Guild Wars 2

I was just wondering, when will ANET realize how OP is Guardian’s healing (in PvP including WvW)and when can we expect it to be nerfed? Such nerfs where done on other classes in past so I wanna know when can I see this one.

Nothing personal if you are guard, I am just realistic.

Tried using poison?

What about the professions that have no access to poison?

Sigil if doom and not every prof/build will be good at everything.

lol.

Bunker OP? try again.

Chrispy.5641:

What about the professions that have no access to poison?

This isn’t a single-player game. You’re not supposed to fight 1v1, the very underlying game mechanics are trying to push you to at least fight 2v2.

Also, Guardian healing just plain isn’t thaaaaat strong. Their support is, but again, that’s something for groups and… well… you know… kinda their classes’ theme, no? It’s like a Mesmer having illusions or an Engineer having a ton of variety with their kits and tool belt.

Lol… nice troll
If guardians wont ever get a boost because devs say they are “fine” then the last thing they need is a nerf…

If a guard can’t heal then what is it supposed to do in teamfights? Instant death of class if you nerf the one thing it can actually do well.

If a guard wants to a lot of healing, and takes say the trait that gives the virtue regen to allies, then yes the healing is large, but over a sustained period. Even if you take the trait that reduced 2 handed weapons cooldown by 20%, you are still looking at largely sustained heal. Healing breeze brings something else entirely to the table, yet few guardians run this at the moment, as it severely hampers the classes ability to bunker 1v1 or 1v2 as well. That block on shelter is important.

I guess if a guard camps staff he can get out some pretty nice healing if he also takes the virtue trait.

Virtue regen – 200hp/s = 12K HP per minute
Staff 2 (roughly 4 can be cast in a minute to explode and heal) = 1.5k x 4 = 6K HP per minute
Staff 4 (roughly 3 times in a minute) = 3K x 3 = 9K HP per minute

Plus about 2×10 s of Regen every minute (can be more) = 4K ish HP per min

So a guard can offer about 12+6+9+4=31K HP heal per minute to the team.

But we also missed dodge rolls, which are 700HPxrolls per min, and the availability of which are very boon dependent. You get your initial 2 at the start of the fight then 2 every 20 seconds as a base, but that is doubled if you have vigor, and of course everybody takes energy sigils. I think it’s fairly safe to add about 8 dodge rolls here as a minimum, so about 6K ontop of the 31K.
I just wanted to look at the numbers myself, sorry for blathering.

vincecontix.1264:

Sigil if doom and not every prof/build will be good at everything.

….

Carighan.6758:

Chrispy.5641:

What about the professions that have no access to poison?

This isn’t a single-player game. You’re not supposed to fight 1v1, the very underlying game mechanics are trying to push you to at least fight 2v2.

Also, Guardian healing just plain isn’t thaaaaat strong. Their support is, but again, that’s something for groups and… well… you know… kinda their classes’ theme, no? It’s like a Mesmer having illusions or an Engineer having a ton of variety with their kits and tool belt.

I agree with both of you, though that wasn’t the point of my last post. The point was that someone thought they were clever by saying to just use poison to counter guards when there’s 4 professions that don’t have enough access to poison to make any difference. Even if Guardian healing was an issue at all (and its not), it would be massively more complicated then “just use poison”. I think my comment went entirely over your heads.

XxSmokedatganjaxX.2948:

Lol… nice troll
If guardians wont ever get a boost because devs say they are “fine” then the last thing they need is a nerf…

Cause the devs are always right?

When looking at WvW we see a meta of Hammertrain. Which is a ton of Guardians with a ton of Warriors. But even before Hammertrain every zerg was pretty much a ton of Guardians.

When we look at sPvP, and we look at higher brackets, so how the dedicated, serious and more skilled teams play. We see a Guardian in pretty much every team, sometimes even two.
In the previous ToL the average number of Guardians per team was more than 1. You’d sooner see two guardians on a team, than none.

Guardians are mandatory in pvp, in a gamemode with 5 slots for 8 professions, 1 slot is always reserved for a Guardian.
And they are overwhelmingly present in WvW and even PvE.

