Guild Wars 2

Gadgets are quirky, Engineer-like and fun.

They’re just not competitively strong, or are able to fit into many builds due to the Engineer’s design.

In April 2014 there was an actual Gadget affecting trait added.. increasing that to a grand total of two.

The only problem is that it’s severely undertuned, so much that it’s worse than many notable adept traits, as a grandmaster, even when using 2 Gadgets.

I simply propose a mega buff to this trait, befitting the granddaddy of all Gadget traits.

Current: Gadgeteer: Gadgets grant additional boons on use.

• A.E.D – 3 Seconds of Retaliation.
• Personal Battering Ram – 5 Seconds of Fury
• Rocket Boots – 4 Seconds of Vigor
• Slick Shoes – 8 Seconds of Regeneration
• Throw Mine – 6 Seconds of Aegis
• Utility Goggles – 8 Seconds of Might(5)

Proposed: Gadgeteer: Gadgets grant additional powerful effects.

• A.E.D – Regenerate Health when A.E.D is available. Effect ends while A.E.D is recharging. (117 Healing per Second)
• Personal Battering Ram – Hit up to 5 enemies, removing stability from those affected.
• Rocket Boots – Now breaks stun.
• Slick Shoes – Increased radius of oil slicks.
• Throw Mine – Mine Field is now ground targeted with 900 range. Multiple Red AoE indicators are placed at the start of the cast.
• Utility Goggles – Edit Converts all damaging conditions into boons for 3 seconds (thanks Phaeton).

Go go gadget build diversity. The stunbreaks can actually be good, and Mine Field can be a hell of a nuke for Engineers that favor Berserker.

Discuss new #GadgetMeta

how about giving additional recharge time reduce on top of that?

i.e.
Proposed: Gadgeteer: Gadgets grant additional powerful effects. Further reduces recharge on gadgets, stacks with Speedy Gadgets.
Recharge reduced: 20%

if [trait] Speedy Gadgets is taken as well, then total recharge reduced is 40% instead of 20% since many gadgets have long recharge time, this should allow gadgets to be used more often.

Even when using a full bar of gadgets, current Gadgeteer just doesn’t do enough – for which I blame the boons, as they don’t want to give too many of them or make them too strong for fear of stacking, I guess.
I definitely support making gadgets more useful, and this version seems pretty handy.

On a related note, I think the aspects of randomness in both Mine Field and Rocket Boots are problematic for each skill.

• Mine Field isn’t quite hit-or-miss, but I think it’d definitely be nice for it to be more predictable for the user – or even sort-of-controllable, possibly using a charge-up mechanic. What I mean by that: Set the positions of the mines to something akin to a five-pointed star, rather than leaving them randomly scattered. Tap the Mine Field button, Mine Field is placed at maximum dispersal; hold it and the dispersal zone narrows until the minimum distance is reached.

• Rocket Boots seems to send the user tumbling in unintended directions far too often for it to be reliable, in my opinion – what’s the use of using it to jet away when the tumble at the end, which doesn’t even act as an evade, has as much chance of sending you rolling back toward the enemy as it does of not? It’s not quite random, but it’s definitely awkward.

Anymras.5729:

Even when using a full bar of gadgets, current Gadgeteer just doesn’t do enough – for which I blame the boons, as they don’t want to give too many of them or make them too strong for fear of stacking, I guess.
I definitely support making gadgets more useful, and this version seems pretty handy.

On a related note, I think the aspects of randomness in both Mine Field and Rocket Boots are problematic for each skill.

• Mine Field isn’t quite hit-or-miss, but I think it’d definitely be nice for it to be more predictable for the user – or even sort-of-controllable, possibly using a charge-up mechanic. What I mean by that: Set the positions of the mines to something akin to a five-pointed star, rather than leaving them randomly scattered. Tap the Mine Field button, Mine Field is placed at maximum dispersal; hold it and the dispersal zone narrows until the minimum distance is reached.

• Rocket Boots seems to send the user tumbling in unintended directions far too often for it to be reliable, in my opinion – what’s the use of using it to jet away when the tumble at the end, which doesn’t even act as an evade, has as much chance of sending you rolling back toward the enemy as it does of not? It’s not quite random, but it’s definitely awkward.

Indeed, both points I’ve brought up myself in the past.

The random formation of mines in the Mine Field ability has always been a negative. Absolutely nothing to lose by placing them in a 5 point star.

And yes, Rocket Boots need quality of life improvements. Technically you can cancel it, but it’s far from being a smooth ride. Like every player who uses them knows, the tumble at the end, as you put it, is very annoying because often sends you flying in a random and pointlessly different direction. Why on God’s green earth, I do not know why it’s capable of changing directions on its own.

What really needs to be done with Rocket Boots is to have an aiming template just like Fiery Greatsword 3 or Warrior Greatsword 3. And you will continue to go in that direction until cancelled. Then you’d have a perfectly working skill.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

how about giving additional recharge time reduce on top of that?

i.e.
Proposed: Gadgeteer: Gadgets grant additional powerful effects. Further reduces recharge on gadgets, stacks with Speedy Gadgets.
Recharge reduced: 20%

if [trait] Speedy Gadgets is taken as well, then total recharge reduced is 40% instead of 20% since many gadgets have long recharge time, this should allow gadgets to be used more often.

If Arenanet would acknowledge that builds that run 2 gadgets and go 6 points in tools need help, (LOL) that’d be enough of a victory. If any suggestions floating around on buffing them got in, I’d be ecstatic.

I think they could even need another boost like what you’re suggesting. My only problem is that it’s not a very unique or cool boost. And a 40% reduction to things like Rocket Boots, taking it down to 12 seconds, seems a little out of hand, even if it was intended for long gadgets like slick shoes, A.E.D, or Utility Goggles.

I’d almost suggest something like ‘Also, with this trait, Gadget toolbelt skills can be swapped out for other Gadget toolbelt skills,’ but that’d just…be awkward. Also, possibly OP.

Anymras.5729:

I’d almost suggest something like ‘Also, with this trait, Gadget toolbelt skills can be swapped out for other Gadget toolbelt skills,’ but that’d just…be awkward. Also, possibly OP.

