Ill put it bluntly this game currently runs around two things. Damage, and the ability to deal it as quickly as possible.
While i agree pure damage team composition gets things done faster and that shouldnt change, the whole team shouldnt be handicaped either the moment a guy who runs a more defensive oriented build jumps in.
Im gunna get a LOT of hatred for this post and I expect it especialy coming from the high end player who thinks every single player who runs even the slightlest on a defensive mechanics is bad and team ruining but the whole point of this post is to make such mechanics actualy usefull to a team.
1. Enginer turrets: Its no secret that turrets not only deals bad damage but are brittle easy to destroy and have no purpose in general save for wasting the team time. While stuff like net turrets in general have the advantage of causing periodic immobilize turrets like rifle and missile are just plenty useless.
Missile could simply put have the ability to cause AOE effect knockdowns instead of single target when overcharged and for a longuer duration (yea that totaly silly but granting the things lauch about only every 5 seconds the rockets can either be dodged or just can be ignored via stability). I highly approve the insertion of a trait granting statut stacks every few seconds but those status especialy the might one needs to stack a longuer duration and or grant a smaller interval.
The last thing is that turret should be WAY harder to destroy. Mobs can just smash them in a single hit and ruin everything, if a turret build is to ever serve some kind purpose turrets needs to have a serious amount of hp and take some time to die unless focused. For this purpose increasing the feat of the armored plating to turret would be good
2. Minion master pets: You going to say something like.. what seriously you want to make MM even more anoying? Well ill put it that way MM pets dies way to easily and while for any necro the loss of a summon is not such a burden yet the moment a boss fight begins you likely are going to loose your pet very often. Consider that each hit the boss waste on pet is meaningfull it would be wonderfull if it worked that way but the issue is that the moment pets are targeted by a red AOE they all die at the same time due to taking the full damage from them. Weither a MM pets die within seconds or not is somewhat irrelevent in spvp because almost no player targets them behing way to focused on taking down the MM itself and unless you actualy aoe like a godlike monsters its very likely youl still be fighting the MM pet even when hes downed and about to die something that right now thanks to the lovely protection of the horde trait that cause all pet to die on necro down is no longuer an issue.
3. Ranger pet: you all gunna say the ranger pet is useless for anything else then dealing DOT and in theory you would be 100% right, however shouts like guard protect me and search and rescue could actualy have been of some use in a fight especialy SAR. The reason such ability are not is first that the pet dies way to easily to aoe and second that it takes it entire minutes to simply jump to a target and start healing.
4. Mesmer phantasm: As with necromancer and enginer phantasm mesmer have the issue of having a hard time maintaining their illusion long enought to be worthwhile, im looking at the phantasmal defender and disanchanter for instance who simply put serve no purpose save for getting themselves one shoted quickly. Defender could have its AOE damage taken largely decreased as well as for any real phantasm since like all illusion they are squishy as hell and die to the first aoe ability spammer that gets out in the field. Bosses becomes a test of how fast you can rebuild a team up and in the end you just become another distraction spammer (hance the reason why most mesmer spam illusions and phantasm only for the purpose of breaking them up). I wont deny the advantage of a shatter build but running an army mode mesmer shouldnt be worst of a build especialy since it also is highly damage oriented.
5. Support ele: Elementalist buff while usefull brings no real advantage to the team in a boss fight, not to mention just any ele can do the same job while running a full zerker build. Supportive ability should have their effect downscaled dramaticaly and be increased just as strongly by healing power (as it is healing power and buff duration scaling should be 2 or 3 time as strong while all supportive ability should have their benefits divided by half!) so to magnify the actual effect of running a little of it.
6. Healing power: as it is currently it hold so little meaning its basicaly the avoided stats, why would people need it anyway? A guy with absolutely no heal power can tank like a truck trought sheer evade blocks and self buffing (guardian, warrior, rangers, enginers prety much all class actualy overheal damage easily witheout any form of healing power if anything the current healing on heal skill or ability should be halved and granted a way bigger scaling)
(edited by kyubi.3620)
Any support role will slow down a team in a dungeon if we are talking about PvE, support roles are welcome on sPvP and WvW.
Every hit the boss or mobs waste on a fodder unit is a hit you aint taking. Considering the fact dungeons with a lot of mobs should normaly work like dredge fractal (a place wich is hated quite a lot by most high end players) and not be a rush for the next corner with every single idiotic things stacking over your head free for getting slain in an aoe spam, one should think that encounter are designed to last a lot longuer and that simply dodging all the blow or minimising the time during wich mobs can do them isnt suposed to be an option. With the current way Anet works constantly at ruining close range stacking im prety much sure simply overdamaging everything wont remain viable forever witheout additionnal form of control.
I dont want to sound lame but dredge fractal is prety much the closest we currently have to an actual working as intended instance.
