Ferocity and mathematic illiterates

Ferocity and mathematic illiterates

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Posted by: Rikimaru.7890

Rikimaru.7890

Thats right the previous calculations were made by mathematic illiterates.
ANET claimed the damage loss will be about 10% however the actual loss in critical damage is about 33%. All you need to do to see it is calculate it using the add from Traits alone. If we add 30 to the trait that governs critical damage we get 30%. Yet 300 ferocity will only give 20%.
However did ANET lie? The answer is: NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Why? Because critical damage is at 150% from the start and whatever we add to the pool is added to the sum. Full ascended gear gives 71% critical damage so that gives us in total 221% when not including traits and upgrades.
Full ascended gear will give us 745 ferocity so after dividing it by 15 it gives us 49,6% so in total we have 199.6%.
So why did ANET not lie? Well let’s put it into use. I will use a fictional skill that deals 1500 damage and compare previous and current critical strike damage.
1500 × 221/100 = 3315
1500 × 199/100 = 2985
So ANET did not lie when they said the damage loss is about 10% don’t believe me? Well let’s check to be sure:
3315 × 0,9 = 2983,5
Yup it seems correct. And actually it’s slightly less than 10%.
My advice is stop crying and go back to school.

Ok since some people still don’t get it I will go to the extremes – full acended Ranger with runes that give mostly critical damage (runes of the air) and with banner of discipline effect. Critical damage will be 71 + 10(runes) + 30(traits) +15(banner) = 126
So full critical damage is 126 + 150 = 276
And now ferocity 745 +165(runes) +300(traits) +170(banner) = 1380
1380/15 = 92
So full critical damage is 92 + 150 = 242

Ok now let’s compare again using the skill that deals 1500:
1500 × 276/100 = 4140
1500 × 242/100 = 3630

So now we go a bit over 10% difference in damage as: 4140 × 0,9 = 3726.
The actual difference in power is slightly over 12% now: 4140 × 0,88 = 3643,2
If we include food which gives critical damage it could reach 13% in damage loss.

I should also add that runes are going to give slightly more points now after the update – 10 points more i.e. 175 in total if we believe the screenshot here:
https://www.guildwars2.com/en-gb/news/runes-sigils-and-balance-updates/
AND BEFORE YOU EVEN SAY IT REMEMBER I USED RUNES OF THE AIR HERE AND NOT EAGLE

(edited by Rikimaru.7890)

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Posted by: Spoj The Second.7680

Spoj The Second.7680

Im sure i dont need to point out the flaws in your maths. They said overall damage. So you need to calculate dps or effective power. It is about 10% for unbuffed berserkers but for organised groups its much closer to a 25% damage loss. Essentially they are nerfing organised groups that optimize and work together and allowing pugs to get away with pretty much no loss. Pretty big joke if you ask me.

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Posted by: insanemaniac.2456

insanemaniac.2456

Im sure i dont need to point out the flaws in your maths. They said overall damage. So you need to calculate dps or effective power. It is about 10% for unbuffed berserkers but for organised groups its much closer to a 25% damage loss. Essentially they are nerfing organised groups that optimize and work together and allowing pugs to get away with pretty much no loss. Pretty big joke if you ask me.

hi. the best you can do is 100% crit rate. in such a situation, you lose 10% dps as shown above. any lower crit rate means you lose less damage.

kthx

JQ: Rikkity
head here to discuss wvw without fear of infractions

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Posted by: CptAurellian.9537

CptAurellian.9537

You’re wrong and Spoj is right.

kkthxbye

Warning! This post may contain traces of irony, sarcasm and peanuts.

There is no loyalty without betrayal. -Ann Smiley

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Posted by: Rikimaru.7890

Rikimaru.7890

Im sure i dont need to point out the flaws in your maths. They said overall damage. So you need to calculate dps or effective power. It is about 10% for unbuffed berserkers but for organised groups its much closer to a 25% damage loss. Essentially they are nerfing organised groups that optimize and work together and allowing pugs to get away with pretty much no loss. Pretty big joke if you ask me.

