[Elementalist] An elite to solve it all?

[Elementalist] An elite to solve it all?

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Posted by: Zuik.7158

Zuik.7158

The problem with the class is defense. You can say sustain all you like but the reality is it has that. It can spec to heal for ridiculous amounts that make a 1v1 scenario endless.

So why not hit two birds with one stone? Here is the elite I propose to solve the issues.

Signet elite – provides boons similarly to ranger and warrior though we could receive swiftness, protection and stability on use and have vitality as a passive. Perheps 8 seconds of swiftness, stability and protection on a 60 second cd?

I don’t see how this should be considered overpowered. It would open up the signet build options, give the elementalist some on demand defense that can be countered with boon removal and would give us a useful elite that doesn’t force us to play differently when in use. It would also provide d/d eles some benefit when choosing the fight in a cap point for spvp, something that is a major issue currently.

Another option, as suggested by many would be to have an aura on activation that reduces our incoming damage. Ofc something more defensive than frost aura would have to fill this gap. This would not only make use of signet builds but also bring in potential for aura sharing builds. It would also not create huge imbalance through increased boon duration as it would stay unnaffected and therefore would be of full benefit to players using damage specs without the duration which we currently rely on. More feedback please!

Please Anet, at least consider this. I’m sure any of you that play the class as obsessively as I do understand how much this would help solve the balancing issues.

-edited duration values and added swiftness to benefit d/d and reduce stability upkeep, possibility of aura instead?
-passive stat changed to vitality to avoid imbalance through healing and instead provide the needed initial defense

All feedback from experienced players on this proposed skill is much appreciated.

(edited by Zuik.7158)

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Posted by: oZii.2864

oZii.2864

Devils advocate I boost boon duration out to +75%.

17.5 seconds of stability and protection using your suggestion
10.5 seconds of stability and protection from armor of earth.
If I have 10 in earth 10.5 seconds of stability and protection at 50% health.

So 38.5 seconds of stability and protection.

This would most definitely open it up for eles to run lyssa runes also.

Not saying I agree or disagree just my initial thoughts on it’s potential.

[Good Fights]Sinndicate{Ele}Sinactic{Engineer}
Sinnastor{Warrior}Sinnacle{Mesmer}Sintacs
{Thief}

(edited by oZii.2864)

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Posted by: Ross Biddle.2367

Ross Biddle.2367

So you want to make ele’s more warrior-like, because warriors are the shining example of balance in the game at the moment? Passive healing on a signit, with active boons, hmmmm…..

I mean, I like oZii’s devils advocay. If an ele took all that boon duration and pumped out all that stability, I’d love to arcane thievery it off them for my mesmer. So while I have my concerns, sure, lets buff the eles so I can self buff my mesmer.

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Posted by: Zuik.7158

Zuik.7158

Devils advocate I boost boon duration out to +75%.

17.5 seconds of stability and protection using your suggestion
10.5 seconds of stability and protection from armor of earth.
If I have 10 in earth 10.5 seconds of stability and protection at 50% health.

So 38.5 seconds of stability and protection. This would most definitely open it up for eles to run lyssa runes also.

Not saying I agree or disagree just my initial thoughts on it’s potential.

I think the elementalist is one of the classes in most need of stability and protection. Ofc boon duration would be effective but then again so would it be for warrior. The boons are easily removed by a mesmer and necromancer as it’s simply two defensive boons.

I didn’t propose it to be like this to allow insane bunkering builds though it would make them more useful in spvp. I think this would be extremely useful for damage based builds when entering melee or under pressure.

WvW is clearly way beyond balance atm and so the ability to stack boon duration for some awesome roaming shouldn’t be the basis of how to buff the class but the skill would be useful to avoid fast zerging. As for PvE it would be useful in tricky situations when under pressure, simple as that. In spvp it would open up a whole load of potential builds to play and the boon duration comes at a cost of less damage as boon duration isn’t hugely accessible through runes.

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Posted by: Ancient Ranger.3276

Ancient Ranger.3276

Devils advocate I boost boon duration out to +75%.

17.5 seconds of stability and protection using your suggestion
10.5 seconds of stability and protection from armor of earth.
If I have 10 in earth 10.5 seconds of stability and protection at 50% health.

So 38.5 seconds of stability and protection. This would most definitely open it up for eles to run lyssa runes also.

Not saying I agree or disagree just my initial thoughts on it’s potential.

