(edited by Necrotize.2974)
Every class but the one I play is OP!
Most of the criticism I have seen has been somewhat genuine.
Common topics: Celestial builds having an imbalance of tankiness and damage. Current version of Ranger,previous version of Warrior, too little risk vs reward.
Every thing is just a variation of these 2 issues. Balance between tankiness and damage, balance between risk vs reward. People complain when they feel these things are out of whack.
Are things out of whack? Likely. You buff a ranged class then mele takes a dive. You buff mele ranged takes a dive. Perfect balance is impossible. Someone is always going to feel short changed. Does this make complaints any less legit? Not really. In this game of rock paper sizzors, someone is going to always feel short changed.
We don’t need to make mandatory gear treadmills, we make all of it optional
Anet lied (where’s the Manifesto now?)
Anet lied (where’s the Manifesto now?)
(edited by Relentliss.2170)
But what happens if you buff ranged and nerf melee? That could be quite a predicament.
But what happens if you buff ranged and nerf melee? That could be quite a predicament.
Maybe they’d just cancel out?
But what happens if you buff ranged and nerf melee? That could be quite a predicament.
Maybe they’d just cancel out?
No they don’t cancel out, a larger chasm of unbalance is created. I apologize but my question was rhetorical, I assumed the fact that doing so would be absurd would be apparent.
But what happens if you buff ranged and nerf melee? That could be quite a predicament.
Maybe they’d just cancel out?
No they don’t cancel out, a larger chasm of unbalance is created. I apologize but my question was rhetorical, I assumed the fact that doing so would be absurd would be apparent.
i’ll tell you two things before patch.
this is to not Include full zerker buffs.
LB didn’t need blocking , didn’t need dodging, didn’t need Reflecting.
it was a simple gap close and kill , then with the Really weak short range of Long shot (they had no chance to swap weapons because of a cooldown)
so in the end as soon as a ranger swapped to a LB , it was Charge it and kill (he might get lucky and survive a few more secs with PBS/Hunters shot.
in the end the damage in this Situaton wasn’t enough to get other classes to even consider any Defence praticly none apart from stealth can be ignored since that is mainly a Difent trait of a build or a very short term trick to get a target to loose focus.
if people think that the above was balanced, i realy think some people should think a lot more Deeply, these changes where a Lot more than just a Skill Balance its changed the way we Fight , we Think about combat and even more importantly its but some life back into the combat of the game.
But what happens if you buff ranged and nerf melee? That could be quite a predicament.
Maybe they’d just cancel out?
No they don’t cancel out, a larger chasm of unbalance is created. I apologize but my question was rhetorical, I assumed the fact that doing so would be absurd would be apparent.
i’ll tell you two things before patch.
this is to not Include full zerker buffs.
LB didn’t need blocking , didn’t need dodging, didn’t need Reflecting.
it was a simple gap close and kill , then with the Really weak short range of Long shot (they had no chance to swap weapons because of a cooldown)
so in the end as soon as a ranger swapped to a LB , it was Charge it and kill (he might get lucky and survive a few more secs with PBS/Hunters shot.in the end the damage in this Situaton wasn’t enough to get other classes to even consider any Defence praticly none apart from stealth can be ignored since that is mainly a Difent trait of a build or a very short term trick to get a target to loose focus.
if people think that the above was balanced, i realy think some people should think a lot more Deeply, these changes where a Lot more than just a Skill Balance its changed the way we Fight , we Think about combat and even more importantly its but some life back into the combat of the game.
I’m not quite sure if you agree with me or not so I’ll just explain myself a bit more. I have no problems with the current changes to the Ranger class. The only problems I have with Rangers is that currently there are not many counter to a full zerk Ranger traited with Eagle Eye standing on a ledge. However, I would say that this was smart placement on the rangers part, and considering the Ranger is single target DPS it’s not THAT bad. It is still a flaw that a Ranger can remain at such a long distance and do significant damage while not being able to be attacked.
Also I do know how Ranger was pre-patch, and their weakness is still gap closing. But as I’ve seen in multiple threads you cannot really gap close a distance of 1500. I think you are being a little melodramatic with your closing sentence, but whatever suits your tastes I suppose. A grenade Engineer was doing what Rangers are now doing since months ago. The only different is that Rangers are doing it better (which is too be expected) but possibly TOO effectively.