If everyone in a team deals 2000 damage then the whole party deals 10000.
However if everyone deals 1800 then the whole party deals 9000.
10% is 10% no matter how much power or party members you add.
Of course the more damage you deal the more damage you lose in the form of that 10%. But the fact is ANET did not lie. Your problem is that you think if you earn 1000$ and get a 5% raise every year then it means every year you get a 50$ raise. Which is not because every year you get 5% of your current pay thus it is a higher raise each year.

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Posted by: Spoj The Second.7680

Spoj The Second.7680

Gear and traits arent the only sources of crit damage.

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Posted by: Rikimaru.7890

Rikimaru.7890

Gear and traits arent the only sources of crit damage.

No kidding? I didn’t know that thanks for telling me – what would I do without you?
I realise that duh but it won’t make a differance even is I calculate it with ruby orbs and traits included the result will be the same. More over I did calculate it with the trait too and it turned out the same. But I did not add it because some have 10% from traits like Warriors while some like Rangers can get 30% as full berserkers. And some people use runes instead of orbs so calculating for every possibility would be a waste of time. And I have no intention of doing that just because you don’t know what “i” in in the i7 processors stands for.

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Posted by: Spoj The Second.7680

Spoj The Second.7680

Ruby orbs lol. You just lost any credibility you may have had.

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Posted by: Vargamonth.2047

Vargamonth.2047

Full berserker ascended/scholar 20/25/0/0/25 Guardian, using Curry Butternut Squash and boosted by Spotter (150 precision) and Banner of Discipline (170 Precision, 15% Critical Damage).

91, 38% crit. chance, 104% crit.damage
Effective Power = K * [ (1-0.9138) * 1 + 0.9138 * (1.5+1.04) ] = 2.407K

With ferocitiy changes we should expect 745 Ferocity from gear. We can also expect:
- Banner of Discipline —> 170 Ferocity
- Food --> 70 Ferocity
- Runes —> 100 Ferocity
For a total of 1085 Ferocity = +72.33% crit.damage

Effective Power = K * [ (1-0.9138) * 1 + 0.9138 * (1.5+0.7233) ] =2.118K

2.118K / 2.407K = 0.88 —> 12% damage reduction

Guardian is a bit ticky because it doesn’t get crit. damage from traitlines, so we should expect a slightly higher decrease for other classes (about a 16.5% for a LH hammer ele whith 30 points in Air and arcane Lightning charged, which is the highest value I’ve figured).

(edited by Vargamonth.2047)

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Posted by: Rikimaru.7890

Rikimaru.7890

Ruby orbs lol. You just lost any credibility you may have had.

Really then you know what the “i” stands for?

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Posted by: Spoj The Second.7680

Spoj The Second.7680

InterMUD?

Not sure how thats relevant though.

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Posted by: blud.8174

blud.8174

InterMUD lol.

Actually Spoj on the contrary, you’re the one that lost any credibility by acting like the difference between scholar runes and Ruby orbs matters in the calculations here.

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Posted by: Spoj The Second.7680

Spoj The Second.7680

Never said it mattered. Noone uses ruby orbs so it makes me think he has no idea what buffs and builds people use. And he still failed to notice what he was missing.

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Posted by: Rikimaru.7890

Rikimaru.7890

Never said it mattered. Noone uses ruby orbs so it makes me think he has no idea what buffs and builds people use. And he still failed to notice what he was missing.

Oh so you think I use Ruby orbs no I personaly don’t however just a week ago I did COE all paths with a person who used them. Thus I think that it is you who has no idea what builds people use. If you are curious then know I use runes of the eagle.

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Posted by: mPascoal.4258

mPascoal.4258

Never said it mattered. Noone uses ruby orbs so it makes me think he has no idea what buffs and builds people use. And he still failed to notice what he was missing.

LOL? No one uses Ruby Orbs? You must be assuming that everyone has gold for Runes of Scholar right when they hit 80. You must be assuming that someone will spend 20gold+ on a rune set for an alt character just to do a bit more damage, an alt, so you will not use it most of the times.

You are a joke, you know you lost your credibility but you prefered to act like a kid and not face that his calculations are actually right. You should feel ashamed!!