38.5 seconds on a 60 second cool down(with the upcoming update to armor of earth) and with the rune rework I’m pretty sure they won’t leave lyssa as it is. Seeing as most people try to complain about it. But yes I do agree it does seem a little much, with assuming I’m running at least 10 in earth, 30 in arcane, full boon duration runes(not being able to take lyssa).
So your theory with the lyssa runes is a little false As taking lyssa rune only gives you:
13 seconds with Elite
7.75 seconds each for armor of earth trait and cantrip
6.5 seconds with lyssa runes
totaling for 35 second
Making lyssa runes less optimal to run for protection and stability up time.

Edit: 38.5>35 and seeing how Ether Renewal’s cast time is 3.5 seconds I believe the 38.5 compared to the 35 make a very large difference(being that it is also 3.5 seconds).

Éleura Elementalist’s on YB
Elementalist
#Ele

(edited by Ancient Ranger.3276)

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Posted by: Zuik.7158

Zuik.7158

So you want to make ele’s more warrior-like, because warriors are the shining example of balance in the game at the moment? Passive healing on a signit, with active boons, hmmmm…..

I mean, I like oZii’s devils advocay. If an ele took all that boon duration and pumped out all that stability, I’d love to arcane thievery it off them for my mesmer. So while I have my concerns, sure, lets buff the eles so I can self buff my mesmer.

I’m not saying make the class like a warrior. I’m saying give the class what it clearly needs. Besides, that’s just the way signets work and I’m pretty sure a signet elite will be released for the class regardless of my suggestion so why not suggest something that the class needs before it is released?

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Posted by: oZii.2864

oZii.2864

Devils advocate I boost boon duration out to +75%.

17.5 seconds of stability and protection using your suggestion
10.5 seconds of stability and protection from armor of earth.
If I have 10 in earth 10.5 seconds of stability and protection at 50% health.

So 38.5 seconds of stability and protection. This would most definitely open it up for eles to run lyssa runes also.

Not saying I agree or disagree just my initial thoughts on it’s potential.

38.5 seconds on a 60 second cool down(with the upcoming update to armor of earth) and with the rune rework I’m pretty sure they won’t leave lyssa as it is. Seeing as most people try to complain about it. But yes I do agree it does seem a little much, with assuming I’m running at least 10 in earth, 30 in arcane, full boon duration runes(not being able to take lyssa).
So your theory with the lyssa runes is a little false As taking lyssa rune only gives you:
13 seconds with Elite
7.75 seconds each for armor of earth trait and cantrip
6.5 seconds with lyssa runes
totaling for 35 second
Making lyssa runes less optimal to run for protection and stability up time.

Edit: 38.5>35 and seeing how Ether Renewal’s cast time is 3.5 seconds I believe the 38.5 compared to the 35 make a very large difference(being that it is also 3.5 seconds).

Good catch I meant to separate that part meaning that Ele’s could then look to lyssa as a option.

[Good Fights]Sinndicate{Ele}Sinactic{Engineer}
Sinnastor{Warrior}Sinnacle{Mesmer}Sintacs
{Thief}

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Posted by: Ganathar.4956

Ganathar.4956

Imo Eles already rely enough on boons for survival and don’t need to be any more vulnerable to boon removal than they already are. Also warriors already have an elite signet that gives boons so let’s get a bit more creative.

I believe that auras in general can become the main ele defense mechanic if they are buffed a little and made more accessible across the different weapons.
What if we buff some of the existing auras a little bit (like magnetic aura doing SOMETHING against melee) and make an elite signet of auras instead?

For example:

Signet of Auras

Passive: Every time you activate an aura a condition is cleansed and you gain +15% duration on all of your current boons.

Active: Gain shield of the elements for 6 seconds which acts as Fire Shield, Frost Shield, Shocking Aura and Magnetic aura. Shield of the elements would of course look different to the other auras so that it is easily noticeable for the enemy player.

Note that numbers are not final and that this is just an example of what could be done.

(edited by Ganathar.4956)

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Posted by: Carighan.6758

Carighan.6758

I’m saying give the class what it clearly needs.

It does?

The strength of heart to face oneself has been made manifest. The persona Carighan has appeared.

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Posted by: scerevisiae.1972

scerevisiae.1972

I think Ele needs build options that don’t involve cantrips and high water/arcane that don’t melt under pressure like warm butter.

downed state is bad for PVP

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Posted by: Ganathar.4956

Ganathar.4956

I think Ele needs build options that don’t involve cantrips and high water/arcane that don’t melt under pressure like warm butter.