It is obvious that Guardians do something thats crucially important, and nobody else can even come close to competing them for this role. And that should change. How this is changed i leave up for debate, either nerf Guardians or buff other builds that are suppose to compete.
If arenanet feels Guardians are fine, then that means buffing competing builds on other professions that do the same thing.

guardian healing? cute.
i play a warrior shout bunker in pvp,
we enjoy 409 hp every second, plus 167 hps from adrenal healing when you don’t need the condi removal of cleansing ire. (which honestly isn’t very often with a shout warrior, due to shouts removing conditions.)

thats 576 hps without needing to click or activate anything.
thats 34k passive regen a minute without even mentioning the shouts…

now the shouts,
upon using all of my shouts i heal all allies within 600 of me for 9,316 and remove 6 conditions.

used back to back my shouts grant 446.35 HPS (26,781 health a minute)
and remove 17 conditions per minute.
yes…17 condi removals and 27k health to all allies within 600, every minute.

so my personal healing is 1022.35 HPS (61,341 health per minute.)
it takes a bizarre amount of poison spam to take me down,
i even run both generosity and purity runes, since poison is the only danger.
without poison just save your time and go elsewhere

edit: i also should have mentioned that i use Settler’s Amulet giving me 3,5k toughness,
and plenty of condi damage, i primarily use s/s for both the block and damage,
i usually deal around 2k-2.5k dps, which eats through most people fairly quickly.

ok ill bite…

1.) Guardian has incredibly low health pool. One of the lowest in the game. Armor isn’t enough to mitigate damage when health is that low, especially condition spam, so we need blocks and healing for sustain. Its really a main theme of the guardian.

2. The builds that heal all have stipulations:

Altruistic healing builds, which require 6 into valor, need to have allies around to heal the guardian, and is really only effective with a full team of allies. On its own an altruistic healing guardian gets wrecked in 1v1.

triple meditation builds with monks focus typically are full on zerker builds, and are very burst reliant. these builds are great in havoc teams and 1v1, but they have incredibly low health pools on average, like12-14k, and thus rely on blinds and healing to stand a chance. This build is also extremely hard to play.

lastly, healway builds, (6 into virtues, which doesn’t offer trait boosts, but virtue recharge and boon duration) which are full on support builds, offer excellent passive and active self healing, both to guardian and team, but are as bunker as they get. Don’t expect to take down a bunker healway guardian without another to help. but because they are mostly cleric gear, they do not hit hard in the least.

now if you want to talk about warrior healing, that’s an entirely different conversation.

these are the main guardians you will run into, which some variations im sure, but all of the healing comes with a cost.

who would of thought that the healing/support class could heal a lot, i mean i never thought of it before.

Serbianwolf.1652:

I was just wondering, when will ANET realize how OP is Guardian’s healing (in PvP including WvW)and when can we expect it to be nerfed? Such nerfs where done on other classes in past so I wanna know when can I see this one.

Nothing personal if you are guard, I am just realistic.

I agree. I mean really people why should guardian have 3 whole builds to play… Nerf heals and support so every guard can be meditations. That way we don’t have to have choose. (sarcasm and idiotic use of the word choose intended. U c wut eye did thar)

Liewec.2896:

guardian healing? cute.
i play a warrior shout bunker in pvp,
we enjoy 409 hp every second, plus 167 hps from adrenal healing when you don’t need the condi removal of cleansing ire. (which honestly isn’t very often with a shout warrior, due to shouts removing conditions.)

thats 576 hps without needing to click or activate anything.
thats 34k passive regen a minute without even mentioning the shouts…

now the shouts,
upon using all of my shouts i heal all allies within 600 of me for 9,316 and remove 6 conditions.

used back to back my shouts grant 446.35 HPS (26,781 health a minute)
and remove 17 conditions per minute.
yes…17 condi removals and 27k health to all allies within 600, every minute.

so my personal healing is 1022.35 HPS (61,341 health per minute.)
it takes a bizarre amount of poison spam to take me down,
i even run both generosity and purity runes, since poison is the only danger.
without poison just save your time and go elsewhere

edit: i also should have mentioned that i use Settler’s Amulet giving me 3,5k toughness,
and plenty of condi damage, i primarily use s/s for both the block and damage,
i usually deal around 2k-2.5k dps, which eats through most people fairly quickly.