The problem will not be in PvE, only those speed runners that have to do better time everytime will cry for this redution, the problem will be WvW, as this is a indirect buff to condi damage, that is already too strong. If it’s not about this all the QQ then there’s something wrong with ppl thinking that this will change the PvE forever…

Phask - Guardian/DH | Phaskk - Warrior | Phaask - Revenant

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Posted by: Spoj The Second.7680

Spoj The Second.7680

I dont know why i bother. :/

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Posted by: Spoj The Second.7680

Spoj The Second.7680

Full berserker ascended/scholar 20/25/0/0/25 Guardian, using Curry Butternut Squash and boosted by Spotter (150 precision) and Banner of Discipline (170 Precision, 15% Critical Damage).

91, 38% crit. chance, 104% crit.damage
Effective Power = K * [ (1-0.9138) * 1 + 0.9138 * (1.5+1.04) ] = 2.407K

With ferocitiy changes we should expect 745 Ferocity from gear. We can also expect:
- Banner of Discipline —> 170 Ferocity
- Food --> 70 Ferocity
- Runes —> 100 Ferocity
For a total of 1085 Ferocity = +72.33% crit.damage

Effective Power = K * [ (1-0.9138) * 1 + 0.9138 * (1.5+0.7233) ] =2.118K

2.118K / 2.407K = 0.88 —> 12% damage reduction

Guardian is a bit ticky because it doesn’t get crit. damage from traitlines, so we should expect a slightly higher decrease for other classes (about a 16.5% for a LH hammer ele whith 30 points in Air and arcane Lightning charged, which is the highest value I’ve figured).

This guy knows what hes talking about. Guardian is the least effected by the change. I may have exaggerated a little bit earlier. But the change hurts optimized groups much more than it hurts pugs. Which is absurd.

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Posted by: UltraHiDef.4809

UltraHiDef.4809

Really then you know what the “i” stands for?

I see the apologist is strong in this one. He’s selflessly sacrificing defence for offence for the whole team, unlike you. Now it’s gonna be harder to carry you in dungeons, so you should be mad about this change.

He’s completely wrong in his calculation. He compared solo guardian before the patch no food, no banners. And guardian post patch with food, banners and everything else.

(edited by UltraHiDef.4809)

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Posted by: MiLkZz.4789

MiLkZz.4789

People cry because the loss in damage will be more severe for builds utilizing full zerker trinkets alone and going tanky in their build. In other words, people who optimized their survive ability and damage. The 2 things that will get hit the most are traits and zerker trinkets and exactly those are the ones most semi tanky builds got their crit from.

So they will feel the damage loss the most and this actually pushes more people to go zerker than tank. This completely goes against Anets original intent to make other builds more viable for dungeons. They actually made sure you really have to go full zerker now in dungeons as condis still suck and semi tank builds don’t deal damage anymore.

Warrior of [VcY], guild from Seafarer’s Rest
First troll to receive 10/10
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Posted by: Rikimaru.7890

Rikimaru.7890

Really then you know what the “i” stands for?

I see the apologist is strong in this one. He’s selflessly sacrificing defence for offence for the whole team, unlike you. Now it’s gonna be harder to carry you in dungeons, so you should be mad about this change.

You think I can’t run a full berserker build? If you say so. But the way I see it it is you who gets carried through dungeons. I bet you can’t even dodge alphas attacks. That is why you QQ about a slight damage loss. Because you can’t beat alpha without getting downed 3 times during the first round.

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Posted by: Julie Yann.5379

Julie Yann.5379

People cry because the loss in damage will be more severe for builds utilizing full zerker trinkets alone and going tanky in their build. In other words, people who optimized their survive ability and damage. The 2 things that will get hit the most are traits and zerker trinkets and exactly those are the ones most semi tanky builds got their crit from.

So they will feel the damage loss the most and this actually pushes more people to go zerker than tank. This completely goes against Anets original intent to make other builds more viable for dungeons. They actually made sure you really have to go full zerker now in dungeons as condis still suck and semi tank builds don’t deal damage anymore.

^^^This

Out of all my power builds, the zerker ones are getting less of a nerf than my hybrid ones.

Be careful what you wish for, Anet might just give it to you “HoT”
“…let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we shall die;.”

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Posted by: DeadlySynz.3471

DeadlySynz.3471

Whether it turns out to be 10%, 12%, 20% or 30%, Rangers will come out on the short end of the stick on this one. Remember, it’s not just them, their pets are also affected by the ferocity stat as well.

