Guild Wars 2

Changing crit damage to ferocity was a dumb change. It makes understanding what you get from the stat confusing. What does 10 ferocity give me? Some amount of crit damage that’s about all I can tell you. What’s the difference between 10 and 20 ferocity, or 10 and 11 ferocity? Just say 1% crit damage like a normal person. I can look at that and say “Whenever I crit this will increase the crit damage done by 1%”. And please can we do this with precision too? I don’t really know what 100 precision gives me. I can look at 10% crit chance and once again easily say “This increases my chances of getting a critical hit by 10%”.

Using terms to describe stats does have it’s place but the way they’re being used is just silly and unnecessary. For instance the term intelligence. Ok that doesn’t tell me much. I know it might give spell power, mana, and mana regen but that’s about it. The thing is a single point into a stat like intelligence affects multiple things. That is when it becomes necessary. Sure we can list out all the tiny little things it gives us, but to be honest sometimes it is much simpler to group together stats. It gives you better control of stats that work together so that they come in properly balanced ratios.

Let’s look at armor sets. This style of using terms to describe sets is already being used in the game. Take “Berserker” for instance. While it is not a stat in itself we can use the term to describe a combination of power, precision, and ferocity. It seems like anet has an idea of how to correctly label their character stats but this recent change to ferocity is just so strange.

AND ALSO town clothes are now tonics…really anet? Why in the eternal alchemy did you do this? You know what I did when I wanted town clothes? I made a hotkey for it.

Step 1: Press Z. DONE! And they could be colored, and I could add or remove pieces, and it automatically removed my weapon for me, and it didn’t take up an inventory slot, and it lasted as long as I wanted it to.

Now they last 15 minutes for no reason at all, they can’t be colored, take up an inventory slot, you get where I’m going with this. It’s dumb, it’s unnecessary, fix it. While you’re at it get rid of the timer for all endless tonics. If they don’t get consumed why are they timed?

Sounds like you’re ready to move on to another game…

The ferocity change was necessary; crit builds were really out of control (they still are). Now crit damage scales with level, just as every other stat in the game. As it stands, at 80, 15 ferocity = 1% crit damage. As for precision, it’s algorithmically determined to avoid escalation. All of this information is readily available on the wiki; if you can come here and complain that you don’t know how something works, you can just as easily go there and educate yourself. Personally, crit damage needs ANOTHER balance pass to be put on the same system as precision. And you’re right: Berserkers aren’t precise. Remove precision from zerk and add toughness and the term sounds right on gear. This whole thing sounds like a zerker munchkin complaint.

The only thing here I can agree with is the town clothes change. But there’s already a thread for that.

Major Squiggles.8257:

Changing crit damage to ferocity was a dumb change. It makes understanding what you get from the stat confusing. What does 10 ferocity give me? Some amount of crit damage that’s about all I can tell you. What’s the difference between 10 and 20 ferocity, or 10 and 11 ferocity? Just say 1% crit damage like a normal person. I can look at that and say “Whenever I crit this will increase the crit damage done by 1%”. And please can we do this with precision too? I don’t really know what 100 precision gives me. I can look at 10% crit chance and once again easily say “This increases my chances of getting a critical hit by 10%”.

At L80, 21 Precision yields +1% Critical Chance, and 15 Ferocity yields +1% Critical Damage. Now, you know.

Developers use larger stats to represent smaller ones because:

• It allows them to escalate stats in smaller increments. +5 Ferocity looks like an increase. In order for the % number to look like an increase, it has to be +1%. That is, unless they use fractions, but there would be complaints about that, too.
• It allows them to manipulate player psychology. Many players are fascinated by bigger numbers. Gaining an upgrade that adds 42 Precision “looks” like a bigger increase than one which states +2 Crit Chance. Those who do the math know better, but not everyone does.

They just thought that putting 1.5% or 2.7% or 3.4% critical chance/damage on items is unpleasing to look at. And the whole % numbers didn’t do their job, there was too much disbalance between berserker items.

I don’t know, I was kind of bummed when they ditched “concentration,” “malice,” etc. It is always possible that the stat will be named in the context of some effect, causing it to mean more than simply its basic mechanic. But even if an attribute refers to only a single mechanic, it’s just more fun for it to have a name, at least in my opinion. At the core of most games, there is nothing but number crunching. Naming dice rolls as attacks, damage, etc. allows the number crunching to simulate a fantasy encounter. Renaming everything according to the mechanics they represent (e.g. boon duration, critical damage, etc.) takes away from immersion.

All I know is that the nerf was about 3 times what they said it would be and that it affected well balanced classes more than berserk (as most anet nerfs do).

