Guild Wars 2

One thing I’m really wondering about, is that why some professions like Guardian have extreme versatility and some others like the Ranger are limited to very specific niche.

Guardian staff:
You can cast a symbol that gives swiftness to everybody that touches the symbol. Why won’t Mesmer’s focus #4 work like this? The staff’s Empower gives extreme stack of might to everybody around you… what other weapon does this? And then there’s the oppressive staff #5 that creates impassable barrier for 5 long, long seconds which can knock down foes trying to pass it for 3 consecutive times.

This isn’t really something you’d expect to see on a profession that also has great team support auras, healing, pulling, protection, invulnerability and heavy armor.

So I say that Arenanet should decide what they want to focus on in the Guardian profession and tone down abilities that are too good considering the versatility of the profession. Meanwhile they should take a look at what some lesser used and one-dimensional professions like Ranger and Mesmer could offer to groups in WvW. I dare say that even if Mesmer and Ranger utilities would reach the point of usefullness, the professions themselves would be far from overpowered. I’d just like to see the field make a bit more even.

CC. I know guards would love to get their hands on some.

Guardians bring support, even their class mechanic is based around providing buffs to others. How does more party buffs(might and swiftness) and some party protection not fit into the guardian role? Ranger brings pretty sizable damage boosts and is a dps class generally, while mesmer is more niche but when used properly can lockdown enemies for extended periods of time or lead to devastating teamwork.

If you’re talking zerg wise, then there’s really nothing to be done. Zergs are successful when they can push. Zergs can push when they have lots of stability and lots of healing, something guardians can provide a lot of. Changing the core focus of guardian because their support role is magnified in large group with many guardians is just gonna make them slightly less desirable in zergs(because makeup generally doesn’t matter much, just numbers) and a lot less useful in smaller groups due to diminished returns.

Yes, guardians have everything. Except for the two big ones

1. Except for reliable movement and escape options.
2. Except for reliable Soft crowd control to stay on a target

The guardian was created to be the go to guy for group support. They don’t need their abilities toned down at all. Because the 6/6/6/6/6 build doesn’t exist.

But they don’t have everything at once. Playing a guardian is alot bout making choices and sacrifices.

Staff 4: Empower does provide might, but with limited duration. Blasting Fire fields are always better if you have time.

Staff 3: Symbol of Swiftness was changed by anet to allow for it to support more, not less. It also had the problem of putting you in combat if a random mob crosses over the symbol.

Staff 5: line of Warding is nice but only if the person doesn’t have stability or if they simply avoid it.

As for rangers and mesmers you are comparing Apples to Oranges, when you compare them to Guardians. Because all three jobs were made to do different things.

I suggest playing the Job before you start making suggestions on how it needs to be “toned down”

Party support is Guardian’s theme and I think it should stay that way. But what buffs should they bring to the party? Stability and protection fit the theme. They’re “solid like a rock” so maybe providing swiftness should be left to other professions. There’s also too much caster-type power with AoE autoattacks (staff #1). Strong team player should be weaker individually.

Talyn.3295:

Yes, guardians have everything. Except for the two big ones

1. Except for reliable movement and escape options.
2. Except for reliable Soft crowd control to stay on a target

The guardian was created to be the go to guy for group support. They don’t need their abilities toned down at all. Because the 6/6/6/6/6 build doesn’t exist.

But they don’t have everything at once. Playing a guardian is alot bout making choices and sacrifices.

Staff 4: Empower does provide might, but with limited duration. Blasting Fire fields are always better if you have time.

Staff 3: Symbol of Swiftness was changed by anet to allow for it to support more, not less. It also had the problem of putting you in combat if a random mob crosses over the symbol.

Staff 5: line of Warding is nice but only if the person doesn’t have stability or if they simply avoid it.

As for rangers and mesmers you are comparing Apples to Oranges, when you compare them to Guardians. Because all three jobs were made to do different things.

I suggest playing the Job before you start making suggestions on how it needs to be “toned down”

Well said.

The class has deliberately designed weaknesses to keep it from being OP. Very limited options for ranged damage is one that hasn’t been mentioned yet.