Hah, yeah. That’s an overcomplicated UI nightmare.

If anything additional was needed, it shouldn’t make a ‘new’ Gadgeteer trait too bloated. I would just say, throw a 15% damage increase to gadget abilities.

To answer Chaith on mechanics “why” on the random tumble – Rocket boots leap is two part: A leap, similar to warrior’s sword 2, followed by a “dodge” that, for whatever reason, bounces off terrain. The “dodge” makes the animation smoother, so you don’t just fly then suddenly stop at the end. I don’t think the bounce is intended, or at least intended in the precise way we see it. As for why cancel works on boots (and on jump shot), is because it interrupts the two part animation on both. The easiest fix for rocket boots would simply be make it a proper dodge at the end. The preferred would be your suggestion. And my personal pipe dream is give it a 1 second for controlled jump with range indicator.

As for gadgeteering in general, it is extremely fun, if you aren’t playing high skill opponents with decent builds or decent opponents with good builds. With a silly number of options for cc and kiting, it is a warrior’s bane. Unfortunately, it suffers due to “limited” (one) condition removal, zerker being required for damage, being non-optimal for pve (as cc means almost nothing in dungeons), and having lower damage output than other zerkers (especially since Static Discharge only works on 4/6 gadgets).

The traits available for gadgets are both rather lackluster. Honestly, they could be combined into one and a new gadget trait could be added, but, assuming that’s not an option, I would like to see the Grandmaster trait make gadgets strong enough that running three and a kit could be competitive and four viable in lower end play.

To do so, gadgeteer would need to make gadgets much more effective. The suggestions above are good; mine are as follows (periods are fairly solid ideas to me, question marks are questionable):

AED- Causes an aoe that damages and blinds when it heals. Still grants retaliation.

Rocket Boots- Grants swiftness as well as vigor. Breaks stun? Evades?

PBR- Removes stability before launch. Transfer or remove condition? Remove and grant immunity to weakness for a short duration?

Slick shoes- Larger aoe might give too much point control… Enemies take damage from slipping? Coats hit enemies in oil that can be ignited for bonus damage? Grant Quickness and debuff? Cripples tripped enemies?

Throw mine- Strips addition boons? Transfers conditions from nearby allies to struck foe? Drops three mines in a triangle on target (combine with minefield for max trollitude)?

Goggles- Might(5). Cleanse conditions? Attacks unblockable? Attacks apply a short cripple while active with short ICD? Attacks have a chance to apply a short daze?

Reasoning:

AED- Giving it defensive measures when activated defeats its purpose. However, giving a bonus defensive damage aspect after it activates would be useful. I won’t even pretend to say make it a blast finisher; we have too many already.

Rocket boots- They’re for engaging or escaping. Swiftness and vigor both play into those rolls greatly (heh, pun). An extra stunbreaker helps with general survivability.

PBR- It’s a setup control move, normally. It can be used to save a downed ally or somesuch, but it’s most often used to incap the enemy so they can’t avoid your burst. Removing weakness would mean you wouldn’t have to worry about your damage being reduced when you try to take advantage of your enemy. Condition transfer would just be a nice way to remove a condition or two outside of your heal.

Slick shoes- Depends on what they want slick shoes to be used as. I like use it as an offensive tool, to make combos easier to land, but it was likely intended to be defensive, judging from toolbelt being kitteneful escape and regen being granted currently via trait. Gadgeteers already have better escape with the rocket boots (despite them being unreliable), so I would like to see its offensive usage maximized. Quickness is likely too much to ask, but something engineer unique would be fun.

Throw mine – My least used gadget, I’m not sure what you would want to do with it. Additional mines would be interesting, and lend itself to extra control/boon strip. Condition removal or transfer would be very nice once again.

Goggles – It’s an offensive tool. No ifs, ands, or buts. Making attacks unblockable would be beautiful, especially if they made them unreflectable. Quickness once again would be nice, but a lot to ask for. Applying hard or soft CC is always useful, and fits with what the gadgeteer already does. Condition immunity is also a lot to ask for, and would lead to the trait being used defensively against conditions and not as a stunbreak.

Chaith.8256:

Proposed: Gadgeteer: Gadgets grant additional powerful effects.

• Personal Battering Ram – Hit up to 5 enemies, removing stability from those affected.
• Utility Goggles – Prevents conditions from being applied for 5 seconds. (No longer grants immunity to blind for 10 seconds)

These two seem vastly overpowered. An engineer that has a guarantueed AoE stability removal? No thank you.

Just making it AoE makes this skill quite strong, can compare it to something like a warrior’s stomp (no stun break but only 25 sec cooldown and a very quick casttime).

Utility goggles basically being a 5 second Berserker Stance with Fury, a stunbreaker, 10 stacks of vulnerability and reveal skill all in one? No thank you.

Maybe give it an immunity to blind and poison?

Cygnus.6903:

Chaith.8256:

Proposed: Gadgeteer: Gadgets grant additional powerful effects.

• Personal Battering Ram – Hit up to 5 enemies, removing stability from those affected.
• Utility Goggles – Prevents conditions from being applied for 5 seconds. (No longer grants immunity to blind for 10 seconds)

These two seem vastly overpowered. An engineer that has a guarantueed AoE stability removal? No thank you.

Just making it AoE makes this skill quite strong, can compare it to something like a warrior’s stomp (no stun break but only 25 sec cooldown and a very quick casttime).

Utility goggles basically being a 5 second Berserker Stance with Fury, a stunbreaker, 10 stacks of vulnerability and reveal skill all in one? No thank you.

Maybe give it an immunity to blind and poison?

“AoE”

130 range and only in front of the Engineer, yes, AoE in that area. Lmao. Basically it punishes people that are all huddled up.

Have you tried using Utility Goggles recently? You will get shrekt. No way around it, it’s just too poor of a defensive stunbreak, and saving it for when you need the only stunbreak your build can carry, it really defeats the purpose of being immune to blind and gaining fury (used for attacking.)

Compared to untraited Elixir S I still think people would take my proposed Utility Goggles only if it was a Necro and Thief hell. Dumping a Grandmaster into it should at least make the traited stunbreaks competitive with untraited Elixir S, or Slick Shoes low cooldown stunbreak/mobility.

i think i would rather have rocket boots evade than stunbreak!

insanemaniac.2456:

i think i would rather have rocket boots evade than stunbreak!

