneself has been made manifest. The persona Carighan has appeared.
When you have 8 classes with a viable role in all aspects of the game, balance will be achieved. You don’t need to give every class a way to beat every other class. But you need to at least have something for each class to provide so they aren’t useless.
Which is exactly where we are right now, in sPvP, WvW and PvE. That very state is perceived as the problem by most players (as it only provides a way to viably contribute for each class, but doesn’t guarantee that the contribution is stackable or central to the success of the team), but for you specifically, the current status quo is fine then.
Do keep in mind:
You said “viable role”. I think what you meant to say was that you want a “viable” role like Guardians, Warriors or Elementalists have in WvW, where the more the merrier. But that’s not what you said, because for example a Mesmer very much has a viable role in providing Veil, Portal and Feedback.
As per the other thread, defining “viable” is a bit of a tricky thing. Balance is subjective, as is viable. From reading most threads around here, I think people perceive their own death as something they’d like to avoid, but given the human issue with red traffic lights, we perceive a balanced outcome as us losing mostly. This is an issue SC2 fought with really badly in the beginning, that people would perceive a 50/50 situation as them “mostly losing”. Red traffic light :P
I specifically see some issues in PvE with the mobs, not with the classes. Anything which is “larger than a class” is an issue to be solved on the mobs and encounters first. For example, the lack of Necromancer core utility viability in PvE is not actually unique to Necros (they’re just affected more) at all. The issue being a lack of meaningful buffs and debuffs on mobs outside of specialized dungeons, together with a lack of meaningful susceptibility to non-vulnerability debuffs.
The strength of heart to face oneself has been made manifest. The persona Carighan has appeared.
Condi engies tend to lack condition removal (usually have it on healing turret only) and often has ZERO stability. If they take either of those in a greater amount, they kitten their condis.
Its an L2P issue, just like all PvP whines.
“Dear Anet,
Nerf paper! Scissors is fine though.
Sincerely, rock".
It’s not about beating them, it’s that the builds are boring to fight against.
I find guardian bunker/support boring to fight against. And perma evade thieves too.
But I am completely sure that, on the other hand, the owners of both of those above mentioned classes are having fun while palying with those.
Stop looking at things only from your very own perspective.
i’ll tell you a secret too!
one of the most popular bunker engi builds at the moment uses turrets with the reflection shield trait, giving them alot of reflection uptime.
totally countering lich form since you’ll be damaging yourself.
i’ll tell you a secret too!
one of the most popular bunker engi builds at the moment uses turrets with the reflection shield trait, giving them alot of reflection uptime.
totally countering lich form since you’ll be damaging yourself.
If they dont pop Turrets they are weak, so you should easily be able to force the engineer to put down his turrets and thus using up the Reflect. If he doesnt put down his turrets hes basicly fighting you with 1 weapon, no swap, and no utility skills.
THEN you go lich form and roflpop him, while also cleaving and 2shotting all his turrets, that have cooldowns upto 50sec. A cooldown that doesnt start untill after the turret dies.
So players should only play PvP professions that give YOU entertainment and offer YOU a challenge? Narcissist.
Hey, I find Thief players cheesy and boring, even when they kill me. So Nerf Thieves or heck, better yet, make them all warriors and get read of Thieves. kthxbai.
Let me try to reword this thread since I think I can kind of understand what is trying to be said here.
The ability to reuse CC abilities quite frequently, and the ease of use of some (many) of those CC abilities, creates a frustrating gameplay environment that is heavily based in how the conquest game mode functions.
If this is what is actually trying to be said, then while it is an opinion still, it is a much more agreeable statement, and it isn’t class specific, since, of course still an opinion, engineers aren’t the only class who would be main offenders of that statement.
It’s also important to differentiate hard CC and soft CC, since soft CC in general is never really the control type that is being complained about.