Zenith.6403:

Party support is Guardian’s theme and I think it should stay that way. But what buffs should they bring to the party? Stability and protection fit the theme. They’re “solid like a rock” so maybe providing swiftness should be left to other professions. There’s also too much caster-type power with AoE autoattacks (staff #1). Strong team player should be weaker individually.

The fact that swiftness doesn’t match your concept of Guardians is irrelevant. Conceptual arguments are flexible enough to be used to justify anything and don’t belong in balance discussions.

And seriously, you’re complaining about Staff#1? …And you think it’s too strong individually. Try fighting a guardian who uses staff and see how ‘strong’ they are. The damage will barely tickle you.

You know it’s bad when a Mesmer/Thief main has to weigh in, here.

Guard has everything? Not even close.

• Only “ranged” weapon is Scepter, which is arguably the slowest-firing Scepter in game. (Not to mention that Smite should seriously be a Symbol, already.).
• Second-crappiest OOC movespeed in game, only surpassed by Mesmers.
• As previously mentioned, soft CC is a thing that Guards don’t pack much of.
• I’ll admit I’ve had unkind things to say about Empower … especially after the buffing and uber-quick nerfing of Shattered Strength. However, its duration isn’t horribly long.
• Basically, it’s not that Guard is overpowered. It’s that they’re good at buffing themselves and others. And honestly, with no Stealth option (ala Thief or Mesmer), they need something besides the “Heavy Armor” classification to keep ’em alive.

As for other things mentioned in the OP:
Neither Mesmer or Ranger are one-dimensional. Truth is, if the buggiest parts of both classes (Pet AI, certain Traits being hardcore underwhelming, et cetera.) were fixed, you’d have two extremely versatile Professions. As is, even buggy, both can be built pretty darned effective.

Another post by a player who does not play the class.

Guardian has good support options at their hands, but each with a price. The OP gives Staff as an example so I ll touch on that.

Staff attacks are lower dps comparing to other weapons we have, one must stay inside the symbol long enough for it to be effective, fourth skill while providing might and heals to allies is a long channel that locks the user in place. Second skill is quite good but not overpowered as it requires to pass through allies. Honestly only the only that doesn’t have a tradeoff in Staff is the fifth skill, but I’d say that now it puts the user in combat it became more tactical to use. Overall Staff is a good support weapon, but as a tradeoff it has low damage and requires people to be somewhat well positioned or stationary to be effective.

GreyWraith.8394:

And seriously, you’re complaining about Staff#1? …And you think it’s too strong individually. Try fighting a guardian who uses staff and see how ‘strong’ they are. The damage will barely tickle you.

- Your anecdotal evidence and thoughts are irrelevant to this balance discussion.

Zenith.6403:

GreyWraith.8394:

And seriously, you’re complaining about Staff#1? …And you think it’s too strong individually. Try fighting a guardian who uses staff and see how ‘strong’ they are. The damage will barely tickle you.

- Your anecdotal evidence and thoughts are irrelevant to this balance discussion.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Wave_of_Wrath

Damage: 222

Without high crit or power this attack barely tickles, even with its nothing to write home about. Every other guardian weapon is better in a 1v1 fight. I would suggest doing a little bit of research on skills and weapons before you say someone’s evidence or thoughts are irrelevant it makes you look alot less foolish.

^^ This too

Misleading title. Staff 1 AA is too strong…not sure if serious….but one thing is for sure the OP hasn’t put any extensive time into the profession and jsut grabbing at straws. Thread is bogus.

Guardian does have almost everything, but only as options. No single Guardian can bring everything you want at once.

What they can do is a massive range, but they have to specialize. I would put them up as the ideal “balanced profession.” Now things like the Zeal line and signets have to see some improvement.

Long cd – ridiculously long cd
Low health
Short durations on every buff
Slowest class

The class is very predictable. Anyone who spends an hour on them can work out how to beat them.

Wait what.

Do you even play guardian?

Rangers can do a lot. However, most people who play rangers just want to use their longbows.

I never thought I would see the day where guardian staff got QQ’d. Here’s another one to add to the list. “It collects to much loot!” can’t every class have a loot stick.

I cannot agree with most of the OP statements. The guardian is a solid and we’ll designed profession, but it is far from perfect. Anet owes you nothing in respect to guardians, least of all to add a focus at your demand or a nerf to skills.

Zenith.6403:

- Your anecdotal evidence and thoughts are irrelevant to this balance discussion.