Supposedly the base crit is 150% now, which is of course not explained anywhere in the game. I think at some point you have to stop wondering about all the nerf and balance problems in this game if you want to enjoy it, because when you open that topic it’s a Pandora’s box of issues and illogical decisions.

Xillllix.3485:

All I know is that the nerf was about 3 times what they said it would be and that it affected well balanced classes more than berserk (as most anet nerfs do).

Supposedly the base crit is 150% now, which is of course not explained anywhere in the game. I think at some point you have to stop wondering about all the nerf and balance problems in this game if you want to enjoy it, because when you open that topic it’s a Pandora’s box of issues and illogical decisions.

Critical Damage has had a 150% base since the game launched. It was never displayed though. Only the accumulated ‘bonus crit damage’ from gear, traits, and skills was displayed. They added the 150% base crit damage to the UI to make the effects of the stat more transparent. They also removed the ‘attack’ stat because it was useless and confusing for some. The stats on the UI or more straightforward than ever.

Xillllix.3485:

All I know is that the nerf was about 3 times what they said it would be and that it affected well balanced classes more than berserk (as most anet nerfs do).

Supposedly the base crit is 150% now, which is of course not explained anywhere in the game. I think at some point you have to stop wondering about all the nerf and balance problems in this game if you want to enjoy it, because when you open that topic it’s a Pandora’s box of issues and illogical decisions.

What Tman said, plus it was said the Ferocity change would decrease overall damage by about 14%. You are probably just looking at the Critical Damage and see it’s about 30% less now; but again, that’s 30% off 240-250% (with previous 90-100% crit dmg in the panel, because the base crit damage has always been 150%), and not 30% off 90-100%.

Berserker still rules PvE by far, though.

The nerf isn’t “3 times what they said it would be” either. It’s been proven to be within the range of about a 8-14% damage reduction depending on profession.

I would get rid of Precision, personally. On gear, that is.

For one, it’d open up room for another non-damage-centric / non-tank stat. Boon Duration would be my choice, but “class resource” would also work well (Guile, Intelligence, Empathy, etc).

For two, it’d allow inherent-crit-chance of skills and classes to be a balancing factor.
I’d reduce the Precision-stat on the trait line to ~15% total if specced to 6 points. Then you have:

• 5% inherent crit chance.
• 20% from Fury if present (this makes Fury a much more meaningful buff).
• 0%-15% from a trait line.

That’s it. The rest can be used for skill balance. Maybe one skill simply crits 25% more often instead of doing more damage baseline. Maybe an entire class crits 5% more often. Maybe an elite changes crit chance to 100% while engaged.

It makes room for less damage/tank centric build setups, and it makes room for better balancing of classes and skills by adding another knob to turn.

Honestly didn’t expect legitimate critique of the crit and stat system to spring up out of the original post. Well done, forum.

Azure Fang.8605:

The ferocity change was necessary; crit builds were really out of control (they still are). Now crit damage scales with level, just as every other stat in the game. As it stands, at 80, 15 ferocity = 1% crit damage. As for precision, it’s algorithmically determined to avoid escalation. All of this information is readily available on the wiki; if you can come here and complain that you don’t know how something works, you can just as easily go there and educate yourself. Personally, crit damage needs ANOTHER balance pass to be put on the same system as precision. And you’re right: Berserkers aren’t precise. Remove precision from zerk and add toughness and the term sounds right on gear. This whole thing sounds like a zerker munchkin complaint.

The only thing here I can agree with is the town clothes change. But there’s already a thread for that.

I may be wrong but I believe instead of an item saying it gives 15 ferocity he just wants the item to say 1% crit damage.

Major Squiggles.8257:

AND ALSO town clothes are now tonics…really anet? Why in the eternal alchemy did you do this? You know what I did when I wanted town clothes? I made a hotkey for it.

Step 1: Press Z. DONE! And they could be colored, and I could add or remove pieces, and it automatically removed my weapon for me, and it didn’t take up an inventory slot, and it lasted as long as I wanted it to.

Now they last 15 minutes for no reason at all, they can’t be colored, take up an inventory slot, you get where I’m going with this. It’s dumb, it’s unnecessary, fix it. While you’re at it get rid of the timer for all endless tonics. If they don’t get consumed why are they timed?

I’ll confess I don’t agree on the stats thing, or I don’t care. But yes! The clothes thing! Whyyyyyyyy, why did they ruin it? I dumped my clothes now because lol, tonics! xD

Epic fail

I think this is just the beginning, and we might see Boon duration and Condition duration changed to a stat like Ferocity aswell.