Rangers in full zerker down at least 10%, but I’ve seen far better proof in calculations showing a 20% hit for all classes (sorry OP). The pet sitting at whatever stat combos are also taking a hit. So whatever hit the other classes take, the Ranger will take an additional penalty due to their pets. Now will Anet buff the pet to compensate? Wishful thinking..

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Posted by: Heta.8629

Heta.8629

Anet said they could now make gear sets with ferocity as a major stat. Actually a DPS buff. Everyone in this thread loses credibility

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Posted by: Vargamonth.2047

Vargamonth.2047

He’s completely wrong in his calculation. He compared solo guardian before the patch no food, no banners. And guardian post patch with food, banners and everything else.

Everything is applied in both cases

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Posted by: Dub.1273

Dub.1273

Fact: Eles in organized runs will be hit with about a 30% damage reduction.

-go figure.

@Spoj, I don’t know why I bother either. Well, actually I don’t. There will always be people who can’t do simple maths, so there will always come up threads like this.

Dub | [rT]
#LoveArrows2013, never forget.

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Posted by: Rikimaru.7890

Rikimaru.7890

Fact: Eles in organized runs will be hit with about a 30% damage reduction.

-go figure.

@Spoj, I don’t know why I bother either. Well, actually I don’t. There will always be people who can’t do simple maths, so there will always come up threads like this.

Yeah I don’t know why you bother. You say I don’t know math but you don’t make any calculations yourself.
Then again you obviously think that if 3 players deal 10% less damage then together they deal 30% less.
So if you are so smart and know math so well please share your calculations.

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Posted by: Vargamonth.2047

Vargamonth.2047

Fact: Eles in organized runs will be hit with about a 30% damage reduction.

-go figure.

@Spoj, I don’t know why I bother either. Well, actually I don’t. There will always be people who can’t do simple maths, so there will always come up threads like this.

OP math is perfectly fine.

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Posted by: Dub.1273

Dub.1273

Fact: Eles in organized runs will be hit with about a 30% damage reduction.

-go figure.

@Spoj, I don’t know why I bother either. Well, actually I don’t. There will always be people who can’t do simple maths, so there will always come up threads like this.

OP math is perfectly fine.

Exactly, but the assumptions are not.

Ele’s lose out 29.97349% of their damage.

http://www.file-upload.net/download-8743952/spreadsheet.xlsx.html

Edit: As it wasn’t as clear as I thought it would be, I’ll explain the calculations done there. A thing you all have seem to forgotten is that your power actually also matters for the calculations.
Aside of that, I uploaded a new picture with more description of the done entries.

For the new critdamage I took the base of precision (same as for critical damage after the update), added banner bonus, the arcane brilliance trait and substracted 916 as ferocity is not going to have a base. As for the lost 10% modifier goes, it’s because of the change of sigils. You either lose 250 stat points from the stacking sigil or a 10% modifier from a weapon. As the stacking sigil is situational, I simply took the 10% instead.

Attachments:

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(edited by Dub.1273)

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Posted by: Cogbyrn.7283

Cogbyrn.7283

Couple things:

1. People who mock the math of others while providing no explanation of how they are wrong are a disappointment.

Full berserker ascended/scholar 20/25/0/0/25 Guardian, using Curry Butternut Squash and boosted by Spotter (150 precision) and Banner of Discipline (170 Precision, 15% Critical Damage).

91, 38% crit. chance, 104% crit.damage
Effective Power = K * [ (1-0.9138) * 1 + 0.9138 * (1.5+1.04) ] = 2.407K

With ferocitiy changes we should expect 745 Ferocity from gear. We can also expect:
- Banner of Discipline —> 170 Ferocity
- Food --> 70 Ferocity
- Runes —> 100 Ferocity
For a total of 1085 Ferocity = +72.33% crit.damage

Effective Power = K * [ (1-0.9138) * 1 + 0.9138 * (1.5+0.7233) ] =2.118K

2.118K / 2.407K = 0.88 —> 12% damage reduction

Guardian is a bit ticky because it doesn’t get crit. damage from traitlines, so we should expect a slightly higher decrease for other classes (about a 16.5% for a LH hammer ele whith 30 points in Air and arcane Lightning charged, which is the highest value I’ve figured).