Wow. You can out-heal and out-support a Guardian while still having the highest health pool and can still wreck face?

I so chose the wrong profession to play at release. It must be nice to actually be able to support and still be a threat to someone. I always have to make a choice as to whether I want a chance to kill someone or want to support, heal, and bunker.

I guess the people who state that the developers must not play this game have a bit more insight than I gave them credit for in the past.

Do you think ArenaNet will ever offer a profession change option in the Gem Store?

Thanks.

Guardians are a bit strong as a bunker in PvP. Being mandatory is a problem in itself. But why are they strong is the real question. Having a specialized supporter is fine, but perhaps they should boost the counter go guardians which should be boon strip comboed with heavy burst.

Serbianwolf.1652:

I was just wondering, when will ANET realize how OP is Guardian’s healing (in PvP including WvW)and when can we expect it to be nerfed? Such nerfs where done on other classes in past so I wanna know when can I see this one.

Nothing personal if you are guard, I am just realistic.

You are kidding me right?

Guardian’s hp regen aint op at all.

Warrior’s hp regen > guardian anyday

Chrispy.5641:

What about the professions that have no access to poison?

What about not running solo in group content, then wondering why a class is dificient in poison?

Guardian healing seems like its in a good spot since you need to spec basically 100% into it to do the things that probably made you create this thread. Med guards have to trade almost all of that in order to have any solid damage, seems to be working as intended.

Obtena.7952:

Chrispy.5641:

What about the professions that have no access to poison?

What about not running solo in group content, then wondering why a class is dificient in poison?

Can still end up not having poison in group content. Just sayin, its not on every build let alone every profession (4/8 if they even use it).

On a side note, sigil of doom has to be the poorest excuse for poison access. Why would any suggest you give up a sigil slot for 1 poison application every 10 seconds which has this obvious icon attached to the player once it is prepared? Dat sigil of doom guardian must really melt people… Total counter built into 1 sigil who’d of known?

Yes guardians are great bunkers & provide allot of self healing.

However to do so they give up the vast majority of their damage. (the exception being meditation guardians who can easily be burst down due to having an extremely small health pool.)

I mean really IDK why anybody would get so upset about bunker guardians anyway. Warriors can provide much more healing to their team via shout tank builds while doing good condition damage.
Elementalists can also provide just as strong of support as guardians but at a greater range. What’s more they also provide better CC & more condition damage in the same spec.

Quick question on guardian, what kind of healing do they pump out (numbers, frequency, etc) on their healway or altruistic builds? Video or build link would be helpful (up to date).

NinjaEd.3946:

Obtena.7952:

Chrispy.5641:

What about the professions that have no access to poison?

What about not running solo in group content, then wondering why a class is dificient in poison?

Can still end up not having poison in group content. Just sayin, its not on every build let alone every profession (4/8 if they even use it).

So, we nerf healing then? I don’t think so.

Guardian is a turtle.

When you see a Guardian in roaming wvw or spvp you know that 2 things will happen :
- You kill him because he cannot escape
- You dont kill him but you escape

Its probably the only class that everyone else can kite, even on a GS/scepter/signet build that has 2 immobilization, 1 knockdown, 1 leap.

If its a signet build it wont heal and you can still kite.

If its a meditation he can heal but you can kite him to recover your health – or just permastealth if you are thief/mesmer.

Guardian is the worst roaming wvw profession, because its a full support class only good on zergs, that does not do so well alone, unless the other guy does not knows to play.

Guardians have a good chance beating a ranger, because ranger is as bad as guardian except that meditations give the guard a chance to last longer than a ranger, but again the ranger can still reset the fight by kiting and the use of cripple/kb.

The guardian needs to be buffed, to have a little more mobility to escape or chase, and his cooldowns decreased, only then he will be balanced.

OFFTOPIC:
Imho, the buff ranger is receiving is well deserved but its still too little in comparison to OP classes such as thief/war/engi/necro.