The stunbreak would reduce the build limitations. I think that an evade would be super clutch, but if an Engineer were to take Rocket Boots in the 1 stunbreak slot Engineers have, #yolo no stunbreak is not always an option, haha.

I see it similar to the ‘Shielded Mind’ trait logic on the Virtues Guardian.

Anymras.5729:

Rocket Boots seems to send the user tumbling in unintended directions

ive found that if i dont hold down any directional keys then this is less likely to happen.

#gogogadgetmeta

I think everybody agrees that gadget skills are underused. Here are some suggestions:

Rocket boots
The final part of the animation is often bugged and often either freezes the engi or goes backwards, basically working against the engineer who wants to disengage. It should evade.
Rocket kick
Instead of being a DPS skill it could be more utility and mobility. Make it a leap skill of 600 range and stun break, reduce burn to 4 seconds, increase CD to 30 s

Slick shoes
reduce cooldown to 35 s (rather weak with current cooldown)
Super speed
Give stability for 5 s in addition to the increased speed (which in most situations same speed as swiftness, thus not very useful)

Utility Goggles
reduce cooldown to 35 s (same)

Launch Personal Battering Ram
2xDaze instead of cripple (daze when going forth, then 2nd daze when the ram goes back)

Deniara Devious.3948:

I think everybody agrees that gadget skills are underused. Here are some suggestions:

Rocket boots
The final part of the animation is often bugged and often either freezes the engi or goes backwards, basically working against the engineer who wants to disengage. It should evade.
Rocket kick
Instead of being a DPS skill it could be more utility and mobility. Make it a leap skill of 600 range and stun break, reduce burn to 4 seconds, increase CD to 30 s

Slick shoes
reduce cooldown to 35 s (rather weak with current cooldown)
Super speed
Give stability for 5 s in addition to the increased speed (which in most situations same speed as swiftness, thus not very useful)

Utility Goggles
reduce cooldown to 35 s (same)

Launch Personal Battering Ram
2xDaze instead of cripple (daze when going forth, then 2nd daze when the ram goes back)

Not bad ideas, but don’t underestimate Slick Shoes as it is currently. It was just buffed fairly significantly. Rocket Boots, Ram, and Utility Goggles are very undertuned at the moment though. Also Launch Personal Battering Ram only hits once, not twice.

Chaith.8256:

insanemaniac.2456:

i think i would rather have rocket boots evade than stunbreak!

The stunbreak would reduce the build limitations. I think that an evade would be super clutch, but if an Engineer were to take Rocket Boots in the 1 stunbreak slot Engineers have, #yolo no stunbreak is not always an option, haha.

I see it similar to the ‘Shielded Mind’ trait logic on the Virtues Guardian.

i kinda think that with breaks on goggles and slick shoes there would already be enough breaking options and that having something different would be interesting!

i also think a gadget build would likely want to incorporate a kit no matter what it runs, cuz engi is pretty limited without a weapon swap… so aed + 2 gadgets + a kit would be an optimal gadget build imo? that leaves quite a bit of room for your gadget choices.

insanemaniac.2456:

so aed + 2 gadgets + a kit would be an optimal gadget build imo? that leaves quite a bit of room for your gadget choices.

Yeah.

Gadget Stunbreak, a kit, and ideally an offensive Gadget.

If I were to bring:

• A Gadget Stunbreak. (Utility Goggles, Slick Shoes)
• A Kit. (Bomb or Grenade main DPS KIT)
• Rocket Boots

I feel like the damage might be just a tad low. Since Rocket boots can’t really pump as much damage as the Toolkit’s Throw Wrench and Prybar, I think the build’s pressure would be hit a bit, is all.

That’s why I suggested it go in the Gadget Stunbreak slot instead of the offensive Gadget slot.

Like honestly, for that third spot, the first two being a Kit and Stunbreak, such a gadget would have to compete in offense and defense with Tool Kit which is what it would be replacing. Untraited, Toolkit is a boss.

I’d rather see Utility Goggles grant more precision while not on cooldown but the rest of your suggestions I can totally get with.

Rocket Boots propels you forward so I want Rocket kick to blast you backwards and leave a small burning field, exactly like Elixer Kit 4 ability.

I want Utility Goggles to take people that are stealthed OUT of stealth and be revealed for 6s along with the vulnerability.

Slick Shoes should pile up a large pool of oil around you if you’re standing still/immobilized. Kind of like kittenting your pants when you’re getting ganked.
Now that the opponents are oiled, all burning duration last longer on them.

Super Speed should evade like The Flash!

Chaith.8256:

Gadgets grant additional powerful effects.

• Personal Battering Ram – Hit up to 5 enemies, removing stability from those affected.
• Utility Goggles – Prevents conditions from being applied for 5 seconds. (No longer grants immunity to blind for 10 seconds)

Well the battering ram suggestion is just enabling engis to do something they shouldn’t be able to do. Engi already has some of the best res and stomp denial tools in the game.

As for the utility goggles, I’m all for Engineers to have more resistance to condi burst, however we all know how warriors were with 8 seconds of immunity when that was implemented. How about if for 3 seconds all incoming conditions were converted to boons? That would immediately stop Necros from brainlessly landing their dark path wombo combo ftw, without going overboard on mitigation up time.

Without a kit, the most functional gadget build currently seems to be healing turret, boots, shoes, goggles, and supply crate. It lends itself to a medium to high damage roaming build, with fairly good escapes and chase.

With a kit, the most function gadget build seems to be healing turret, tool kit (for defense and Static Discharge), boots, goggles, and crate. The boots can be replaced with shoes if more survivability is preferred, but it means you have one less way to proc discharge.

The problems with both these builds are fairly obvious. The first is fairly dumb. Just like pure signets doesn’t make a competitive build, pure gadgets don’t work very well. They can be viable if you’re good and know how to counter your enemies with them, but it’s simply not a build you will see at high end play. The second has its own troubles. Tool kit adds some damage over shoes, along with a good block and its own soft and hard cc, but it isn’t enough to keep you in the fight for much longer than shoes, and it lacks a stunbreaker. The rest plays out the same as 3 gadgets; highly mobile, goodish damage, but not super threatening.