Note: No offence, and English may not be your first language, but you should possibly look into some sort of spell check because your text gets a little indecipherable sometimes.
I think the main problem is people on this forums get so worked into a frenzy. Something is either game-breakingly OP or utterly worthless.. there doesn’t seem to be much room for things to be maybe a little overbuffed or a little overnerfed, it has to be a serious meltdown every time.
I mean the Ranger buff is the most current example… Maybe they did slightly over buff RF. There’s no doubt it’s now much better than it was… But come on, for LB rangers being a game-wide joke to the most OP thing that people are “quitting” over it, just because 2.5s came off the cast time? Please…
Cufufalating – Ranger / Part-Time Mesmer
Gunnar’s Hold
Gunnar’s Hold
I think the main problem is people on this forums get so worked into a frenzy. Something is either game-breakingly OP or utterly worthless.. there doesn’t seem to be much room for things to be maybe a little overbuffed or a little overnerfed, it has to be a serious meltdown every time.
I mean the Ranger buff is the most current example… Maybe they did slightly over buff RF. There’s no doubt it’s now much better than it was… But come on, for LB rangers being a game-wide joke to the most OP thing that people are “quitting” over it, just because 2.5s came off the cast time? Please…
Unfortunately this has happened to Warriors and Elementalists. I can’t remember if the other classes have experienced this.
But what happens if you buff ranged and nerf melee? That could be quite a predicament.
Maybe they’d just cancel out?
No they don’t cancel out, a larger chasm of unbalance is created. I apologize but my question was rhetorical, I assumed the fact that doing so would be absurd would be apparent.
i’ll tell you two things before patch.
this is to not Include full zerker buffs.
LB didn’t need blocking , didn’t need dodging, didn’t need Reflecting.
it was a simple gap close and kill , then with the Really weak short range of Long shot (they had no chance to swap weapons because of a cooldown)
so in the end as soon as a ranger swapped to a LB , it was Charge it and kill (he might get lucky and survive a few more secs with PBS/Hunters shot.in the end the damage in this Situaton wasn’t enough to get other classes to even consider any Defence praticly none apart from stealth can be ignored since that is mainly a Difent trait of a build or a very short term trick to get a target to loose focus.
if people think that the above was balanced, i realy think some people should think a lot more Deeply, these changes where a Lot more than just a Skill Balance its changed the way we Fight , we Think about combat and even more importantly its but some life back into the combat of the game.
I’m not quite sure if you agree with me or not so I’ll just explain myself a bit more. I have no problems with the current changes to the Ranger class. The only problems I have with Rangers is that currently there are not many counter to a full zerk Ranger traited with Eagle Eye standing on a ledge. However, I would say that this was smart placement on the rangers part, and considering the Ranger is single target DPS it’s not THAT bad. It is still a flaw that a Ranger can remain at such a long distance and do significant damage while not being able to be attacked.
Also I do know how Ranger was pre-patch, and their weakness is still gap closing. But as I’ve seen in multiple threads you cannot really gap close a distance of 1500. I think you are being a little melodramatic with your closing sentence, but whatever suits your tastes I suppose. A grenade Engineer was doing what Rangers are now doing since months ago. The only different is that Rangers are doing it better (which is too be expected) but possibly TOO effectively.
Note: No offence, and English may not be your first language, but you should possibly look into some sort of spell check because your text gets a little indecipherable sometimes.
Can you name a pvp map where you are out in the open at 1500 range with no alternative way to get within 1200-900 units on points ( because this game is about point and that has been the issue with a lot of arguements).
And a map where terrain is nonexistent for you to use to get within this distance?
There probably are a bunch of issues given the not so subtle ways of balance, but often times instead of making angry threads about something I actually play the allegedly OP class in question and that’s worked wonders. It also makes you a bit more informed instead of trying to figure out why a skill is OP when you’ve actually never used it. Indeed, when I see people constructing these “OP” theorycraft builds that they’ve most likely never used before, I can just feel free to ignore them.
