Guild Wars 2

This post refers to WvW/EoTM PVP.

Prismatic Understanding Mesmer,

PD Condi thief

LB Condi tank warrior

Condi/terror Necro

Condi/Kit Engi

These are just a few examples of extremely unbalanced builds, and guess what? They are all condi.

I don’t understand why you keep talking about balancing crit damage when IT IS balanced. Instead of nerfing crit damage and introducing this stat that will affect the market/class balance why not just address some of the over powered skills? Reducing the overall damage of every class by 10% is not going to solve anything.

You people need to play your own game, learn what actually needs changing.
It almost seems like you want every single person to play a condi tank class and have 20 minute long boring and stale degeneration fights.

If this is the case then it would appear that you’re trying to remove player skill from the game, not balance classes. You’re assuming the classes aren’t balanced because of the skill curve this game has; some players just will and always will be absolutely terrible. There is no class balance you can do to make them better, you’re only letting them live a couple minutes longer by reducing damage like this.

Let’s look at condi builds:
1. You don’t need power.
2. You don’t NEED precision. (stfu necro’s and engi’s that trait has a cooldown so long that 5% crit chance will proc it)
3. You’re left to put all the rest of your stats in toughness/vitality/condi duration/boon duration/healing power.

This I find absolutely ridiculous. Builds that only require you to stack one stat to be effective should NOT BE BALANCED with the rest of the builds.

Let’s look at zerker: (the build you apparently die to every day on your condi warriors)
1. You NEED power.
2. You NEED precision.
3. You NEED Crit damage.
4. You only have base vitality.
5. You only have base toughness.
6. One wrong turn/ slow dodgeroll and you are dead in literally 1 hit.

Please Anet, hire back the guys who originally developed the game, because I don’t think I’m the only one who knows this has so much more potential.

Since I didn’t see a mode in there, I’m going to assume sPvP, so…

Attainable critical damage currently in PvP will remain relatively untouched, as we feel that it is currently in a good place.

This change will have no effect on sPvP.

wait wut

i came here expecting ferocity qq and all i get is condi qq ?

so disappoint

Sarrs.4831:

Since I didn’t see a mode in there, I’m going to assume sPvP, so…

Attainable critical damage currently in PvP will remain relatively untouched, as we feel that it is currently in a good place.

This change will have no effect on sPvP.

We all know that, the problem will be in WvW.
Roaming will be a condi fest basicly. And don’t say WvW is just zergs because it isn’t, and if because of this I will only be able to run condi build to be effective kitten this game. Roaming is a thing ANet, stop screwing it

Sarrs.4831:

Since I didn’t see a mode in there, I’m going to assume sPvP, so…

Attainable critical damage currently in PvP will remain relatively untouched, as we feel that it is currently in a good place.

This change will have no effect on sPvP.

Sorry, I’ll edit the post now. I was referring to WvW/EoTM PvP.

insanemaniac.2456:

wait wut

i came here expecting ferocity qq and all i get is condi qq ?

so disappoint

I’m not QQing about condi, I’m QQing about the fact they think a crit damage nerf should have priority over almost everything else that’s broken.

Condition removal much? Unlike straight up damage conditions can be outright negated.

The crit damage nerf is mostly a PvE balance thing.

ofc its QQ about condi becease this zerker nerf is a indirect buff to condi builds.

I lose 25% crit damage (on full trait its -30% crit damage) so yeah that’s HUGE!

Why even care about crit damage If you can do so much more with condi.. and you can even build defensive also.!

Maskah.1486:

Condition removal much? Unlike straight up damage conditions can be outright negated.

Conditions cater to people who enjoy a slower playstyle, you can simply watch your condition bar and try to spread your condi removals efficiently to remove the ones that are worse than the others.

Avoiding damage is harder to do but requires a lot more skill, quicker reflexes, and knowledge of the class(es) you’re fighting.

I beg to differ, starting with DODGE ROLLS/ENERGY SIGILS.

All of these negate damage.

Warrior: Endure pain, 1 on bar, 1 traited. Shield has a 3 second block.

Guardian: 2 second block on heal. Virtue of courage: Applies aegis. Zealots defense, blocks projectiles for .5 sec. Sanctuary, reflects projectiles. Renewed focus, 2 second invulnerable. Shield of absorbtion. 1.5 second projectile absorbtion.

Engi: Magnetic shield, reflects projectiles. Elixer S, 3 second invulnerable. 1 on slot 1 traited. Tool kit, 4 second block on shield.

Thief: Ability to permastealth. Disabling shot: .25 second spammable evade. Flanking strike, .5 second spammable evade. Pistol whip, short evade. Death blossom, .5 second spammable evade.

