Guild Wars 2

I label it singular because all we really got is burn

tl:dr ahead

I’ve thought about guardian build diversity for some time now since I made one for pvp months ago and just recently hit 80. ATM I see 2 options, dps or tank. I don’t care to sit on a point and tank or to run in circles in a 40v1 in wvw, so I went with a dps route. As fun as meditations and sword/torch is it has become increasingly stale to me, something GS worsened. In other words, only thing I haven’t tried that I’d like to is conditions however even with the new retaliation-> condi damage trait it’s just too pathetic. There is no variety, and thematically it’s hard to add anything like poison or torment to a holy-archtype. So, it got me thinking about other condi modifiers… and it hit me. Chill

Long story short, a rework to some traits and skill behaviors to make chill behave like fear DoT(aka terror), however a lot less. Reason being it’s relatively short but it is more widely accessibly. It can fit guardian thematically seeing as how they already have a trait associated with it while also giving room for more access. It also would be centered on trait selection rather than weapon sets

tl:dr

[Traits]
-Powerful blades: Removed for being poorly placed and generally useless. New trait [Bitter Cold] Chill now deals damage. Formula (0.28) x condition damage ratio (30% less than terror w/ other conditions.)

-Eternal Spirit: additional effect, apply chill on spirit weapon commands. Chill duration 4 seconds. (bow will apply 1 second for every second in the aoe with the change to the command)

-Inner fire: Changed for unreliability purposes. New trait [Frozen Stance] Immobilizing a foe applies chill. Chill duration 2 seconds. ICD 30 seconds.

-Revenge of the fallen: Removed for obvious reasons. New trait [Symbolic Burst] Symbols cause chill on creation. Chill duration 1.5 seconds. ICD 10 seconds.

-Glacial Heart: reduce ICD to 25 seconds.

[Utility Skills]

-Bow of truth (command): Condensed duration to 4 seconds. A small aoe accompanied by a small heal has little incentive to take cover against AoE attacks. 4 seconds also makes the new trait effect for Eternal spirits balanced.

Conclusion: There would be options to chill application, but they would not be stackable without numerous sacrifices in defensive traits. In addition to runes that increase chill duration or apply chill, sigils that apply chill, there may need some tweaking to the suggestions above.

Ultimately guardian condi would not be solved by this alone, but a hybrid option or just a general step in the right direction seems plausible. Perma chill would not be possible for a number of reasons, such as ICD’s and the fact that there would be a small variety in conditions applied making condition removal quite simple. Additionally, the idea is to not have long chill durations similar to terror. The fact that it reduces cooldown recharge rates and impairs mobility is the reason for it’s moderately low DoT and the external access to it being the reason for it’s limiting application via guardian.

Thoughts?

Too much chill. I proposed that already wasn’t a success tough….

Wanna fix condition guardian put Amplified Wrath in radiance and make it prevent immunity against burn. I believe the devs don’t like hardcounters than when it comes to guardian burn shouldn’t be that hardcountered by random mobs.

That is all we need just that replacement and it will not be OP or UP just right.

There certainly would be a chill burst potential, but the ICD would prevent such a burst from being possibly for sometime after. Perhaps even longer ICD, only reason I left them somewhat low is because the damage is much lower than terror, and it isn’t meant for a strict condi build.

There are certainly some conflicting values here, but the suggested numbers are a fraction of the importance of the chill trait modifier.

With sigil of ice (chill on crit), sigil of chilling (20% chill duration) and chill duration runes (20-30%, ice ele and grenth being the only 3 that look promising) and condi duration I can see it becoming a problem :S

Chill is not thematic for Guardian. It might be okay for very rare application, but just like Burning on Necro its completely against the real theme of the class for widespread use.

The concept for guardian condition builds is to enhance function, not to be alternate approach to applying damage. This is already evident with the Zeal damage multiplier, the blind on VoJ trait, etc … The Op’s suggestion is along those lines.

As the OP points out, a serious trait rework would be needed to incorporate a whole new bunch of condition enhancing effects. I personally don’t like the idea of doing it with a condition we are poorly supported for but I think doing something similar with burning would be a more reasonable approach.

I won’t comment on the actual trait changes. I do think Chill on Hammer crits is a pretty lame trait, simply because our concept doesn’t take advantage of chill though our weakness in speed does.

Bhawb.7408:

Chill is not thematic for Guardian. It might be okay for very rare application, but just like Burning on Necro its completely against the real theme of the class for widespread use.

same as bhawb, im completely against the suggestion. Guardian is probably the last class that should get any more chill (or have it to begin with). i simply doesnt fit at all.

“Flagellation (Latin flagellum, “whip”), flogging, whipping or lashing is the act of methodically beating the human body with special implements such as whips, lashes, rods, switches, the cat o’ nine tails, the sjambok, etc. Typically, flogging is imposed on an unwilling subject as a punishment; however, it can also be submitted to willingly, or performed on oneself, in religious or sadomasochistic contexts."