Yup, so a buff to auras and an elite signet dedicated to them could do the trick since auras would not need the water trait line to function well.

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Posted by: Zuik.7158

Zuik.7158

I think Ele needs build options that don’t involve cantrips and high water/arcane that don’t melt under pressure like warm butter.

Exactly. This skill would open up the usefulness of the signet grandmaster trait in earth. It would mean you can take the 10% extra damage in 600 range, 10% damage when endurance is full to benefit in PvE and the 5% against bleeding foes. Plus the grandmaster trait which would give you a constant increase to you health pool and provide sustain throughout the fight and a non water based heal with signet of restoration active and an on use defense from the elite.

Alternately you could take signet reduction traits with the grandmaster trait in spvp, the 10% damage in 600 range. This again would provide some much needed healing outside of water and on demand defense when outside of earth. It would bring signet of air into play as a valuable movement speed buff with a stunbreaker and counter blind skill.

I do agree on what people are saying about auras though, it was my initial thought. Though they would have to create an entirely new aura for this or it would be misleading for pvpers that think that frost aura only reduces 10% damage.

(edited by Zuik.7158)

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Posted by: Carighan.6758

Carighan.6758

Well, what about rebalancing the existent abilities and traits then?

The strength of heart to face oneself has been made manifest. The persona Carighan has appeared.

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Posted by: Zuik.7158

Zuik.7158

Well, what about rebalancing the existent abilities and traits then?

This is a suggestion for the long term balancing. I wouldn’t expect a new elite skill to be released until after the living story season 1 ends at the earliest. I truly hope they have looked at some skills and reworked them a bit though as some are clearly lacking enough to be pointless to use.

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Posted by: Marcos.3690

Marcos.3690

[Elite] Signet of Elements (Cooldown: 50 seconds)

Passive: Reduce your attunement recharge rate by 2 seconds
Active: Recharge all your attunements

This elite would:
1) Finally make the arcana trait line a choice, not a must-have.
2) (Combined with lyssa): Give condition cleanse without heavily speccing into water/arcana
3) Make signet builds viable

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Posted by: oZii.2864

oZii.2864

[Elite] Signet of Elements (Cooldown: 50 seconds)

Passive: Reduce your attunement recharge rate by 2 seconds
Active: Recharge all your attunements

This elite would:
1) Finally make the arcana trait line a choice, not a must-have.
2) (Combined with lyssa): Give condition cleanse without heavily speccing into water/arcana
3) Make signet builds viable

Hmmm I need to mull this over but I feel like this is solid. Makes written in stone look good. I see some synergy with already heavy arcana specs. If your water is up you can get a heal which the Ele is built around. May allow S/x and D/x users to dig into fire.

I think I like this. It would pretty much be the go to elite but FGS still has it uses so not totally overshadowed.

[Good Fights]Sinndicate{Ele}Sinactic{Engineer}
Sinnastor{Warrior}Sinnacle{Mesmer}Sintacs
{Thief}

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Posted by: Marcos.3690

Marcos.3690

[Elite] Signet of Elements (Cooldown: 50 seconds)

Passive: Reduce your attunement recharge rate by 2 seconds
Active: Recharge all your attunements

This elite would:
1) Finally make the arcana trait line a choice, not a must-have.
2) (Combined with lyssa): Give condition cleanse without heavily speccing into water/arcana
3) Make signet builds viable

Hmmm I need to mull this over but I feel like this is solid. Makes written in stone look good. I see some synergy with already heavy arcana specs. If your water is up you can get a heal which the Ele is built around. May allow S/x and D/x users to dig into fire.

I think I like this. It would pretty much be the go to elite but FGS still has it uses so not totally overshadowed.

In my opinion it’s a balanced elite.

You can use the active to survive a burst and heal yourself (or maybe to land a needed updraft or burst) but then you are punished with longer attunement recharge rate that your build isn’t designed for.

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Posted by: Advent.6193

Advent.6193

While the idea of a new Elite, especially one that can serve somewhat to unchain Eles from Arcana dependance, is a good thing … Wouldn’t the class be better served with a proper looksee into its current Elite skills?