Ele: Mist form: Slot skill and trait for invuln. Burning retreat, .25 sec evade. Magnetic Aura: reflects projectiles for 6 seconds. Burning speed: .25sec evade. Swirling winds: destroys projectiles. Obsidian flesh: 4 second invulnerable.

Mesmer: Distortion: 4 second evade with full clones+trait. Can use again at 50% health if traited. Blurred frenzy, .5 sec evade. Trait for 1 sec invulnerable on signet use. Illusionary counter: blocks the next attack. Phantasmal warden: blocks projectiles.

If used in the correct rotation at the right times each class can negate most, if not all of the major damage by timing these right.

That’s all I can think of out of memory, I don’t play ranger or necro so I don’t know those but I know for sure ranger has a workable amount of evades.

I wonder how it would go if Condition used Ferocity on it’s damage calculation too…

nicknamenick.2437:

ofc its QQ about condi becease this zerker nerf is a indirect buff to condi builds.

I lose 25% crit damage (on full trait its -30% crit damage) so yeah that’s HUGE!

Why even care about crit damage If you can do so much more with condi.. and you can even build defensive also.!

You’re missing the point. Everyone and their mother agrees that condi is the way to go.
The point I’m trying to make with this thread is that there are things that require more attention than class balancing. I.E the little bugs like mist form sometimes being able to be CC’d through, or Illusionary leap not working on hills, or blink/lightning flash/shadowstep rubberbanding you back to the spot you used it from. And so on…

If anything in any class needs balancing then nerfing crit damage shouldn’t be at the top of the list.

I’m not QQing about condi’s. They are easy to deal with for experienced players. I’m just using it as an example for comparison.

And why even care about crit damage? It’s a lot of fun, it’s more fast paced and it’s how I enjoy playing this game. I’m sure I’m not the only one who agrees.

As a person tired of being auto-crit stabbed to death from stealth, yeah, I’m not sold on the old school glory of the existing crit damage rules .

But at the end of the day, good players will adapt and one-trick ponies will leave.

Tots.3056:

Sarrs.4831:

Since I didn’t see a mode in there, I’m going to assume sPvP, so…

Attainable critical damage currently in PvP will remain relatively untouched, as we feel that it is currently in a good place.

This change will have no effect on sPvP.

Sorry, I’ll edit the post now. I was referring to WvW/EoTM PvP.

insanemaniac.2456:

wait wut

i came here expecting ferocity qq and all i get is condi qq ?

so disappoint

I’m not QQing about condi, I’m QQing about the fact they think a crit damage nerf should have priority over almost everything else that’s broken.

Different things are broken in different game modes. If ANet could find a different way than the telegraphed spike damage and AOE spam to get people to use their beloved dodge mechanic in PVE, maybe we would see more similar builds between game modes. But until then zerker is the way to fly in PVE, and the way to faceplant in PVP…

digiowl.9620:

Tots.3056:

Sarrs.4831:

Since I didn’t see a mode in there, I’m going to assume sPvP, so…

Attainable critical damage currently in PvP will remain relatively untouched, as we feel that it is currently in a good place.

This change will have no effect on sPvP.

Sorry, I’ll edit the post now. I was referring to WvW/EoTM PvP.

insanemaniac.2456:

wait wut

i came here expecting ferocity qq and all i get is condi qq ?

so disappoint

I’m not QQing about condi, I’m QQing about the fact they think a crit damage nerf should have priority over almost everything else that’s broken.

Different things are broken in different game modes. If ANet could find a different way than the telegraphed spike damage and AOE spam to get people to use their beloved dodge mechanic in PVE, maybe we would see more similar builds between game modes. But until then zerker is the way to fly in PVE, and the way to faceplant in PVP…

Well that’s mainly because you can go full defence and still get 1 shot like anyone in full offence. If it is that way only someone that can’t think would go defence. Why make a fight more durable if you will die no matter what? You don’t dodge that key move and you are dead anyway, if so lets make the battler shorter, maybe that way the boss doesn’t do that move so many times.

PvE problem, not kittening stat problem ANet, leave crit as it is

Tots.3056:

nicknamenick.2437:

ofc its QQ about condi becease this zerker nerf is a indirect buff to condi builds.

I lose 25% crit damage (on full trait its -30% crit damage) so yeah that’s HUGE!

Why even care about crit damage If you can do so much more with condi.. and you can even build defensive also.!

