Guild Wars 2

I have recently seen the results of the January live stream that discussed possible balance changes in the next feature build. I am concerned about the slated nerfs to the engineer. If you did not see, net turret’s immobilize is to become 2 s instead of 3, and and poison grenades field will only stack 3 seconds instead of 5.

I am concerned because the reasoning Arena Net has given for these nerfs is based on certain situations, but the nerfs affect many other situations.

For the net turret nerf, they stated that it was to lower the amount of lockdown due to supply crate. Nerfing net turret in general accomplishes this, but I am worried that nerfing net turret in general was not intended. If it seems that net turret on its own is too strong, then this is alright, but otherwise it seems odd to me that they are attacking supply crate by nerfing all net turrets, even the separate utility skill. If net turret on its own is not too strong, I hope that the change only affects the net turret spawned by supply crate.

For the poison grenade nerf, they stated it was intended to lower the amount of poison put on by “Shotgunning” the grenades such that someone was standing on three fields at once. However, this nerfs poison grenades in all other situations as well – as an area denial tool or by spreading them to affect more than just one or two targets. Again, if poison grenades are too strong in these situations then the nerf is justified, but if this is not the case, then I hope that other changes are adopted such that the fields are less effective when shotgunned but equally as effective when not used in this manner.

both nerfs address abusive gameplay. theyre justified.

hopefully other weak things about engi get fixes/buffs too. ie turrets, gadgets.

insanemaniac.2456:

both nerfs address abusive gameplay. theyre justified.

hopefully other weak things about engi get fixes/buffs too. ie turrets, gadgets.

These are justified in one particular gamemode.

But they are applied to every single gamemode.

That is the problem. WvW and PvE Engineers are going to get nerfed, despite actually needing buffs. Simply because of something that happens in the vaccuum of the incredibly niche play that is sPvP.

Capture point gamemode is a niche, a gimmick. Two small teams fight over control of small capture areas.
And that is what they use as a template to balance everything else. And i for one am completely and totally sick of this gamebalance approach.

I’m not overly concerned with those nerfs. With just 50% in condi duration, you can boost everything back to its original state. All you need is 10 points in power + 40% from rare veggie pizza and you’re back to normal. If you’re going to go grenadier, you can even use less expensive food for just that 20% condi duration. Poison IMO is irrelevant since most condis are cleansed anyway. Plus if you manage to shotgun it with the grenadier trait, it’s 2×3 = 6s poison per second in the field. 6s poison is not all that bad, plus all you have to do is immob the guy and then lay down the poison field. He’ll have enough poison to last the rest of the fight (assuming no cleanse). The immob however is pretty dirty. Even with the nerf, we can still lock down someone for a long period of time.

Rifle net shot: 2s
Riffle blunderbuss: ~3s
Net turret toolbelt: 2s
Net turret: 2s
Supply drop: 1s stun + net turret
And add any extra like Big Ol’ Bomb, mines, or battering ram.

If you wanted to dedicate to lock downs, you can go for 110% condi duration. Just double those times! It’s crazy, you would totally cause someone to rage quit.

Poison grenade nerf is justified across all modes simply because it can apply 30+ seconds of poison with one throw.

Net turret on the other hand is not justified by any means. Simply put, the net turret when it is summoned may fire while the person is stunned because luck would place it facing the target. If that happens, the immobilization will tick through the stun. Currently it becomes a 1 second immobilization if that happens so it still has some use now. Otherwise with this change it won’t even be noticed after the stun effect.

Yoshifxe.8346:

Poison grenade nerf is justified across all modes simply because it can apply 30+ seconds of poison with one throw.

It can under specific circumstances, one of which being that the target remains immobile in the poison field.

If thats the level of inactivity we balance things around, essentially a target dummy, then the list of abilities that should get nerfed should be a looooot longer.

If i 100b someone, and that person just sits there and lets it happen, i outright kill him. Not stack a long, but weak, condition thats easily cleansed before it runs its full duration. No, dead.
If i meteor shower on a group of enemies, and they just sit there… well, i hope they packed their bags…

But if someone isnt braindead and actually avoids something these abilities are far less powerful, and the same applies to poison grenade. It doesnt need to be nerfed in pve and wvw. And yet, here we are.