  • Elemental Glyph: Sure, the resultant pet can be kinda useful, but … It’s. A. PET.
    Frankly, we all know how hobbled Pet AI is in this game. Hell, the only reason that
    Phantasms work worth a darn is because their entire attack sequence is locked to
    a single target.
  • Tornado: Why is it, that an Ele’s “Transform Elite” is bewilderingly weak vs.enemy
    attacks? I mean seriously: Devs, you’re the same folk who made freaking Plague
    and Lich for Necros (both of which can be hella useful) , but you couldn’t manage
    to help Eles re: Transformations? Honestly, this hurts a guy’s feelings a bit.

The problem, as it currently stands, is that FGS is the “go to” Elite for Elementalists in general. Realistically, we want all class Elites to be equally desirable, just focused for different purposes and/or playstyles.

Malegryne (Sylvari Mesmer), Lannka (Asura Thief) – Ferguson’s Crossing: [PRD/BRB/OMFG]
Other 80s: Any but Warrior

(edited by Advent.6193)

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Posted by: Conncept.7638

Conncept.7638

That doesn’t sound overpowered to me, in fact it sounds a little underpowered and to tell the truth really really boring to use. Anything we could do to make it a little more fun?

And about the aura build, I run my own take on it. If you have two weapon auras and the four signets it actually only takes about 35% boon duration for permanent protection.

(edited by Conncept.7638)

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Posted by: Zuik.7158

Zuik.7158

That doesn’t sound overpowered to me, in fact it sounds a little underpowered and to tell the truth really really boring to use. Anything we could do to make it a little more fun?

And about the aura build, I run my own take on it. If you have two weapon auras and the four signets it actually only takes about 35% boon duration for permanent protection.

I like the idea of it creating a -inc damage aura tbh. Would be extremely useful in group fights when using the water GM trait. As for the fire trait that creates a flame aura, I honestly don’t think it’s worth it as it requires constant use of signets to keep up the buffs rather than smart usage and not all the signets are especially useful. Running all signets and those traits that allow you to spam auras to provide boons to your party that they don’t necessarily need when you could focus on damage instead isn’t fun in slightest imo.

I personally wouldn’t find buffing my party for -inc damage boring, especially with the use of weapon based auras and maybe even tempest defense. The boons from air and earth would also make it valuable if going into tempest defense for consistency.

(edited by Zuik.7158)

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Posted by: Carighan.6758

Carighan.6758

Tornado: Why is it, that an Ele’s “Transform Elite” is bewilderingly weak vs.enemy
attacks? I mean seriously: Devs, you’re the same folk who made freaking Plague
and Lich for Necros (both of which can be hella useful) , but you couldn’t manage
to help Eles re: Transformations? Honestly, this hurts a guy’s feelings a bit.

I find the comparison curious in that Tornado is seen as weak while Plague is seen as strong. Both are nearly the same.

One knocks stuff around and deals direct damage (+ constant whirl finishers), the other constantly applies conditions.

On paper, Tornado should not be weaker. If at all stronger, because it has the finishers. But I know it doesn’t translate into actual in-game power, and I’m curious why. The base damage on Plague seems laughable every time I use it on my Necro, so it can’t be the raw damage amount. It’s weak on both abilities, really. Is the base stat scaling different?

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Posted by: Advent.6193

Advent.6193

It’s not the damage, Carighan, it’s the durability. A Plague or Lich Necro has some nice Health to soak hits with. Also, IIRC, they do gain additional Toughness to work with.
The same does not seem to hold true with Tornado. Hell, if anything, it seems you lose durability while transformed.

Malegryne (Sylvari Mesmer), Lannka (Asura Thief) – Ferguson’s Crossing: [PRD/BRB/OMFG]
Other 80s: Any but Warrior

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Posted by: oZii.2864

oZii.2864

It’s not the damage, Carighan, it’s the durability. A Plague or Lich Necro has some nice Health to soak hits with. Also, IIRC, they do gain additional Toughness to work with.
The same does not seem to hold true with Tornado. Hell, if anything, it seems you lose durability while transformed.

Tornado gives you boosts to your offense and slight HP buff. Tornado is more similar to Lich form then plague.

[Good Fights]Sinndicate{Ele}Sinactic{Engineer}
Sinnastor{Warrior}Sinnacle{Mesmer}Sintacs
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Posted by: P Fun Daddy.1208

P Fun Daddy.1208

It’s not the damage, Carighan, it’s the durability. A Plague or Lich Necro has some nice Health to soak hits with. Also, IIRC, they do gain additional Toughness to work with.
The same does not seem to hold true with Tornado. Hell, if anything, it seems you lose durability while transformed.