A big thing to note in both of those builds, AED is fairly worthless. It a longer cast time than healing turret, doesn’t provide a field or on command condition cleanse, and its tool belt is almost too short range to hit with. While it does proc another hit of SD, it is not enough damage to make it worthwhile.

I personally would love to see gadgeteer able to stand its ground against celestial rifle, but there is no way it can do that currently. Even with full zerk, it does less damage, has no condition pressure, doesn’t synergize well with most kits, and its trait (gadget cooldown) competes with the better choice of perma-swiftness/vigor. Without the perma swiftness, you need inventions to maintain good speed consistently, and you run out of room for traits that might offer better hybridization. (I wonder what 6/0/0/2/6 would do… Probably too squishy?)

Phaeton.9582:

Well the battering ram suggestion is just enabling engis to do something they shouldn’t be able to do.

Phaeton.9582:

Engi already has some of the best res and stomp denial tools in the game.

These two statements are contradicting. Also, take into account how bad your build needs to be to be 6 into tools and slot Personal Battering Ram. It needs to be dang sexy.

Phaeton.9582:

As for the utility goggles, I’m all for Engineers to have more resistance to condi burst, however we all know how warriors were with 8 seconds of immunity when that was implemented. How about if for 3 seconds all incoming conditions were converted to boons? That would immediately stop Necros from brainlessly landing their dark path wombo combo ftw, without going overboard on mitigation up time.

No arguments here. 5 seconds or 3 seconds works.

Creld.8702:

Without a kit, the most functional gadget build currently seems to be healing turret, boots, shoes, goggles, and supply crate. It lends itself to a medium to high damage roaming build, with fairly good escapes and chase.

With a kit, the most function gadget build seems to be healing turret, tool kit (for defense and Static Discharge), boots, goggles, and crate. The boots can be replaced with shoes if more survivability is preferred, but it means you have one less way to proc discharge.

The problems with both these builds are fairly obvious. The first is fairly dumb. Just like pure signets doesn’t make a competitive build, pure gadgets don’t work very well. They can be viable if you’re good and know how to counter your enemies with them, but it’s simply not a build you will see at high end play. The second has its own troubles. Tool kit adds some damage over shoes, along with a good block and its own soft and hard cc, but it isn’t enough to keep you in the fight for much longer than shoes, and it lacks a stunbreaker. The rest plays out the same as 3 gadgets; highly mobile, goodish damage, but not super threatening.

A big thing to note in both of those builds, AED is fairly worthless. It a longer cast time than healing turret, doesn’t provide a field or on command condition cleanse, and its tool belt is almost too short range to hit with. While it does proc another hit of SD, it is not enough damage to make it worthwhile.

I personally would love to see gadgeteer able to stand its ground against celestial rifle, but there is no way it can do that currently. Even with full zerk, it does less damage, has no condition pressure, doesn’t synergize well with most kits, and its trait (gadget cooldown) competes with the better choice of perma-swiftness/vigor. Without the perma swiftness, you need inventions to maintain good speed consistently, and you run out of room for traits that might offer better hybridization. (I wonder what 6/0/0/2/6 would do… Probably too squishy?)

Most of your analysis is correct.. like you said, like pure signets, pure gadgets aren’t going to make a good build necessarily, no matter how much one wants to use only gadgets.

Gadgets are more realistic in the sense that they should be able to be swapped in as a viable stunbreak, or be a viable alternative as an Engineer’s third slot, usually filled by the second kit to supplement offense, defense, and utility.

However, I feel comfortable in using Slick Shoes as my stun break. At the moment it is the only successful gadget, in my opinion. While the Rocket Boots are handy for getting around in an MMO, they’re somewhat of a hinderance to combat ability. Throw Mine, Personal Battering Ram, Utility Goggles, these utilities are just in serious need of a place in the world.

Chaith.8256:

Deniara Devious.3948:

I think everybody agrees that gadget skills are underused. Here are some suggestions:

Rocket boots
The final part of the animation is often bugged and often either freezes the engi or goes backwards, basically working against the engineer who wants to disengage. It should evade.
Rocket kick
Instead of being a DPS skill it could be more utility and mobility. Make it a leap skill of 600 range and stun break, reduce burn to 4 seconds, increase CD to 30 s

Slick shoes
reduce cooldown to 35 s (rather weak with current cooldown)
Super speed
Give stability for 5 s in addition to the increased speed (which in most situations same speed as swiftness, thus not very useful)

Utility Goggles
reduce cooldown to 35 s (same)

Launch Personal Battering Ram
2xDaze instead of cripple (daze when going forth, then 2nd daze when the ram goes back)

Not bad ideas, but don’t underestimate Slick Shoes as it is currently. It was just buffed fairly significantly. Rocket Boots, Ram, and Utility Goggles are very undertuned at the moment though. Also Launch Personal Battering Ram only hits once, not twice.

I know personal battering ram hits only once, but redesigning the animation and making it hit twice within and double daze would make it cooler. Rocket boots and utility goggles are still weak, agreed. That is why I wanted to add a stun break to rocket kick and turn it into 600 leap (maybe also a finisher). This would allow more mobility, which engineer sorely lacks as a medium armor profession and mid range fighter (I feel that engi is excels at mid range combat, at longer distance LB ranger clearly wins and melee range you have a lot of other good options). At the same time I wanted to tone down its damage and increase it’s cooldown, not to make it overpowered.

Deniara Devious.3948:

I know personal battering ram hits only once, but redesigning the animation and making it hit twice within and double daze would make it cooler. Rocket boots and utility goggles are still weak, agreed. That is why I wanted to add a stun break to rocket kick and turn it into 600 leap (maybe also a finisher). This would allow more mobility, which engineer sorely lacks as a medium armor profession and mid range fighter (I feel that engi is excels at mid range combat, at longer distance LB ranger clearly wins and melee range you have a lot of other good options). At the same time I wanted to tone down its damage and increase it’s cooldown, not to make it overpowered.