Support would slow down in the case of a party wich overlive everything throught sheer damage, but what would happen if from lets say starting today you no longuer could stack togueter and started getting seriously hit in encounters. Minion master in GW 1 had the lovely purpose of making easy prety much any encounter trought number of availlable targets, Id like to point out that right now thx to the overwelming dps a team can cause you only need to last about 5 or 8 seconds in a corner to kill everything. When a fight takes way longuer zerker paths starts to seriously show some serious deficiency.
When im talking support i actualy talk pve wise right now
(edited by kyubi.3620)
Support roles are always my favourite in mmo’s. My favourite class in Rift was Archon as I loved the idea of sacrificing my own strength (by applying stat down effects to myself) I could give buffs to the whole party. But this game will never have a class like that since its designed for players to be much more self sufficient unfortunately.
It makes waiting on a tank or a healer less of an issue, but you also kind of lose that “i’m important to my party!” feel you get with traditional mmo styles.
Honestly, the only way for us to see more diversity in desired PvE builds is to overhaul mobs to be much more like players. Rapid, moderate damage attacks alone are enough to make it so pure Zerker compositions are very tough to pull off because their active defense will no longer exceed their enemy’s offense. This is the primary reason why Zerker stats are not the be-all-end-all of PvP and WvW. If you do that, now an optimal team composition might include someone who does a good job of either taking the hits or keeping allies on their feet or keeping those hits from ever amounting to much in the first place.
Factor in enemies using conditions in varying amounts and intensities, using boons in more ways than just “spam on a 3 second cooldown,” and synergizing together, and you get a much, much more varied PvE environment. We already see this with the Mordrem, Toxic Alliance, and Aetherblades. Now the design needs to spread to more enemies in the game.
Oh, and Defiant needs a rework badly to encourage control setups as well.
(edited by Drarnor Kunoram.5180)
Anyone who says support doesn’t exist in PvE is a moron with no idea what they are talking about.
Support exists and is extremely popular in every single game mode. All good PvE groups will have every single member bringing some form of support, every WvW group will have support roles, and every good sPvP team has some support builds or builds with support built in.
But this game will never have a class like that since its designed for players to be much more self sufficient unfortunately.
This is the biggest misconception in this game. There are reasons why in wvw and spvp support is actually valuable.
It is unfortunate that in PvE, the incentives are so skewed and distorted (blame Anet) that these roles have these kind of perceptions.
I think the main problem is that everyone thinks of support as the cookie cutter mmo support role.
Support exists in PvE and it’s used. The reason why there are comps for speedruns is because each profession can bring different support to the fights (bar Necro, sorry!)
Anyone who says support doesn’t exist in PvE is a moron with no idea what they are talking about.
Support exists and is extremely popular in every single game mode. All good PvE groups will have every single member bringing some form of support, every WvW group will have support roles, and every good sPvP team has some support builds or builds with support built in.
support at the expense of overall damage does not exist in PvE.
for example: if a ranger brings spotter and frost spirit, he is “supporting”, but only in the sense that the loss of dps he takes from bringing those is outweighed by the dps his party gains. same can be said about a staff guardian: the group might gain outweighs the personal dps loss of the guardian having a crappy off-slot weapon.
however: showing up to a dungeon as a “tank” or “healer” to “support”; that is not support. it does not exist here and it does not make groups stronger.
Anyone who says support doesn’t exist in PvE is a moron with no idea what they are talking about.
Support exists and is extremely popular in every single game mode. All good PvE groups will have every single member bringing some form of support, every WvW group will have support roles, and every good sPvP team has some support builds or builds with support built in.
support at the expense of overall damage does not exist in PvE.
for example: if a ranger brings spotter and frost spirit, he is “supporting”, but only in the sense that the loss of dps he takes from bringing those is outweighed by the dps his party gains. same can be said about a staff guardian: the group might gain outweighs the personal dps loss of the guardian having a crappy off-slot weapon.
however: showing up to a dungeon as a “tank” or “healer” to “support”; that is not support. it does not exist here and it does not make groups stronger.
Because unlike other MMOs the support you do and the damage you do are not designed to be mutually exclusive.
There’s no DPS or Support role. You do damage ( as much as you can) while supporting your team. How much damage you do depends on how well you can time your heals/active defenses and dodges to stay alive.
This isn’t your standard MMO where going support means tanking up and taking those hits in the face while healing.
Whos talking about taking hits? As i said before this game has one serious issue right now and its that just anyone can support like a pro all while running a pure damage specialisation. Skill effectiveness arent tied to anything save for boon duration and even then build like GS war and elementalist stacks boons like crazies witheout even trying.
Control also is by far a very undervalued utility in a party. Stuff like turret engy MM necro and mesmer who normaly could keep mob at bay just end up turning into aoe damage spammers, in the case of necro its just useless party member (no offense but running power necro wont get you far).
By support i mean stuff like mass weakness, AOE crowd control and actual damage misdirection, the issue is such thing are highly undervalued here unlike in GW 1 where it was key to many a fight (you could highly feel it when the mesmer mass interupted everything in the ennemy caster party or the necro prevented the mobs from striking everyone trought meat shielding)
Right now not only the mobs are brainless they also lack some form of actual synergy.