PS : I have 8 character slots, I have all professions

Obtena.7952:

NinjaEd.3946:

Obtena.7952:

Chrispy.5641:

What about the professions that have no access to poison?

What about not running solo in group content, then wondering why a class is dificient in poison?

Can still end up not having poison in group content. Just sayin, its not on every build let alone every profession (4/8 if they even use it).

So, we nerf healing then? I don’t think so.

Where did I say nerf their healing? Just said you can’t just assume there will be constant poison application from your team because not every class on every build has high poison up time. Also there are a lot of skills that remove conditions prior to their healing effects so it does its work most of the time, not all the time.

Rasalhague.8270:

Guardian is a turtle.

When you see a Guardian in roaming wvw or spvp you know that 2 things will happen :
- You kill him because he cannot escape
- You dont kill him but you escape

Its probably the only class that everyone else can kite, even on a GS/scepter/signet build that has 2 immobilization, 1 knockdown, 1 leap.

If its a signet build it wont heal and you can still kite.

If its a meditation he can heal but you can kite him to recover your health – or just permastealth if you are thief/mesmer.

Guardian is the worst roaming wvw profession, because its a full support class only good on zergs, that does not do so well alone, unless the other guy does not knows to play.

Guardians have a good chance beating a ranger, because ranger is as bad as guardian except that meditations give the guard a chance to last longer than a ranger, but again the ranger can still reset the fight by kiting and the use of cripple/kb.

The guardian needs to be buffed, to have a little more mobility to escape or chase, and his cooldowns decreased, only then he will be balanced.

OFFTOPIC:
Imho, the buff ranger is receiving is well deserved but its still too little in comparison to OP classes such as thief/war/engi/necro.

PS : I have 8 character slots, I have all professions

Agreed. The only thing easier to kite than a Guardian is an actual kite, and then, maybe.

The Guardian reminds me in many ways of the Paragon from Guild Wars; great in groups and not so great on their own.

Thanks.

Chrispy.5641:

vincecontix.1264:

Sigil if doom and not every prof/build will be good at everything.

….

Carighan.6758:

Chrispy.5641:

What about the professions that have no access to poison?

This isn’t a single-player game. You’re not supposed to fight 1v1, the very underlying game mechanics are trying to push you to at least fight 2v2.

Also, Guardian healing just plain isn’t thaaaaat strong. Their support is, but again, that’s something for groups and… well… you know… kinda their classes’ theme, no? It’s like a Mesmer having illusions or an Engineer having a ton of variety with their kits and tool belt.

I agree with both of you, though that wasn’t the point of my last post. The point was that someone thought they were clever by saying to just use poison to counter guards when there’s 4 professions that don’t have enough access to poison to make any difference. Even if Guardian healing was an issue at all (and its not), it would be massively more complicated then “just use poison”. I think my comment went entirely over your heads.

Poison isnt the only thing, personally when i played guard poison was next to no bother, the thing that did screw me up the most is mad stacks of confusion, cause every single time i would heal or cleanse i’d take far more damage from it then healed or cleansed and as a guard i did have low hp and armor is irrelevant vs confusion.

so confusion was the worst thing for me as a guard.

First thing i think about this: wat?… no seriously what…
For a guardian to get the ‘op’ healing you are talking about he needs to go full clerics (or settlers but lets be honest be real for a moment) and guess what he kinda hit like a wet noodle then.
So if the guardian goes that, that = bunker, he wont ever kill you unless you wont use your heal, dodge and move. But you won’t ever be able to kill him (maybe in an hour after smashing your head at him) but that is the point of bunker, to never die unless he is outnumbered.
And if the guardian has no healing what would it be good at? I guess giving boons and maybe meditation burst but dps guard isn’t really viable at the moment imo.

So no guardian healing is fine but the class isn’t perfect and also poison works on it really well so consider it and don’t try and get something which doesn’t need a nerf to be nerfed or make it so your build now works against it which it clearly doesn’t otherwise you wouldn’t whine/complain about guardian healing on the forums.

NinjaEd.3946:

Quick question on guardian, what kind of healing do they pump out (numbers, frequency, etc) on their healway or altruistic builds? Video or build link would be helpful (up to date).