Yeah that all sounds pretty cool. Although I don’t know if the Daze on Launch PBR will be good, because that breaks knockdowns from overcharged shot and PBR knockdown itself. Hitting twice would be good, pretty much as good as Throw Wrench, if not exactly alike.

I would definitely see Rocket Boots getting some play from me if I could use it in my utility slot reserved for stunbreaks, instead of the utility slot reserved to supplement my combat damage/defense. Period. That’s what it needs, imo.

Chaith.8256:

Creld.8702:

Without a kit, the most functional gadget build currently seems to be healing turret, boots, shoes, goggles, and supply crate. It lends itself to a medium to high damage roaming build, with fairly good escapes and chase.

With a kit, the most function gadget build seems to be healing turret, tool kit (for defense and Static Discharge), boots, goggles, and crate. The boots can be replaced with shoes if more survivability is preferred, but it means you have one less way to proc discharge.

The problems with both these builds are fairly obvious. The first is fairly dumb. Just like pure signets doesn’t make a competitive build, pure gadgets don’t work very well. They can be viable if you’re good and know how to counter your enemies with them, but it’s simply not a build you will see at high end play. The second has its own troubles. Tool kit adds some damage over shoes, along with a good block and its own soft and hard cc, but it isn’t enough to keep you in the fight for much longer than shoes, and it lacks a stunbreaker. The rest plays out the same as 3 gadgets; highly mobile, goodish damage, but not super threatening.

A big thing to note in both of those builds, AED is fairly worthless. It a longer cast time than healing turret, doesn’t provide a field or on command condition cleanse, and its tool belt is almost too short range to hit with. While it does proc another hit of SD, it is not enough damage to make it worthwhile.

I personally would love to see gadgeteer able to stand its ground against celestial rifle, but there is no way it can do that currently. Even with full zerk, it does less damage, has no condition pressure, doesn’t synergize well with most kits, and its trait (gadget cooldown) competes with the better choice of perma-swiftness/vigor. Without the perma swiftness, you need inventions to maintain good speed consistently, and you run out of room for traits that might offer better hybridization. (I wonder what 6/0/0/2/6 would do… Probably too squishy?)

Most of your analysis is correct.. like you said, like pure signets, pure gadgets aren’t going to make a good build necessarily, no matter how much one wants to use only gadgets.

Gadgets are more realistic in the sense that they should be able to be swapped in as a viable stunbreak, or be a viable alternative as an Engineer’s third slot, usually filled by the second kit to supplement offense, defense, and utility.

However, I feel comfortable in using Slick Shoes as my stun break. At the moment it is the only successful gadget, in my opinion. While the Rocket Boots are handy for getting around in an MMO, they’re somewhat of a hinderance to combat ability. Throw Mine, Personal Battering Ram, Utility Goggles, these utilities are just in serious need of a place in the world.

rocket boots as is gives you a lot of sticking power in a duel. you can counter an attempted escape from melee range with the skill (and its cleanse), and you can counter a kite attempt with the toolbelt. it doesnt do much damage itself, but it lets you hit your bombs and nades more.

at least… thats how i use it in a fight. i feel like its successful, apart from the glitches introduced to it about 3 patches ago now.

Chaith.8256:

Phaeton.9582:

Well the battering ram suggestion is just enabling engis to do something they shouldn’t be able to do.

Phaeton.9582:

Engi already has some of the best res and stomp denial tools in the game.

These two statements are contradicting. Also, take into account how bad your build needs to be to be 6 into tools and slot Personal Battering Ram. It needs to be dang sexy.

Interrupting through stability is res and stomp denial. Overcharged Shot and Big ol Bomb is res denial, Elixer S is stomp denial, as is (sort of) Elixer R. None of those things interrupt through stability, get me? I agree, although I’m somewhat aware that with 6 in tools you can field a mean power engi, and the battering ram would synergise with Synaptic Overload.

Engi is my least played class these days, so please excuse any lack of conviction. As a multiclasser though, it seems important to me some classes can’t interrupt through stab (can you imagine what it would do to warriors! Ele however would have to be much more careful and maybe have to retrait their Earth adept if the engi build was viable, which would add an interesting counterplay. The Engi build would be lethal in lockdown burst comps.

Chaith.8256:

Phaeton.9582:

As for the utility goggles, I’m all for Engineers to have more resistance to condi burst, however we all know how warriors were with 8 seconds of immunity when that was implemented. How about if for 3 seconds all incoming conditions were converted to boons? That would immediately stop Necros from brainlessly landing their dark path wombo combo ftw, without going overboard on mitigation up time.

No arguments here. 5 seconds or 3 seconds works.

Note I suggested 3 seconds conversion thats OP enough :p
Actually would steal that for guard – maybe rework ‘Battle Presence’ in honor on activation of virtue of resolve… I can dream XD

Just increase the boon durations by about 50% and make the toolbelt skills of each gadget give the boons as well.

Or make a “Gadgets are instant” removing the casting animation like on guardian meditations which would be really good for PBR and the healing skill.

Dojo.1867:

Just increase the boon durations by about 50% and make the toolbelt skills of each gadget give the boons as well.

Or make a “Gadgets are instant” removing the casting animation like on guardian meditations which would be really good for PBR and the healing skill.

I like the first suggestion.

With gadget traits and 4 pts in Alchemy, here’s what that would do to to Gadget builds, assuming it were possible to literally spam your abilities on cooldown.

• PBR could potentially give 125% uptime of fury.

• Slick Shoes could give a maximum of 101% uptime of Regen.

• Throw Mine could give up to 8 Aegis per minute.

• A.E.D could give a whopping 37% uptime of Retaliation. *fart noise

• Rocket Boots could give 90% uptime of vigor.

• Utility Goggles could give about perma 5 stacks of might.

I don’t like the ‘make gadgets instant’ trait as much, though. 2/6 Gadgets are already instant.

I like your eyebrows, Chaith, but you are proposing to turn engineers into warriors.

Frenk.5917:

I like your eyebrows, Chaith, but you are proposing to turn engineers into warriors.

Nah there are other ways to do things that don’t just copy warrior mechanics.