Azure Fang.8605:

The ferocity change was *un*necessary; Condi builds were really out of control (they still are). Now crit damage scales with level, just as every other stat in the game except condi damage/duration. As it stands, at 80, 15 ferocity = 1% crit damage. As for precision, it’s algorithmically determined to avoid escalation. All of this information is readily available on the wiki; if you can come here and complain that you don’t know how something works, you can just as easily go there and educate yourself. Personally, condi damage needs A balance pass to be put on the same skill requirement as power. This whole post was a terrible defense of condi builds.

The only thing here I can agree with is the town clothes change. But there’s already a thread for that.

Had to edit that for you to bring it more inline with what’s really happening in the game and what this thread is about.

Lot’s of players prefer less faceroll gameplay of AoE condi spam or just flat out condi spam.

Let’s put skill back in the game mmkay?

T raw.4658:

Let’s put skill back in the game mmkay?

Or let’s not. Because despite what we on the forum say, many players I know ingame already struggle with the combat system.

Think less of yourself. Think about who plays MMOs nowadays. Friends and family. Loved ones. Colleagues. We build our MMO gamerbase out of the RL connections we use to draw others into the game. These people want to play together, but if the game won’t allow them to play at their – often rather low – levels of “gamerness”, then they lose interest.

Now you might be thinking “so what? Then they shouldn’t play!”, but keep in mind that “MMO gamers” is by definition the target playerbase for MMORPGs. These players are the ones who fund ANet. More importantly, they are who the game is built for.

Specs should not all be equally difficult to play.
Yes, I said that. There needs to be room for a high-skilled player to gain a teensy tiny amount of extra reward for putting in their insane APM and crazy levels of reflexes. On the other hand, there needs to be room for someone’s boyfriend or girlfriend to pick up the game out of love for the other person, and be “viable”. Not to feel automatically kitten and frustrated because the game’s systems aren’t built for the type of gamer the game’s design is attracting.

So, before we jump to “Make it more skill-based” so quickly, really, consider what game you’re playing. This isn’t DotA2. This is:

• A RPG. A genre built around improving a character’s power, and becoming a better character. Notice I didn’t say player.
• A MMORPG. A game heavily based on recruiting existent social circles and allowing all kinds of gamers to play together, keeping each other engaged with the specific game.
• A social game. The game isn’t meant to challenge you so much that there is no room left in your brain and no time left for your hands to chat.

Currently, the game is already very action-centric. You barely have time to talk, you have to dodge, block, counteract and stack effects in the right moment. In PvP, the game is hectic as hell, with players dying in 5 seconds or so all too often, and groups stomping players faster than they can realize they’ve been attacked.

I understand it’s frustrating for the players who want a duelling-centric smallest scale PvP gameplay to be “the thing”, but really, wrong genre. It’s a big mistake that ANet ever added this to the game, IMO. It sends the wrong message. Such a game type belongs into something like a Diablo-like or a brawler or a fighting game with RPG elements. Not into a MMORPG in the post-WoW-days.

T raw.4658:

Had to edit that for you to bring it more inline with what’s really happening in the game and what this thread is about.

Lot’s of players prefer less faceroll gameplay of AoE condi spam or just flat out condi spam.

Let’s put skill back in the game mmkay?

Yes, kitten condition spam, more power-spam!

Or did you really think power-damage was this epitome of skill? Because its really not. Its even more spammy then conditions.

I don’t have a problem with Ferocity per se, but I think the stats in general have become something of an incohesive mess and need to be cleaned up. The lines between what’s a ‘primary’ attribute and what’s a ‘secondary’ attribute have become very blurry and also feel very arbitrary and in some cases pointless, as do how some of the stats have flavor names and some have descriptive names (I prefer flavor names).

I’ll just go through these ignorant posts one by one. (Ignorant doesn’t mean stupid but rather a lack of knowledge about a particular thing or subject, so don’t get bent out of shape because there’s not a more perfect word to describe most of the opinions stated on this thread.)

Precision and Ferocity are already converted into EASY to understand percentages in you Hero Panel UI. Gear uses Precision and Ferocity as a base stat for these mechanics for balancing purposes. Otherwise they would have to use fractions in the percentages for Critical Chance and for Critical Damage. The conversion rates to percentages can easily be found at wiki.guildwars2.com for Precision and Ferocity.

“Berserkers aren’t precise.” What does this even mean? Removing Precision from Berserker gear would be detrimental because of the synergy/necessity of Precision and Ferocity working together as a single mechanic. “Remove Precision from ‘zerk’ and add toughness” would give us a stat combination called Cavalier which is already in the game.

