Guild Wars 2

Taku.6352:

Chaotic Storm.2815:

Zoid.2568:

Elementalist still have the worst survival and they are a light armor class. My main is a Warrior and i have a Necro, Ele and Ranger alt at 80. My Warrior is superior in PvE content.

The Elementalist need a huge buff in survival. They have to sacrifice too much survival to be able to do damage or they have to sacrifice too much damage to be able to survive. Same with Ranger as well. Elementalist still has one of the best supports though. Necro is close to Warrior imo.

Edit: The Evade on Burning Speed is a good buff to Ele survival.

Never understood how that worked. logically as the weaks class defence wise. We should be producing top class dps as a counter balance. yet some how we aren’t.

Except eles have the highest DPS of all classes…

Except when it’s blind immune dredge and Lightning Hammer blind spam won’t save you. Or bosses that ignore blinds altogether like that lovely Archdiviner and Mossman fast melees.

Ele dagger/dagger were designed specifically for this purpose, giving you slightly superior range on a melee weaponset.

Except all ele autoattacks outside staff Fireball are terrible, and their only source of sustained damage is via a conjure supported by 50 traits worth of damage modifiers to do the damage a warrior approaches far more easily, requiring less group support, and having more flexibility.

Zenith.7301:

Except when it’s blind immune dredge and Lightning Hammer blind spam won’t save you. Or bosses that ignore blinds altogether like that lovely Archdiviner and Mossman fast melees.

Ele dagger/dagger were designed specifically for this purpose, giving you slightly superior range on a melee weaponset.

Except all ele autoattacks outside staff Fireball are terrible, and their only source of sustained damage is via a conjure supported by 50 traits worth of damage modifiers to do the damage a warrior approaches far more easily, requiring less group support, and having more flexibility.

I completely agree with first two paragraphs, I hate lh playstyle. But the best autoattack is lightning whip, fireball hits almost twice as weak though it’s much safer to use.

I think fireball also has no cleave limit though whereas lightning whip is only 3 targets max?

I just wish they made all attunements have good autoattack damage, especially the wimpy water and earth ones (though fire is still pretty bad outside staff).

The whole appeal of the ele was the thought of variety, yet in practice what we got is cycle out of all elements outside fire as soon as you can, and even then fire’s kinda meh outside the staff so people bring you for the conjure cheese like FGS on a wall or abusing frost bow for the #4 on large hit box targets.

I miss my gw1 ele.

Elementalist is the example of all that is wrong with anet balancing.

Skills have been nerfed costantly.

Traits have been buffed.

That is why you get some dps only if you totally trait offensively (also need multihit to get the most from traits and slow heavy hitting skills becomes useless), but when you just miss one or two of those traits your DPS falls back between the worst in the game.

Aside that, such system hurts build diversity….
And the sad part is the feature patch will destroy even more balanced builds…..
(rune, sigil and ferocity changes will hit ele the most across the board).

Seems they didn t learn anthing from the past.

Zenith.7301:

I think fireball also has no cleave limit though whereas lightning whip is only 3 targets max?

I just wish they made all attunements have good autoattack damage, especially the wimpy water and earth ones (though fire is still pretty bad outside staff).

The whole appeal of the ele was the thought of variety, yet in practice what we got is cycle out of all elements outside fire as soon as you can, and even then fire’s kinda meh outside the staff so people bring you for the conjure cheese like FGS on a wall or abusing frost bow for the #4 on large hit box targets.

I miss my gw1 ele.

Both fireball and lightning whip have 3 target limit cleave.

If the PVE meta reward supports, it might work but unfortunately it doesn’t. The loot system itself shows how much Anet values Damage over Support. If you choose to be a support Ele, expect to get green or yellow loot bags. Going full zerker would still be faster. If people would want any “support” class, it would be Guardians for on-demand boon sharing and projectile reflects.

The only dungeon where I see support Eles would work is High Level Fractals.

Zoid.2568:

Elementalist still have the worst survival and they are a light armor class. My main is a Warrior and i have a Necro, Ele and Ranger alt at 80. My Warrior is superior in PvE content.