For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards,
for there you have been and there you will long to return.
for there you have been and there you will long to return.
But what happens if you buff ranged and nerf melee? That could be quite a predicament.
Then maybe you create a somewhat realistic situation in a larger fight. Realistically speaking the first few lines of melee troops would have very little chance of even making it to the enemy alive. That’s not what they’re there for.
In organized armies, they’d have shields and all to try absorb as much damage as possible, but it’s still accepted that they’re purely meant to be cannon fodder. The actual troops follow behind them, the first lines falling to ranged fire so the second set of troops can overrun the enemy positions.
This is also why it’s so important that your short-range ranged troops are initially in front of the melee troops, and step behind them after firing. You need your own close-range combat troops to bear the brunt of the enemy charge should they make it (because obviously if you dominate ranged, you don’t want them to).
Going on a huge tangent here, I know. Point is, I can’t stand this incessant focus on 1v1 balance as if that’s in any way related or relevant to a class-based RPG. You should be a shield frontliner, absorbing arrows from 30+ attackers before one finally fells you. Or a charge troop, with a high chance to die to stray fire but wreaking havoc once you hit close range. Or a ranged fighter, blasting or shooting enemies by the dozen only once they close you better have people near you who can bear the charge.
And so on.
This game needs more specialization, especially in regards to it’s PvP. However, most players are interested in there being as little as possible because they have the somewhat absurd (sorry) idea that all characters should have an equal fighting chance against one another (which is flat out impossible due to this being a class-based game, plus extra specs).
The strength of heart to face oneself has been made manifest. The persona Carighan has appeared.
But what happens if you buff ranged and nerf melee? That could be quite a predicament.
Maybe they’d just cancel out?
No they don’t cancel out, a larger chasm of unbalance is created. I apologize but my question was rhetorical, I assumed the fact that doing so would be absurd would be apparent.
I was joking… That kind of was the intention of this thread btw. Not to call any class in particular out but to mock the way most people go about asking for changes.
how well a class is played is relative to player inteligence experiance and planning
The classic longbow ranger is a total noob but catch one who knows how to weapon swap to greatsword knows how to chain and got exelent evasion and hes gunna break you out. A ranger both adept at GS and Longbow also is very hard to catch and may leave a battlefield within seconds using his long range leap as well as some swiftness.
Mesmer is totaly dependant on the player skill as well as other ability to deal with it. A very bad mesmer may actualy destroy a good player who simply put cannot keep track of the real one regardless of skill between the two but anyone who can actualy keep track correctly can deal with an invisibility spammer. The same way a shatter master is nigh unstoppable.
Thief can be hard to play because of its lack of survivability but is master at escaping battle, its all about how well you can use it.
Warrior can be both easy to play (condition spamming bunker) and actualy difficult as a very good zerk war can punish people accordingly, it entirely depends on the player ability.
Enginer rely on a lot of options and mastering them all may take time especialy if you intend to chain with them.
By definition player skills can make what seems an ordinary feature totaly OP. Hambow is the worse exemple of this as a condition warrior can spam might stack like crazy (ive seen up to 25 on a hambow) while dealing ridiculus dot and control damage. Even today hambow is a serious menace in spvp when well played. Separately hammer and longbow are somewhat bad but the moment you mix them togueter the synergy between the two weapon set becomes somewhat stupid strong.
Crystal Desert, The Darknest Community P.E.T.A.
BM: I want to present you my lovely jingle bear mia
If pet had voices: Mommy, I did it! :3
BM: I want to present you my lovely jingle bear mia
If pet had voices: Mommy, I did it! :3
But what happens if you buff ranged and nerf melee? That could be quite a predicament.
Maybe they’d just cancel out?
No they don’t cancel out, a larger chasm of unbalance is created. I apologize but my question was rhetorical, I assumed the fact that doing so would be absurd would be apparent.
I was joking… That kind of was the intention of this thread btw. Not to call any class in particular out but to mock the way most people go about asking for changes.
Oh goodness looks like I am guilty of the folly I accused you of, sorry.
