Guild Wars 2

Cogbyrn.7283:

Simon.3794:

oZii.2864:

Simon.3794:

they should just remove rabid and carrion amulet from pvp

rampager and celestial condition build should be the only viable condition build.

Top meta is 1-2 condition builds everything else is direct damage. What you suggest makes top meta 0 condition builds because they wont live long enough to matter.

i dont know how they cant live longer then berserkers.
but ofc, a no condition meta would be a hell better future.

If you truly believe this, then you should not be included in any discussions on the meta or balance in general. I don’t know if you’re being serious, but this doesn’t just go for you, but for anyone who thinks an entire type of play should simply not exist because it frustrates them to have to deal with it.

So you can actually balance condition builds? do it then, it’s not like i’ve waited for so long to have a good condition balance. the only better condition build i would say is engineer, that’s it.

not like most conditions arent already fade out in meta because how useless, brainless they are and only being there to annoy people fgs.

the moment when condition war, condition mes, condition thief actually become the meta, ill probably quit the game for good.

Simon.3794:

So you can actually balance condition builds? do it then, it’s not like i’ve waited for so long to have a good condition balance. the only better condition build i would say is engineer, that’s it.

If we think conditions are fine why would we try to balance them? If we say we think conditions are fine you would probably say we are crazy or something because we don’t share the same opinion as you.

Simon.3794:

oZii.2864:

Simon.3794:

they should just remove rabid and carrion amulet from pvp

rampager and celestial condition build should be the only viable condition build.

Top meta is 1-2 condition builds everything else is direct damage. What you suggest makes top meta 0 condition builds because they wont live long enough to matter.

i dont know how they cant live longer then berserkers.
but ofc, a no condition meta would be a hell better future.

Because they have to survive to do damage. They don’t do enough damage fast enough to trade off for being able to be pinched and die. Berserker gives you enough damage that you can go kill or be killed condition damage doesn’t do that. Why take anything that is going to kill slower then zerker but die just as fast?

oZii.2864:

Simon.3794:

So you can actually balance condition builds? do it then, it’s not like i’ve waited for so long to have a good condition balance. the only better condition build i would say is engineer, that’s it.

If we think conditions are fine why would we try to balance them? If we say we think conditions are fine you would probably say we are crazy or something because we don’t share the same opinion as you.

you are saying that i won’t agree with your “opinion” and kitten about it, while you are the one who disagreed about my opinion 1st? huh?

Simon.3794:

oZii.2864:

Simon.3794:

So you can actually balance condition builds? do it then, it’s not like i’ve waited for so long to have a good condition balance. the only better condition build i would say is engineer, that’s it.

If we think conditions are fine why would we try to balance them? If we say we think conditions are fine you would probably say we are crazy or something because we don’t share the same opinion as you.

you are saying that i won’t agree with your “opinion” and kitten about it, while you are the one who disagreed about my opinion 1st? huh?

I didn’t disagree with your opinion I just said that top meta as in the top tPvP teams run only 1-2 condition builds. That’s the truth not opinion.

Simon.3794:

i dont know how they cant live longer then berserkers.
but ofc, a no condition meta would be a hell better future.

Because they have to survive to do damage. They don’t do enough damage fast enough to trade off for being able to be pinched and die. Berserker gives you enough damage that you can go kill or be killed condition damage doesn’t do that. Why take anything that is going to kill slower then zerker but die just as fast?

oZii.2864:

Simon.3794:

oZii.2864:

Simon.3794:

So you can actually balance condition builds? do it then, it’s not like i’ve waited for so long to have a good condition balance. the only better condition build i would say is engineer, that’s it.

If we think conditions are fine why would we try to balance them? If we say we think conditions are fine you would probably say we are crazy or something because we don’t share the same opinion as you.

you are saying that i won’t agree with your “opinion” and kitten about it, while you are the one who disagreed about my opinion 1st? huh?

I didn’t disagree with your opinion I just said that top meta as in the top tPvP teams run only 1-2 condition builds. That’s the truth not opinion.

you also said condition builds cant live longer, which is not true, but still celestial and rampagers aren’t pure condition builds, which means imho condition damage should exist in 2nd rate damage.

Simon.3794:

oZii.2864:

Simon.3794:

oZii.2864:

Simon.3794:

So you can actually balance condition builds? do it then, it’s not like i’ve waited for so long to have a good condition balance. the only better condition build i would say is engineer, that’s it.

If we think conditions are fine why would we try to balance them? If we say we think conditions are fine you would probably say we are crazy or something because we don’t share the same opinion as you.

you are saying that i won’t agree with your “opinion” and kitten about it, while you are the one who disagreed about my opinion 1st? huh?

I didn’t disagree with your opinion I just said that top meta as in the top tPvP teams run only 1-2 condition builds. That’s the truth not opinion.

did i disagree with you? reread my comments.

Ahh my reply about opinion was directed at your post to Cogbyrn you asked him to balance conditions which implies that you think conditions are imbalanced to begin with.

oZii.2864:

Because they have to survive to do damage. They don’t do enough damage fast enough to trade off for being able to be pinched and die. Berserker gives you enough damage that you can go kill or be killed condition damage doesn’t do that. Why take anything that is going to kill slower then zerker but die just as fast?

conditions can kill a squishy in seconds and kills bunker way effective then power. condition builds have so many ways to stay alive then berserker, you hit the skill and you kit and wait for it to tick. and most of the skills are easy to land, aoe. condition mes, war, thief also has defensive play on their condition skills.

oZii.2864:

Ahh my reply about opinion was directed at your post to Cogbyrn you asked him to balance conditions which implies that you think conditions are imbalanced to begin with.

you think condition builds are balanced? ok then
/thread.