I already explained the addition of the base Critical Damage stat in the Hero Panel UI above. The 150% Critical Damage multiplier was always in game but wasn’t very transparent b/c we were only shown our ‘bonus Critical Damage’ achieved from gear/traits/etc. They simplified the mechanic is all. They didn’t damage nerf wasn’t at all “about 3 times more than they said it would be”. They made it VERY clear that they were reducing overall damage output by about 10%. Plenty of math has been to show that this damage reduction turned out to be roughly 8-14% depending on proffesion.

No to getting rid of the Precision stat.. That is a terrible idea and shows your complete lack of understanding of the mechanics and usage of Critical Chance. For starters, the Precision trait line already grants approximately 15% Critical Hit Chance so, no, you wouldn’t be ‘reducing’ anything with this fundamentally flawed assertion. Second, “Boon duration would be my choice”, is another fail, as we already have the choice of using Boon Duration gear. Third, we already have an inherent Critical Chance on our skills and it is 4% and fury is already a VERY meaningful buff to the point that good players/groups cater their abilities to maintain a 50-100% Fury uptime. Forth, “it makes room for less damage/tank centric build setups”. Uhm…WTF does this even mean and what type of any ‘balance’ do you think this is going to achieve? Damage and Tank(survival) are the ONLY setups. Healing is mandatory via self-heals and almost every single skill has some form of Crowd Control or Support built into it. (You also fail to see that Precision effects many other things than just ‘zerkdamageopomgplznerf’. It effects traits which proc on crits such as bleeds, vigor, heals, syphons, and a host of other offensive/defensive effects. It effects Sigils which proc on crits such as Sigil of Strength and a host of others. It also gives a small but much needed boost in damage for hybrid and condition builds that rely on the base Critical Damage w/o Ferocity.)

Boon Duration and Condition Duration will NOT be converted into a separate stat like Ferocity because their is absolutely no balancing issues here or any reason to do so at all. Boon Duration and Condition Duration increase in VERY small increments as the standard durations for these skills are fairly short with the exception of a few cases. In these cases, it has been designed to adjust the skill itself rather than overhauling the entire current system. The only practical application I could see for doing this is if they wanted to add Boon Duration and Condition Duration stats to Celestial gear which I don’t completely oppose at this point.

As for the MMORPGs are made for a lot of different people and so the game should be balanced around bad, dumb, inexperienced, time constrained, and/or ‘social butterfly’ people that should be allowed to have conversations during the heat of battle….I can’t even begin to understand your logic even after disregarding the fact that your definitions/analogies are ALL wrong…I don’t really even feel the need to dissect this rediculous, uninformed post.

/thread

Tman.6349:

I don’t really even feel the need to dissect this rediculous, uninformed post.

/thread

If you don’t have anything to say, you can still go ad hominem? Then again, your entire post does that.

But you know, whatever. If it floats your boat, I guess it’s what keeps you happy while gaming. Still won’t change the simple business fact that you don’t build your MMO around the top 2%, but at least it lets you sleep at night I suppose. :P

Carighan.6758:

Tman.6349:

I don’t really even feel the need to dissect this rediculous, uninformed post.

/thread

If you don’t have anything to say, you can still go ad hominem? Then again, your entire post does that.

But you know, whatever. If it floats your boat, I guess it’s what keeps you happy while gaming. Still won’t change the simple business fact that you don’t build your MMO around the top 2%, but at least it lets you sleep at night I suppose. :P

You can Google the definition of ‘ad hominem’ if you’d like so you can see that that is incorrect as well. It’s a passive-aggressive tactic used by people when they can’t argue, refute, or otherwise counter point(s) being made in a debate so they directly attack the character of the opposition in order to discredit the validity of said opposition by way of flaws in the opponent himself. Not once did I attack anyone personally, nor did I ramble off-topic to confuse the issue. All of my points are concise, valid, realistic, and stick to the mechanics of the issues I’m referring to.

I do find it very ironic that you are so subtly guilty of the very allegation you make against me. LoL…pretty funny huh?

(PS. My post received numerous up votes in the short time since I’ve posted it, so I’m pretty sure my entire debunk of the nonsense in this thread is ‘floating others’ boats’ as well.)

We can go further into your “top 2%” claim with a simple poll of how many people use Precision and/or Ferocity in their builds and would like to see these stats nerfed in such a manner. Rabid gear, Rampager gear, Valkyrie gear, Assassin gear, Cavalier gear, Knight gear, Berserker gear…..

Terrahero.9358:

T raw.4658:

Had to edit that for you to bring it more inline with what’s really happening in the game and what this thread is about.