As someone who plays all of these professions except the ranger (and really seeks to become as good as possible at them), the Elementalist have the best survivability, once you’ve spent a relatively vast amount of time actually learning the profession to its fullest.

The Warrior doesn’t even come close once you’re “fairly good” at the Elementalist. Problem is, that even that takes quite a lot of time.

Phadde.7362:

Zoid.2568:

Elementalist still have the worst survival and they are a light armor class. My main is a Warrior and i have a Necro, Ele and Ranger alt at 80. My Warrior is superior in PvE content.

As someone who plays all of these professions except the ranger (and really seeks to become as good as possible at them), the Elementalist have the best survivability, once you’ve spent a relatively vast amount of time actually learning the profession to its fullest.

The Warrior doesn’t even come close once you’re “fairly good” at the Elementalist. Problem is, that even that takes quite a lot of time.

Yeah, I don’t know what you’re smoking. Mathematically, healing signet is the highest constant healing throughput ingame. If you’re having survival troubles on your warrior with a 18k hp base pool, a built in dodge on your greatsword attack, and a heal that actually passively outheals active cast heals with a cooldown, you’re doing something seriously wrong.

You just think ele survival is good because either your blind spam works on trash or you’re hiding behind a reflect wall. Once you are facing bosses whose hits you have to eventually tank if you don’t range, like Mossman or Archdiviner, you’ll actually know what survivability means.

Zenith.7301:

Yeah, I don’t know what you’re smoking. Mathematically, healing signet is the highest constant healing throughput ingame. If you’re having survival troubles on your warrior with a 18k hp base pool, a built in dodge on your greatsword attack, and a heal that actually passively outheals active cast heals with a cooldown, you’re doing something seriously wrong.

You just think ele survival is good because either your blind spam works on trash or you’re hiding behind a reflect wall. Once you are facing bosses whose hits you have to eventually tank if you don’t range, like Mossman or Archdiviner, you’ll actually know what survivability means.

“If you’re having survival troubles on your warrior”
Definitely not, but (i.e.) if your group wipes with you still on your feet, suddenly your survivability becomes a dire issue. Point is, the ability to survive can be estimated while playing through such harsh moments with different professions or builds

Have you ever played an Elementalist? (Or more importantly, @ 80 for a few dozen hours?) You’re making a brittle case.

Phadde.7362:

Zenith.7301:

Yeah, I don’t know what you’re smoking. Mathematically, healing signet is the highest constant healing throughput ingame. If you’re having survival troubles on your warrior with a 18k hp base pool, a built in dodge on your greatsword attack, and a heal that actually passively outheals active cast heals with a cooldown, you’re doing something seriously wrong.

You just think ele survival is good because either your blind spam works on trash or you’re hiding behind a reflect wall. Once you are facing bosses whose hits you have to eventually tank if you don’t range, like Mossman or Archdiviner, you’ll actually know what survivability means.

“If you’re having survival troubles on your warrior”
Definitely not, but (i.e.) if your group wipes with you still on your feet, suddenly your survivability becomes a dire issue.

Have you ever played an Elementalist? (Or more importantly, @ 80 for a few dozen hours?) You’re making a brittle case.

Um, I play berserker conjure meta, I don’t need you to lecture me on the kind of cheese, lame tactics you use to disguise the fact that your innate survival is zero.

Again, just because your survivability gets carried by a guardian and blind spam on mere trash that is not blind immune, does not mean ele survival is alright.

But by all means shows us a video of how well your ele melees a high fractal, 50 preferably archdiviner or mossman without guardians spamming aegis/reflect on your sorry kitten . Ditto for dredge.

P.S. Everyone’s survivability becomes a dire issue when their group dies in any situation when mobs can hit you for 4k an autoattack and bosses even more.

@ Zenith: I’ll agree to disagree; It doesn’t seem like I was able to make you understand what I meant, and I don’t believe that a further discussion will lead us anywhere.