Simon.3794:

oZii.2864:

Because they have to survive to do damage. They don’t do enough damage fast enough to trade off for being able to be pinched and die. Berserker gives you enough damage that you can go kill or be killed condition damage doesn’t do that. Why take anything that is going to kill slower then zerker but die just as fast?

conditions can kill a squishy in seconds and kills bunker way effective then power. condition builds have so many ways to stay alive then berserker, you hit the skill and you kit and wait for it to tick. and most of the skills are easy to land, aoe. condition mes, war, thief also has defensive play on their condition skills.

oZii.2864:

Ahh my reply about opinion was directed at your post to Cogbyrn you asked him to balance conditions which implies that you think conditions are imbalanced to begin with.

you think condition builds are balanced? ok then
/thread.

Exactly that was my point

Nope. Condi builds are good now.

I don’t get how people don’t see the power creep in WvW with condition builds.

It will especially be noticed after April 15th….

blakdoxa.7520:

I don’t get how people don’t see the power creep in WvW with condition builds.

It will especially be noticed after April 15th….

Where is this power creep? Most people run direct damage builds in WvW. There are only a handful of condition builds out there usually very similar. Engineer P/x, Mesmer Condi PU, Thief P/D, S/S Warrior, Necro 30 spite, Apoth Ranger.

If you come across 4 PU mesmers doesn’t mean there is power creep for condi’s lol because I probably seen double that in direct damage warriors, thieves, eles, guardians, running around (not zerging). For every S/S condi warrior I see trolling around I see way more Hammer, Axe, Sword, Bow, Rifle direct damage warriors out there.

Now give me all the direct damage builds you know out there.

Flytrap.8075:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Flytrap.8075:

Anyone who thinks that conditions are in a bad spot has been playing too much PvE.

To be fair, PvE should also be a focus of balance. It is what the majority of players spend their time on, after all.

The problem with basing balance decisions on PvE is that the hardcore Fractal Runners will optimize whatever ANet throws at them and something will always be the best option. The elitism will exist no matter what.

Never mind that the problem with conditions in PVE is not the damage output, but the hard cap in groups. It is just too easy for a group to max out a cap without even trying, thus leaving the condi spec to not contribute.

What could be done was to apply a special effect/condition on larger mobs, much like how Unshakable is a special boon, that will make individual damaging conditions pop/flare with a solid amount of instant damage and then reset that stack.

We have seen that ANet can in theory create this given the effect found on clockworks in the latter half of the LA invasion.

But then i would also like to see Defiant tossed, and replaced with a mob boon that puts control skills on longer cooldowns. This much like a recently unveiled mesmer interrupt trait. This avoids stun locks without harming the whole group with a single wild control effect (they all too often accompany heavy direct damage skills).

Rezzet.3614:

conditions are kinda fine necros and mesmers are just broken

Grawl plz,
You call necro broken? I am glad if I find a condi mesmer. I quite like fighting them.

Look warriors and thief:
- 25 stacks of bleed is not broken.
-Or super condi burst in 2.5 sec is not broken either.

Condi’s don t need a nerf. But don t Grawl about condi necro’s or mesmers.

GG mate , gg.

Condi doesn t need a nerf.

Done

lorndarken.3702:

funny how most of the complaints come from people who dont even realize they have more ways to remove conditions then they do to apply them .

Funny how classes like ele have to revolve every build around condition-removal just to survive. That’s not how a game should be.

I’d propose to tone down conditions in general as well as condition-cleansing. This way there wouldn’t be such a strong need for those heavy condi-cleanse orientated builds but conditions would still be viable.

Gorni.1764:

Funny how classes like ele have to revolve every build around condition-removal just to survive. That’s not how a game should be.

They don’t. Not in my experience. Although they to tend to have traits that work against conditions in support build. Support builds for eles are also very common in my experience. How long have you played an ele? I ask because it appears as if you are commenting on a partial comment by another who plays one, while having no experience yourself, which is a very uninformed way to come to discissions of this nature. I could be wrong though. Correct me if I am.

Gorni.1764:

I’d propose to tone down conditions in general as well as condition-cleansing. This way there wouldn’t be such a strong need for those heavy condi-cleanse orientated builds but conditions would still be viable.

My experience tells me that in WvW, and skilled PvP teams that there are way more direct damage builds then condition ones. If you look at the top 10 PvP teams, 8 of them only have 2 condi built professions and 2 of them have 3. So out of the 50 players on the top 10 ranked teams in PvP, you have 20 condition builds. If conditions are so strong, why are only 40% at most, in the top teams using conditions, while 60% use direct damage??

In WvW condition builds are almost nonexistent in Zergs They are fairly balanced against condition removal in 5 man teams, and only most powerful in roaming 1v1. So when looking at the number of player on a map, if you have an 80 man zerg where conditions are almost valueless, three groups of 5 in which they are fairly balanced against cleanses, and 15 roamers (which is a very healthy over estimate), lets look at how that lays out per player.