Beside that I find Frenks argument really odd. You can always force different classes in nearly identical playstyles. That is how the build system works and it is good that way. There are still some mechanics that are unique to a certain class and for warriors I would say it is just the raw amount of base stats and high weapon variety.

Everyone has boons, so what.

Dojo.1867:

Beside that I find this argument really odd. You can always force different classes in nearly identical playstyles. That is how the build system works and it is good that way. There are still some mechanics that are unique to a certain class and for warriors I would say it is just the raw amount of base stats and high weapon variety.

Everyone has boons, so what.

You lost me. What post are you replying to

Was adressing Frenk. Sorry.

TLDR: I don’t think giving gadget engi heavy boon access makes them a warrior.

Btw imo currently engi absolutely needs Toolkit and also the Incendiary Ammo trait but those are clearly OP from an isolated point of view and should be changed once engi gets other tools. It will always be incredible hard for other utilities like gadgets to compete with that one slot efficiency machine that is tool kit. For the undodgable burn I think that engi has enough burn sources that they should not get it thrown in their face as a trait if you play grenades that has no burn as pretty much its single downside.

Dojo.1867:

Was adressing Frenk. Sorry.

TLDR: I don’t think giving gadget engi heavy boon access makes them a warrior.

Btw imo currently engi absolutely needs Toolkit and also the Incendiary Ammo trait but those are clearly OP from an isolated point of view and should be changed once engi gets other tools. It will always be incredible hard for other utilities like gadgets to compete with that one slot efficiency machine that is tool kit. For the undodgable burn I think that engi has enough burn sources that they should not get it thrown in their face as a trait if you play grenades that has no burn as pretty much its single downside.

I think Frenk was referring to my initial idea for Utility Goggles to prevent conditions from being applied. Like a mini berserker stance. Or adding a small regen to A.E.D while you’re saving it forever, for when you go down. That mechanic is a little reminiscent of Healing Signet.

Oh, then I misunderstood him. I had a similiar idea for utility goggles but propably selective for certain conditions like blind, cofused, weakness and fear.

Chaith.8256:

I think Frenk was referring to my initial idea for Utility Goggles to prevent conditions from being applied. Like a mini berserker stance. Or adding a small regen to A.E.D while you’re saving it forever, for when you go down. That mechanic is a little reminiscent of Healing Signet.

Precisely. AED and Utility Goggles would become mini zerker stance and mini healing signet. I believe there are better ways to improve those skills.

I do like, in fact, the 100% increase of boons idea.

Frenk.5917:

Chaith.8256:

I think Frenk was referring to my initial idea for Utility Goggles to prevent conditions from being applied. Like a mini berserker stance. Or adding a small regen to A.E.D while you’re saving it forever, for when you go down. That mechanic is a little reminiscent of Healing Signet.

Precisely. AED and Utility Goggles would become mini zerker stance and mini healing signet. I believe there are better ways to improve those skills.

I do like, in fact, the 100% increase of boons idea.

Elixirs, Gadgets, I so want for these to be usable. They’re so cool. I’d take boons if it worked!

This thread needs to go on forever till gadget traits become useful!

Shaogin.2679:

This thread needs to go on forever till gadget traits become useful!

We’ll just have to add it to our Engineer Forever Threads, alongside Hobosacks and Legendaries.

I’m curious, why do you think Rocket Boots are underpowered? It’s a blast finisher, break immob and a forward leap on a 20s cooldown, and it even removes cripple and chill! If it was a breakstun, it would be straight OP. It’s so good I even prefer it to EG in WvW, because it is so much stronger than EG #4 than the other abilities can’t even the match. Utility Goggles could still use a buff, even if it is rather good in a SD build. Slick Shoes are good in bunker builds, but could still need a bit of love.

Sorel.4870:

I’m curious, why do you think Rocket Boots are underpowered? It’s a blast finisher, break immob and a forward leap on a 20s cooldown, and it even removes cripple and chill! If it was a breakstun, it would be straight OP. It’s so good I even prefer it to EG in WvW, because it is so much stronger than EG #4 than the other abilities can’t even the match. Utility Goggles could still use a buff, even if it is rather good in a SD build. Slick Shoes are good in bunker builds, but could still need a bit of love.

Slick Shoes are already competitive in PvP! They were just buffed by having Super Speed cooldown reduced by 33% and Slick Shoes cooldown reduced by 25%.

Rocket boots are great, but as far as PvP goes, the utility slot it competes for is too competitive! Also, consider for Rocket Boots to break stun, by taking this trait, it will require the Engineer to either abandon Grenades, or Backpack Regenerator.

It may seem like Rocket Boots would be bloated, but.. I consider it just about never optimal in PvP. Open WvW roaming I’m sure it is fine.

Sorel.4870:

I’m curious, why do you think Rocket Boots are underpowered? It’s a blast finisher, break immob and a forward leap on a 20s cooldown, and it even removes cripple and chill! If it was a breakstun, it would be straight OP. It’s so good I even prefer it to EG in WvW, because it is so much stronger than EG #4 than the other abilities can’t even the match. Utility Goggles could still use a buff, even if it is rather good in a SD build. Slick Shoes are good in bunker builds, but could still need a bit of love.

i can only speak for myself but i dont think rocket boots are underpowered. i think gadgets are underpowered and that creating a build with gadgets as the core focus will make you lose and die etc more than a kit focused build would. chaiths goal with buffing gadgeteer is to make it worth taking more than 1 gadget so that you can focus on gadgets as a core, complemented by a couple other things. buffing gadgets to provide much better functionality when you dedicate a lot of trait points is an ok way to do that (problems arise when you change the use cases too much and it becomes ambiguous to the opponents, such as adding a stunbreak in when traited… how does the opponent know if it stunbreaks or not without a priori knowledge? the knowledge would distinctly change the opponents play pattern.).

anyways, all of the uses you mention are a gadget complementing a completely different build. would you go 6 in tools to get the stunbreak in a nades/rb/tk nades-centric build? (actually i think i might, which would be a potential issue). would you take 6 tools in a bunker build to get bigger puddles on slick shoes? probably not, but a gadget build would definitely get something more enticing out of slick shoes when they should want to consider it anyways.

eh, idk if im making sense here.