Guardians needs some crown of thorns/some whipping. cause reasons. Give them boys some bleeds.

Outside of adding a new condition which is unlikely for the sake of 1 profession, its difficult seeing any potential for guardian condition or guardian hybrid. Burn requires heavy investing into some trait lines that don’t give guardian the sturdiness they need. The retaliation set up is in the same boat, taking up a ton of sustain for heavy investments. I understand every build needs to make sacrafises in some places but guardian can hover most of their points in the last 3 tree’s and still come out like a brute.

Poison doesn’t fit guardian, torment most certainly doesn’t, confusion nope, bleeds maybe. All I know is burn isn’t enough, and chill helps guardians get to their target easier since we are a class who is generally easy to kite. If the build is meant to put out pressure it’s almost moot if they can sit far back and just avoid you entirely, there needs to be some danger zone for the enemy against such a build. It would also be unique to them so it doesn’t just seem like a weaker version of warrior condi. Like I said, this suggestion isn’t aimed to solve guardian condi only help it’s wheels start turning. Mix in some bleed application with this and I can see a full condi set up being “viable”.

Some builds I thought of with the suggested changes (based on the ideas rather than the numerical values)

Hybrid- http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fVAQNAS7dl0ApSotCxWI8DRB+QZ5E8BVGAFAWBxltQQC-TphBwAAuAAaOCA82f4bZgIPAgMHEAA

Strict condi- http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fVAQNAS7dlsApSoNDxVI8DRB9QlZXciWvBnwiWVAgVSA-TphBwAAuAAnLDkb/h9HBgIPAgMHEAA

NinjaEd.3946:

-Powerful blades: Removed for being poorly placed and generally useless.

Exactly how is this trait being poorly placed? Did you even look at the trait line?

I’m not even gonna question the second part of your statement, it’s just wrong.

Chill doesn’t fit guardians as much as torment or confusion doesn’t. Chill is associated with the elements (which the guardians don’t use) or with Necromancers, which is the polar opposite of Guardians thematically. Burning is paired with life and healing, Chill is paired with death (when they aren’t elemental).

NinjaEd.3946:

Outside of adding a new condition which is unlikely for the sake of 1 profession, its difficult seeing any potential for guardian condition or guardian hybrid. Burn requires heavy investing into some trait lines that don’t give guardian the sturdiness they need. The retaliation set up is in the same boat, taking up a ton of sustain for heavy investments. I understand every build needs to make sacrafises in some places but guardian can hover most of their points in the last 3 tree’s and still come out like a brute.

Poison doesn’t fit guardian, torment most certainly doesn’t, confusion nope, bleeds maybe. All I know is burn isn’t enough, and chill helps guardians get to their target easier since we are a class who is generally easy to kite. If the build is meant to put out pressure it’s almost moot if they can sit far back and just avoid you entirely, there needs to be some danger zone for the enemy against such a build. It would also be unique to them so it doesn’t just seem like a weaker version of warrior condi. Like I said, this suggestion isn’t aimed to solve guardian condi only help it’s wheels start turning. Mix in some bleed application with this and I can see a full condi set up being “viable”.

Some builds I thought of with the suggested changes (based on the ideas rather than the numerical values)

Hybrid- http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fVAQNAS7dl0ApSotCxWI8DRB+QZ5E8BVGAFAWBxltQQC-TphBwAAuAAaOCA82f4bZgIPAgMHEAA

Strict condi- http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fVAQNAS7dlsApSoNDxVI8DRB9QlZXciWvBnwiWVAgVSA-TphBwAAuAAnLDkb/h9HBgIPAgMHEAA

You can get poison from Doom Sigil that’s enough.
Build that works:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fVAQNAR7dlsApZodDxVI8DNR8Ql1YUdAkAP61zwOcDA-TJRHwAV2fowTAAZZAAXEAA

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fVAQNAR7dlsApaoNDxcI8DNR8QZVHUdAkAP61/wMkDA-TJRHwAV2fAxFBAZZAAPBAA

Just place Amplified Wrath in Radiance and we will all be okay.

Lazze.9870:

NinjaEd.3946:

-Powerful blades: Removed for being poorly placed and generally useless.

Exactly how is this trait being poorly placed? Did you even look at the trait line?

I’m not even gonna question the second part of your statement, it’s just wrong.

It’s poorly placed because power builds have no reason to dedicate 4 trait points in a condition trait line to a weapon that applies 0 conditions (outside of a blind). If sword applied bleed perhaps it would be alright.

Burn alone is not that great and without some form of reapplying the poison, sigil of doom isn’t sufficient enough either. Condi guardian isn’t viable because it has little of a variety of conditions to put out (dmg conditions are prioritized when removed) and there is little application of them to start with. Virtue of justice helps a ton but again it lacks the variety.