80+% of the players are direct damage, because if they are condi builds in a zerg battle, almost all of thier damage are fully negated. 15ish% are reasonably balanced, while another 15% are in favorable situations, or as most uninformed condi haters call it, OP situation.

Why should we balance conditions to the minorty? the example I game is very realistic, and mean about 30% at best? All your suggestion does is make condition builds even less valuable to the other 80%.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Have you played Ele?
Scepter is a Power/burst weapon. The Earth Auto is useless in such builds. You wont be using. You may go in for the Toughness and the Line AoE Blind but then you will jump out. You dont waste time using the Auto attack because Air is MUCH better.

26 days old post

Kyskythyn.6471:

Hello all, I am a long time solo and small group roamer. Currently I am running a s/f condi ele. This build has been pretty successful for roaming, but I’d like to see if the ele community has any suggestions for changes and improvements.

Kyskythyn.6471:

As you said, I mostly use earth auto attack which proc’s the obsidian focus trait.

pierwola.9602:

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Have you played Ele?
Scepter is a Power/burst weapon. The Earth Auto is useless in such builds. You wont be using. You may go in for the Toughness and the Line AoE Blind but then you will jump out. You dont waste time using the Auto attack because Air is MUCH better.

26 days old post

Kyskythyn.6471:

Hello all, I am a long time solo and small group roamer. Currently I am running a s/f condi ele. This build has been pretty successful for roaming, but I’d like to see if the ele community has any suggestions for changes and improvements.

Kyskythyn.6471:

As you said, I mostly use earth auto attack which proc’s the obsidian focus trait.

26 days old….
Do they still use it? It means nothing if they TRIED it. I have and i stopped rather quickly. Then look at the pros and cons….6 Cons Vs 4 pro. Says a lot.

Now rather then showing a post that was last replied to 26 days ago and then totally forgetton, maybe check to see if they are still using it. It means nothing if they if they tried and then gave up. I have tried it and gave up within a few days.

Maybe try and find something a little more recent. Maybe something that confirms they didn’t give it up after a day or 2. Maybe something with a few videos maybe? All in all, this is a rather pointless post. Congrats.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

pierwola.9602:

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Have you played Ele?
Scepter is a Power/burst weapon. The Earth Auto is useless in such builds. You wont be using. You may go in for the Toughness and the Line AoE Blind but then you will jump out. You dont waste time using the Auto attack because Air is MUCH better.

26 days old post

Kyskythyn.6471:

Hello all, I am a long time solo and small group roamer. Currently I am running a s/f condi ele. This build has been pretty successful for roaming, but I’d like to see if the ele community has any suggestions for changes and improvements.

Kyskythyn.6471:

As you said, I mostly use earth auto attack which proc’s the obsidian focus trait.

26 days old….
Do they still use it? It means nothing if they TRIED it. I have and i stopped rather quickly. Then look at the pros and cons….6 Cons Vs 4 pro. Says a lot.

Now rather then showing a post that was last replied to 26 days ago and then totally forgetton, maybe check to see if they are still using it. It means nothing if they if they tried and then gave up. I have tried it and gave up within a few days.

Maybe try and find something a little more recent. Maybe something that confirms they didn’t give it up after a day or 2. Maybe something with a few videos maybe? All in all, this is a rather pointless post. Congrats.

I was on Tarnished Coast with that Ele and watched him Duel many times and it was pretty good. I seen him beat most of the PU mesmers he fought the only class I think remember that gave him trouble was some thieves he ran off hand focus so he did well against necros and engis when I saw him duel. He was in the OS pretty often.

conditions are anet’s golden boy. they refuse to touch them or address the underlying issues with them while being all but too adamant in making physical damage weaker and weaker.

almost every argument that can be made for the abstaining of nerfing conditions is founded in wrong information both on paper and in the field- usually due to the fact anyone protecting them is also abusing them.

seriously, go ahead, try to defend condition builds.

I play ele since release, also played in top100 soloQ. I barely play alts so I guess I’m fairly experienced with my ele at 2000h+ played time.

So let’s see. Every good ele I’ve met in quite some time uses ER. And at least one trait in water and/or evasive arcana to get rid of conditions. Some also trait 30 into water just for condition-removal (this was common even before the duumfire-patch) or they use runes for condi-removal or shortened condi-duration.
Anet even implemented new traits for condition removal like Burning Fire or Diamond Skin. The latter is for sure the strongest indicator (even Anet seems to realise it) that eles extremely suffer from conditions and that they need a build that focuses on getting rid of them.

@Team-Compositions: 40% condition-builds is extremely much when you consider that not all classes have viable condi-specs (and therefore are forced to run a power-build – whereas basically all classes have acces to good power-builds) and that there’s usually at least one bunker(guardian) that doesn’t fokus on damage anyway in each team. Considering the last point it’s already 50% of all DDs that run conditions.

In my eyes condition-builds should be rare and exclusive to certain classes. If that’d be the case people wouldn’t use that much condi-removal/condi-hate and a nekro could still own even if the conditions weren’t as overpowered as they’re atm. That was my idea behind nerfing it in general.
Whatever … this won’t happen so we can stop discussing about it

oh, and @WvW: I don’t see WvW as real PvP. May be my personal opinion but running around in groups of 50+ and spamming AoE has nothing to do with PvP. And of course in a huge zerg people don’t use conditions too much because they don’t stack. In a 50-100 player zerg a handfull of condi-builds are enough to unleash a kittenload of conditions to a large amount of targets.