Edit: I noticed that you mention Conjure… Which build do you play? I love Evasive Arcana and everything that it brings to the table, and I actually barely ever play without it. Rest of the Traits is mostly spend in Air magic.

Perhaps we’re different views because we play different builds?

Elementalist survivability is fine given how powerful they are. They are the epitome of glass cannon, it works, and it’s awesome. Arcane Shield is more than I need already, anyway.

Phadde.7362:

@ Zenith: I’ll agree to disagree; It doesn’t seem like I was able to make you understand what I meant, and I don’t believe that a further discussion will lead us anywhere.

Edit: I noticed that you mention Conjure… Which build do you play? I love Evasive Arcana and everything that it brings to the table, and I actually barely ever play without it. Rest of the Traits is mostly spend in Air magic.

Perhaps we’re different views because we play different builds?

Evasive Arcana is not a DPS build.

We’re talking at least 25 points in fire, 20 in water for 10% extra damage avbove 90% health and 20% extra damage on vulnerable targets, and at least 10 in air for bolt to the heart. Another 10 on earth for the extra damage when within 600 range from target.

Zenith.7301:

Evasive Arcana is not a DPS build.

We’re talking at least 25 points in fire, 20 in water for 10% extra damage avbove 90% health and 20% extra damage on vulnerable targets, and at least 10 in air for bolt to the heart. Another 10 on earth for the extra damage when within 600 range from target.

It is not part of a full out offensive build as you’ve described. I can see Elementalists being very fragile in such a build.

I don’t think it’s very reasonable to say that Elementalists have the worst survival, just because that might be true if you build like this, when the opposite is true if you use (i.e.) 30 in Arcana (which is by no means a “defensive” tree) while spending the rest of the traits offensively.

Once they remove cheesy fgs, ele will be relatively weak to the amount of work you have to do. Going up against fractal bosses like mossman or archdiviner without guardians spamming aegis and protection is already painful enough and arcane shield is a joke skill, 3 blocks on 75s cd.

Phadde.7362:

I don’t think it’s very reasonable to say that Elementalists have the worst survival, just because that might be true if you build like this, when the opposite is true if you use (i.e.) 30 in Arcana (which is by no means a “defensive” tree) while spending the rest of the traits offensively.

Ok how about this – ele’s have the worst ratio of survival vs damage output. No matter how much survivability you build for, there is another class which can achieve better survivability WHILE having decent damage.
I don’t even know this is a matter of question. Ele’s have the lowest health+armor and virtually nothing to make up for it. No stealth, no clones, no blocks (arcane shield is a joke), no multi-evades, no mobility (ride the lightning hahahaha), nothing. Ele’s absolutely NEED 15k base health, it’s not up for debate. It’s just not.

haviz.1340:

I completely agree with first two paragraphs, I hate lh playstyle. But the best autoattack is lightning whip, fireball hits almost twice as weak though it’s much safer to use.

Umm fireball is balanced around having lava font + flame burst on the target….throw in meteor and it completely DESTROYS lightning whip spam in dps.
Lightning whip’s main advantage is mobility, much easier to hit moving mobs with. But on a stationary mob nothing beats staff fire or might-stacked S/D.

D/D is never a good option for PvE unless you are solely after mobile DPS and handling like a melee class (which zero survivability to back it up).

Except that you now compare using one skill to two skills. Both builds, d/f and staff, have very similar offensive capabilities yet one is kittening boring to play.

Wintel.4873

Umm fireball is balanced around having lava font + flame burst on the target….throw in meteor and it completely DESTROYS lightning whip spam in dps.
Lightning whip’s main advantage is mobility, much easier to hit moving mobs with. But on a stationary mob nothing beats staff fire or might-stacked S/D.

D/D is never a good option for PvE unless you are solely after mobile DPS and handling like a melee class (which zero survivability to back it up).

I don’t think he needs you lecturing him about that; he’s likely got far more hours than you on the ele, and I know him to have done plenty of fractal work.

A boss in fractals will barely be standing reliably on all your lava fonts anyways, and this was a comparison about AUTOATTACKS. I don’t think he denies therelative strength of the fire staff skillset.