I still don’t see how chill is somehow related to death, and if its related to elements as Bhawb states, guardian does use magic. Even so, engineer gets chill and they have no magic. Thief gets chill from ice drake venom and they have no association with dark magic. Burn most certainly does not mean life although its entirely a debate of perception. Some games have burn adding some sort of healing (pyromancy from dark souls for instance) yet it is there for destruction as well. There are even games that display cult-like creatures studying flames, even the flame legion which most certainly don’t use fire for good reasons. Either way, it isn’t tied to 1 personality. Also guardian does have “spirit” weapons which can be perceived as a “dark” art since it is bringing something to life.

I see chill in this game mostly perceived as an element with a few cases of it relating to “dark” magic. From that, I thought it could behave as a study a.k.a traits to form a build. Notice I didn’t suggest any weapon skills to apply chill and every chill related trait has an ICD. Basically it would be something many guardian builds can work around without restructuring their weapon skills for a condition that already has a ton of pressure associated with it. It would be similar to terror in the sense that it adds a source of damage to work with but it would not be spammable outside of a quick burst. Even so, the traits are placed in places that would make the guardian incredibly squishy if they decided to do so.

It helps condi guardian (not fixes) and gives a bonus towards a known guardian weakness, being kited. Regardless the uptime on chill would not be all that long and there are already numerous skills that directly remove chill.

There is Chill from the elements, aka from “natural” sources of ice, and then there is the “arcane” ice which has the association with dark magic. The devs even touched on this when they talked about Guardians not having a lot of access to damaging conditions because they didn’t make sense except burning because it can be a “cleansing” more cleric-like condition. Thieves get it by extracting it from an Ice Drake (which has ice-breath) and applying that to their weapons, and Engineers use technological means.

Guardians don’t have access to the elemental form of ice (they don’t use elemental magic), and they don’t have access to it like Necromancers do through “dark” means, nor access to the workarounds of Thieves or Engineers.

Spirit weapons have nothing to do with “dark”, it is their Ritualist traiting (Guardians are a mix of monks with paragon training and ritualist magical knowledge) which allows them to have out spirit weapons, they are not giving life to anything.

It still doesn’t explain why engineer gets to bend the rules through “technology” but a guardian with spells can’t mimic the effects. Spirits can be tied to any number of themes, whether its dark, light, undead, resurrection, etc. Not to nit pick but if we’re going by “arcane” the spirit weapons are literally called “arcane ____” in their tool tip. It’s a magic of sorts.

Engineer gets to push confusion out of a bullet which makes little logical sense, a thief can hit and back-step applying torment which doesn’t really make much sense. Not all condition applications make rational sense, and they can’t because it would take much longer to make thematically correct skills and balance out builds. I couldn’t possibly imagine a longer window between balance patches if they went by that standard.

Same way a trap can somehow summon cold air and chill foes, hence I suggested chill on symbol creation (with an ICD). Spirit weapons are magical, weak, and need a place so I figured give them an application and considering their long cooldown already it seemed balanced and fitting. Chains are constricting and can cause fear like shaking hence chill on immobilize( also with an ICD). The chill on hammer strikes if anything makes the least sense but it was already there so I figured I go with it.

I feel like this thread will not last long just like all the other condition guardian ones.

Just a few thoughts on possible talents….

-Frost-burn: chilled enemies take additional burning damage.

-Cold Justice: virtue of justice’s burning also inflicts chill (1 second)

-Jagged Ice: chilling effects cause bleeding

-Bloody Justice: virtue of justice’s burning also inflicts bleeding

Ezeriel.9574:

Just a few thoughts on possible talents….

-Frost-burn: chilled enemies take additional burning damage.

-Cold Justice: virtue of justice’s burning also inflicts chill (1 second)

-Jagged Ice: chilling effects cause bleeding

-Bloody Justice: virtue of justice’s burning also inflicts bleeding

Quick question, is cold and bloody justice based on the active or passive or both?

I also tried to not mix fire and ice from the same sources as it seemed a little far fetched. Maybe some synergy between the two like if you apply chill to a foe suffering from burn the burn cannot be removed until the chill is or something like that.

NinjaEd.3946:

Ezeriel.9574:

Just a few thoughts on possible talents….

-Frost-burn: chilled enemies take additional burning damage.

-Cold Justice: virtue of justice’s burning also inflicts chill (1 second)

-Jagged Ice: chilling effects cause bleeding

-Bloody Justice: virtue of justice’s burning also inflicts bleeding

Quick question, is cold and bloody justice based on the active or passive or both?

I also tried to not mix fire and ice from the same sources as it seemed a little far fetched. Maybe some synergy between the two like if you apply chill to a foe suffering from burn the burn cannot be removed until the chill is or something like that.

Too complicated will never happen be realistic check the two builds I posted they actually work but Amplified Wrath would be more fitting in Radiance.

Sagat.3285:

NinjaEd.3946:

Ezeriel.9574:

Just a few thoughts on possible talents….

-Frost-burn: chilled enemies take additional burning damage.