Terrahero.9358:

…

hmm.. so somehow you think these nerfs even matter in pve? why?

you dont need lockdown in pve. i dont even bother using crate for the most part, much less ever slot net turret.

aaaand you can perma poison anyways in pve. you can still shotgun poison nades on cd and get 30+ secs of poison on a stupid mob that doesnt step aside.

and as for wvw… lol, its aimed at wvw just as much as spvp.

Condition engineers poison skills:
Nades
Pistol
Elixir gun

all with very low CD and AOE

The poison nerf I get. Fine with the impending change.

The Net Turret nerf, not so much. If Supply Crate is the issue, change Supply Crate. Not the individual Net Turret. That’s just lazy coding imo.

I don’t agree with the poison grenade nerf as well, instead. First, poison is dealt over time, that means people are just supposed to move out of the area affected. If that’s a problem in PvP, just nerf it in pvp.
And second, and actually more important, is that they’re yet again using the (grandmaster) traited version as the base one as far as balancing goes. Making the untraited, real base version even more subpar.
And that’s just nonsensical.

Surprised incendiary powder isnt getting a nerf. That trait does 4200 damage for me in pvp.

insanemaniac.2456:

Terrahero.9358:

…

hmm.. so somehow you think these nerfs even matter in pve? why?

you dont need lockdown in pve. i dont even bother using crate for the most part, much less ever slot net turret.

aaaand you can perma poison anyways in pve. you can still shotgun poison nades on cd and get 30+ secs of poison on a stupid mob that doesnt step aside.

and as for wvw… lol, its aimed at wvw just as much as spvp.

Nerf is a nerf.

And i still insist its not a problem in WvW. The only time you get to really stack large amounts of poison is on an enemy zerg, which is quickly cleansed anyway.
But even if it fully ticks, its not exactly more dangerous or damaging then other long-cd aoe attacks.

I’ll repeat what i said before, eating a poison grenade is preferable over eat something like 100b or meteor shower. So are these abilities going to get nerfed aswell then?

Sry dudes, but every class is a victim of ANets “Let’s balance all modes together” position.
As long as they dont change their minds, we can discuss about the balance patches for eternity.

I find the thing they’re doing with the Turret bugfixes more concerning, personally. See, here’s an excerpt of what Karl McLain wrote in this thread:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/Feature-Build-Balance-Preview/page/16#post3667926

Here’s a few more changes we’ll be including for the next feature build:

Engineer:
We’ve fixed a lot of turret issues that were causing them to behave poorly or inconsistently (many of these issues have been reported via the bug forums, thanks guys!) In the coming patch, you’ll see quite a few improvements in this area. For example:
• Fixed the bug that was causing all turrets to have a lower rate of fire than intended.
• Fixed the bug that was preventing the overcharge for the Rifle Turret from increasing its rate of fire.

They’re not implementing bugfixes to a skillset direly in need of them until the feature patch.

I’d really like to know why. Oh, and how long it’ll be.

Unfortunately, May 31st is likely to be the soonest possible date for it, given that they don’t want to implement the Feature Patch during WvW Season 2, which ends May 30th.

These bugs have been known for more than seven months, and by the time May rolls around, it’ll have been more than nine months that they’ve known of the issues, and about three months after they said they fixed some of the issues.
What is the purpose of waiting three more months?
Is making a skillset function closer to properly now seen as a buff?

They’re also holding bugfixes to several other classes, which honestly kind of irritates me for very similar reasons – are they terrified that making something function the way it should will unbalance things?
Are they declaring things fixed, and then running QA, and hoping nobody thinks it’s a little strange that they apparently want to wait to implement some much-needed fixes?

best bet for why is red tape from upper management.

and id bet on 4/1 or 4/8 for the feature patch. theres a reason theyre doing 3 ready ups in a row and its unlikely theyd tell us “were finally ready to talk about the feature patch” unless its ready to deploy. 4/1 is 2 weeks away, in the normal patch cycle.

insanemaniac.2456:

best bet for why is red tape from upper management.

and id bet on 4/1 or 4/8 for the feature patch. theres a reason theyre doing 3 ready ups in a row and its unlikely theyd tell us “were finally ready to talk about the feature patch” unless its ready to deploy. 4/1 is 2 weeks away, in the normal patch cycle.