Lot’s of players prefer less faceroll gameplay of AoE condi spam or just flat out condi spam.

Let’s put skill back in the game mmkay?

Yes, kitten condition spam, more power-spam!

Or did you really think power-damage was this epitome of skill? Because its really not. Its even more spammy then conditions.

Ok what takes more skill

Condi Engi or Power?
Condi Necro or Power?
Condi Thief or Power?
Condi Ranger or Power?
Condi Warrior or Power?

The only classes Condi isn’t always the easiest is Ele and Guard, but we haven’t seen any viable builds hit the public yet tho

T raw.4658:

Terrahero.9358:

T raw.4658:

Had to edit that for you to bring it more inline with what’s really happening in the game and what this thread is about.

Lot’s of players prefer less faceroll gameplay of AoE condi spam or just flat out condi spam.

Let’s put skill back in the game mmkay?

Yes, kitten condition spam, more power-spam!

Or did you really think power-damage was this epitome of skill? Because its really not. Its even more spammy then conditions.

Ok what takes more skill

Condi Engi or Power?
Condi Necro or Power?
Condi Thief or Power?
Condi Ranger or Power?
Condi Warrior or Power?

The only classes Condi isn’t always the easiest is Ele and Guard, but we haven’t seen any viable builds hit the public yet tho

What is your definition of skill in GW2? That is what has to be determined first.

By the looks of it you would say skill is killing people with direct damage instead of conditions and for you that’s all that’s all you need to determine skill.

Really you would need ranking system, skilled opponents, tournaments results. Not “I Feelz” so it is determined by my own experience that this is skill. Need game mode specifics definitely not Doolz. So conquest where most top players play Power. So the game is balanced then right? K

It also looks like you assume people play conditions have never touched a power build on this game.

You cannot quantify “skill”. Not even player skill, because GW2 is about a lot more than reactions, ability usage and APM. A player who is amazing at fighting 1v1 in tPvP near a capture spot might be really bad when put in a position where he has to lead a group of 5 to hunt down other groups in WvW.

Etc, etc.

I 100% agree … Anet needs to remove ferocity and precision.

And then, they need to remove Vitality and Toughness.

Later on, when they launch an expansion, they can eliminate Condition damage and Healing power.

And if we are really lucky, in a year or so … they will eliminate chronic whining from the forums.

Tman.6349:

The nerf isn’t “3 times what they said it would be” either. It’s been proven to be within the range of about a 8-14% damage reduction depending on profession.

That is omitting the celestial gear nerf and divinity rune nerf, as well as the fact that some classes depended on crits more than others.
With full set of those it’s over 40% nerf to critical damage.

Xillllix.3485:

Tman.6349:

The nerf isn’t “3 times what they said it would be” either. It’s been proven to be within the range of about a 8-14% damage reduction depending on profession.

That is omitting the celestial gear nerf and divinity rune nerf, as well as the fact that some classes depended on crits more than others.
With full set of those it’s over 40% nerf to critical damage.

And with a ‘full set of those’ you have what…a 35% critical chance. Umm…yeah…good try. 33% of 40 is about 13, which is well within the numerous calculations that have been shown to average about 8-14% total damage loss, depending on profession. I commend you’re effort as another person out to prove me wrong, but just like the rest, you have failed. I closed this thread long ago.

oZii.2864:

T raw.4658:

Terrahero.9358:

T raw.4658:

Had to edit that for you to bring it more inline with what’s really happening in the game and what this thread is about.

Lot’s of players prefer less faceroll gameplay of AoE condi spam or just flat out condi spam.

Let’s put skill back in the game mmkay?

Yes, kitten condition spam, more power-spam!

Or did you really think power-damage was this epitome of skill? Because its really not. Its even more spammy then conditions.

Ok what takes more skill

Condi Engi or Power?
Condi Necro or Power?
Condi Thief or Power?
Condi Ranger or Power?
Condi Warrior or Power?

The only classes Condi isn’t always the easiest is Ele and Guard, but we haven’t seen any viable builds hit the public yet tho

What is your definition of skill in GW2? That is what has to be determined first.

By the looks of it you would say skill is killing people with direct damage instead of conditions and for you that’s all that’s all you need to determine skill.

Really you would need ranking system, skilled opponents, tournaments results. Not “I Feelz” so it is determined by my own experience that this is skill. Need game mode specifics definitely not Doolz. So conquest where most top players play Power. So the game is balanced then right? K

It also looks like you assume people play conditions have never touched a power build on this game.

Again you go off on a tangent needlessly.

