Guild Wars 2

Lupanic.6502:

You think that condi builds should be able to kitten engis. That’s your opinion and we life in a free world. I respect your opinion but I do not agree with that.

You talked to Napzor. If this is true talk to him once again. He is the person created the turret build
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/Nap-s-Condi-Turreteer-Tpvp-and-1v1-build/first#post4121366

Check his answer about my question about the necro setup.

I still think this is a balance problem and the engi needs help.

First of all, you make it sound as if I never played engineer and am fine with them “being killed” – this is false… I however know from my short experience that in a 1v1 scenario that there is no “auto-win” if the opposing character is playing conditions, with the sole exception of a condition thief, which mind you, is a build many classes struggle against…

I did not talk with Napzor about the state of engineers or versus necromancers – I did however meet him in a match yesterday and checked his stream afterwards… He played a celestial/rifle build with grenades and bombs and not his turrets… Now why would he do that if engineers are “forced” to run a turret build? Because that is my one and only gripe with your statement…

And lastly, and once more, you completely missed my point… Condition engineers versus Terror necromancers should be balanced without crippling other classes… I have said this over and over again! The sustainability of an Engineer is quite good, and you cannot deny that – give them more on a build that is already doing “well” in several 1v1’s and you create a problem that is several times bigger than the issue we have now (Because Turret/Bunker engineers seem to be the bane of SoloQ in NA as we speak as well)

Ok, so we have a least one common point.
I do not deny the sustainabiliy of an Engi
and I do not want more, just balance against condition classes.

I main mesmer, and have also played engi.

Both professions are not meant to have huge control over conditions, but they have enough ways to manage them pretty well. Of course in both you have to build for it, but that’s the reason they suffer from conditions. It was said in the balance live stream both classes official design is to have trouble against overload of conditions.

Speaking about engi, if you take Healing turret, Elixir C, Cleaning Formula 409 and Lemongrass you shouldn’t have any problems even against condi necros. It’s true you’ve to give up quite a lot of things, but the same happens to mesmer.

PD: It’s quite stupid to say engis have the lowest amount of condi cleansings of the game. thiefs are the ones that have the hardest time to control condis. And even mesmers have more difficulties than engis, as they’re a trait and utility class, and all condi cleansing they have are from there.

You can avoid taking a lot of damage to fear as an engineer, but will struggle with fear.
The issue is engineers facing terrormancers wanting to hold a point versus being a roamer.
In WvW, you simply use range against the terrormancer and can do just fine.

It really is only in a few situations such as pvp holding a point where the engineer’s condition removal is really bad.

Immob bombs are tough too, but we do have the abilities to stack a lot of minus immob time traits and foods etc. at a cost.

CC hits me harder than condition damage personally in most situations.

GoogleBrandon.5073:

I already said in this thread why a Terrormancer is able to take down an engineer fast, and it has more to do with the amount of boons an engineer spams in less than 20 seconds than it has to do with their incapability of “quickly removing boons”… A Necromancer has no burst – period. Aside from SoS, it relies heavily on freecasting and corrupting the right boons to slowly take down an enemy…

we are the only class that has to proc a boon to get vigor, to get that vigor means we cant not take the trait that procs a elixir B at 75% hp, thats 5 boons that we get just trying to get our vigor, we get that vigor because it greatly helps with out sustain, if we dont take it we make ourselfs more susceptible to CC which is also just a big of counter to engineers as conditions are.

so the problem here is, take defense against CC get wreaked by conditions(mind you CC still messes with us pritty well), don’t take defense against CC get wreaked by CC and conditions now it wouldn’t be so bad but the fact that our best options for defense literally sett us up for our own destruction then i think its time anet made a change that’s actually effective like instead of giving us more boons (something we don’t overly need) maybe make that new gadgeteer trait transfer a condition to targets instead of moar booons.

needless to say we don’t need our current builds buffed with more condition removal we need other utilitys/traits to be buffed so we are forced into new builds if we want condition removal.

Aberrant.6749:

insanemaniac.2456:

Lupanic.6502:

insanemaniac.2456:

transmute + generosity + heal turret + rifle 4 + rocket boots is more than enough condi cleanse :P

With rifle + rocket boots your build sucks and you still have no answer to terrormencer

its fine in wvw

Aka it’s fine when you just need to run away to friends to outnumber Vs. WvW-ers (who tend to be far less skilled players)… unfortunately that doesn’t work so well in actual PvP.