This has been one of my suspicions since I saw that Cameron Dunn GDC Lecture in which he demonstrated that anyone can kick (upload) a build using the Arenanet Duo system, which I referenced in my other thread. Credence to this theory is also reinforced by Tyler Chapman’s Posts in the Mesmer bug list thread in which bug fixes have been declared, yet were with-held from the March 18th “maintenance” patch:

1. Fixed
2. Fixed feature build
3. Complicated, technically terrain related bugs. All classes have this issue to some extent.
4. Working as intended. Good topic for debate on changing in the future.
5. Deceptive evasion clones attack closest target, otherwise no repro.
6. Fixed some while after feature build “logged”
7. Fixed feature build
8. Intended, same reason as los…Counter-play.
9. Intended, follows standardized shadowstepping rules. No repro otherwise.
10. Fixed some while after feature build “logged”
11. Fixed some while after feature build “logged”
12. Intended. Those skills bounce to allies and only grant the POSITIVE effects “boons” its not attached to reflect. (Trick: use your reflect to grant extra bounces:D:D)
13. Fixed in feature build
14. Server-side, can’t fix at this time. “Lag related” Blame living world updates
15. Intended. This is how projectile/missile “tracking” works.
16. Fixed
17. Intended. All ranged and melee skills have a 15% buffer range to take account for tracking.
18. Fixed on feature build if not on live.
19/20 Intended. Shouldn’t be able to utilize both at the same time.
21. Globally intended. Buffer range.
22. Intended. Current trait system swaps to different versions of skills from traits, which can trigger weird recharge issues. Such as that one with glamour CD. I wanna say that bug is fixed in the feature build but it’s a weird repro.
23. Fixed some while after feature build “logged”
24. Some issues regarding this fixed in feature build
25. Intended
26. Fixed in feature build
27. Fixed in feature build

Hope that helps

Again, this is an ongoing problem of Arenanet’s stance on bugfixing and it’s something that the community should push for Arenanet to change.

On topic, I do find the proposed changes of reducing Immobilise duration on Net Turret + Supply crate to be off-base, when the issue is clearly Immobilise stacking in duration causing the issue, followed by Engineer’s massive condition diversity allowing easy coverage of the Immobilise. Many classes also lack a targeted cleanse of Immobilise as well, which is a secondary reason why Immobilise is so strong.

With regard to Grenade Kit “shotgunning” of Grenades – this has been an issue since GK became one of the “meta” Engineer kits. The issue has always been pinpoint accuracy at point blank allowing Engineers to Triple stack Poison Fields, or Triple Chill (brutal against Elementalist due to Steel Packed Powder +/- Incendiary Powder procs), or Triple 12 second Bleed. Pinpoint accuracy at point blank was also the reason why 100nades was so strong pre-nerf, as even if the double Barrage did not 100-0 a target, the Shrapnel Grenades with their high power Coefficient certainly would, and Poison Grenade shotgunning precluded healing.

These problems will persist until Arenanet stops treating the symptom and instead targets the problem by inverting Grenade accuracy such that minimum spread is obtained at max range – makes 1500 range casting onto point less potent but no less deadly if it hits – and maximum spread is obtained at minimum range – precluding Triple Poison or Triple Chill. This would force Grenadiers into mid-range – 300-900 units. The skill cap required would increase, which would then possibly justify a baseline buff of Grenades to 3 Grenades thrown as base, with the Grenadier trait simply increasing Condition duration and/or a damage bonus no larger than 10% total across 3 grenade hits.

It is almost impossible to fix an abuse and not harm some justified use of a skill etc.
Not to mention it would take so much longer to make those kind of adjustments.

The net lost is minimal. The net gained from stopping the silliness is significant.

Please proceed ANet (says the engineer).

I would have them spend more time on simple fixes. Remember, there are 8 classes and 3-4 game modes to balance. Quick and dirty beats slow and tedious.

MonMalthias.4763:

These problems will persist until Arenanet stops treating the symptom and instead targets the problem by inverting Grenade accuracy such that minimum spread is obtained at max range – makes 1500 range casting onto point less potent but no less deadly if it hits – and maximum spread is obtained at minimum range – precluding Triple Poison or Triple Chill. This would force Grenadiers into mid-range – 300-900 units. The skill cap required would increase, which would then possibly justify a baseline buff of Grenades to 3 Grenades thrown as base, with the Grenadier trait simply increasing Condition duration and/or a damage bonus no larger than 10% total across 3 grenade hits.