It’s simple

1. Condi is easier to play
2. Condi requires less skill to be successful

T raw.4658:

oZii.2864:

T raw.4658:

Terrahero.9358:

T raw.4658:

Had to edit that for you to bring it more inline with what’s really happening in the game and what this thread is about.

Lot’s of players prefer less faceroll gameplay of AoE condi spam or just flat out condi spam.

Let’s put skill back in the game mmkay?

Yes, kitten condition spam, more power-spam!

Or did you really think power-damage was this epitome of skill? Because its really not. Its even more spammy then conditions.

Ok what takes more skill

Condi Engi or Power?
Condi Necro or Power?
Condi Thief or Power?
Condi Ranger or Power?
Condi Warrior or Power?

The only classes Condi isn’t always the easiest is Ele and Guard, but we haven’t seen any viable builds hit the public yet tho

What is your definition of skill in GW2? That is what has to be determined first.

By the looks of it you would say skill is killing people with direct damage instead of conditions and for you that’s all that’s all you need to determine skill.

Really you would need ranking system, skilled opponents, tournaments results. Not “I Feelz” so it is determined by my own experience that this is skill. Need game mode specifics definitely not Doolz. So conquest where most top players play Power. So the game is balanced then right? K

It also looks like you assume people play conditions have never touched a power build on this game.

Again you go off on a tangent needlessly.

It’s simple

1. Condi is easier to play
2. Condi requires less skill to be successful

I agree, but he’s asking for a bit more of an explanation.

Necro staff. A bunch of 1200 range AoE conditions that, while they do have cast times, hit instantly after casting and have very similar telegraphs even in the case that they aren’t cast directly onto someone, not to mention the unblockable trait.
I don’t think power really has something that easy to use.

There is no explanation needed tbh

T raw.4658:

There is no explanation needed tbh

Well the whole condi meta argument is dead the Tournament of Legends EU and NA showed there is no condi meta. We know there is not one in PvE. So that leaves hotjoins/dueling/WvW roaming definitely not zergs.

If conditions met the criteria you say then all the teams in the ToL EU and NA would have ran condi obviously there is a counter to make it not worth going conditions. Despite the “easy” to play of conditions they aren’t being used in high level competitive play with rewards on the line. So maybe they are “easy” but not effective?

Anyway the condi threads are about to die lets make way for the new era of “nerf bunkers” threads along with “we need to nerf hambow again”.

@ P Fun Daddy Necro staff is just as good in a power build as it is in a condition build. Check the necro forums look at Leeto V’s post should be on the first page with alot of views for an example of power necro with staff. There is trait for an extra 10% damage for staff marks because staff can do good damage as direct. There aren’t alot of weapons in GW2 that are great as a condi weapon but horrendous in a power build. Mesmer Scepter confusion images does more damage then blurred frenzy as an example and the auto attack while slow and telegraphed does comparable damage to sword auto attack except for the last hit with sword.

Anyway the whole condition argument is kind of moot more evidence by the recent TOL tournaments in EU and NA supporting that conditions are indeed fine unless your on some dueling server, in the obsidian sanctum dueling or solo roaming looking for 1vXs against power builds, or hotjoining.

Just for shiggles T raw, I will.

-Main damage stat requiring no additional damage stats with gear setups that include two hard defensive stats.

-Damage that can’t be mitigated by toughness/armor but only through heals/utilities.

-Easy application process that usually lies in either spamming 1 or facerolling the keyboard.

-Stat point acquisition via builds which favors defensive, passive play to maximize damage throughputs.

-Lack of necessary synergy with utility skills to properly deal adequate damage to kill targets opening up even more defensive options.

-Torment’s implementation was poor to the point where many skills designed to clear DoT conditions were not updated to include torment as part of its cleansing options, making this damage to some classes completely non-mitigate-able aside from high health pool builds (i.e. either tank builds designed to survive damage or other condition builds).

-Damage remains being dealt regardless of player positioning/dodging frames as long as they took the initial condition application.

Yea, I think condition builds are easier to play and have a lot less counterplay to them.

oZii.2864:

T raw.4658:

There is no explanation needed tbh

Well the whole condi meta argument is dead the Tournament of Legends EU and NA showed there is no condi meta. We know there is not one in PvE. So that leaves dueling/WvW roaming definitely not zergs.

If conditions met the criteria you say then all the teams in the ToL EU and NA would have ran condi obviously there is a counter to make it not worth going conditions. Despite the “easy” to play of conditions they aren’t being used in high level competitive play with rewards on the line. So maybe they are “easy” but not effective?

Anyway the condi threads are about to die lets make way for the new era of “nerf bunkers” threads along with “we need to nerf hambow again”.