“actual pvp” is about sitting on points for as long as possible, not killing people

plus im more talking about duels in OS where you do in fact see skilled players and running to friends is a non factor

insanemaniac.2456:

Aberrant.6749:

insanemaniac.2456:

Lupanic.6502:

insanemaniac.2456:

transmute + generosity + heal turret + rifle 4 + rocket boots is more than enough condi cleanse :P

With rifle + rocket boots your build sucks and you still have no answer to terrormencer

its fine in wvw

Aka it’s fine when you just need to run away to friends to outnumber Vs. WvW-ers (who tend to be far less skilled players)… unfortunately that doesn’t work so well in actual PvP.

“actual pvp” is about sitting on points for as long as possible, not killing people

plus im more talking about duels in OS where you do in fact see skilled players and running to friends is a non factor

You need to both defend and take points. That involves killing people. It involves a lot more coordination than a duel.

Duels are inherently imbalanced in this game. It’s build Vs. build. Add imbalanced stats from gear/food from PvE and huge open space… yea…

I used to hardcore solo roam/duel in WvW until my server hit t1 (where it’s all rubbish). PvP is far better balanced and takes more skill anyways though.

Rifle + rb isn’t a good answer to eng’s cond problems… it’s fine for mobility, but it’s not as if they clear damaging conds or anything.

Aberrant.6749:

insanemaniac.2456:

Aberrant.6749:

insanemaniac.2456:

Lupanic.6502:

insanemaniac.2456:

transmute + generosity + heal turret + rifle 4 + rocket boots is more than enough condi cleanse :P

With rifle + rocket boots your build sucks and you still have no answer to terrormencer

its fine in wvw

Aka it’s fine when you just need to run away to friends to outnumber Vs. WvW-ers (who tend to be far less skilled players)… unfortunately that doesn’t work so well in actual PvP.

“actual pvp” is about sitting on points for as long as possible, not killing people

plus im more talking about duels in OS where you do in fact see skilled players and running to friends is a non factor

You need to both defend and take points. That involves killing people. It involves a lot more coordination than a duel.

Duels are inherently imbalanced in this game. It’s build Vs. build. Add imbalanced stats from gear/food from PvE and huge open space… yea…

I used to hardcore solo roam/duel in WvW until my server hit t1 (where it’s all rubbish). PvP is far better balanced and takes more skill anyways though.

Rifle + rb isn’t a good answer to eng’s cond problems… it’s fine for mobility, but it’s not as if they clear damaging conds or anything.

abberrant is correct, slotting rb wastes way to much utility in tpvp and rifle #4 has to be used for setting up burst or decaping, no if buts or maybes there, even if you did use it to clear conditions you get knocked on your kitten and the damaging conditions are still ticking use it defensively and your most likely to set your self up to be burst on by your opponent.

Hello frands! Vee Wee here, retired #1 Engi NA and world first rank 80!

Thanks for all the replies! I don’t want to be mean but some people here I don’t think understand what I am trying to say in this thread! For example!

1. Well Vee Wee, Engineers should be weak to conditions!
Yes I agree! But I think you guys think there are only two choices available! We either be super extremely awful weak to conditions like we are now, or we be totally immune to conditions! That’s not the case! Having more condition removal (especially ones that aren’t not built into the meta build variants now, but I’ll get to that later!) doesn’t mean we’re not weak to conditions anymore! We’ll still be weak to conditions! I hope you understand my view now because it’s the 4th time I’m typing it!

2. Vee Wee you noob! If Engineers get more condition removal, then something else has got to give!
I agree with this too! Unless Engineers have 10 trait points more than everybody else, things like Protection Injection or Backpack Injection or whatever will have to be sacrificed! That was the Inventions/Tools Tree condition removal option! The other options were things like offhand pistol or gadgets! Are you telling me someone with condition removal on Slick Shoes or Personal Battering Ram or whatever is going to “cripple other classes” like Ele or Ranger or whatever when fighting an Engi! That is just thilly! I hope you understand this now!

Wahoo! Bye frands!

Why does something have to give beyond what we already give?

he devs have stated that we are balanced around having ta least one kit (if not more) occupying a utility slot. That is a slot that other professions can load a condition cleanse or a stun breaker. Engineers only have one kit that has either of those, and it has some of both. As I see it, they need to spread that around a little to the other kits that occupy a utility slot.