-Cold Justice: virtue of justice’s burning also inflicts chill (1 second)

-Jagged Ice: chilling effects cause bleeding

-Bloody Justice: virtue of justice’s burning also inflicts bleeding

Quick question, is cold and bloody justice based on the active or passive or both?

I also tried to not mix fire and ice from the same sources as it seemed a little far fetched. Maybe some synergy between the two like if you apply chill to a foe suffering from burn the burn cannot be removed until the chill is or something like that.

Too complicated will never happen be realistic check the two builds I posted they actually work but Amplified Wrath would be more fitting in Radiance.

They really wouldn’t unless there was some additional condition source that was part of guardian and not a 10-30 second proc. I know burn ticks hard, but the sources are few and far in between and would be removed quite quickly as soon as the player looked at the burn duration they have. Dishing out a 1.5 second burn from the virtue does not do much either unless the enemy is a sitting duck for smite and whirling wrath (multiple hits would mean constant burn during it’s channel). Even with amplified wrath in radiance the build just doesn’t have enough pressure on it which is bad given the defenses it has.

Sagat.3285:

Too much chill. I proposed that already wasn’t a success tough….

Wanna fix condition guardian put Amplified Wrath in radiance and make it prevent immunity against burn. I believe the devs don’t like hardcounters than when it comes to guardian burn shouldn’t be that hardcountered by random mobs.

That is all we need just that replacement and it will not be OP or UP just right.

Amplified Wrath is fine where it is/ It’s great for power burn hybrid builds which is pretty strong, not to mention 30% Condi Duration for a 6 point investment.

Lucentfir.7430:

Sagat.3285:

Too much chill. I proposed that already wasn’t a success tough….

Wanna fix condition guardian put Amplified Wrath in radiance and make it prevent immunity against burn. I believe the devs don’t like hardcounters than when it comes to guardian burn shouldn’t be that hardcountered by random mobs.

That is all we need just that replacement and it will not be OP or UP just right.

Amplified Wrath is fine where it is/ It’s great for power burn hybrid builds which is pretty strong, not to mention 30% Condi Duration for a 6 point investment.

The 30% condi duration is hardly noticeable against 1 second burns which apparently don’t even tick if the total duration is less than a second from -condi duration gear/food. It makes sense to not have high burn duration and +burn damage in the same trait line, but as the primary (and only) damaging condition it’s more background noise than a weapon. It’s almost like those minor traits that apply bleed on crits except those are usually guaranteed at least 3-5 ticks depending on the build.

We use swords. Swords cut. Cuts bleed. We need more bleeds.

Things like “When retaliation that we cast is triggered, enemy receives x stacks of bleeding; ICD z seconds”

NinjaEd.3946:

Lucentfir.7430:

Sagat.3285:

Too much chill. I proposed that already wasn’t a success tough….

Wanna fix condition guardian put Amplified Wrath in radiance and make it prevent immunity against burn. I believe the devs don’t like hardcounters than when it comes to guardian burn shouldn’t be that hardcountered by random mobs.

That is all we need just that replacement and it will not be OP or UP just right.

Amplified Wrath is fine where it is/ It’s great for power burn hybrid builds which is pretty strong, not to mention 30% Condi Duration for a 6 point investment.

The 30% condi duration is hardly noticeable against 1 second burns which apparently don’t even tick if the total duration is less than a second from -condi duration gear/food. It makes sense to not have high burn duration and +burn damage in the same trait line, but as the primary (and only) damaging condition it’s more background noise than a weapon. It’s almost like those minor traits that apply bleed on crits except those are usually guaranteed at least 3-5 ticks depending on the build.

By itself, no but I don’t think it’s meant to. It’s gives players ability to take real advantage of their durations; They can spec for 100% if their goal is 2 second passive VoJ burns … and you might find yourself surprised on how well that works. I feel that’s EXACTLY the point of having Amplified Wrath in the Zeal line. This couldn’t be done if it wasn’t.

Even with condition reduction, Guardian has the ability to CHOOSE between passive and active to reduce the impact and take the most advantage of their duration. Either way, Amplified Wrath makes less sense in any other trait line.

I would like to see a direction where a burning opponent offers a whole bunch of potential effects through Master traiting or spirit weapons. More damage is not necessary.

I’d be 100% up for some bonus effects for the guardian when they apply a burn but they do need more damage, just not burn related. Basically what seras said with bleeds. Anything with blades involved is the easiest condition to grant and would help a ton with guardian condi/hybrid efficiency.

Guardian has few traits relating to burn application like removing a boon, or increasing damage against burning foes. There is also the trait “inner fire” that grants fury when you are burned but for some odd reason it doesn’t work with zeolot’s flame. Even if it doesn’t actually burn the guardian, it would have perfect synergy with this trait but there are all these odd rules.

Even with bleed and burn however, I still feel like a modifier for chill would be really unique not just for the guardian but in general in how the build would behave. I can see it being thematically correct, but I can also see the Q.Q from excessively high condi duration + chill “spam” especially against ele.