You’re missing the point. Everyone and their mother agrees that condi is the way to go.
The point I’m trying to make with this thread is that there are things that require more attention than class balancing. I.E the little bugs like mist form sometimes being able to be CC’d through, or Illusionary leap not working on hills, or blink/lightning flash/shadowstep rubberbanding you back to the spot you used it from. And so on…

If anything in any class needs balancing then nerfing crit damage shouldn’t be at the top of the list.

I’m not QQing about condi’s. They are easy to deal with for experienced players. I’m just using it as an example for comparison.

And why even care about crit damage? It’s a lot of fun, it’s more fast paced and it’s how I enjoy playing this game. I’m sure I’m not the only one who agrees.

You’re absolutely not the only one friend. I’m likewise baffled at changes like iLeap, suddenly rubberbanding teleports etc. still not being fixed (iLeap’s been bugged since beta).

Sadly, the reason they’re hitting crits and encouraging more condition specs is simply because they don’t balance for WvW at all. Unless it has something to do with map objectives or siege weapons, they don’t care.

Maskah.1486:

Condition removal much? Unlike straight up damage conditions can be outright negated.

By some perhaps. But not every profession has the luxury of easy condi clearing.

Anets primary goal is to add build variety so not every one is running generic meta builds. High crit damage was actually making it harder for other classes to play power ( I.e. thief and mesmer bursts on lets say engi or ranger). These changes will ultimately change the meta. You never know what people can cook up and this update is adding good build content.

FrownyClown.8402:

Anets primary goal is to add build variety so not every one is running generic meta builds. High crit damage was actually making it harder for other classes to play power ( I.e. thief and mesmer bursts on lets say engi or ranger). These changes will ultimately change the meta. You never know what people can cook up and this update is adding good build content.

I know what people will cook up – the new meta.

RIP Power based roaming.

Ferocity being about balance is public relations speak. It’s really being done to facilitate the addition of vertical progression via infusions. Making a bigger number (Ferocity) equate to a smaller number (critical damage percentage), they can put a Ferocity increase on an infusion that will mean you need more than one infusion to generate a 1% increase. If it were left as a straight percentage, each infusion would have to have a 1% increase. They could have left the numbers as is and done the math behind the scenes, but that would be counter-intuitive, and also a bad ploy from a psychological perspective. Game companies use big numbers on gear because our brains are more impressed with the big numbers we see than with the small numbers they represent.

Which is why they are changing trait points from 70 to 14? To entice us with big numbers?

Believe it or not, Ferocity is about introducing finer granularity. They can now give out crit damage bonuses in increments as small as 1/15th of a percent where before it was in whole percent increments or nothing.

the point of ferocity is (beside consistency to other stats) the reduction of overall damage. this seems to be needed since speedruns in dungeons are way out of hand and dominated by full zerker equipments. balancing wvw was never the goal here and the meta will shift towards condi even more with the new gm traits.

BUT here comes the funny thing: the average speedrun party consists of mostly full zerker Warriors.
so Anet made the warrior king of everything and got a tanky as kitten damage dealer that hits almost as hard as full zerker thieves in PvE. so by reducing overall power/crit based damage the warrior will be better balanced for PvE – at the cost of rendering all other power/crit based classes uncompetitive.

Anet, have you ever asked yourself why thieves don’t play D/D in PvP?

At least some folks have pointed out the PvE meta won’t change at all and build diversity will be hurt in WvW.
Ferocity change also makes it easier to change (nerf) crit dmg without people noticing.
225 = 15% crit dmg (15 fero is 1%) can now be easily changed to 225 = 9% crit dmg (25 fero is 1%).

People in PvE who use zerker gear will continue to do so and blow through content, that will not change. People in WvW who rely on crit are going to get the royal screw job.

Crit does not need to be touched, encouragement to play different builds does. Just like the “we nerfed Shortbow to make Longbow more appealing” does not work. Giving people a reason to use the Longbow (like making it pierce and unable to sidestep by default instead of using 30 points), makes it more appealing to use.

Perhaps content needs to be made makes it more efficient to either be in full bunker, condition, healing, or hybrid instead. Then give us an armor swapping button to switch in and out with ease.

MarauderShields.6830:

the point of ferocity is (beside consistency to other stats) the reduction of overall damage. this seems to be needed since speedruns in dungeons are way out of hand and dominated by full zerker equipments. balancing wvw was never the goal here and the meta will shift towards condi even more with the new gm traits.

BUT here comes the funny thing: the average speedrun party consists of mostly full zerker Warriors.
so Anet made the warrior king of everything and got a tanky as kitten damage dealer that hits almost as hard as full zerker thieves in PvE. so by reducing overall power/crit based damage the warrior will be better balanced for PvE – at the cost of rendering all other power/crit based classes uncompetitive.