Defend them in what respect? They are fine, and there is nothing to defend. What you appear to confuse as defending, is probably when poster rage with misinformation or a lack of understandind. Often they prefer to be mad and make irrational demand over the option of understanding and enlightenment. We are simply working to educate those poor guys, and guide them to the path of enlightened understanding.

Speaking of misinformed, would you like me to link you to all of the condition nerf updates? Including the nerf to some poison attacks slated for the next updated. Or do you simply prefer that we let you believe the misinformation you do now ?

Tim.6450:

Rezzet.3614:

there needs some sort of condi damage reduction like Agony but for conditions with a max cap of 30-40% maybe on runes or a gea set so players have to actually trade off some actual stat points and/or rune benefits

It already exists . It’s called rune of melandru.

duration is not the same as damage sure it helps reduce total damage but if the condition damage is as massive as the one i run around with 2500+ you wont survive my 23 stacks of confusion with burning poison bleed and torment and all this is slapped at a mere 4 seconds with less than 20s cooldown melandu wont do much
either as some classes get up to 80% condition duration on some conditionsWith Traits alone then theres 40% more condi from food then 25-40% more from runes

good luck to those who fight me in trying to kill me as running with dire gets me around 26000 hp as well as over 3200 armor

Link us that build in a build editor.

Just sayin, but broken builds exist and need fixed, but in no situation do those build e even begin to represent an entire damage type.

Dark FQ.1038:

Rezzet.3614:

conditions are kinda fine necros and mesmers are just broken

Grawl plz,
You call necro broken? I am glad if I find a condi mesmer. I quite like fighting them.

Look warriors and thief:
- 25 stacks of bleed is not broken.
-Or super condi burst in 2.5 sec is not broken either.

Condi’s don t need a nerf. But don t Grawl about condi necro’s or mesmers.

GG mate , gg.

gg indeed

however its all depending on build in my case i meant power necro as while it ll be able to nuke hp with direct damage necro will still be able to slap a clusterstorm of conditions wich even at small damage are harmful if you slap over 6

its not like i ve defended warrior and thief either i still say its cheap that thiefs have poison on auto attack when they have the fastest auto attack speed
and yeah warriors are way cheap with the ridiculous torment and bleed stack and if they have some power or might that #3 is gonna destroy you when you hit 30% hp

sinject.4607:

conditions are anet’s golden boy. they refuse to touch them or address the underlying issues with them while being all but too adamant in making physical damage weaker and weaker.

almost every argument that can be made for the abstaining of nerfing conditions is founded in wrong information both on paper and in the field- usually due to the fact anyone protecting them is also abusing them.

seriously, go ahead, try to defend condition builds.

Zerkers are anet’s golden boy. they refuse to touch them or address the underlying issues with them while being all but too adamant in making Condition damage weaker and weaker.

almost every argument that can be made for the abstaining of nerfing Zerkers is founded in wrong information both on paper and in the field- usually due to the fact anyone protecting them is also abusing them.

seriously, go ahead, try to defend Zerker builds.

see what I did there? I’m pretty sure that was the Q_Q meta on the forums until Ferocity was announced. And I am pretty sure that the Q_Q meta will change once the 15th rolls around and everyone calms the kitten down and sees how all the changes will affect the game. Until then, your argument doesn’t carry that much weight.

Chrispy.5641:

sinject.4607:

conditions are anet’s golden boy. they refuse to touch them or address the underlying issues with them while being all but too adamant in making physical damage weaker and weaker.

almost every argument that can be made for the abstaining of nerfing conditions is founded in wrong information both on paper and in the field- usually due to the fact anyone protecting them is also abusing them.

seriously, go ahead, try to defend condition builds.

Zerkers are anet’s golden boy. they refuse to touch them or address the underlying issues with them while being all but too adamant in making Condition damage weaker and weaker.

almost every argument that can be made for the abstaining of nerfing Zerkers is founded in wrong information both on paper and in the field- usually due to the fact anyone protecting them is also abusing them.

seriously, go ahead, try to defend Zerker builds.

see what I did there? I’m pretty sure that was the Q_Q meta on the forums until Ferocity was announced. And I am pretty sure that the Q_Q meta will change once the 15th rolls around and everyone calms the kitten down and sees how all the changes will affect the game. Until then, your argument doesn’t carry that much weight.

zerkers are a joke in the current meta and you cant actually compare serker vs condi builds simply because of how conditions work they only have condition damage as modifier so you get ultimate tsurvivability while maximizing your damage simply by using Dire gear

whereas serker has to dump all defensive stats and pretty much die as fast as they kill
serker i all about risk vs reward dire has no risk

Rezzet.3614:

Chrispy.5641:

sinject.4607:

conditions are anet’s golden boy. they refuse to touch them or address the underlying issues with them while being all but too adamant in making physical damage weaker and weaker.

almost every argument that can be made for the abstaining of nerfing conditions is founded in wrong information both on paper and in the field- usually due to the fact anyone protecting them is also abusing them.

seriously, go ahead, try to defend condition builds.