NinjaEd.3946:

Lucentfir.7430:

Sagat.3285:

Too much chill. I proposed that already wasn’t a success tough….

Wanna fix condition guardian put Amplified Wrath in radiance and make it prevent immunity against burn. I believe the devs don’t like hardcounters than when it comes to guardian burn shouldn’t be that hardcountered by random mobs.

That is all we need just that replacement and it will not be OP or UP just right.

Amplified Wrath is fine where it is/ It’s great for power burn hybrid builds which is pretty strong, not to mention 30% Condi Duration for a 6 point investment.

The 30% condi duration is hardly noticeable against 1 second burns which apparently don’t even tick if the total duration is less than a second from -condi duration gear/food. It makes sense to not have high burn duration and +burn damage in the same trait line, but as the primary (and only) damaging condition it’s more background noise than a weapon. It’s almost like those minor traits that apply bleed on crits except those are usually guaranteed at least 3-5 ticks depending on the build.

The problem you’re seeing is you’re relying entirely on VoJ passive that you’re not including other burning sources like purging flames and Judges intervention. Even VoJ active benefits from 30%, include runes like Flame Legion and you’ll easily have about about 65% burn duration. Fast attacks like Whirling Wrath and Sword auto attack make those passive procs of VoJ stack fast and you’ll easily be seeing 3-4 seconds of burn or higher depending on how consistent you are with your attacks(1.5-1.65 in duration a proc which can easily translate into 3s burn on two procs instead os just 2 seconds). Not only that but you can also include defender’s flame which punishes fast hitting attackers when you use shelter or just blocks in general which results in a long stack of burn.

Include Doom sigil and you’re melting people. Include retaliation and pretty decent direct power damage(Retal scales on power) and it’s very punishing to spammers. 750 a burn proc hurts a lot. In radiance it only seems ideal because you’re getting condition damage in the line but you really don’t need that 300 condition damage, nothing in that line really synergizes with Amplified Wrath.

Also FYI Melandru Runes with Lemongrass= 65% Condi duration reduction, and 6 in Zeal(30% burn duration) with Flame Legion Runes=65% burn duration which doesn’t even include Koi cake and Toxic Sharpening stone. Going for 100% burn duration really isn’t worth it, it’s just excess.

Bhawb.7408:

Chill is not thematic for Guardian. It might be okay for very rare application, but just like Burning on Necro its completely against the real theme of the class for widespread use.

This classes “purity” theme screws it over in the end. The only way to fix it is with “purity” themed conditions….which is pathetic in itself if it’s all for a DoT aspect.

Lucentfir.7430:

NinjaEd.3946:

Lucentfir.7430:

Sagat.3285:

Too much chill. I proposed that already wasn’t a success tough….

Wanna fix condition guardian put Amplified Wrath in radiance and make it prevent immunity against burn. I believe the devs don’t like hardcounters than when it comes to guardian burn shouldn’t be that hardcountered by random mobs.

That is all we need just that replacement and it will not be OP or UP just right.

Amplified Wrath is fine where it is/ It’s great for power burn hybrid builds which is pretty strong, not to mention 30% Condi Duration for a 6 point investment.

The 30% condi duration is hardly noticeable against 1 second burns which apparently don’t even tick if the total duration is less than a second from -condi duration gear/food. It makes sense to not have high burn duration and +burn damage in the same trait line, but as the primary (and only) damaging condition it’s more background noise than a weapon. It’s almost like those minor traits that apply bleed on crits except those are usually guaranteed at least 3-5 ticks depending on the build.

The problem you’re seeing is you’re relying entirely on VoJ passive that you’re not including other burning sources like purging flames and Judges intervention. Even VoJ active benefits from 30%, include runes like Flame Legion and you’ll easily have about about 65% burn duration. Fast attacks like Whirling Wrath and Sword auto attack make those passive procs of VoJ stack fast and you’ll easily be seeing 3-4 seconds of burn or higher depending on how consistent you are with your attacks(1.5-1.65 in duration a proc which can easily translate into 3s burn on two procs instead os just 2 seconds). Not only that but you can also include defender’s flame which punishes fast hitting attackers when you use shelter or just blocks in general which results in a long stack of burn.

Include Doom sigil and you’re melting people. Include retaliation and pretty decent direct power damage(Retal scales on power) and it’s very punishing to spammers. 750 a burn proc hurts a lot. In radiance it only seems ideal because you’re getting condition damage in the line but you really don’t need that 300 condition damage, nothing in that line really synergizes with Amplified Wrath.

Also FYI Melandru Runes with Lemongrass= 65% Condi duration reduction, and 6 in Zeal(30% burn duration) with Flame Legion Runes=65% burn duration which doesn’t even include Koi cake and Toxic Sharpening stone. Going for 100% burn duration really isn’t worth it, it’s just excess.