This isn’t a good way of analyzing balance, though.

Balance should be considered at all skill levels and under all circumstances.

The condition meta is more prevalent in WvW because sPvP did not get affected by the ferocity change values, and there was always a pre-existing cap on critical damage which is approximately half of what it is in other game modes.

DeceiverX.8361:

oZii.2864:

T raw.4658:

There is no explanation needed tbh

Well the whole condi meta argument is dead the Tournament of Legends EU and NA showed there is no condi meta. We know there is not one in PvE. So that leaves dueling/WvW roaming definitely not zergs.

If conditions met the criteria you say then all the teams in the ToL EU and NA would have ran condi obviously there is a counter to make it not worth going conditions. Despite the “easy” to play of conditions they aren’t being used in high level competitive play with rewards on the line. So maybe they are “easy” but not effective?

Anyway the condi threads are about to die lets make way for the new era of “nerf bunkers” threads along with “we need to nerf hambow again”.

This isn’t a good way of analyzing balance, though.

Balance should be considered at all skill levels and under all circumstances.

The condition meta is more prevalent in WvW because sPvP did not get affected by the ferocity change values, and there was always a pre-existing cap on critical damage which is approximately half of what it is in other game modes.

I’m sure balance is considered at all levels thats why they nerfed quickness and that was the reason they gave to the nerf of quickness. However, quickness isn’t something deeply built into every class. The condition meta in WvW isn’t prevalent unless your a dueler or roamer and there are still power builds and condtion builds that roam not exclusive to conditions for roaming.

Organized Zergs that are taking objectives in WvW, aren’t stacking condis they are clearing them rapidly, they are running guards and warriors, it’s basically what the TOL showed x10. GvG’s(not supported gametype) is direct damage. Dueling is well dueling(not supported) and the game isn’t balanced around that because if it was then there wouldn’t be a need to have teammates or use teamwork you could self sustain against any threat.

I roam and duel alot but I realize how the game is balanced. Do I get frustrated at certain builds? Sure depends on what I’m playing the PU mesmer frustrates my Elementalist but I eat them for breakfast on my Meditation Guardian. I don’t think my D/D elementalist should be balanced like my Meditation Guardian because they don’t have the same strengths and weaknesses and I’m ok with that and it would be boring if my Ele played like my Guard. Otherwise I would pick 1 class play just that because it can beat everything.

Also if sPvP wasn’t as affected by the ferocity change(it was because you still can’t get 30 critical damage from your ferocity tree) but the condition runes all where buffed like they where in WvW wouldn’t that mean it would be just as prevalent? Condi durations are up in sPvP, condi damage was buffed in sPvP, the amount of procs for condi sigils is up all from the patch while crit damage was nerfed in sPvP slightly.

There is no condi meta at the top of sPvP because teams are organized and there have been nerfs to condi builds like necro traits in previous patches.

When there are organized groups in WvW conditions are also not a problem that is why they aren’t used in GvG’s or organized guild raids in WvW. It’s just solo roaming small man havok players that usually complain about conditions in WvW.

The ONLY reason ToL wasn’t swimming in Condi builds is because of 1 rune

Strength Runes

In fact the NA final was a complete snooze where 2 teams full of bunkers dukes it out.

Heck I’d even argue that the patch was still too fresh to have it included for this tournament. 2 warrior teams…..

T raw.4658:

The ONLY reason ToL wasn’t swimming in Condi builds is because of 1 rune

Strength Runes

In fact the NA final was a complete snooze where 2 teams full of bunkers dukes it out.

Heck I’d even argue that the patch was still too fresh to have it included for this tournament. 2 warrior teams…..

Ofc, it has to be that rune. Can’t be that condi builds are actually pretty meh in serious play or anything. :P

PUMesmer:

T raw.4658:

The ONLY reason ToL wasn’t swimming in Condi builds is because of 1 rune

Strength Runes

In fact the NA final was a complete snooze where 2 teams full of bunkers dukes it out.

Heck I’d even argue that the patch was still too fresh to have it included for this tournament. 2 warrior teams…..

snip

We’ll just leave it at this since everyone pretty knows what happened. If you want to come back and edit your post or post something that has relevance feel free to rejoin the discussion.

thanks

Carighan.6758:

T raw.4658:

The ONLY reason ToL wasn’t swimming in Condi builds is because of 1 rune

Strength Runes

In fact the NA final was a complete snooze where 2 teams full of bunkers dukes it out.

Heck I’d even argue that the patch was still too fresh to have it included for this tournament. 2 warrior teams…..