Seems a bit of a double standard to create a thread for your thoughts on the matter, then to demand someone else has n rights to express theirs. Clearly you do not want a discussion on the matter. It appears all your wanting are those who agree with you.

coglin.1867:

Seems a bit of a double standard to create a thread for your thoughts on the matter, then to demand someone else has n rights to express theirs. Clearly you do not want a discussion on the matter. It appears all your wanting are those who agree with you.

- I’ve received nothing but personal attacks along the lines of “do you even play Guardians?” and dismissive texts that have nothing to do with the thread. Yours is quite fitting continuation for that.

Zenith.6403:

coglin.1867:

Seems a bit of a double standard to create a thread for your thoughts on the matter, then to demand someone else has n rights to express theirs. Clearly you do not want a discussion on the matter. It appears all your wanting are those who agree with you.

- I’ve received nothing but personal attacks along the lines of “do you even play Guardians?” and dismissive texts that have nothing to do with the thread. Yours is quite fitting continuation for that.

It’s not a personal attack to assume that you don’t play the class. It’s an observation based on your clear ignorance of the subject matter.

Don’t forget the bottom tier health pool.

guardian has two builds , one i shout bunker that you loose all your dps and mobilty to give support , the other is meditations where you give away all you support for damage and some mobilty,
i dont see how this mean you have everything.

Black Box.9312:

Zenith.6403:

coglin.1867:

Seems a bit of a double standard to create a thread for your thoughts on the matter, then to demand someone else has n rights to express theirs. Clearly you do not want a discussion on the matter. It appears all your wanting are those who agree with you.

- I’ve received nothing but personal attacks along the lines of “do you even play Guardians?” and dismissive texts that have nothing to do with the thread. Yours is quite fitting continuation for that.

It’s not a personal attack to assume that you don’t play the class. It’s an observation based on your clear ignorance of the subject matter.

+1(Everyone who sees this thread should just 1 up this)

It seems you are discussing a subject you lack both information and experience of.

It’s okay, most people who create threads on this board are like that. But don’t expect anyone to take this seriously.

noone has mentioned that guards have no condi build.
(well not a serious build anyway since they only have access to burning.)

as stated above, guardian range damage is lackluster, Smite should be a symbol.

warrior, now there is a class that does everything
condi builds, range builds, melee builds, bunker, CC builds, healer, support,
there isn’t anything that warrior can’t do great!

Liewec.2896:

noone has mentioned that guards have no condi build.
(well not a serious build anyway since they only have access to burning.)

as stated above, guardian range damage is lackluster, Smite should be a symbol.

warrior, now there is a class that does everything
condi builds, range builds, melee builds, bunker, CC builds, healer, support,
there isn’t anything that warrior can’t do great!

I don’t know about great but there are certainly a lot of things they can do well.

Shanks.2907:

I’m not sure if you know this, but falsely reporting posts is an infractable act too. There’s a difference between someone questioning your experience with a class based on the posts you’ve made and someone straight up insulting you.

- Right. Do you see the difference between these statements:

Discussing about the topic:
“Staff #1 deals low damage and is comparable to another profession weapons”
“Guardians have only a couple of viable builds”
“Guardian’s downside is lack of mobility”
“Guardian skills have long cooldowns”

Discussing and attacking the poster:
“OP hasn’t played guardian”
“GET OUT OF FORUMS AND l2P”
“OP just wants someone to agree with him”
“Oh wow another QQ thread!”

Zenith.6403:

Shanks.2907:

I’m not sure if you know this, but falsely reporting posts is an infractable act too. There’s a difference between someone questioning your experience with a class based on the posts you’ve made and someone straight up insulting you.

- Right. Do you see the difference between these statements:

Discussing about the topic:
“Staff #1 deals low damage and is comparable to another profession weapons”
“Guardians have only a couple of viable builds”
“Guardian’s downside is lack of mobility”
“Guardian skills have long cooldowns”

Discussing and attacking the poster:
“OP hasn’t played guardian”
“GET OUT OF FORUMS AND l2P”
“OP just wants someone to agree with him”
“Oh wow another QQ thread!”

The only personal insult I’ve seen in this thread thus far was the one you directed at me, which has since been deleted. The strawman argument you are posing here is not helping your case.