I can understand the confusion so I’ll clarify. I don’t want amplified wrath to be moved, I’m simply stating the investment to make use of such traits only to make them impressionable is noticeable more than others on top of the fact that we have very little variety of conditions. The reapplication of VoJ only comes from quick hits none of which are simple to land (smite very small aoe requires immobilize for the most part, sword is fairly easy to kite although it has x5 hits in the chain, gs has a very noticeable animation for whirling wrath).

Like I said, to me it’s just background noise and nothing you can spec into atm. I’ve been up against somewhat hybrid burn guardians in pvp before and although the purging flames hits hard, couple seconds in I remove the burn and the pain is over. Most of their burn applications are easy to avoid or they have such a low up time and are easily removed.

NinjaEd.3946:

Lucentfir.7430:

NinjaEd.3946:

Lucentfir.7430:

Sagat.3285:

Too much chill. I proposed that already wasn’t a success tough….

Wanna fix condition guardian put Amplified Wrath in radiance and make it prevent immunity against burn. I believe the devs don’t like hardcounters than when it comes to guardian burn shouldn’t be that hardcountered by random mobs.

That is all we need just that replacement and it will not be OP or UP just right.

Amplified Wrath is fine where it is/ It’s great for power burn hybrid builds which is pretty strong, not to mention 30% Condi Duration for a 6 point investment.

The 30% condi duration is hardly noticeable against 1 second burns which apparently don’t even tick if the total duration is less than a second from -condi duration gear/food. It makes sense to not have high burn duration and +burn damage in the same trait line, but as the primary (and only) damaging condition it’s more background noise than a weapon. It’s almost like those minor traits that apply bleed on crits except those are usually guaranteed at least 3-5 ticks depending on the build.

The problem you’re seeing is you’re relying entirely on VoJ passive that you’re not including other burning sources like purging flames and Judges intervention. Even VoJ active benefits from 30%, include runes like Flame Legion and you’ll easily have about about 65% burn duration. Fast attacks like Whirling Wrath and Sword auto attack make those passive procs of VoJ stack fast and you’ll easily be seeing 3-4 seconds of burn or higher depending on how consistent you are with your attacks(1.5-1.65 in duration a proc which can easily translate into 3s burn on two procs instead os just 2 seconds). Not only that but you can also include defender’s flame which punishes fast hitting attackers when you use shelter or just blocks in general which results in a long stack of burn.

Include Doom sigil and you’re melting people. Include retaliation and pretty decent direct power damage(Retal scales on power) and it’s very punishing to spammers. 750 a burn proc hurts a lot. In radiance it only seems ideal because you’re getting condition damage in the line but you really don’t need that 300 condition damage, nothing in that line really synergizes with Amplified Wrath.

Also FYI Melandru Runes with Lemongrass= 65% Condi duration reduction, and 6 in Zeal(30% burn duration) with Flame Legion Runes=65% burn duration which doesn’t even include Koi cake and Toxic Sharpening stone. Going for 100% burn duration really isn’t worth it, it’s just excess.

I can understand the confusion so I’ll clarify. I don’t want amplified wrath to be moved, I’m simply stating the investment to make use of such traits only to make them impressionable is noticeable more than others on top of the fact that we have very little variety of conditions. The reapplication of VoJ only comes from quick hits none of which are simple to land (smite very small aoe requires immobilize for the most part, sword is fairly easy to kite although it has x5 hits in the chain, gs has a very noticeable animation for whirling wrath).

Like I said, to me it’s just background noise and nothing you can spec into atm. I’ve been up against somewhat hybrid burn guardians in pvp before and although the purging flames hits hard, couple seconds in I remove the burn and the pain is over. Most of their burn applications are easy to avoid or they have such a low up time and are easily removed.

That the whole point of having Amplified Wrath is Radiance for short burst of burning mainly form VoJ and Defender’s Flame if you miss the 20% condition duration in Zeal get Radiant Fire miss the extra power you have Radiant Power and some precision since we invest already in Valor.

If it’s short and strong there is no need for longer duration than 65% since cleansing won’t matter that much.

I think Torment can go pretty well with Guardian theme. When you smite or judge your foes, you torment them with the memories of all the pain they brought upon others or just essentially bringing justice to those who were caused pain by your enemies by making your enemies suffer as their victims/opponents did. In other words, Torment can be used by the Guardian to have others penance for their actions.

I don’t expect to ever see guardian with wide access to other conditions besides burning, vulnerability, immobilize and weakness. The class has conditions…just not offensive ones and that is ok.

I feel that since amplified wrath was introduced that condi guardian as a whole is much more viable than ever before. The biggest problem is how burning can just be override. They need to change conditions so that who ever does the most condi damage for that condition has priority.

If they did that, then burning guardians would definitely be more noticeable in groups.

Everyone has a widespread of non-damaging conditions, guardian is the only one with 1 damaging condition however which is bad when condition removal prioritizes them. Bleeds are easy to establish in this case, but it’s also such a plain condition and easily accessible that half the time it only takes 1 person to override the rest with the 25 cap.