This guy knows what hes talking about. Guardian is the least effected by the change. I may have exaggerated a little bit earlier. But the change hurts optimized groups much more than it hurts pugs. Which is absurd.

Spoj, the person you quote and say knows what he’s talking about supports the OP’s math. OP mentions a 12-13% DPS loss. Guy above mentions 12% damage loss at nearly 100% crit chance. If you can somehow squeeze more crit damage out of it, you might approach 14-15% damage loss overall. How does a coordinated group make it so you’d lose 25% damage?

@Dub: Explain that unreadable spreadsheet, and if you can’t, don’t post a monochrome spreadsheet as proof of anything when it’s really easy to type simple math.

Alduin Nightsong, 80 Human Necro
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”

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Posted by: insanemaniac.2456

insanemaniac.2456

Fact: Eles in organized runs will be hit with about a 30% damage reduction.

-go figure.

@Spoj, I don’t know why I bother either. Well, actually I don’t. There will always be people who can’t do simple maths, so there will always come up threads like this.

OP math is perfectly fine.

Exactly, but the assumptions are not.

Ele’s lose out 29.97349% of their damage.

this spreadsheet has no explanations of anything and without access to the thing itself its nothing but a scare tactic that can easily be flat out wrong.

dont believe it.

JQ: Rikkity
head here to discuss wvw without fear of infractions

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Posted by: Vargamonth.2047

Vargamonth.2047

I can hardly analyze the math behind those tables, but if you go from 162 to 90 bonus crit.damage:

EP = K * [ (1- critchance) + critchance * (1.5 + critdamagebonus)]

assuming 100% critical chance:

EP = K * (1.5 + critdamagebonus)

so

Prepatch : EP = 3.12K
Postpatch : EP = 2.4K

2.4K / 3.12K = 0.769 —> 23.1% damage loss

I want to add that, according to the calculation I’ve done, a jump from 162 to 90 seems extremely high, as if the second scenario weren’t including some critical damage bonus present in the first one.
Or more probably I’m totally misreading the spreadsheet :P

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Posted by: Cogbyrn.7283

Cogbyrn.7283

I can hardly analyze the math behind those tables, but if you go from 162 to 90 bonus crit.damage:

EP = K * [ (1- critchance) + critchance * (1.5 + critdamagebonus)]

assuming 100% critical chance:

EP = K * (1.5 + critdamagebonus)

so

Prepatch : EP = 3.12K
Postpatch : EP = 2.4K

2.4K / 3.12K = 0.769 —> 23.1% damage loss

I want to add that, according to the calculation I’ve done, a jump from 162 to 90 seems extremely high, as if the second scenario weren’t including some critical damage bonus present in the first one.
Or more probably I’m totally misreading the spreadsheet :P

Thanks for the attempt. According to your interpretation, a 72% loss in critical damage results in a 23.1% damage loss.

Are Elementalists losing 72% of their critical damage? If they are, this doesn’t even seem to add up to 30% damage loss. It looks like Scenario 2 loses some Damage Multipliers. Is there a trait change that loses 10% damage? Also, it looks like two sources of critical damage are completely missing. Is this Rune changes?

Does this include any new Sigil/Rune combinations in its analysis? If not, is it calculating damage loss by just eliminating the impact of runes/sigils that are changing because you don’t know how they are going to make an impact?

EDIT – I legitimately want a nay-sayer to provide more detailed information, so please, someone elaborate when they can.

Alduin Nightsong, 80 Human Necro
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”

(edited by Cogbyrn.7283)

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Posted by: Wethospu.6437

Wethospu.6437

I can hardly analyze the math behind those tables, but if you go from 162 to 90 bonus crit.damage:

EP = K * [ (1- critchance) + critchance * (1.5 + critdamagebonus)]

assuming 100% critical chance:

EP = K * (1.5 + critdamagebonus)

so

Prepatch : EP = 3.12K
Postpatch : EP = 2.4K

2.4K / 3.12K = 0.769 —> 23.1% damage loss

I want to add that, according to the calculation I’ve done, a jump from 162 to 90 seems extremely high, as if the second scenario weren’t including some critical damage bonus present in the first one.
Or more probably I’m totally misreading the spreadsheet :P

Was going to post something but then I realized it was exactly same as above. Excluding that “misreading” part.