Anet, have you ever asked yourself why thieves don’t play D/D in PvP?

The bolded statement isn’t completely true. Dedicated speedrun groups stack FGS elementalists rather than warriors’ the meta speedrun comp uses only 1 warrior for banners.

“Build diversity in WvW” would have to EXIST before it could be damaged .

They’re not done tweaking the PvE meta. This is a step, not a destination.

Nike.2631:

“Build diversity in WvW” would have to EXIST before it could be damaged .

They’re not done tweaking the PvE meta. This is a step, not a destination.

Its the players that decide the meta, not anet. No matter what they do, beserker will always be #1.

You have an exceedingly limited imagination as to what “no matter what” could actually include…

Predicting and shaping emergent gameplay is absolutely “the job” when it comes to game design. If you can’t fairly consistently and fairly accurately forecast what tools will be used for, you shouldn’t be drawing a paycheck for creating tools. Surprises are inevitable, and sometimes even desirable… but they should also be rare.

Forgive me for being realistic. The only way they could stop berserker from being #1 is by turning gw2 into a traditional trinity game (not going to happen) or buffing condi builds (you would still only take 1/2 condi + 3/4 berserkers). So yes, no matter what they do (realistically speaking) berserker will always be top.

This will totaly kill the thief backstab build / valkyrie / cavalier, and its not a pve build or a berzerker full stats…

all the damage come from the critique on the backstab, now we will do 3k damage to a tank class lol, that mean totaly unkillable

Despo.2579:

This will totaly kill the thief backstab build / valkyrie / cavalier, and its not a pve build or a berzerker full stats…

all the damage come from the critique on the backstab, now we will do 3k damage to a tank class lol, that mean totaly unkillable

I don’t think this will “kill” anything but it’s going to make a lot if already tough fights that much harder. It is also going to make the baseline HP differences between the classes that much more apparent and unfortunately that punishes a lot of the higher skillcap builds available. Not just thinking thief here, a lot of ele’s/guards were dependent on the min/maxing of offensive jewelry and defensive armor to be viable.

I see what they are doing here, they are ever so slowly breaking down the walls between PvP and WvW, and I think that’s a good thing for the game overall. The problem being that the for that to happen the condi heavy PvP meta will leak over into WvW until a greater solution to that can be found. I fully expect that condition damage will eventually be rebalanced to have a chance to crit making the condi bunker types have to choose between survivability and damage.

“One of the main goals for balance in Guild Wars 2 is to support a wide variety of builds that cater to different play styles. The current implementation of critical damage works against this. Put simply, if critical damage-stacked builds are more effective than other approaches, the build diversity decreases. As we work to increase support and teamwork between players throughout the game, we examined how we could change critical damage to retain it as a fun and viable approach to build-making while also allowing other builds to shine.”

Okay, this is my issue with this. How is the ferocity nerf going to increase build diversity? The only way things in this game get done is for stuff to get killed. That means damage. Nerfing damage in any way does not increase the effectiveness of tanking or healing.

The aggro mechanics (http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Aggro) in this game actually targets melee zerker builds…not bunker/healing builds. This means that low damage/high survivability builds sole purpose is to rez other players…as they can’t actually tank anything. There would be less need to rez if stuff died faster. Rezing is more effective if multiple players helped in the rez anyway…versus traiting for survivability with low damage (what if no one needs a rez?).

Healing in this game is extremely ineffective by design. Extremely low healing coefficients so that gearing/traiting for healing power is very inefficient. You can’t heal anyone out of a downed state. As far as I can tell, this is intentional so that players are accountable for their own survival and contribution. It is clear that it is more efficient to kill the enemy quicker than focus on healing. Healing skills restore health at a much lower rate than actually killing the enemy faster ( and thereby avoiding the damage altogether).

This brings me to the question of how the ferocity change actually makes build diversity improve. Ferocity clearly does not improve the damage output of taking tanking/healing gear…as those gear sets do not even have critical damage/ferocity to begin with. There are no accompanying changes to increase the damage output of soldiers/clerics gear. If anything, this means less tolerance for low damage gear. Now that berserker has been nerfed, then there is a need for more damage output to compensate…not less need. How has this increased build diversity? How has this made soldiers and clerics builds needed in pve? The only way I can see those gear sets being needed in pve is to make more scenarios where beserker geared players is one shotted repeatedly…making that set invalid. You would accomplish the same thing as we currently have by doing that…making specific gear sets invalid in pve.