Zerkers are anet’s golden boy. they refuse to touch them or address the underlying issues with them while being all but too adamant in making Condition damage weaker and weaker.

almost every argument that can be made for the abstaining of nerfing Zerkers is founded in wrong information both on paper and in the field- usually due to the fact anyone protecting them is also abusing them.

seriously, go ahead, try to defend Zerker builds.

see what I did there? I’m pretty sure that was the Q_Q meta on the forums until Ferocity was announced. And I am pretty sure that the Q_Q meta will change once the 15th rolls around and everyone calms the kitten down and sees how all the changes will affect the game. Until then, your argument doesn’t carry that much weight.

zerkers are a joke in the current meta and you cant actually compare serker vs condi builds simply because of how conditions work they only have condition damage as modifier so you get ultimate tsurvivability while maximizing your damage simply by using Dire gear

whereas serker has to dump all defensive stats and pretty much die as fast as they kill
serker i all about risk vs reward dire has no risk

I can compare the two just fine, on a stat by stat basis. tripling your power (916+916+916), will infact triple your damage output regardless of any other outside damage modifier, and doing the equivelant of tripling your condition damage (0+916+916) will triple your condition damage output, except for burning, which barely doubles.

The thing that makes Condition builds better is that there is no way to reduce incoming condition damage. You can reduce Physical damage just fine (more toughness, Protection, Weakness, etc.), but you can also increase physical damage (Vulnerability).

You can’t do that with Condition damage, though you can reduce the duration, by up to 65% on some builds, which should be more than enough to shut down any condition build out there, especially dire builds.

The real issue with conditions is that most of them barely have any tells, and that some of them are instacast, ranged and not counted as a projectile (I’m looking at you, necro scepter.)

A good way to give conditions a bit more of a tell, (And thus promoting counterplay) is to add effects to said attacks. An example would be engineer grenades. All the grenades have a distinct effect which in turn allows you to know which condition will hit you and how to counter it. I think this also applies to Explosive Shot on the engi pistol.

Another thing which is a major culprit is the instant cast nature that i mentioned earlier, most condition based attacks have extremely low cast times and almost no tell and the fact that some skills have no travel time. (Necro scepter, Necro Marks) Giving these a slight amount of time to reach their target will allow for proper counterplay instead of mindlessly spamming 11111 and the marks.

xsquared.1926:

Another thing which is a major culprit is the instant cast nature that i mentioned earlier, most condition based attacks have extremely low cast times and almost no tell and the fact that some skills have no travel time. (Necro scepter, Necro Marks) Giving these a slight amount of time to reach their target will allow for proper counterplay instead of mindlessly spamming 11111 and the marks.

Instant cast please give a condition that is instant cast , only found doom and cry of frustration . Besides power attacks have instant cast attacks: lightning strike, smite condition and mind wrack.

Also ever played a death shroud power necromancer? Now that is even more 111111 spamming.

Rezzet.3614:

because of how conditions work they only have condition damage as modifier so you get ultimate survivability while maximizing your damage simply by using Dire gear

It appears you are unfamiliar with how conditions work

Obviously you need the condition damage stat

There are many traits that proc on crits only, causing a valued need for precision

It is a cast iron fact that condition duration is literally 50% of condition damage out put. If you claim otherwise you are plain and simply dead wrong.

If you are not hitting 100% condition duration, it is a mathematical fact that you are not maximizing your condition damage.

xsquared.1926:

The real issue with conditions is that most of them barely have any tells, and that some of them are instacast, ranged and not counted as a projectile (I’m looking at you, necro scepter.)

I love how almost everyone who wants to make a statement against conditions makes such broad and random statements, never offering specifics. It is as if your not even sure of what you are saying yourself. You just regurgitate the same random thought every other poster has made on the subject.

So what skills do not have tells? What makes you think that for every condition damage skill you claim doesn’t have a tell, that someone else will list two direct damage skills without one.

I mean if players used the rational to argue for nerfs to direct damage that some of you argue as reasons for condition damage, do you think you would stand a chance? I bet you do not even know, because you do not know the facts either way, because you just randomly pop in and repeat something you read somewhere, or apparently just make it up all together, as long as it supports your goal.

Tim.6450:

Rym.1469:

My first step would be to bound conditions to non-spammy atacks (such as engi nades, necro AA etc.), at least condition damage ones and reducing cleansing capability across the game a bit in exchange.

can we do the same with power type damage? No power type damage on spammy attacks and auto attacks?

If we move along with this idea, the only solution i can think of is that change the damage scaling of these auto attacks, or any “spammy” ability for that matter, and make their scaling with condi dmg instead of power and remove the condi application from it. The damage can be similar, but that way other condi skills should be rebalanced to not lose serious amount of condi pressure. Of cource condi removals should be take into consideration.

It’s similar to how Shadow priests worked in WoW for example. A few dot and a normal auto attack, which just scaled with spell power.

coglin.1867:

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Ignoring the Burning? The Bleeding? The Poison up time is VERY annoying as well. Scepter/Focus offers – Bleeding(2×4seconds) and Poison(4seconds) on Auto attack every 1.5seconds. Cripple(5seconds) and Bleeding(2 stacks 7 seconds) every 10 seconds. 12stacks of Vul every 18 seconds Though the regen helps them as well and Chill + Boon removal every 20 seconds. This is based ONLY on the skills. No traits. No added stats.