Anyways for example on my Warrior I can get like 134 Critical Damage (no idea how some traits behave so excluded). I have 1661 Precision from gear. I assume that will equal 1661-916=745 Ferocity. Traits should give 300 Ferocity. Banner should give 170 Ferocity. Scholar runes should give 100 Ferocity. Food should give 70 Ferocity. All in all, 1385 which is 92 Critical damage.

Which should be 14.8% less damage.

(edited by Wethospu.6437)

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Posted by: Cogbyrn.7283

Cogbyrn.7283

I can hardly analyze the math behind those tables, but if you go from 162 to 90 bonus crit.damage:

EP = K * [ (1- critchance) + critchance * (1.5 + critdamagebonus)]

assuming 100% critical chance:

EP = K * (1.5 + critdamagebonus)

so

Prepatch : EP = 3.12K
Postpatch : EP = 2.4K

2.4K / 3.12K = 0.769 —> 23.1% damage loss

I want to add that, according to the calculation I’ve done, a jump from 162 to 90 seems extremely high, as if the second scenario weren’t including some critical damage bonus present in the first one.
Or more probably I’m totally misreading the spreadsheet :P

Was going to post something but then I realized it was exactly same as above. Excluding that “misreading” part.

Anyways for example on my Warrior I can get like 144 Critical Damage (no idea how some traits behave so excluded). I have 1661 Precision from gear. I assume that will equal 1661-916=745 Ferocity. Traits should give 300 Ferocity. Banner should give 170 Ferocity. Scholar runes should give 75-100 Ferocity. Food should give 70 Ferocity. All in all, 1360-1385 which is 91-92 Critical damage.

Which should be 18% less damage.

There we go, getting closer. Thanks for the contribution. I’m wondering how much more min-max is out there that will get up to 25-30%.

It does sound like crit damage stacking gets pretty out of hand. From a PvE perspective, given optimal conditions (no pun intended) and all condition damage originates from one condi dmg dealer, can condis even hope to come close to the damage from this sort of scaling? It’s starting to sound like this is even more needed than I thought, in my opinion.

Alduin Nightsong, 80 Human Necro
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”

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Posted by: Dub.1273

Dub.1273

With my warrior, in a lupicus solo setting, I’ll lose about 23% damage.
Edit: Well, that screen was taken a bit bad. With banner, food and all other stuff included (70 food, 100 less ferocity than prec by traits, 170 by banner, etc.) I got to 69,7% critdmg after the change.

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(edited by Dub.1273)

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Posted by: Vargamonth.2047

Vargamonth.2047

Anyways for example on my Warrior I can get like 144 Critical Damage (no idea how some traits behave so excluded). I have 1661 Precision from gear. I assume that will equal 1661-916=745 Ferocity. Traits should give 300 Ferocity. Banner should give 170 Ferocity. Scholar runes should give 75-100 Ferocity. Food should give 70 Ferocity. All in all, 1360-1385 which is 91-92 Critical damage.

Which should be 18% less damage.

Scholar should be 100 Ferocity (It’s what the new Eagle ones get according to the information on the main page, and those are currently equal to Scholar).

There’s still something strange in your numbers.
I’m my calculation for Guardian I go from 104 critical damage to 1085 Ferocity (72.33% crit damage bonus).
Assuming 30% critical damage from traits which translate into 300 ferocity, 134% should become 92%.
You go from 144% to 92%, which seems like a 10% critical damage not being translated. I don’t know, axe mastery maybe?

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Posted by: Prysin.8542

Prysin.8542

Did anyone take into consideration that they will also bump the BASE crit damage from 150% to 200%??? that is a 50% increase in base damage. Which means i think their basic formula (which also added in crit CHANCE as a multiplier. Allowing for Crit chance to have a increasing effect on the output damage, to an slightly lower degree to crit damage)…..