Ofc, it has to be that rune. Can’t be that condi builds are actually pretty meh in serious play or anything. :P

Especially since Might helps condition damage too. Nothing stopping a condi build from slapping those runes on. 875 power and condition damage at level 80 is nothing to sneeze at for anyone if you have enough generation to self stack 25 reliably.

T raw.4658:

The ONLY reason ToL wasn’t swimming in Condi builds is because of 1 rune

Strength Runes

In fact the NA final was a complete snooze where 2 teams full of bunkers dukes it out.

Heck I’d even argue that the patch was still too fresh to have it included for this tournament. 2 warrior teams…..

You do know your basically saying that condition builds can’t keep up with the dps of a power build with Strength Runes?

Also…

Rune of the Aristocracy is a condition rune that gives the same might duration as runes of Strength.

oZii.2864:

T raw.4658:

There is no explanation needed tbh

Well the whole condi meta argument is dead the Tournament of Legends EU and NA showed there is no condi meta. We know there is not one in PvE. So that leaves hotjoins/dueling/WvW roaming definitely not zergs.

If conditions met the criteria you say then all the teams in the ToL EU and NA would have ran condi obviously there is a counter to make it not worth going conditions. Despite the “easy” to play of conditions they aren’t being used in high level competitive play with rewards on the line. So maybe they are “easy” but not effective?

Anyway the condi threads are about to die lets make way for the new era of “nerf bunkers” threads along with “we need to nerf hambow again”.

@ P Fun Daddy Necro staff is just as good in a power build as it is in a condition build. Check the necro forums look at Leeto V’s post should be on the first page with alot of views for an example of power necro with staff. There is trait for an extra 10% damage for staff marks because staff can do good damage as direct. There aren’t alot of weapons in GW2 that are great as a condi weapon but horrendous in a power build. Mesmer Scepter confusion images does more damage then blurred frenzy as an example and the auto attack while slow and telegraphed does comparable damage to sword auto attack except for the last hit with sword.

Anyway the whole condition argument is kind of moot more evidence by the recent TOL tournaments in EU and NA supporting that conditions are indeed fine unless your on some dueling server, in the obsidian sanctum dueling or solo roaming looking for 1vXs against power builds, or hotjoining.

Yeah, I just really dislike the weapon in general. If it’s usable in power builds that just makes it worse for me, I wasn’t aware that it could be.
I don’t think that having instant-hitting AoEs is good (not instant cast, that would be even worse, but no projectile or the like). I feel like I would vastly prefer a system where they worked like static field, or had a mechanic that discouraged casting them directly on to people (like lower base direct and condition damage/duration that increased the longer the mark was up before it was activated, probably frontloaded so that hitting it within a few seconds would be somewhere a bit above the current power but so that it wouldn’t scale to infinite damage after twenty seconds).

It’s hard to tell if this is a troll thread or if we’re honestly trying to move the thread into a real discussion on stat balance?

In the hopes the trolling posts are done, what are people’s opinion on removing just Ferocity from the game? Without Ferocity, both power and condition builds would have the same general stat distribution because they’d both want precision. It would also have the real advantage of leveling out the power builds that were abusing the critical damage stat in the first place by ensuring all power builds are more or less ‘created equal’.

But this would ruin the identity of X class? A valid concern, but what if we approached it as follows:

Every class has a base crit damage of 50% just like today.

Every class could increase their crit damage by an additional 20% via stats in the ferocity line just like today.

Select classes (Thieves for example) would then have a new trait to increase their crit damage by a further 20%.

This would then clearly define certain classes as burst dealers (Thieves) where others are more known for sustained damage (Rangers, Warriors, etc.).

Would the game be healthier overall if we didn’t have to deal with players stacking 200% crit damage and glass power builds were no longer a real thing?

Just curious…

If you think about it, crit damage is not the problem, crit CHANCE is. Take WoW for example: An average crit chance is is like 6-10% or something, but the basic damage is higher. They should nerf the amount of crit chance it’s possible to get (increase required precision per 1% crit chance), and buff the damage coefficients of attacks. That way, it will no longer to be possible to get 70-100% crit chance and have nearly all of your attacks be critical hits. Then they can make the on-crit sigils be 100% and remove all internal cooldowns since crits won’t be happening every two or less seconds.

No, if you remove cooldowns from on-crit sigils you’ll introduce an imbalance favoring skills and weapons with multiple hits or high hit rates.

There’s really no problem with higher crit chance and a lower on-crit bonus damage compared to lower crit chance and higher on-crit bonus. The latter does increase the RNG factor and it would give a huge boost to 100% crit buffs.