@ Solori
Well for starters your question is a bit silly. If there was no way to get up to the Region where it is possible to shoot from 1500, that person wouldn’t be able to get up there anyways. Regardless I will attempt to address your points. Battle of Kyhlo, Forest of Niflhel, and Legacy of FoeFire all have regions where it would be nearly impossible to fight a well placed ranged character. But that’s exactly the problem with Conquest modes when it comes to this strategy. In this situation a person can sit up and take someone down before they have a chance to reach them. It doesn’t matter that they aren’t unreachable. But that they can kill someone before that person can even move towards the threat.
However, and I assume you forgot to read this part, I specifically stated that this kind of intelligent thinking about placement is not to be discouraged. It is simply too effective though, as there are not many counters to someone picking off individuals from a distance. If this was war, I would say get over it. But this is a video game, and everyone’s enjoyment is increased (and hence profits also increase) if the game is fairly balanced. Should the team that puts it’s teams placement into consideration get an advantage over a disorganized team? Absolutely, but not so strong of an advantage as some teams are getting just because they have one person able to attack from such a safe distance.
@ Solori
Well for starters your question is a bit silly. If there was no way to get up to the Region where it is possible to shoot from 1500, that person wouldn’t be able to get up there anyways. Regardless I will attempt to address your points. Battle of Kyhlo, Forest of Niflhel, and Legacy of FoeFire all have regions where it would be nearly impossible to fight a well placed ranged character. But that’s exactly the problem with Conquest modes when it comes to this strategy. In this situation a person can sit up and take someone down before they have a chance to reach them. It doesn’t matter that they aren’t unreachable. But that they can kill someone before that person can even move towards the threat.
However, and I assume you forgot to read this part, I specifically stated that this kind of intelligent thinking about placement is not to be discouraged. It is simply too effective though, as there are not many counters to someone picking off individuals from a distance. If this was war, I would say get over it. But this is a video game, and everyone’s enjoyment is increased (and hence profits also increase) if the game is fairly balanced. Should the team that puts it’s teams placement into consideration get an advantage over a disorganized team? Absolutely, but not so strong of an advantage as some teams are getting just because they have one person able to attack from such a safe distance.
That was not only vague.
It didn’t answer my question.
Maybe i need to revise it?
Where are these placement’s that give you a 1500 range advantage,that has no counters? No way to reliably use terrain or close the distance.
Lets give a scenerio maybe this will help.
The ranger has a capture point.
You see the ranger is now sitting on this point.
What map is there where you cant get to this capture point?
Scenerio two-
You are capturing a capture point.
You see the ranger is coming towards you.
What map is there where you can not LoS or close the distance, before losing this capture point?
This is basically what I am asking
because I haven’t seen a map where anyone can sit 1500 units and keep a point contested.
But what happens if you buff ranged and nerf melee? That could be quite a predicament.
Maybe they’d just cancel out?
No they don’t cancel out, a larger chasm of unbalance is created. I apologize but my question was rhetorical, I assumed the fact that doing so would be absurd would be apparent.
I was joking… That kind of was the intention of this thread btw. Not to call any class in particular out but to mock the way most people go about asking for changes.
Oh goodness looks like I am guilty of the folly I accused you of, sorry.
All good, sarcasm is not meant for the internet but sadly that’s when I feel the most sarcastic. This thread really took a serious turn when I didn’t really expect it to be more than people joking lol.
@ Solori
Well for starters your question is a bit silly. If there was no way to get up to the Region where it is possible to shoot from 1500, that person wouldn’t be able to get up there anyways. Regardless I will attempt to address your points. Battle of Kyhlo, Forest of Niflhel, and Legacy of FoeFire all have regions where it would be nearly impossible to fight a well placed ranged character. But that’s exactly the problem with Conquest modes when it comes to this strategy. In this situation a person can sit up and take someone down before they have a chance to reach them. It doesn’t matter that they aren’t unreachable. But that they can kill someone before that person can even move towards the threat.
However, and I assume you forgot to read this part, I specifically stated that this kind of intelligent thinking about placement is not to be discouraged. It is simply too effective though, as there are not many counters to someone picking off individuals from a distance. If this was war, I would say get over it. But this is a video game, and everyone’s enjoyment is increased (and hence profits also increase) if the game is fairly balanced. Should the team that puts it’s teams placement into consideration get an advantage over a disorganized team? Absolutely, but not so strong of an advantage as some teams are getting just because they have one person able to attack from such a safe distance.