The point is that an ele needs to dedicate over 50 traitpoints, be made of toilet paper, and not even use his weapons in favor of conjure utilities to even start competing with classes who have a much lower barrier of entry to high DPS.

That is, if you’re not using conjures, you aren’t competing with Warriors or Guardians. Which are pretty much functional off the gate, and the advantage of a LH ele over a warrior isn’t that high when we take into account DPS contribution from banners and the warrior himself, while the ele virtually gives up every thing to just do competitive DPS.

His attunements are completely locked out while you use conjures, and if you need to support your group with heals or fire fields from your mainhand weapons, it means losing/not using conjures in that time frame and essentially doing significantly less DPS while all the warrior and guardian need to do to help their team immensely is some quickly dropped ground utilities while they continue to do their average DPS rotations with their own weapons.

Zenith.7301:

I don’t think he needs you lecturing him about that; he’s likely got far more hours than you on the ele, and I know him to have done plenty of fractal work.

A boss in fractals will barely be standing reliably on all your lava fonts anyways, and this was a comparison about AUTOATTACKS. I don’t think he denies therelative strength of the fire staff skillset.

The point is that an ele needs to dedicate over 50 traitpoints, be made of toilet paper, and not even use his weapons in favor of conjure utilities to even start competing with classes who have a much lower barrier of entry to high DPS.

That is, if you’re not using conjures, you aren’t competing with Warriors or Guardians. Which are pretty much functional off the gate, and the advantage of a LH ele over a warrior isn’t that high when we take into account DPS contribution from banners and the warrior himself, while the ele virtually gives up every thing to just do competitive DPS.

His attunements are completely locked out while you use conjures, and if you need to support your group with heals or fire fields from your mainhand weapons, it means losing/not using conjures in that time frame and essentially doing significantly less DPS while all the warrior and guardian need to do to help their team immensely is some quickly dropped ground utilities while they continue to do their average DPS rotations with their own weapons.

Knock it off with the “got more hours on Ele” assumptions, you don’t know me and I don’t care who he is, stop speaking on his behalf.

Would be extremely helpful if this game had DPS meters to give any remote idea of how classes perform compared to each other instead of people just throwing around vague hints.

Wintel.4873:

Zenith.7301:

I don’t think he needs you lecturing him about that; he’s likely got far more hours than you on the ele, and I know him to have done plenty of fractal work.

A boss in fractals will barely be standing reliably on all your lava fonts anyways, and this was a comparison about AUTOATTACKS. I don’t think he denies therelative strength of the fire staff skillset.

The point is that an ele needs to dedicate over 50 traitpoints, be made of toilet paper, and not even use his weapons in favor of conjure utilities to even start competing with classes who have a much lower barrier of entry to high DPS.

That is, if you’re not using conjures, you aren’t competing with Warriors or Guardians. Which are pretty much functional off the gate, and the advantage of a LH ele over a warrior isn’t that high when we take into account DPS contribution from banners and the warrior himself, while the ele virtually gives up every thing to just do competitive DPS.

His attunements are completely locked out while you use conjures, and if you need to support your group with heals or fire fields from your mainhand weapons, it means losing/not using conjures in that time frame and essentially doing significantly less DPS while all the warrior and guardian need to do to help their team immensely is some quickly dropped ground utilities while they continue to do their average DPS rotations with their own weapons.

Knock it off with the “got more hours on Ele” assumptions, you don’t know me and I don’t care who he is, stop speaking on his behalf.

Would be extremely helpful if this game had DPS meters to give any remote idea of how classes perform compared to each other instead of people just throwing around vague hints.

OK, so you think that after 1.5 years nobody has figured out the DPS potential of classes. Cool.

The point is, pointing out Lava Font in a discussion about autoattacks contributes nothing. On a moving opponent or something like Archdiviner, where he’s constantly chasing after someone, your major source of sustained damage is the autoattacks.

You could always use something like glyph of elemental power in earth attunement to permanently cripple bosses like the archdiviner, it makes lava font more reliable. But who would care about stuff like that, after all controls are useless.