They need something unique to them that fits. I can’t see torment, since it just seems like a “dark” type of condition however warrior pulls it off because of impale “tormenting” them from walking(a movement based DoT). There are things that can be twisted a little but not to any extremes. I don’t see anywhere a guardian could apply torment aside from ring of warding since their basically imprisoned however it is a light field which makes no sense with torment.

Burning is so easy to apply as guardian that I don’t see how condi removal is a problem.

My problem lies with the current state of condition builds and where guardian fits in it if they were to attempt them. Burn as you said earlier can be easy to override and its because there are a high volume of skills that apply burn. Burn as a condition is very strong, burn as the primary and essentially only (damaging) condition is not.

Even all the dmg modifiers possible for burn the DoT is not enough to compete against the current condi builds that can stack bleeds to 17+ with a mix of poison, torment, confusion, and even sometimes burn as well.

The fact that they have this wide access of conditions makes their hybrid builds also very strong where they don’t have to focus on getting high stacks as much as just having the conditions on you while they hit you with direct damage. Guardian can get a little poison in there from external sources (which others can do too so no real bonus there) and burn. To even make their conditions strong they have to give up a lot of innate defenses while on my ranger or thief or warrior heck even engineer I can be very tough to lockdown and kill while still pumping out some serious DoTs.

Sagat.3285:

NinjaEd.3946:

Lucentfir.7430:

NinjaEd.3946:

Lucentfir.7430:

Sagat.3285:

Too much chill. I proposed that already wasn’t a success tough….

Wanna fix condition guardian put Amplified Wrath in radiance and make it prevent immunity against burn. I believe the devs don’t like hardcounters than when it comes to guardian burn shouldn’t be that hardcountered by random mobs.

That is all we need just that replacement and it will not be OP or UP just right.

Amplified Wrath is fine where it is/ It’s great for power burn hybrid builds which is pretty strong, not to mention 30% Condi Duration for a 6 point investment.

The 30% condi duration is hardly noticeable against 1 second burns which apparently don’t even tick if the total duration is less than a second from -condi duration gear/food. It makes sense to not have high burn duration and +burn damage in the same trait line, but as the primary (and only) damaging condition it’s more background noise than a weapon. It’s almost like those minor traits that apply bleed on crits except those are usually guaranteed at least 3-5 ticks depending on the build.

The problem you’re seeing is you’re relying entirely on VoJ passive that you’re not including other burning sources like purging flames and Judges intervention. Even VoJ active benefits from 30%, include runes like Flame Legion and you’ll easily have about about 65% burn duration. Fast attacks like Whirling Wrath and Sword auto attack make those passive procs of VoJ stack fast and you’ll easily be seeing 3-4 seconds of burn or higher depending on how consistent you are with your attacks(1.5-1.65 in duration a proc which can easily translate into 3s burn on two procs instead os just 2 seconds). Not only that but you can also include defender’s flame which punishes fast hitting attackers when you use shelter or just blocks in general which results in a long stack of burn.

Include Doom sigil and you’re melting people. Include retaliation and pretty decent direct power damage(Retal scales on power) and it’s very punishing to spammers. 750 a burn proc hurts a lot. In radiance it only seems ideal because you’re getting condition damage in the line but you really don’t need that 300 condition damage, nothing in that line really synergizes with Amplified Wrath.

Also FYI Melandru Runes with Lemongrass= 65% Condi duration reduction, and 6 in Zeal(30% burn duration) with Flame Legion Runes=65% burn duration which doesn’t even include Koi cake and Toxic Sharpening stone. Going for 100% burn duration really isn’t worth it, it’s just excess.

I can understand the confusion so I’ll clarify. I don’t want amplified wrath to be moved, I’m simply stating the investment to make use of such traits only to make them impressionable is noticeable more than others on top of the fact that we have very little variety of conditions. The reapplication of VoJ only comes from quick hits none of which are simple to land (smite very small aoe requires immobilize for the most part, sword is fairly easy to kite although it has x5 hits in the chain, gs has a very noticeable animation for whirling wrath).

Like I said, to me it’s just background noise and nothing you can spec into atm. I’ve been up against somewhat hybrid burn guardians in pvp before and although the purging flames hits hard, couple seconds in I remove the burn and the pain is over. Most of their burn applications are easy to avoid or they have such a low up time and are easily removed.

That the whole point of having Amplified Wrath is Radiance for short burst of burning mainly form VoJ and Defender’s Flame if you miss the 20% condition duration in Zeal get Radiant Fire miss the extra power you have Radiant Power and some precision since we invest already in Valor.

If it’s short and strong there is no need for longer duration than 65% since cleansing won’t matter that much.

Amplified Wrath in Zeal for power burn is basically sustained damage build. Good power that scales retal damage and running gs scales binding blade’s damage as well. More duration means more sustained damage and the more you attack or blocks the more burns you get out of which deals a lot in ino overall total damage. Include Doom Sigil and if you want more damage Geomancy. You’re solid.