insanemaniac.2456:

Sorel.4870:

I’m curious, why do you think Rocket Boots are underpowered? It’s a blast finisher, break immob and a forward leap on a 20s cooldown, and it even removes cripple and chill! If it was a breakstun, it would be straight OP. It’s so good I even prefer it to EG in WvW, because it is so much stronger than EG #4 than the other abilities can’t even the match. Utility Goggles could still use a buff, even if it is rather good in a SD build. Slick Shoes are good in bunker builds, but could still need a bit of love.

i can only speak for myself but i dont think rocket boots are underpowered. i think gadgets are underpowered and that creating a build with gadgets as the core focus will make you lose and die etc more than a kit focused build would. chaiths goal with buffing gadgeteer is to make it worth taking more than 1 gadget so that you can focus on gadgets as a core, complemented by a couple other things. buffing gadgets to provide much better functionality when you dedicate a lot of trait points is an ok way to do that (problems arise when you change the use cases too much and it becomes ambiguous to the opponents, such as adding a stunbreak in when traited… how does the opponent know if it stunbreaks or not without a priori knowledge? the knowledge would distinctly change the opponents play pattern.).

anyways, all of the uses you mention are a gadget complementing a completely different build. would you go 6 in tools to get the stunbreak in a nades/rb/tk nades-centric build? (actually i think i might, which would be a potential issue). would you take 6 tools in a bunker build to get bigger puddles on slick shoes? probably not, but a gadget build would definitely get something more enticing out of slick shoes when they should want to consider it anyways.

eh, idk if im making sense here.

Nope you’re making sense. You’re right, I would rather pave the way for double gadget builds and beyond.

I don’t want to give the current meta builds a better stunbreak option.

Running a Gadget traited build could be used with grenades, but you couldn’t put 4 points in Alchemy, which is a huge survivability hit for all Engineers in PvP. The fact that you’re gaining a shorter cooldown stunbreak is even balanced on the side of caution, in my opinion. Transmute and Backpack Regenerator are OP.

Running a Gadget focused build could be used with 4 points in Alchemy, this is my preference, but that means no Grenaderino. That’s where hopefully Throw Mine and/or Personal Battering Ram (PBR not likely to ever be usable, lmao) shine, when fully traited up, so the engineer can actually do the damages.

I personally would love a gadget engi to be viable, it think i would play it. I love the boons idea and i basically find engi to not have enough dps when on zerker gadgets and little survivability compare to other builds so how do we plan to make gadgets better in these ways? I think boon rip ( 1-3 ) on PBR would be great for engis though not necessarily removing stability first ( stability = the biggest counter to power engis ). I think a high boon duration gadget build would fit nicely because it works to fill in the missing damage and survivability. Making boots an evade would be amazing. I also think that slick shoes is really strong but the toolbelt is not very powerful and it should be buffed in some way like stability which would make it ideal for kiting and escape. BTW i dont play engi much and so i dont have that great an understanding of their mechanics but i know some.

Sadrien.3470:

I personally would love a gadget engi to be viable, it think i would play it. I love the boons idea and i basically find engi to not have enough dps when on zerker gadgets and little survivability compare to other builds so how do we plan to make gadgets better in these ways?

Lack of raw dps on Gadgets is definitely a concern. These are supposed to be replacing kits and providing the Engineers with their main abilities.

It’s just a simple matter of how much follow through that the ability can do. Some Gadgets really just have no potential to do anything that scary.

Personal Battering Ram is a prime example. A single low-damage knock back into a single medium-damage crippling projectile?

Compare to throw Mine, which actually has good follow-through. An AoE knock back that you can set as an unblockable trap, and a very high damage point-blank AoE nuke that strips boons. The only problem is just how hard it is to land..

I’m not even sure what to suggest so that Personal Battering Ram could be worth a slot. Perhaps significantly increase the damage of the knockback and make it into a cone? The projectile is not that bad, on a 15 second cooldown.

if you double the damage of pbr itll be pretty much unignorable
though idk if i would take pbr + ….say… rb over slicks + mine.

insanemaniac.2456:

if you double the damage of pbr itll be pretty much unignorable
though idk if i would take pbr + ….say… rb over slicks + mine.

If you had Personal Battering Ram, Rocket Boots, and a stunbreak, I feel your damage would be so abysmally low, even running a glass build will won’t enable you to kill anything with sustained healing.

It’d be like: Use Rifle skills, Rocket Kick, Launch Battering Ram………………. hip shot for 15 seconds until skills recharge. RIP damage. Double Gadgets just leave you with no abilities. Also it’s why it’s freakin’ hard to get enough damage rolling with Rocket Boots eating up that utility slot in the build.

That’s why I elected to give dedicated Gadgeteers that Rocket Boots stunbreak so there’s another option for taking 2 Gadgets, and still have one slot for a kit!

In my opinion, the way forward for Gadgets is not a megabuff to Gadgeteer but perhaps in the form of revamping some traits in Inventions instead. Just as Meditation Guardian can string together a build stacking those utilities; so too should Gadget Engineer with 2+ Gadgets be able to derive some utility – if not from the gadgets themselves; then from Trait support. This has the dual purpose of opening up new ways to build Engineer without putting yet another build in the works that relies upon Alchemy for Vigour/Sustain; thus driving down build variety and increasing balance complexity.

I think that it’s safe to say that Engineer lacks two things right now – steady but shallow Condi Cleanse; and Sustain outside of Boons/Back Pack Regen – although Bomb Heal may or may not qualify as Sustain depending on whether you WvW.

We can give the Gadget build these two things – and thus builds slotting 1-2 Gadgets some measure of these things – by introducing 2 traits and reworking another 2:

Moving Low Health Response System up from Adept Minor (Inventions 1) to Adept Major (Inventions 2) and reworking the effect thus:

• Activating a Gadget makes your next attack heal you. The amount healed increases with missing health.
  • 66% + HP: 250+0.1 Healing Power scaling
  • 33% – 66%: 500+0.2 Healing Power scaling
  • 0% – 33%: 750+0.2 Healing Power scaling
• Even assuming something ultra janky like PBR/Rocket Boots/Throw Mine with Gadgeteer for minimised cooldowns, this would result in average 3.6 activations per Gadget per minute which would result in ~10.8 procs. Assuming maximum healing output at ~738 Healing Power from Celestial Amulet and 30 in Inventions and the 33% HP proc each and every single time, this results in 9694.08HP per minute, or 161 Healing per Second – 6HPS above that of Back Pack Regen; but using cooldowns; which has a higher opportunity cost. So now Gadgets have a Sustain option, instead of Zero.