I can certainly agree that we need stunbreaks in more places, but condition removal isn’t terrible.

This is the latest official design philosophy for the Engineer from Arenanet based on the June 13 Ready Up Developer Livestream notes:

•Official design: Condition overload – it is by design they don’t have a lot of condition removals but we don’t want conditions to be a hard counter for engineers. You can counter the conditions with your hard and soft CCs (i.e. stuns, cripples). The issue is when you fighting multiple opponents that you can’t really counter all the conditions. Limited spike potential – we want to make sure engineers don’t do too much spike damage as there was a time in the past where this was an issue. Versatility through utility skills. Difficulty from disengage from a fight – harder than thief/mesmer.

So, I don’t think you are going to have much luck in getting them to up the Engineer’s condition removal. They are weak to conditions by design. Working as intended.

Thanks.

So we’re warriors based on the original dev posted balancing philosophies. Then they added cleansing ire amount other things. So history shows that argument doesn’t hold much water.

dancingmonkey.4902:

So we’re warriors based on the original dev posted balancing philosophies. Then they added cleansing ire amount other things. So history shows that argument doesn’t hold much water.

No you’re a engineer. Engineer isn’t exactly weak like Warrior was before HS and Cleansing Ire came out, plus envisioning of the class tbh it matches up now. Warriors are sturdy melee based fighters, compare them to before where you just beat them up a few times and they’ll drop if they stay in combat more then a few seconds. AKA free kill in which Condition bombing easily does this. The only thing having a good time dealing with Engis are necros, because they can make engis eat their own condition faceroll (Dagger 4 ,Plague signet)and they have limited ways to deal with that many conditions. But bottom line, want something buffed like more condition removal? Be prepared to give up something for it, or tweak your spec as much as you can to accommodate more condi removal. Engis aren’t really weak, they’re actually kinda strong, and very trolly.

Lucentfir.7430:

dancingmonkey.4902:

So we’re warriors based on the original dev posted balancing philosophies. Then they added cleansing ire amount other things. So history shows that argument doesn’t hold much water.

No you’re a engineer. Engineer isn’t exactly weak like Warrior was before HS and Cleansing Ire came out, plus envisioning of the class tbh it matches up now. Warriors are sturdy melee based fighters, compare them to before where you just beat them up a few times and they’ll drop if they stay in combat more then a few seconds. AKA free kill in which Condition bombing easily does this. The only thing having a good time dealing with Engis are necros, because they can make engis eat their own condition faceroll (Dagger 4 ,Plague signet)and they have limited ways to deal with that many conditions. But bottom line, want something buffed like more condition removal? Be prepared to give up something for it, or tweak your spec as much as you can to accommodate more condi removal. Engis aren’t really weak, they’re actually kinda strong, and very trolly.

Eng is weak vs any cond build that puts out more than 2 conditions…
Eng has had it’s resistance to conds (which was already low) lowered…
Again, I don’t think anyone is asking for eng to be strong vs conds, just not quite as weak as they are now after the nerfs.

I jumped into this topic (which I really support) just to say that I’m starting to love VeeWee.

Lucentfir.7430:

No you’re a engineer.

Actually I have leveled all 8 professions in sPvP and WvW, and play all regularly. Your sig on the other hand suggest you only play two professions.

Lucentfir.7430:

Engineer isn’t exactly weak like Warrior was before HS and Cleansing Ire came out,

Actually it is. Much weaker actually. Warrior had both the option to use berzerker stance (60s CD) and be immune to condition application as well as signet of stamina to cleanse all conditions(45s CD), Shake it off, and Mobile strikes. The engineer has only Elixir C on a 60s cooldown.

Lucentfir.7430:

Warriors are sturdy melee based fighters

Conveniently ignoring rifle and long bow I see.

Lucentfir.7430:

compare them to before where you just beat them up a few times and they’ll drop if they stay in combat more then a few seconds. AKA free kill in which Condition bombing easily does this.

Interesting. Because what you describe here fits engineers now.

Lucentfir.7430:

Engis aren’t really weak, they’re actually kinda strong, and very trolly.

But warriors by comparison are actually VERY strong and trolly.

dancingmonkey.4902:

Lucentfir.7430:

No you’re a engineer.

Actually I have leveled all 8 professions in sPvP and WvW, and play all regularly. Your sig on the other hand suggest you only play two professions.