Guards have next to no soft CC, the best way for us to get soft CC is by putting sigils in weapons. A lack of soft CC is just one of the many problems with Guardian that have existed since beta…

Gaurd weapons: Guardian scepter 1 hardly ever hitting a moving target, scepter 2 mechanics are beyond atrocious, sword auto attack 3 missing a lot, sword 2 damage is garbage and sword 3…just needs a complete overhaul, staff 2 going into the ground and bugging out, hammer auto attack 3 taking two years to cast, hammer 2 not tracking on the X-Axis, hammer 5 requiring you to stop running, focus/shield 5 and the warding spells on staff/hammer having INSANE cooldown timers, shield 5 not actually blocking projectiles, torch 5 not clearing condis on the caster =P

Utility skills: Consecrations are nearly useless in wvw, spirit weapons are a joke, anything that gives us mobility has insane cooldowns. Purging flames is absolutely kittening kittened the person has to be humping your leg to get the condi clear instead of being able to run through it to purge them

Traits: Symbol/Spirit weapon traits need to be combined much like they did with specific warrior traits to make them more appealing. The Cooldown on shouts combined with the fix they did on pure of voice makes it a 4 point trait, not 6. Zealous blade/Glacial heart? rofl…Theres more but Imma move on to my main point

The Guardian class is crippled by their focus on spvp. The point defense system (which is quite un-imaginative I might add) makes guardian work well…which is why they will never fix the class or bugs wrong with it. Heres an example. Symbols are pretty weak…unless you’re defending a point. Consecrations are pointless…unless you’re defending a point.

It’s been almost 2 years and this bug still exists.

awesome right?

It’s been almost 2 years and this bug still exists.

awesome right?

Pregnantman.8259:

I think Torment can go pretty well with Guardian theme. When you smite or judge your foes, you torment them with the memories of all the pain they brought upon others or just essentially bringing justice to those who were caused pain by your enemies by making your enemies suffer as their victims/opponents did. In other words, Torment can be used by the Guardian to have others penance for their actions.

Torment is unclean for guardians, thus it will not work. It has to be all about “purity/light” for the anet to consider it for the guard.

Some suggestions to add bleed to their list (without being excessive)

Sword
[zealot’s defense] add 3 second bleeds to each hit. Given the terrain issue this skill has and how often the blades miss to begin with, it would be for a short burst of bleeds at best.

Greatsword
[Whirling Wrath] Add 4 second bleeds to the projectiles. Another projectile which only follows the x axis coupled with being sent outward in all directions as opposed to 1 (although with “target assist” off it can all hit 1).
[Binding Blade] Upon contact and every 3 seconds, apply a 6 second bleed. Effect ends if you use the pull.

Traits
[Renewed Justice] Unrealiable and hardly impressionable. For being a minor trait however, it can’t be too good. Changed to [Shimmering blade] apply bleeding on sword and greatsword critical hits (3s).

I’ll just re-add a suggestion I made in a similar thread for the Guardian forums:

• Considering that a lot of the class’ abilities relate to Fire and Light, perhaps a method of Light-based condi damage? Could put it in the Radiance line, for instance.

I will admit, that I had not considered Bleed in the original post. One could argue it from the weapons end, or the “Flagellant” angle. One could also play around further with the Burn situation. Perhaps a Trait that:

• Inflict Cripple when you apply Burning.

Could help out a bit, I would think.

I think guard could do with some soft cc though. Some cripple never hurt anyone.

Stand The Wall.6987:

I think guard could do with some soft cc though. Some cripple never hurt anyone.

Would be nice, but where would it be located exactly?

Flagellation Bleed target for x seconds. At the end of x seconds, target is Weakened. Weakness is not cast if Flagellation is cleansed before its full duration.

Eye for an Eye Send 1 condition to target enemy or next incoming condition is also applied to the enemy that cast it.

Stigmata Bleed, Cripple, & Weaken target enemy.

Everlasting Wounds (trait) When Retaliation that the Guardian cast is triggered, enemy receives x stacks of bleeding; ICD z seconds

I even like Torment for Guardian:

Penance Daze the target and give Torment.

Exorcism Poison and Torment target enemy.

These are all just thematic examples of how other conditions could be incorporated into Guardian.

I’d question exorcising something with poison in all honesty.

Seras.5702:

Flagellation Bleed target for x seconds. At the end of x seconds, target is Weakened. Weakness is not cast if Flagellation is cleansed before its full duration.

Eye for an Eye Send 1 condition to target enemy or next incoming condition is also applied to the enemy that cast it.

Stigmata Bleed, Cripple, & Weaken target enemy.

Everlasting Wounds (trait) When Retaliation that the Guardian cast is triggered, enemy receives x stacks of bleeding; ICD z seconds

I even like Torment for Guardian:

Penance Daze the target and give Torment.

Exorcism Poison and Torment target enemy.

These are all just thematic examples of how other conditions could be incorporated into Guardian.

Too bad that you like the idea for a guard to have torment. It will never happen, since it contradicts the “purity” or “holy” theme for that class.