Not an insult, a serious question. What is your experience playing as a guardian? How much time do you have on your guardian and how much of that was in pvp and WvW?

Zenith.6403:

Discussing and attacking the poster:
“OP hasn’t played guardian”
“GET OUT OF FORUMS AND l2P”
“OP just wants someone to agree with him”
“Oh wow another QQ thread!”

None of which are reportable offenses. You’re overreacting to things that are commonly said in similar topics. You started this topic in the first place, defend your position yourself with less lamentation.

The Guardian is the best made profession. Its not anywhere near OP, yet its great at pvp wvw and pve. Its not the best at any single role, except possibly bunker but even that isnt so true anymore. Gaurdian fits the typical team leader lets get kitten done role. As I type this I feel like im talking about the Engi class

Shanks.2907:

None of which are reportable offenses.

- I just got another infraction for citing the forum policy.

I don’t even

Lol. What Guardians have:

1. Lack of mobility;
2. No real option to do a condition dmg build;
3. Lack of CC;
4. The Staff 4 is not that good, there are a lot better might stacking options;
5. to get speed only from staff 3 you need to stand still few seconds;
6. The hammer 5 is really hard to land, you need to use Judge’s Intervention to work;
7. The shield is weakest weapons in the game;
8. The torch is the second weakest weapon in the game (#5 is near useless);
9. Is the worst class to be ranged;
10. Is the class with the most useless traits;
11. Is the class with the longer cooldowns on skills;
12. Have very low viable builds compared to other classes.

If you want to compare Mesmer and Ranger to Guardian, lets see: Both ranger and mes have condtion options, both have stealth options (mainly mes), both have good options to fight (Ranger can have 1500~2000)…

I would say that warrior is good on everything, but I’m not sure if is still with the recent balance patch.

Zenith.6403:

Party support is Guardian’s theme and I think it should stay that way. But what buffs should they bring to the party? Stability and protection fit the theme. They’re “solid like a rock” so maybe providing swiftness should be left to other professions. There’s also too much caster-type power with AoE autoattacks (staff #1). Strong team player should be weaker individually.

Also Elementalist can have better group healing, higher stability, protection and swiftness uptime to the group. I’m not saying that Eles are better to support, but diferent classes do support, defense and atk in diferent ways.

The Guardian Staff #1 is really good only to tagging. Yes, you can hit up to 5 foes, but the damege is low.

Zenith.6403:

coglin.1867:

Seems a bit of a double standard to create a thread for your thoughts on the matter, then to demand someone else has n rights to express theirs. Clearly you do not want a discussion on the matter. It appears all your wanting are those who agree with you.

- I’ve received nothing but personal attacks along the lines of “do you even play Guardians?” and dismissive texts that have nothing to do with the thread. Yours is quite fitting continuation for that.

Yes. You really should try play Guardian to feel what it really is. You’ll know they aren’t that powerful like you say and will be able to see their weakness.

“Guardian has everything” except a reason to use it in tournaments. =D

Guardian is the strangest class in this game. They have been at the top of the foodchain in every part of the game except WvW roaming since launch; best DPS or support PvE, best tank PvP, best commanders in WvW. Yet nobody ever really complains.

I guess this means Guardian is the centre of Anet’s balancing universe.

slowest class

Lol’d

Cygnus.6903:

best tank PvP,

engi says hi

As many have said, you shouldn’t nit pick specific skill functions and blindly compare it to another profession’s. A lot of professions have similar skills but they (almost) always behave entirely different. It’s so they can be called a profession and not a build.

In regards to the swiftness, unless that guardian has bigger symbols traited (idk the name of trait) you won’t get 2 pulses of swiftness without standing still. Although the Mesmer one doesn’t give swiftness if you already have it, it does give 12 seconds vs 4, then there is the crippeling effect vs damage, and the pull vs traited effects (altruistic healing), and the cooldown. There are a lot of different things to compare rather than 1 giving swiftness more reliably because it isn’t bugged.

Empower requires you to stand completely still and pulses might with a small heal at the end. Good except for the underlined part.