Lucentfir.7430:

Engineer isn’t exactly weak like Warrior was before HS and Cleansing Ire came out,

Actually it is. Much weaker actually. Warrior had both the option to use berzerker stance (60s CD) and be immune to condition application as well as signet of stamina to cleanse all conditions(45s CD), Shake it off, and Mobile strikes. The engineer has only Elixir C on a 60s cooldown.

Lucentfir.7430:

Warriors are sturdy melee based fighters

Conveniently ignoring rifle and long bow I see.

Lucentfir.7430:

compare them to before where you just beat them up a few times and they’ll drop if they stay in combat more then a few seconds. AKA free kill in which Condition bombing easily does this.

Interesting. Because what you describe here fits engineers now.

Lucentfir.7430:

Engis aren’t really weak, they’re actually kinda strong, and very trolly.

But warriors by comparison are actually VERY strong and trolly.

1. I have just about every class except ranger, and they are fully leveled and geared. So i don’t know why you’re bringing up the signature thing. I switch around from class to class time to time depending on what I feel like playing.

2.Before Berserker Stance never gave you Condition prevention, it was just adrenaline gain. Signet of stamina is meh and acts the same as Elixir C, but wait the CD? Well that’s the idea of a higher cd when it converts conditions into boons =_= instead of just removing them. Lets not forget CD reduced by having Fast Acting Elixirs. Mending’s healing base is pretty low for okay condition removal(before 2 conditions removed only, post buff three). Shake it off is okay 1 condition removed with a stun break on a 20-25s cd. And mobile strikes removes immoblize which takes a master slot(And only works on things like Rush and GS3). Also pre-buffed warrior had little access to things like Regeneration and protection so even less survivable.

3. Well those are ranged options, 2 ranged weapons out of how many melee weapons? A lot of the damage comes from melee specs unless you’re bothering to trait for rifle and build around it. As for longbow doesn’t have a lot of damage on it unless you stand in CS ,eat multiple Arching Arrows, and eat a point blank Fan of Fires frequently.

4. As for conditions well if you don’t bother taking enough removal expect to get wrecked by conditions. Engis that build condition spec can easily face roll anything that isn’t a necro(since necros make them eat their own overload faceroll). With warriors before the buffs, all you needed to do was consistently poke them and they’d either have to run away or die, because they had no defensive boons, no real access of regeneration(Aside from banners but that’s a 6 point investment), in sense they could not keep any pressure on anyone meaning they were fodder.

5. Not as much as a engineer, hammer warrior is about equal with them when it comes to trolling.

Lucentfir.7430:

Well those are ranged options, 2 ranged weapons out of how many melee weapons? A lot of the damage comes from melee specs unless you’re bothering to trait for rifle and build around it. As for longbow doesn’t have a lot of damage on it unless you stand in CS ,eat multiple Arching Arrows, and eat a point blank Fan of Fires frequently.

Yet they both have natively longer range then the weapons engineers have available. Rifle caps at 1000 range for only one damage skill, while pistols cap at 900, natively.

dancingmonkey.4902:

Lucentfir.7430:

Well those are ranged options, 2 ranged weapons out of how many melee weapons? A lot of the damage comes from melee specs unless you’re bothering to trait for rifle and build around it. As for longbow doesn’t have a lot of damage on it unless you stand in CS ,eat multiple Arching Arrows, and eat a point blank Fan of Fires frequently.

Yet they both have natively longer range then the weapons engineers have available. Rifle caps at 1000 range for only one damage skill, while pistols cap at 900, natively.

You have it wrong longbow is respectively 1000 Range and can be traited to be 1200 range(Stronger Bowstrings). Engineer has a trait as well that can make rifle 1200 ranged (Rifled Barrels 200 range increase on Rifle, pistol and Elixir Gun). Warrior rifle is the only 1200 ranged weapon. Also this is going off topic.

interesting fact folks elixir C has 40 second cooldown, which makes it the full cleanse with the second shortest cooldown (the first is consume conditions).

Tim.6450:

interesting fact folks elixir C has 40 second cooldown, which makes it the full cleanse with the second shortest cooldown (the first is consume conditions).

But it does not help against fear. Non stunbearker and travel time makes it bad

Bhawb.7408:

And Necromancers should have lots of boons and mobility, and Thieves need to tank!

Seriously though, its designed for them to be weak to conditions.