Also, it will only force the meta to be reworked. Now you will need 3x damage 1x utility 1 x dedicated healer. As for Dedicated healer, you will have 4 choices;
Direct heal – guard and warrior
Passive heal – Shout + spirit ranger
Hybrid – Ele

Lv 80 Guard, Ranger, Ele, Thief, warr, engi
Currently @ some T1 server in EU

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Posted by: Vargamonth.2047

Vargamonth.2047

With my warrior, in a lupicus solo setting, I’ll lose about 23% damage.
Edit: Well, that screen was taken a bit bad. With banner, food and all other stuff included (70 food, 100 less ferocity than prec by traits, 170 by banner, etc.) I got to 69,7% critdmg after the change.

Are you accounting not being able to stack Bloodlust?

Ferocity and mathematic illiterates

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Posted by: Vargamonth.2047

Vargamonth.2047

Did anyone take into consideration that they will also bump the BASE crit damage from 150% to 200%??? that is a 50% increase in base damage. Which means i think their basic formula (which also added in crit CHANCE as a multiplier. Allowing for Crit chance to have a increasing effect on the output damage, to an slightly lower degree to crit damage)…..

They won’t AFAIK

Also, it will only force the meta to be reworked. Now you will need 3x damage 1x utility 1 x dedicated healer. As for Dedicated healer, you will have 4 choices;
Direct heal – guard and warrior
Passive heal – Shout + spirit ranger
Hybrid – Ele

No, we won’t, adn this is for sure.
Several solo videos should have been enough to demonstrate that for many players surviving in berserkers is not a matter of killing things as fast as possible.

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Posted by: Prysin.8542

Prysin.8542

Did anyone take into consideration that they will also bump the BASE crit damage from 150% to 200%??? that is a 50% increase in base damage. Which means i think their basic formula (which also added in crit CHANCE as a multiplier. Allowing for Crit chance to have a increasing effect on the output damage, to an slightly lower degree to crit damage)…..

They won’t AFAIK

Also, it will only force the meta to be reworked. Now you will need 3x damage 1x utility 1 x dedicated healer. As for Dedicated healer, you will have 4 choices;
Direct heal – guard and warrior
Passive heal – Shout + spirit ranger
Hybrid – Ele

No, we won’t, adn this is for sure.
Several solo videos should have been enough to demonstrate that for many players surviving in berserkers is not a matter of killing things as fast as possible.

sorry, my bad, misread the initial blog post.

And, sure, if things stay as is, you wouldnt need to change the current “zerk or go home” setup. But who knows, their latest LS has been riddled with “anti zerk” measurements all over the place

Lv 80 Guard, Ranger, Ele, Thief, warr, engi
Currently @ some T1 server in EU

Ferocity and mathematic illiterates

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Posted by: Wethospu.6437

Wethospu.6437

Anyways for example on my Warrior I can get like 144 Critical Damage (no idea how some traits behave so excluded). I have 1661 Precision from gear. I assume that will equal 1661-916=745 Ferocity. Traits should give 300 Ferocity. Banner should give 170 Ferocity. Scholar runes should give 75-100 Ferocity. Food should give 70 Ferocity. All in all, 1360-1385 which is 91-92 Critical damage.

Which should be 18% less damage.

Scholar should be 100 Ferocity (It’s what the new Eagle ones get according to the information on the main page, and those are currently equal to Scholar).

There’s still something strange in your numbers.
I’m my calculation for Guardian I go from 104 critical damage to 1085 Ferocity (72.33% crit damage bonus).
Assuming 30% critical damage from traits which translate into 300 ferocity, 134% should become 92%.
You go from 144% to 92%, which seems like a 10% critical damage not being translated. I don’t know, axe mastery maybe?

That’s what I also expected, just wanted to assume worst case scenario. But thanks for clarifying.

Good catch. Was going to include Axe Mastery but then excluded it and forgot to update the number.

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Posted by: Cogbyrn.7283

Cogbyrn.7283

With my warrior, in a lupicus solo setting, I’ll lose about 23% damage.
Edit: Well, that screen was taken a bit bad. With banner, food and all other stuff included (70 food, 100 less ferocity than prec by traits, 170 by banner, etc.) I got to 69,7% critdmg after the change.

Please explain why. Explain:

The sources of all of your crit damage
Pre-Ferocity values
Post-Ferocity values
Your calculations to arrive at your result.