Then add in another weapon set. 6 condition application on a 60second cool down among other skills and you can see why Condition Necro is very strong. Fast easy to apply and spammable conditions. Poison should NOT be on an auto attack chain that takes 1.5seconds to complete and lasts for 4 seconds with no duration food or anything. Then you have The Bleeding, Chill, Torment, Immbolize and Fear from the DeathShroud skills as well.

How does a specific necro build represent condition damage as a whole?

If you have a problem with a specific necro build, make a thread about it. This extreme example principle you have developed, will benefit no one. Why should ele conditions be nerfed because you have a personal problem with a certain, specific combination of necro skills? Why should mesmer conditions be nerfed because you have a personal problem with a certain, specific combination of necro skills? Why should engineer conditions be nerfed because you have a personal problem with a certain, specific combination of necro skills? Why should ranger conditions be nerfed because you have a personal problem with a certain, specific combination of necro skills? Why should warrior conditions be nerfed because you have a personal problem with a certain, specific combination of necro skills? Why should thief conditions be nerfed because you have a personal problem with a certain, specific combination of necro skills?

My point is, you cannot list a very specific build or or skill combination, and present it as if it were an accurate representation of an entire damage type across all the profession. Personally, I agree that debuffs such as poison (debuffing heals), vulnerability (debuffing defense), or weakness (debuffing endurance and damage) should not be on auto attacks. In my personal opinion, those are the 3 that should never be on auto attacks.

Harper.4173:

You’re back.

Again you demand evidence of people.
Again you fail to post any relevant data and just expect people to believe you because you know you’re right.

Why are you even trying?

Post relevant data/ comparisons that you’ve mentioned in almost every thread ( yet I have yet to find even though I’ve been actively searching) or give it a rest. Your credibility is around 0 right about now.

Aww, look, I have a fan. PM me for the autographed glossy you were previously asking me about.

You mean the previous necro videos another posted made just for you in a previous thread don’t exist to you? that is interesting.

What evidence or damage comparison did you post again? Please remind me. What build would you like a comparison of? Personally, of all the professions, my favorite is an engineer bomb build. Would you like me to compare those for you? If your so certain about your claims (and as you guys keep making claims firsts) isn’t the burden of proof a bit on you? What does your personal test state is the maximum damage out put a bomb engineer can do in dire gear? What do your personal test show it doing in Soldiers?

Nope.
Any guy can make any claims he wants – the burden of proof falls on the guy who claims that he’s better informed and that the guy who spoke first is wrong.
You’re the one claiming that I’m wrong – the burden of proof falls on you. I also notice you’ve included ZERO links in your reply to me – further proving my point that you’re just as out of the loop as you claim I am.

I like how you’re trying to spin this around – but it isn’t working – any poster that has followed your posts across multiple topics can see a clear pattern:

You make numerous claims about the damage being this or that – but NEVER post any evidence to support your claims.
You also dispel what others claim using your “real comparisons and informed tests” but never provide access to your data directly.

Doesn’t it seem a bit suspicious to you?

If you really had this data that you claim you do – why not post it and back up your claims? ANY data would be nice. ANY comparison.

They should nerf/remove the +/- Condition Duration food and see how things go from there.

I would double the conditions removed with every skill, shorten the duration of recharge and ADD 100% dmg to all conditions and remove the caps. Learn to remove or die.

DOT is to compensate for toughness/tanks. DPS is to kill, most DPS will sacrifice anything to kill their target before they die, maximizing spikes. It’s also so they forget there are others who ignored dmg due to high armor (tanking the dmg and are less vunerable and cannot be killed easily, BUT there are options to remove the dmg

Warrior axe/warhorn with soldier runes… well you will have to spec a litle in survivability, but no more direct problems trhough conditions (shake it off, FGJ?)
2 removals → boon, and 3 removals throuugh shouts, you could take HS to compensate for 2-3 bleeds or part of burning? or mending :"removal another 3 conditions. zerk stance : 8 SECS no conditions CAN BE APPLIED….

Rezzet.3614:

Solori.6025:

oZii.2864:

mrauls.6519:

Confusion needs to be toned down :|

Again? Nobody complains about confusion in spvp so I doing they do a WvW only change since it is a non factor in spvp

Actually Ozii

This was already nerfed in the PvE/WvW side.
The reason people are all of a sudden noticing it now is because of the runes.
and Perplexity Runes are getting nerfed in 2 weeks as well.
SOOOOOO …If people are still having trouble with confusion after the patch, i dont even know what to tell you

the nerf is so small players will still be able to insta slap 22 confusion stacks

No they wont, unless the star’s aline in your favor, the likelyhood of someone getting 20+ stacks of confusion on an engie with the runes after the nerf IS unlikely, that is fact.
Do you play an engi?
and have you played good thieves or warriors?

The real issue is really not conditions nor power. It is having to stack and run together because that is the only effective way to get good defense.

Conditions would be far less of a problem for most classes, if they could add some distance (e.g. if backlines offered similar protection). Conditions would then be more focused on whittling down melee. Makes sense.

But this game really supports close proximity of EVERYONE melee and caster. That is when conditions, condition removal and stability get wonky.

To fix the game, fix the “Stack on Me” nature of it.