I wrote a big post above outlining exactly this, check it out. The healing is quite high but not as high as is made out, and a lot of it is situational as well.

ever try stripping boons from a guard? necro well, or null field right on top of the guard, and he will go down quite fast.

TrOtskY.5927:

NinjaEd.3946:

Quick question on guardian, what kind of healing do they pump out (numbers, frequency, etc) on their healway or altruistic builds? Video or build link would be helpful (up to date).

I wrote a big post above outlining exactly this, check it out. The healing is quite high but not as high as is made out, and a lot of it is situational as well.

Link to such post? I can’t find it in your post history.

NinjaEd.3946:

TrOtskY.5927:

NinjaEd.3946:

Quick question on guardian, what kind of healing do they pump out (numbers, frequency, etc) on their healway or altruistic builds? Video or build link would be helpful (up to date).

I wrote a big post above outlining exactly this, check it out. The healing is quite high but not as high as is made out, and a lot of it is situational as well.

Link to such post? I can’t find it in your post history.

just scroll up

pho.9412:

ever try stripping boons from a guard? necro well, or null field right on top of the guard, and he will go down quite fast.

Boon Corruption Necros have a field day against bunker guardians and guardians can’t kill them by themselves fast enough so yes you are correct. Boon Strips and conversion really make them go down fast.

“Cant kill it with my auto attack, it’s too strong.”

If anything, coming from a Warrior that has fought guardians often, they need a BUFF in the form of mobility so they don’t have to sponge everything like that.

They can teleport right to someone, why cant they get a shorter range blink to disengage?

The rest seems solid, on the outside looking in.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

“Cant kill it with my auto attack, it’s too strong.”

If anything, coming from a Warrior that has fought guardians often, they need a BUFF in the form of mobility so they don’t have to sponge everything like that.

They can teleport right to someone, why cant they get a shorter range blink to disengage?

The rest seems solid, on the outside looking in.

This is a point I made in the thread “guardians are awesome” and is the major problem with the class, stopping it from doing anything but sponging a lot of damage when focused.

TrOtskY.5927:

NinjaEd.3946:

TrOtskY.5927:

NinjaEd.3946:

Quick question on guardian, what kind of healing do they pump out (numbers, frequency, etc) on their healway or altruistic builds? Video or build link would be helpful (up to date).

I wrote a big post above outlining exactly this, check it out. The healing is quite high but not as high as is made out, and a lot of it is situational as well.

Link to such post? I can’t find it in your post history.

just scroll up

I guess I need a build link because I’m looking numbers to compare to an engi build I made (don’t claim it as mine, just made it up as I went).

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fdAQJAqelUUpArtbxPLseRiaBNqzE6MmjAIyPGyPFBA-T1xDABM8AAQT9nR0DglyPn2fAgTAAgKBFEQ0A-w

Atm, didn’t get fully ascended because I don’t want to invest if I can improve it. Basically from what I’ve been doing at world events I’m a stronger AoE healing signet for the group with sufficient condi clear for them. It requires me to be in the mix though hence my high toughness and defense against cc.

So many green numbers, ~400 for the each bomb or ~500 on the super elixir pulse with aoe regen, etc. It’s a lot of green numbers, enough to pull boom boom baines hate on me the entire fight even though I had little to no damage on her. Looking into translating this to wvw on the frontline.

NinjaEd.3946:

Obtena.7952:

NinjaEd.3946:

Obtena.7952:

Chrispy.5641:

What about the professions that have no access to poison?

What about not running solo in group content, then wondering why a class is dificient in poison?

Can still end up not having poison in group content. Just sayin, its not on every build let alone every profession (4/8 if they even use it).

So, we nerf healing then? I don’t think so.

Where did I say nerf their healing?

That was the context of the reply I made to that guy. You didn’t say it, but it’s not too much to ask you understand the context of why it was made if your going to respond.

Obtena.7952:

NinjaEd.3946:

Obtena.7952:

NinjaEd.3946:

Obtena.7952:

Chrispy.5641:

What about the professions that have no access to poison?

What about not running solo in group content, then wondering why a class is dificient in poison?