That was not only vague.
It didn’t answer my question.
Maybe i need to revise it?Where are these placement’s that give you a 1500 range advantage,that has no counters? No way to reliably use terrain or close the distance.
Lets give a scenerio maybe this will help.
The ranger has a capture point.
You see the ranger is now sitting on this point.
What map is there where you cant get to this capture point?Scenerio two-
You are capturing a capture point.
You see the ranger is coming towards you.What map is there where you can not LoS or close the distance, before losing this capture point?
This is basically what I am asking
because I haven’t seen a map where anyone can sit 1500 units and keep a point contested.
I think his point is that the Ranger himself isn’t trying to contest a point, he’s trying to clear it so his teammate can capture it.
If you are standing on point, you don’t really have much in the way of options to deal with said ranger without leaving the point.
Stay on point? You eventually die. Leave the point to kill the Ranger? You lose the point to his buddy.
That said, I feel this is a wonderful new situation for PvP. Roaming is more important now so you can take out those long-range bunker-busters. It helps break PvP out of the bunker meta while still leaving a spot for traditional bunkers.
@ Solori
That was not only vague.
It didn’t answer my question.
Maybe i need to revise it?Where are these placement’s that give you a 1500 range advantage,that has no counters? No way to reliably use terrain or close the distance.
Lets give a scenerio maybe this will help.
The ranger has a capture point.
You see the ranger is now sitting on this point.
What map is there where you cant get to this capture point?Scenerio two-
You are capturing a capture point.
You see the ranger is coming towards you.What map is there where you can not LoS or close the distance, before losing this capture point?
This is basically what I am asking
because I haven’t seen a map where anyone can sit 1500 units and keep a point contested.
Ah now I see what you are saying! That was definitely much clearer. To answer your question doing extreme damage at 1500 helps contest the point by providing incredible damage from a safe distance. Think of it like this. You have a bunker at home being swarmed by three people. Said person at 1500 range starts firing upon these three foes, one is downed and finished off by the bunker as the other two react. Bunker holds off one while another splits off to engage, but before that second player can reach he is downed and being killed. Two down and the final person is still in range, you can guess the rest. Line of sight would be a good idea if this was not a Conquest oriented PvP scenario.
@ Solori
That was not only vague.
It didn’t answer my question.
Maybe i need to revise it?Where are these placement’s that give you a 1500 range advantage,that has no counters? No way to reliably use terrain or close the distance.
Lets give a scenerio maybe this will help.
The ranger has a capture point.
You see the ranger is now sitting on this point.
What map is there where you cant get to this capture point?Scenerio two-
You are capturing a capture point.
You see the ranger is coming towards you.What map is there where you can not LoS or close the distance, before losing this capture point?
This is basically what I am asking
because I haven’t seen a map where anyone can sit 1500 units and keep a point contested.
Ah now I see what you are saying! That was definitely much clearer. To answer your question doing extreme damage at 1500 helps contest the point by providing incredible damage from a safe distance. Think of it like this. You have a bunker at home being swarmed by three people. Said person at 1500 range starts firing upon these three foes, one is downed and finished off by the bunker as the other two react. Bunker holds off one while another splits off to engage, but before that second player can reach he is downed and being killed. Two down and the final person is still in range, you can guess the rest. Line of sight would be a good idea if this was not a Conquest oriented PvP scenario.
.so 3vs 1 bunker and a sniping ranger , this situation is Directly focused on planting a Reflect at the same time as one of the 3 break off to deal with the ranger in question.
thust making the cap point safe for a Duration of time and at 2vs1 fight, where the ranger can’t contribrute to the 2vs1 , then he has to deal with a 1vs1 fight.
in a orgainsed team atleast one person should have a reflect now, just for the fact you will be facing these rangers in Solo Que and Tpvp ( it might not be the same for higher ranks) but it is a Option people should consider, rather than just winging it , playing Solo in a group without any cap point support, a reason why Engis are a pain too.
Bubble turreter can deal with this problem in this situation in Spades.