The zerker equivalent of condi would be condi damage/precision/condi duration.
Since no such sets exist, the comparison between condis and direct damage should be done with dire/soldier or apothecary/cleric or rampager/assassin

If those sets deal more damage over the same duration in one of the two build, then one can say direct damage or condi damage is overpowered.
Until someone does the math with equivalent sets (including equivalent runes), I’m gonna say my feeling is that they are pretty balanced.

Some people here try to compare strawberries and lemon, some stating strawberries sre best cause they are sweet and some countering with you can’t make lemonade with strawberries…

Can’t you guys compare strawberries and blueberries for a change? If someone can send me equivalent builds (direct and condi on one class) by MP, I’ll be happy to make the math…
Only rule would be to not put anything in the build that is not aimed at damage (eg.:straight condi removal or vigor, or damage negation abilities such as berserker stance or endure pain) since I will only calculate damage output over a given duration (maybe five minutes)
Some things such as Well of corruption would be hard to calculate, but if builds sent have them, I’ll do my best to calculate it fairly.

Question.
What class are people sticking in Dire?
Besides thief?

A lot of classes would be benefited more from having Rabid and a few pieces of dire vs going full dire, because of the proc’s from sigil’s or traits.

So just simple curiosity..

Edit..actually I’ll just make a new thread about it

One thing that I personally find interesting is that, point for point, many condition-applying attacks actually scale better with power without additional condition duration.

For example, the necro scepter auto attack chain is .35, .35, .5 power coefficients. To get equal return from condition damage, the bleeds (scale at .05 condition damage/tick) would have to tick 7 times each and the poison (scales at .1 condition damage/tick) would have to tick five times per cycle. This requires +40% bleed duration and +25% poison duration (as it is 5 second base duration on bleeds, 4 seconds on poison), just to get equal scaling between condition damage and power on those attacks.

These values are based at 2600 armor (as are all tooltips).

coglin.1867:

…
My experience tells me that in WvW, and skilled PvP teams that there are way more direct damage builds then condition ones. If you look at the top 10 PvP teams, 8 of them only have 2 condi built professions and 2 of them have 3. So out of the 50 players on the top 10 ranked teams in PvP, you have 20 condition builds. If conditions are so strong, why are only 40% at most, in the top teams using conditions, while 60% use direct damage??
…

Gorni.1764:

..

@Team-Compositions: 40% condition-builds is extremely much when you consider that not all classes have viable condi-specs (and therefore are forced to run a power-build – whereas basically all classes have acces to good power-builds) and that there’s usually at least one bunker(guardian) that doesn’t fokus on damage anyway in each team. Considering the last point it’s already 50% of all DDs that run conditions.
..

another think to consider:
some conditions are very strong even not invested in condition dmg like burning and torment. so its not possible to split certain builds into power or condition if they focus on appling that condis

The 40% condition duration food isn’t that strong it helps optimizes but not everyone is running around with 10 sec + bleeds. Usually people are adding 2-3 seconds to a condi.

If the condi is wiped before those extra seconds are added then the good is wasted every time. 100 power 10 crit damage doesn’t get wasted unless you don’t crit and that’s only for the crit damage.

Shadowbane.7109:

If you nerf conditions they become useless. YAAY LETS ALL WEAR ZERKER AND RUN AROUND WITH OUR ZERKER FRIEND IN ZERKERLAND! Get a reality check and learn to counter conditions or don’t roam with things that are not supposed to roam.

In zerkerland, do the zerks grow on zerkies? Also, where can I find the zerk cannon?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=siAbiwPyccg

lorndarken.3702:

and yet the big elephant in the room gets largely ignored , of course im talking about condition removal and stability . and i hear more and more often about how op or bad for the meta is with conditions being so " bad ". funny how most of the complaints come from people who dont even realize they have more ways to remove conditions then they do to apply them .

condition removals are talked about plenty. the fact is that they are largely useless when conditions can be rapidly applied far faster than they could ever be removed; this in conjunction with the fact they have no priority when cleansing makes removal a crap shoot.

again, this has a lot to do with counterability. many balancing issues come from the hard-counter oriented design in this game, meaning that while most professions struggle against something, one or two professions end up handling it too well. the profession(s) found in the latter category don’t have to make much sacrifice (if any) in terms of build strength whereas the rest usually end up having to tailor an unproportionate amount of their build in response to this threat. in this instance, we see warrior acting as the main hard-counter to conditions.

so that being said, conditions are broken:

• condition application is often passive/hard to avoid/poorly broadcasted
• conditions can be reapplied far too quickly
  condition builds only truly require one offensive stat investment, two to maximize damage output. necro for example takes advantage of this by being able to take rabid gear without much loss due to their disgustingly high base hp + additional hp bar.
• condition duration food is far more effective than physical damage food.
• burning does too much damage
• etc.

sinject.4607:

so that being said, conditions are broken:

• condition application is often passive/hard to avoid/poorly broadcasted
• conditions can be reapplied far too quickly
  condition builds only truly require one offensive stat investment, two to maximize damage output. necro for example takes advantage of this by being able to take rabid gear without much loss due to their disgustingly high base hp + additional hp bar.
• condition duration food is far more effective than physical damage food.
• burning does too much damage
• etc.

1) The bulk of condition application is not passive there are a few passive procs but they don’t make up the bulk of the damage. 5 stacks of bleed, poison, will still be close to the total damage of burning and after burning is gone they surpass it obviously.