Can still end up not having poison in group content. Just sayin, its not on every build let alone every profession (4/8 if they even use it).

So, we nerf healing then? I don’t think so.

Where did I say nerf their healing?

That was the context of the reply I made to that guy. You didn’t say it, but it’s not too much to ask you understand the context of why it was made if your going to respond.

You can still be in a group and not have sufficient access to poison. From the last ready up the EU shout caster even said they often focus the guardian because his healing is keeping them up. Even if you poison that guardian it’s not difficult for him to remove it. You don’t hear that kind of talk against other builds atm holding a team up so well, which is the reason for a thread like this.

I actually would say bring the other professions’ healing potential closer to guardian because it’s not a strong stat for most atm. Some still fall far back to compete with guardian. It shouldn’t be a case of “what guardian does”, it should be something they may excel at but not by this margin. Hardly a power creep either because guardian support is obviously viable, it’s just bringing others in line with what works while letting them do it in their own fashion (venom healing, mantra healing, necro siphoning, etc). I wouldn’t say guardian healing is op because they hit for next to nothing on those builds, its a perfect example of opportunity costs which should reflect onto other classes that don’t have these kinds of builds.

The old philosophy of, “all professions can fill all roles if they spec into it” seems misplaced atm.

The old philosophy of, “all professions can fill all roles if they spec into it” seems misplaced atm. [/quote]

what class cant support? what class can’t dps? what class can’t bunker?

i’ve played a mantra healer in pve, healing everyone around for 2,5k every 2.5 seconds while my phantasms grant regen and i remove conditions and put down reflective walls.

if you think outside of the box you can do some pretty great things!

Liewec.2896:

The old philosophy of, “all professions can fill all roles if they spec into it” seems misplaced atm.

what class cant support? what class can’t dps? what class can’t bunker?[/quote]

Necros lack on the support side outside of healing (which is awkward to use) and they can’t bunker due to being easier to throw off point than a tennis ball. Neither can thieves, really, since their most durable spec is SA, which gives the point to your opponent.

I think Thieves have one evade-spam spec that can kinda work, but only on Legacy of the Foefire’s graveyard due to the amount of space it requires.

NinjaEd.3946:

Quick question on guardian, what kind of healing do they pump out (numbers, frequency, etc) on their healway or altruistic builds? Video or build link would be helpful (up to date).

I run a Healway for our havoc group and the heals are decent, my empower hits for about 3k, my dodge roll 1.7k with energy on both weapon sets. On top of this i run boon duration 4xmonk 2xwater 20%, candy cactus cornbread 20%, and specline 20%(60% boon duration).

For my group I can give out:-
- 8seconds(24) protection with shield of judgement
- 6.5seconds(28) protection with hold the line
- 8seconds(75) protection with virtue of courage
For myself i add Save yourselves(48) to this for another 16seconds prot/regen(5232 – 327/s) uptime on myself(and of course the condi clear for the party)
and Virtue of resolve’s(677/3s – 225/s) passive.

9.5seconds(28) regen(2943hp – 309/s) with hold the line
8seconds(50) regen(2616hp – 327/s) with virtue of resolve

For burst healing
shield of absorption 1615 (32)
virtue of resolve 2616 (50)
empower 3075 (16)
orb of light 1733 (8)
selfless daring 1704 (sigil of energy on both weapon sets)
healing breeze 5 pulses, 1620 per pulse(40)

tome of courage
heal area 2108
protective spirit 16 seconds of prot and regen(5232 – 327/s)

XxSmokedatganjaxX.2948:

Lol… nice troll
If guardians wont ever get a boost because devs say they are “fine” then the last thing they need is a nerf…

Well some nerfs would make room for some buffs. As then guardian would stop being fine would be bad for the six months to year wait for the buffs following the nerfs though. #settlingmeta

Your freaking kidding right, guardians have a TINY kitten health pool, and without the sheer amount of heal we have we would be squishier than most glass eles. We have about 1/4th of the HP of a bunker warrior and if too many condis are stacked we got down like a paper bag, yeah lets nerf the ONE thing that a guardian is able to do really really well. Great idea