Line of warding is like spectral wall, or unsteady ground (which has a shorter cooldown), or slick shoes. Again, its different.

tl;dr Staff most certainly isn’t their provider of 6/6/6/6/6 and guardian does not have everything.

jihm.2315:

Cygnus.6903:

best tank PvP,

engi says hi

Guard is way better esp tanking on point.

vincecontix.1264:

jihm.2315:

Cygnus.6903:

best tank PvP,

engi says hi

Guard is way better esp tanking on point.

engi is better at everything else can face most classes with ease with more cc and more damage

Everything! The longbow! The weapon kits! The passive runspeed! They got it aaaaaaaall!

jihm.2315:

vincecontix.1264:

jihm.2315:

Cygnus.6903:

best tank PvP,

engi says hi

Guard is way better esp tanking on point.

engi is better at everything else can face most classes with ease with more cc and more damage

More cc yes, more damage well? Well let me put it this way who would a media guard or static/zerker engi.

Also which zerker spec between the 2 is stronger in the overall meta. As I said b4 nothing tanks better on point than a guard.

vincecontix.1264:

jihm.2315:

vincecontix.1264:

jihm.2315:

Cygnus.6903:

best tank PvP,

engi says hi

Guard is way better esp tanking on point.

engi is better at everything else can face most classes with ease with more cc and more damage

More cc yes, more damage well? Well let me put it this way who would a media guard or static/zerker engi.

Also which zerker spec between the 2 is stronger in the overall meta. As I said b4 nothing tanks better on point than a guard.

medi guard tank ?
you have no clue what you are talking about.
the only bunker build guard has is shout/soldier.
it seems you never played a guardian

vincecontix.1264:

jihm.2315:

vincecontix.1264:

jihm.2315:

Cygnus.6903:

best tank PvP,

engi says hi

Guard is way better esp tanking on point.

engi is better at everything else can face most classes with ease with more cc and more damage

More cc yes, more damage well? Well let me put it this way who would a media guard or static/zerker engi.

Also which zerker spec between the 2 is stronger in the overall meta. As I said b4 nothing tanks better on point than a guard.

You missed the point. He was saying the engineer can tank better while providing more CC and damage. Guardians don’t put out very much in terms of damage while bunkering. So in that regard, engineer has the advantage.

I main a medi guardian myself, but the amount of CC I can put out on a zerker engineer is well worth the tradeoffs. Rifle/tool kit/net turret is a mean combination.

Zenith, try being less inflammatory in your topics if you don’t want to get a back draft of flames coming towards you. Honestly as a main guardian I find your topic title alone to be incredibly insulting because of how flat out wrong it is.

Judging from your last sentence you’re speaking of WvW… good idea to make that more clear btw. As, honestly I feel I have much more freedom and diversity of builds and tactics on my mesmer than I do on my guard in PVE.

Guardians are pretty amazing in WvW zerging, you have the swiftness while you’re on the move. Come up to a group, empower for might stacking, then drop lines or swap hammer for immob, protection, and stability on engage. Then blasts for water fields,etc… very well built for the zerg play style.

But… then you go to roam, and guardians heavily lack in mobility, which is why the idea of even less swiftness is just… no…

Guardians are built with an idea that you can’t easily disengage, which would be fine, but we also don’t have the tools to really keep the opponant from leaving either. So that leaves us pretty lacking in roaming unless the opponent is either inexperienced and lets us burst them before they react, or they are just looking for a fight and not interested in running.

So, yes guards are in a great spot in zergs (along with War, Ele, Necro) but they lack in roaming, which is why your title alone is annoying, because there very much are things we lack, and while some of the tools we’re “missing” we “have” they aren’t available in the builds and setups required to do what we want to do.

I do really feel Mesmers could use a lot of help in the zerg type battles as they’re kinda weak, as with rangers, you’re pretty much stuck sniping individuals getting half the rewards that those who are able to consistently AE get, it’s pretty lame. Still professions that are wanted, rangers pinsniping causing so much rage is enjoyable, and mesmers portals alone are just…wow.

Carighan.6758:

Everything! The longbow! The weapon kits! The passive runspeed! They got it aaaaaaaall!

[Want it all Parody]

I want it all, stuns lasting cc
diamond skin, endure pain and tool belts mane
Picking everything
I want it all, thousands of conditions,
my own phantasms and a couple of AI friends
I want it all, brand new traits and yall
can for once say I’m not in a good place at all
I want it all, all, all, I want it all, all, all