2) Conditions apply way to fast is like direct damage. You need to use your cleanse smartly not just spam it when you have cripple on you because you don’t like cripple(this happens alot). You don’t heal after you get auto attacked 1 time same thing applies to conditions. Also conditions can be healed through besides cleansed passive healing, regen, and any of your heal skills also help against conditions in addition to your cleanses.

3) Not true I have a 4 second bleed condition food gives me a big huge whopping game breaking OP 1.6 extra seconds Actually it only gives me 1 second bleed because it doesn’t half tick. If the bleed only lasts for 2 seconds is cleansed the food benefited me 0%.

Where as your 100 power + 10 critical damage is always working except your 10 critical damage doesn’t do anything when you don’t crit. The 100 power is instant upgrade in damage and applies instantly your 10 critical damage applies instantly on crit.

4) Thats what you should be cleansing instead of the cripple because you don’t like moving slow.

Every thing you say here defies logic. Pretty much every excuse you listed applies to direct damage.

• condition application is often passive/hard to avoid/poorly broadcasted

Got any reasonable examples? For every condi applying skill you claim is poorly broadcast, I can probably give you two direct damage attacks that are as poorly broadcast……If we take your justification for classifying OPness, the direct damage attacks need to be nerfed, cause they are OP

As far as “passive” application? Really? List one example? I am guessing you are not aware of what passive means. You have to use the exact same action to apply a condition, as you do direct damage. If your still confused, that means you have to press a key, Your character has to take the action said key represents. Your character has to land said action.

sinject.4607:

• conditions can be reapplied far too quickly

condition builds only truly require one offensive stat investment, two to maximize damage output. necro for example takes advantage of this by being able to take rabid gear without much loss due to their disgustingly high base hp + additional hp bar.[/quote]
The cry cry cry, wipe my tears and type “one stat” whah whah whah, argument about condition damage is played out bud. Given the fact that you can literally double a condition attack by investing in Condi duration to 100% just proves how illogical and irrational the one stat claim is. Yet you don’t even mention this stat. Odd, you seem so versed in the mechanics that you can tell us what benefit the damage type, yet you fail to mention the stat that increases it so heavily. What does that say about your knowledge on the subject?

As far as the “reapplication” angle, the logic isn’t there. Of course someone can hit you with a skill that applies a condition again. Expecting otherwise is as irrational as complaining that your enemy in a direct damage build just hit you after you blocked him previously. I mean how dare a player do damage after you negated their previous damage right??? How any sane person rationalizes, that it is okay for one damage type to move forward with applying damage to you, and another one is OP for it is just unbelievable. What does that say about your rational on the matter?

sinject.4607:

• condition duration food is far more effective than physical damage food.

How so? Based on your previous examples, I would venture to guess you do not even know. This is untrue, because of how it functions. Take engineers explosive shot for example. It is a 2s bleed. You need to hit 50% to effect the skill AT ALL. Thus the 40% food literally increases the damage by 0. If a skill adds a 4s bleed, the food you mention only adds 1s of bleed. That is a 25% increase, not 40%.

So if it is more effective, where is your math on that? Where is a skill comparison of some direct damage skills and the percentage foods that benefit them, increase their damage? I am going to assume you do not know. I doubt you even did rough math to figure it up in your own head. Based on your previous straw man arguments, it is already pretty clear you will make uneducated claims. Why don’t you actually test it or figure it up and educate yourself. You will probably enjoy they game more once you understand it.

sinject.4607:

• burning does too much damage

In what context? At 2200 added condi damage it is only around 850. How do you come to the conclusion that this is too much when I can wear full soldiers gear on my thief and hit for thousands? Heck my engineer basic bomb auto attack hits 5 people in an AoE for 1500+ a piece in soldiers, against 3200 defense. That is 7500 damage with the exact same defense as your beloved “dire” gear.

sinject.4607:

• etc.

And here we get to the most intelligent part of your argument.

I would not like WvW to become a full condition meta. It’s already there in small groups.

Using conditions as group modifiers is one thing. Conditions as a main source of damage is completely different. If Conditions are going to become that strong, we need armor to reduce them.

DeWolfe.2174:

I would not like WvW to become a full condition meta. It’s already there in small groups.

Using conditions as group modifiers is one thing. Conditions as a main source of damage is completely different. If Conditions are going to become that strong, we need armor to reduce them.

If armor reduced condition damage, then pure Knights would be The Best Thing in WvW (or any form of PvP). Why? Because nothing would counter high armor. Conditions need to ignore armor and be able to be a primary damage source (for characters, not groups) in order to have a healthy competitive environment.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Conditions need to ignore armor and be able to be a primary damage source (for characters, not groups) in order to have a healthy competitive environment.

For example, a P/D thief can 1111111 and win most encounters already. How is that healthy or skillful? If power builds are getting toned down, then condition builds need to be toned down too.

DeWolfe.2174:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Conditions need to ignore armor and be able to be a primary damage source (for characters, not groups) in order to have a healthy competitive environment.

For example, a P/D thief can 1111111 and win most encounters already. How is that healthy or skillful? If power builds are getting toned down, then condition builds need to be toned down too.

I challenge you to find a P/D thief that spams 1 and wins a fight against a player. Video proof is required.

My guess? You won’t be able to find a single one.