The spreadsheet is supposed to do this it seems, but I don’t really trust it at this point. And when you write it all out, it helps everyone understand and demonstrates that you also understand exactly what you’re talking about.

Alduin Nightsong, 80 Human Necro
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”

Ferocity and mathematic illiterates

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Posted by: Wethospu.6437

Wethospu.6437


There we go, getting closer. Thanks for the contribution. I’m wondering how much more min-max is out there that will get up to 25-30%.

It does sound like crit damage stacking gets pretty out of hand. From a PvE perspective, given optimal conditions (no pun intended) and all condition damage originates from one condi dmg dealer, can condis even hope to come close to the damage from this sort of scaling? It’s starting to sound like this is even more needed than I thought, in my opinion.

My number is actually bit smaller as I made a mistake.

Getting to 25-30% sounds unlikely as there isn’t that many Critical Damage sources. Especially when we have no idea what will happen to Critical Damage traits. For example Axe Mastery (10% Critical Damage with Axe) is already pretty worthless so would be really weird if they nerfed it.

Ferocity and mathematic illiterates

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Posted by: Vargamonth.2047

Vargamonth.2047

The highest reduction I got is about 16%-17% for an ele using Lighting Hammer and Arcane Lightning active (Pure speculation in the conversion). It could go a bit higher, close to 18%, with Ruby Orbs. I don’t know if it’s possible to go beyond that 100% crit chance / 153% crit damage (Runes of Rage are not an option :P).

The loss might be higher if you account other ferocity unrelated changes like stacking sigils and the like but that is applied to every single spec, not just pure DPS ones.

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Posted by: DeceiverX.8361

DeceiverX.8361

For 100% crit chance builds it’s 16-17%.

For gearing, it’s 15%.

See
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/So-why-are-they-nerfing-thief-damage-again/page/2#post3685695
for the extensive math.

Ferocity and mathematic illiterates

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Posted by: Dub.1273

Dub.1273

With my warrior, in a lupicus solo setting, I’ll lose about 23% damage.
Edit: Well, that screen was taken a bit bad. With banner, food and all other stuff included (70 food, 100 less ferocity than prec by traits, 170 by banner, etc.) I got to 69,7% critdmg after the change.

Please explain why. Explain:

The sources of all of your crit damage
Pre-Ferocity values
Post-Ferocity values
Your calculations to arrive at your result.

The spreadsheet is supposed to do this it seems, but I don’t really trust it at this point. And when you write it all out, it helps everyone understand and demonstrates that you also understand exactly what you’re talking about.

As I uploaded the spreadsheet I use, just see yourself?
It’s already pretty late (or early) right now so I’ll just make it short. I was taking the power and the precision value of my warrior, added banner, fury and food and put them in the spreadsheet.
For scenario 1, I just took the current critical damage value of my warrior, added 10% of food, 15% of banner and that was it. I also added 250 power for a stacking weapon, which you’ll lose after the update.
For scenario 2, I did it in two ways, the first one was taking the precision value of gear (excluding infusions), adding 150 ferocity from traits and adding 75 ferocity for scholar runes (eagle runes are different, they have crit damage increased three times whereas scholar only has it twice). That value I manually devided by 15 and put the result (69%, rounded down from 69,7%) into the critical damage field.
Second way was taking my actual precision value, substracting 40 from infusions, another 100 by traits, adding 75 by runes and subtracting 916 base to find out the ferocity value.

As for what the spreadsheet does, it’s really simple. It simply takes Constant values and adds them to all Scenario X values. Then it takes the added values and calculates EP by:

EP = (Power * (Critchance * 1 + Critical damage + 0.5) x Modifiers) * Coefficients.

Leaving unnecessary parts away, it comes down to power, precision and critical damage. The EP is shown in the middle of the picture.

If you want to test all this, in the scenario X critical damage parts, uptime and value are integrated the other way round. I was too lazy to fix this, making the document a *.ods, as I do not have Excel installed on my current (not permanent) OS.
After all, casually optimized builds will be hit with about 20-25% damage reduction by the patch, fully optimized by about 25-30%.

Dub | [rT]
#LoveArrows2013, never forget.