QFE.

If they receive buffs in the condi removal department, you should handicap them elsewhere, perhaps remove damage and CC options drastically to make up for it. Can’t have it all you know.

P.S. I can’t stress enough how annoying OP’s way of writing is. Must.. keep.. insults.. back.

Lucentfir.7430:

dancingmonkey.4902:

Lucentfir.7430:

Well those are ranged options, 2 ranged weapons out of how many melee weapons? A lot of the damage comes from melee specs unless you’re bothering to trait for rifle and build around it. As for longbow doesn’t have a lot of damage on it unless you stand in CS ,eat multiple Arching Arrows, and eat a point blank Fan of Fires frequently.

Yet they both have natively longer range then the weapons engineers have available. Rifle caps at 1000 range for only one damage skill, while pistols cap at 900, natively.

You have it wrong longbow is respectively 1000 Range and can be traited to be 1200 range(Stronger Bowstrings). Engineer has a trait as well that can make rifle 1200 ranged (Rifled Barrels 200 range increase on Rifle, pistol and Elixir Gun). Warrior rifle is the only 1200 ranged weapon. Also this is going off topic.

Longbow actually shoots quite a bit further than that…

Malcastus.6240:

If they receive buffs in the condi removal department, you should handicap them elsewhere, perhaps remove damage and CC options drastically to make up for it. Can’t have it all you know.

I agree if it’s buffed a lot then something needs to give.

However, eng’s cond resistance was recently nerfed. I think most eng’s would be happy with just getting a little something to balance that out.

Malcastus.6240:

If they receive buffs in the condi removal department, you should handicap them elsewhere, perhaps remove damage and CC options drastically to make up for it. Can’t have it all you know.

P.S. I can’t stress enough how annoying OP’s way of writing is. Must.. keep.. insults.. back.

Isn’t the fact that we are “designed” and “balanced” for kits to take up a utility slot handicap enough? We have no kit that has anything dedicated to condition removal, and only one that has a stun breaker. That is where I feel the problem lies. We are “balanced” by design to utilize 1/3 of our utility slots in order to have a weapon swap of any kind, which is very limiting for stun breaker and actual cleansing options.

dancingmonkey.4902:

Malcastus.6240:

If they receive buffs in the condi removal department, you should handicap them elsewhere, perhaps remove damage and CC options drastically to make up for it. Can’t have it all you know.

P.S. I can’t stress enough how annoying OP’s way of writing is. Must.. keep.. insults.. back.

Isn’t the fact that we are “designed” and “balanced” for kits to take up a utility slot handicap enough? We have no kit that has anything dedicated to condition removal, and only one that has a stun breaker. That is where I feel the problem lies. We are “balanced” by design to utilize 1/3 of our utility slots in order to have a weapon swap of any kind, which is very limiting for stun breaker and actual cleansing options.

Yet disregard the advantages of using kits, and forget that three kit builds exist. Condition removal available for any sort of generic build (Healing Turret +2(15-20s CD), Elixir Gun 5 +1, Transmute(15s CD and converts incoming condition) +1, Really in dire need of mass removal use Elixir C for a Condition Wipe→boons, and it comes with Toss Elixer C which is +1 more on condition removal). You have 1 stunbreak, a decent amount or condition removal. Conditions it’s what everyone has to deal with. Same with full dps build with barely any condition removal find a way to incorporate it into your build as much as you can by switching around things in your spec. You don’t need a kit dedicated to removing loads of conditions. The most I’d see coming is making Elixir C a instant cast so it can turn things like Fear into stability.

Lucentfir.7430:

Yet disregard the advantages of using kits, and forget that three kit builds exist. Condition removal available for any sort of generic build (Healing Turret +2(15-20s CD), Elixir Gun 5 +1, Transmute(15s CD and converts incoming condition) +1, Really in dire need of mass removal use Elixir C for a Condition Wipe->boons, and it comes with Toss Elixer C which is +1 more on condition removal). You have 1 stunbreak, a decent amount or condition removal. Conditions it’s what everyone has to deal with. Same with full dps build with barely any condition removal find a way to incorporate it into your build as much as you can by switching around things in your spec. You don’t need a kit dedicated to removing loads of conditions. The most I’d see coming is making Elixir C a instant cast so it can turn things like Fear into stability.

EG+C… would make for a horrid useless build which is why it’s not done.