Tornado gives you boosts to your offense and slight HP buff. Tornado is more similar to Lich form then plague.

It’s more that anyone near you sees a giant pillar of dust and says, “OMGWTFISTHATKILLIT” and then you’re dead.

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Posted by: Carighan.6758

Carighan.6758

Well in that case, give it the same stat-modifiers as Plague on Necros. I mean they function similar enough that they should probably be kept similar.

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Posted by: Malcastus.6240

Malcastus.6240

[Elite] Signet of Elements (Cooldown: 50 seconds)

Passive: Reduce your attunement recharge rate by 2 seconds
Active: Recharge all your attunements

This elite would:
1) Finally make the arcana trait line a choice, not a must-have.
2) (Combined with lyssa): Give condition cleanse without heavily speccing into water/arcana
3) Make signet builds viable

From a PvP perspective..

It feels weak and odd to be honest. It certainly wouldn’t make signets viable, as you lack condition removal (greatly) and other means of survival.

There is too much dependency on the arcane and water traitlines as is, and with such an elite you would really want to go Elemental Attunement for the boons and 20 water for healing and condition removal. Recharging all your attunements is not going to remove CDs on skills, so that could only be partially handy if you have a skill or two saved up.

Two seconds less recharge time isn’t going to bring you the sustain you need, unless you toss points into arcane and water which can bring you down to around 7 secs attunement recharge. Wouldn’t it be problematic if you want build diversity? Ele bunkers would become pretty strong.

I would love to see signets (and glyphs) become viable in PvP, but this idea advocates builds that delve into water and arcane the most, not cutting the bonds to that sadistically tempting and necessary arcane traitline.

It is not a solid idea to base an elite around a runeset that is about to be revised either, and it would likely force you into using it when you need a lot of conditions removed, working against the idea of resetting the attunements.

In order to fix the ele, I believe that attunement recharge rate needs to be replaced with something else – like a boost to arcane utilities or/and conjured – and and have 9 or 10 secs base recharge, Elemental Attunement needs to become a natural part of the ele which can be empowered in various ways using the traitlines. These are the main issues I think.

TL;DR: Signet of Elements = No thanks, mate.

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Posted by: ArmageddonAsh.6430

ArmageddonAsh.6430

[Elite] Signet of Elements (Cooldown: 50 seconds)

Passive: Reduce your attunement recharge rate by 2 seconds
Active: Recharge all your attunements

This elite would:
1) Finally make the arcana trait line a choice, not a must-have.
2) (Combined with lyssa): Give condition cleanse without heavily speccing into water/arcana
3) Make signet builds viable

Seems very weak to me. I think adding a few things to it could improve it. For me i would:

Passive:
1) Reduce Attunement cool down by 50%

Active:
1) Remove Attunement cool down for X number of seconds (say 5 seconds?)
2) Attunement bonuses last 10 seconds

Make it a Glyph so Glyph reduction and Inscription traits both work on it.

  • Elemental Glyph: Sure, the resultant pet can be kinda useful, but … It’s. A. PET.
    Frankly, we all know how hobbled Pet AI is in this game. Hell, the only reason that
    Phantasms work worth a darn is because their entire attack sequence is locked to
    a single target.

The problem i have with it, it doesnt do THAT much when you consider it is a Elite they are rather Meh. I think it would be better if it was a Transformation that turned you into a big Elemental, though in the way that Lich and Plague Form works and NOT how Tornado works.

  • Tornado: Why is it, that an Ele’s “Transform Elite” is bewilderingly weak vs.enemy
    attacks? I mean seriously: Devs, you’re the same folk who made freaking Plague
    and Lich for Necros (both of which can be hella useful) , but you couldn’t manage
    to help Eles re: Transformations? Honestly, this hurts a guy’s feelings a bit.

I totally agree, for Plague i can just pop say Spectral Armor (7seconds Protection) and jump into Plague and it works really well and is still very strong, Tornado though why doesnt it get the same buffs that Plague gets? Plagues gets – Power, Toughness, Vit i would VERY happily have the Precision removed from Tornado and that turned into Power, Toughness and Vit.

Currently, it is just nothing more than a giant bullseye. Tornado also needs to have a passive effect – Plague gets Poison i think that Tornado needs something.