And making it mostly useless if you aren’t in that “mid-range”, as either it would be extremely inaccurate (melee range) or extremely easy to dodge (higher range, due to the combination of reduced spread + travel time…the enemies can just walk out of the red circle).
And that’s putting aside that it doesn’t even make sense for a projectile to spread like you propose.

And they’re already balancing the whole weapon upon having 3 grenades, anyway. So, if anything, we should already have them as the baseline. No other weapon or utility in the game is being balanced on the assumption of being traited, after all.

The simple truth is that there shouldn’t be such a trait as grenadier to begin with – as is, grandmaster traits working on a single weapon. Because such a trait must necessarily provide strong effects, and assuming the base weapon is balanced to begin with, it will end up making it unbalanced.
The solution they continue to follow is to nerf the base weapon – making it subpar – to have a balanced traited one. It doesn’t make sense – a weapon should be balanced to begin with, and if the problem is the trait, they should just adjust the trait. If the adjusted trait isn’t worth of a grandmaster trait, then make it a master one.
And that’s something they should have done when designing the class.

lockdown is huge in pve small teams that need to lock champions in place ya know like oh idk frigging fractals?

here’s why this nerf irks me tho

supply crate+net turret = imbalanced (just how…?)

but thiefs being able to permanently stealth blind and instantaneously kill or teleport without cd all over the place is balanced?

my favorite:Warriors locking you down with hammer knocking and stunning spam and the immob on cripple trait is Perfectly fine you know skills you can use at any time while mobile unlike turrets? Balanced

necromancers hitting through wvw walls with shroud 4 skill is perfectly balanced

elementalists obliterating zergs with meteor+tornado is perfectly fine too

the condi nerf on engi is flat out stupid and heres why in order for the shotgunned poison grenades to stack insane duration of poison the target has to remains motionless wich makes you think well there ya have it thats why net turret gettin nerfed but then theres point b supply crate and net combo only work on single target combat and if your opponent does not know what a condi cleanse is nor stun breaker

who the heck dies to just poison tho?

Grenade Kit is easy to fix, needs a much wider spread. IMO, it could easily fix all the issues if Grenades were for area saturation, but little else.

So basically, can throw at 1200 range, targets a 600 diameter circle with 2 or 3 grenades. You’ll hit stuff, sure. But there better be enough there.

In turn, I’d make the individual effects stronger, current kit seems balanced around the idea of 3 grenades hitting at all times, which is garbage. I’d balance it around a single grenade.

I dont see a problem with grenades being stronger point blank. This fits perfectly in the whole premise that melee is more damage and more risk, and ranged is less damage and less risk.
Its represented in the grenade kit. Point blank you get best use out of it, but it means whatever you are fighting is right next to you. At range you’ll get less use out of it, but you are as much as 1500 range away from what you are fighting.

And the ease at landing a grenade goes up just as the risk goes up. I think thats actually one of the concepts that works very well in the grenadekit.
The big issue is related to how a single trait buffs the entire effectiveness of the Grenadekit by 50%! 50% more damage, more condition damage, more debuff duration and a 25% increase in range.
As a result the baseline grenadekit is pretty poor.

Where does Grenadekit start becomming a problem? In a highly gimmicky gamemode thats entirely centered around standing on, and pushing enemies out of, small capture points.
I’ll be kitten ed if we balance the whole game around this incredibly niche, completely uncomparative gamemode that attracts a minority of the players.

Terrahero.9358:

Where does Grenadekit start becomming a problem? In a highly gimmicky gamemode thats entirely centered around standing on, and pushing enemies out of, small capture points.
I’ll be kitten ed if we balance the whole game around this incredibly niche, completely uncomparative gamemode that attracts a minority of the players.

Fair point really, sPvP – and smallscale PvP as a whole – is a very niche game mode in GW2. Shouldn’t figure too much into total balance really.

Bombsaway.7198:

I would have them spend more time on simple fixes. Remember, there are 8 classes and 3-4 game modes to balance. Quick and dirty beats slow and tedious.

And Warrior beats all that.

The Net Turret was niche enough despite my love for it, there’s no need for more reasons to just fly above this utility skill.