This move of LHRS would be accompanied with swapping Energised Armour down to Adept Minor; which would be a major boon to Power builds wanting to run Inventions, but lacking a defensive choice in Adept.

The second major rework would probably necessitate the removal of either Metal Plating or Autotool Installation; which would be a nerf to Turret Bunker. Probably Autotool Installation; as the trait is pretty hard to tune without making it silly in 1v1s but not insignificant in XvXs.

To replace it would be the following new trait in Master Major (Inventions 4)
Antitoxin Gadget Harness

• Activating a Gadget cleanses 1 condition. If more than 2 Toolbelt Skills are on Cooldown, instead cleanse 2 Conditions.

This would be the breakthrough that Power Engineer needs to approach Tourney Viability – steady, shallow cleanse. Again, using the ultra-janky Throw Mine, PBR, Rocket Boots example, this gives an average 2.9 activations per minute per Gadget without any CDR effects for an potential 17 cleanses per minute – which sounds strong, until you see the conditional of requiring that 2+ Toolbelt skills be on CD. On average one can expect to see maybe 9 per minute, rising to the peak as cooldowns are exchanged. Indubitably strong, but conditionally so; and obviously no-one in their right mind would run PBR/RB/Mine in their current state.

I think that beyond this – and the current discussion reflects my sentiment – is the lack of really good Stunbreaks for Gadget Engineer.

I think a really interesting change would be instead to look at the Toolbelt skill for AED, Static Shock . In its current state, SS is only good for proccing Static Discharge. It’s an otherwise unremarkable Control that barely has enough Stun Frames beyond its aftercast to chain into anything useful.

How about if Static Shock instead transferred a Control effect? This would effectively make SS a pseudo-stunbreak – if you could hit with it. So it would look like thus:
Static Shock

• 0.25 cast (Control effect Transfer (Stun, Daze, Fear, Launch, Push, Pull, Knockdown, Sink)
• Transfer 1 Control effect with its remaining duration to target foe.
• 400 range
• Cooldown 30 seconds
• Power Coefficient 1.00 (770 damage at 2000 Power against 2600 Armour target and 1000 weapon strength weapon)

The effect could be made into a projectile for counterplay reasons (dodge/block/Aegis etc.) to justify its potential fight turning effects at a potentially low cooldown (23 seconds at 30 Tools).

Thus AED becomes the ultimate master baiter – giving massive heals and full cleanses when opponents “kill” you; and turning their own CC against them. It also at a stroke solves Engineer’s problems with being CC chained into oblivion – without resorting to the hard counter that is Stability uptime.

MonMalthias.4763:

In my opinion, the way forward for Gadgets is not a megabuff to Gadgeteer but perhaps in the form of revamping some traits in Inventions instead.

How about if Static Shock instead transferred a Control effect? This would effectively make SS a pseudo-stunbreak – if you could hit with it. So it would look like thus:
Static Shock

• 0.25 cast (Control effect Transfer (Stun, Daze, Fear, Launch, Push, Pull, Knockdown, Sink)
• Transfer 1 Control effect with its remaining duration to target foe.
• 400 range
• Cooldown 30 seconds
• Power Coefficient 1.00 (770 damage at 2000 Power against 2600 Armour target and 1000 weapon strength weapon)

Thus AED becomes the ultimate master baiter – giving massive heals and full cleanses when opponents “kill” you; and turning their own CC against them. It also at a stroke solves Engineer’s problems with being CC chained into oblivion – without resorting to the hard counter that is Stability uptime.

I really like the CC transfer on A.E.D. The only problem is that you have a cast time on it, which means that you can’t activate it when CC effects are on you.. it has to be instant.

The only problem is that the healing per second of A.E.D is not addressed. The Engineer actively shuts down his own sustain simply by not throwing his body at the enemy every time that A.E.D is up. The harsh A.E.D heal condition has the Engineer getting no sustain, sitting on the heal for a long time, until it’s time to die. Meanwhile, other heals are blasting away throughout the whole fight, keeping the Engineer topped. Using A.E.D, I forgot what having a full health meter looked like. There needs to be healing per second while A.E.D is NOT on cooldown. Otherwise it’s like…. "Why are you avoiding damage and dodging things? Just sit in all the damage so you don’t starve yourself of sustain, dummy! And then you realize that eating a ton of damage all the time is not good for sustain either.*

Now, responding to your proposed changes to Inventions. The way you address the agreed upon issues seems to be not light-weight enough. It’s too intrusive on the Inventions trait line, removing traits that are still alive (even if its a zombie playstyle), adding dead weight to minors, and only accomplishes a gadget-only substitute for sustain.

You also say that it’s an alternative to Alchemy, IE, Backpack Regenerator. However, it’s going to be much more beneficial to ditch Tools and pick both sustain lines up. In your plan, Gadgeteer is still god awful, and now can’t even combo boon duration from Alchemy, if players pick up the proposed inventions traits.

Your changes kind of rely on Gadgeteer being good, actually, to increase the synergy with running more and more gadgets. Let’s be real, builds run a kit and a stunbreak, so players can only really take one Gadget and one Gadget stunbreak (long cooldown), so the synergy of lots of Gadget use in tandem with your proposed traits can never be really tapped as you’ve balanced them for.

I feel that when Gadgets are traited, they need to be balanced around being stand alone in a build. Whether as a stand alone stunbreak, or a stand alone utility damage/defense supplement. I like that you have triple-quad gadget builds in mind, but it’s double gadget builds that should be balanced.

Also, don’t feel bad for relying on Backpack Regenerator and Healing Turret for 8 condition removal a minute and a combined 27k healing per minute, and 10k allied healing per minute, up to 4 other people. The need for a gadget-only version of Alchemy’s sustain is not necessarily there.