The only scenarios I can see where this change actually makes a difference is if you:
1. Make soldiers/clerics able to survive one shot mechanics
2. Make the core game mechanic of dodging no longer effective

If you do these two things, you just invalidated all your game mechanics, removed the element of player skill, and invalidated the most popular and effective gear set.

I think the whole point of ferocity is just to decrease damage. “We want more people to support in pve, because that’s compeltely needed and pve is more than just doing full dps” and “ferocity is easier to understand than critical damage %”

Well… With teh ferocity changes, they’re going to add a critical damage % again, so not much changed.

They’re nerfing power builds, while really condition tanks is where it’s at right now.

The worst and totally dissapointing thing about Ferocity change is that it nerf all Power builds.
Not full-zerker ones who tend to have more than 100% critical damage now, but even one who runs some average balanced crit damage around 30-70%.

I really had hopes that this update will make Ferocity SCALE like Toughness does.

After reaching certain levels of critical damage it should just reward less and less for heavy investment. This way, it would actually encourage people to switch couple armor pieces to something else, just to not los

I really thought that’s what they meant to do with “full-zerker nerf”.
But hell no! Let’s kitten up every Power build because we can’t use brain cells!

Seriously, should we all play condi at this point ?

Rym.1469:

I really had hopes that this update will make Ferocity SCALE like Toughness does.

After reaching certain levels of critical damage it should just reward less and less for heavy investment. This way, it would actually encourage people to switch couple armor pieces to something else, just to not los

You have no SCALE or CAP with Toughness.

Toughness is counter for Power.
1850 power vs 1850 Toughness will hit same number as 4000 power vs 4000 Toughness.

I’m not opposed to the Ferocity changes. I think they are a bit extreme but not unjustified.

The extent to which you could stack Crit-Damage was a bit broken. Everything over 100% Crit-Damage was not fun. 12.000 Eviscerates 10.000 Arcing Arrow 10.000 Backstabs etc. were not fun to play against.

But for all the extremes in burst, it was all avoidable (to an extent). You could dodge big hits if you paid attention and knew the classes. They also paid for their burst with very low survivability.

Conditions on the other hand do not. They are largely passive, hard/impossible to avoid or dodge and don’t force the player to sacrifice survivability in order to get them. They are already a cancer in this game and they will only get worse.

PU Mesmers, Engineers, Condition Thieves etc. all have a low risk/high reward game-play that evolves around constant pressure from conditions. A Condition Thief that can hit targets reliably with Cloak and Dagger has literally mastered their build. That’s all it takes.

It’s a joke just how far these conditions builds can get carried with so little effort, all while stacked with maximum Toughness and Vitality.

Tots.3056:

You’re missing the point. Everyone and their mother agrees that condi is the way to go.

No one is missing any point. your simply manufacturing ideas for your own agenda, and doing so out of an apparent lack of knowledge. It is a fact that as a whole condition builds do not do more damage then direct damage builds. What tends to occur is that players stack more defensive skills that do not cleanse conditions, then cry when they are beat by conditions. Simply because many started using condition builds because they read on the forums that it was the meta, doesn’t make them superior. I run a power engineer and stack the cleanses I can. I am certain that if the enemy condition roamers in WvW could, they would message me with hate after all of there deaths that leave them confused. The problem has nothing to do with condition but the fact that, in general, the community doesn’t build to counter them.

Tots.3056:

The point I’m trying to make with this thread is that there are things that require more attention than class balancing. I.E the little bugs like mist form sometimes being able to be CC’d through, or Illusionary leap not working on hills, or blink/lightning flash/shadowstep rubberbanding you back to the spot you used it from. And so on…

So, how many bug reports have you personally put in on those instances when they occur??? It is my experience that posters on the forums here are real good at complaining about issues they personally took zero actions to correct.

Tots.3056:

If anything in any class needs balancing then nerfing crit damage shouldn’t be at the top of the list.

Why not???Those who have tested it know that direct damage builds as a whole (even necros) do more damage then condition builds when compared with congruent offensive levels of gear. I am going to guess you didn’t actually know that though, because posters here have a bad habit of simply regurgitating what others have posters over the option of actually testing something themselves and knowing actual facts.

Tots.3056:

I’m not QQing about condi’s. They are easy to deal with for experienced players. I’m just using it as an example for comparison.

Then you either need to re-read your own post or re-write it, because your clearly QQing, and doing so on mis-information. Particularly in your intentionally misleading title.

Tots.3056:

And why even care about crit damage? It’s a lot of fun, it’s more fast paced and it’s how I enjoy playing this game. I’m sure I’m not the only one who agrees.

Because it was literally not functioning properly, as well as being over powered across the board for all professions from a numerical damage capability stand point.