I actualy look at AC ascalonian warrior healing signet with high interest because it show they can teach mobs how to heal themselves forcing player into interupting them (imagine if many more common mobs could actualy self heal in battle how much of an anoyance it would be! Look also at the dredge who party buff themselve with might and protection. Whats sad is prety much nobody care about it jump into the frey and kill them nonetheless because why would you waste time rupting the healing warrior and preventing that drummer from playing? Waaaay to busy smashing them to bits with that greatsword of yours are you?
Lack of ennemy control currently isnt punishing enought, some ennemy party should be insanely more difficult to kill if left able to do whatever they please in battle (buffing, healing). I mean where did the tactical fight from guild wars 1 go to? World vs world?
Now now we cant forever live in the past this isnt GW1 however it doesnt excuse GW2 for behing a braindead game when the first game actualy forced the player to think while fighting.
(edited by kyubi.3620)
thats not a player problem, its an anet problem.
if full dps with minor concessions for party-wide dps gains is the way to go, people will do it.
if you are better off with an interrupter, a tank or some passive heals, people will do it.
at the moment, you are not better off interrupting or controlling or spreading weakness. thats not players hating on the support role, thats just a result of that role having absolutely no value. if Anet introduced mobs that hit a lot harder and healed a lot, zerk would be less wanted and players would adjust the group composition to win.
perhaps not wanting to lock players into needing an interrupter, or a debuffer, or a healer or tanky types is the one part of their manifesto they are trying not to betray us on.
By support i mean stuff like mass weakness,
Used extensively in high level fractals via skale venom, warrior warhorn blast, thief sword auto, etc.
AOE crowd control
Warrior tremor, guardian binding blade, mesmer mantra of distraction, magic bullet, thief pistol whip, etc.
actual damage misdirection
reflects are rampant in dungeons and fractals.
Whats sad is prety much nobody care about it jump into the frey and kill them nonetheless because why would you waste time rupting the healing warrior and preventing that drummer from playing?
Because the dredge applies the protection too frequently for it to be worth interrupting.
Lack of ennemy control currently isnt punishing enought, some ennemy party should be insanely more difficult to kill if left able to do whatever they please in battle
Try not reflecting risen elementalists, try not dealing with ascalonian elementalists, try ignoring illusionists, try ignoring kaeyi when fighting tazza (if you aren’t able to pull tazza separately), try ignoring the mobs in CM throughout the entire dungeon. The elites in dungeons can actually tear you apart if left unattended.
Ill put it bluntly this game currently runs around two things. Damage, and the ability to deal it as quickly as possible.
No offence, but you are so terribly wrong on this.
Team support IS everything in this game. If it was not, then every class would only look to maximize it’s dps and would not give a kitten about anything else. Warriors are not the best stackable class for their dps. Its the support they can bring to a group with banners etc… Rangers are not needed in a group for their pewpew from 1.5k range. They perform much better when they wield a sword and having spotter and frost spirit, which helps the group by a lot. etc etc
What is actually hated is someone who does not bring anything to the group. LB signet rangers for example, who stay at 1.5k range pewpewing, Bunker builds, condition builds etc.
Your role in a dungeon/fract etc, is to
-1: Help the group with various buffs/ anything you can offer
-2: Deal as much damage as possible.
3. Ranger pet: you all gunna say the ranger pet is useless for anything else then dealing DOT and in theory you would be 100% right, however shouts like guard protect me and search and rescue could actualy have been of some use in a fight especialy SAR. The reason such ability are not is first that the pet dies way to easily to aoe and second that it takes it entire minutes to simply jump to a target and start healing.
Wrong again.
In trash pulls, you should have a pet that can apply some buffs to the group with it’s special ability. For example red moa for furry or stalker jungle something, for stacks of might etc. In boss fights, with Rampage as One, companion’s might and sword chain attack, your pet will have most of the time 25 stacks of might, resulting to 8-10k crits from cats. Plus as long RaO is up, the pet will grant you might each time it hits a target, which will give you a LOT of stacks.
Whoever claims that pets are useless, is either a troll, or a bad ranger who leaves his pet uncontrolled, being in totally wrong traits, and having it on passive mode 24/7.
Edit: I won’t argue that some shouts could use some love/rework, but still your comment about ranget pets is so totally wrong.
Find a use for guard and SAR then. Also pet could do so much more then a one time buff, stow trick and a periodic dps tool.
I wont pretend pet is useless in my build i run entirely on it to the point my personnal damage is minimal. However you gota admit witheout a doubt that prety much all pet shout save for sic em are useless. Not to mention most ranger wont even care to use them… this is so wrong
(edited by kyubi.3620)
Anyone who says support doesn’t exist in PvE is a moron with no idea what they are talking about.
Support exists and is extremely popular in every single game mode. All good PvE groups will have every single member bringing some form of support, every WvW group will have support roles, and every good sPvP team has some support builds or builds with support built in.
yes to wvw and pvp.
Pve, it depends.
You bringing banners or empower allies/spotter/ etc? yes.
You decked out in full givers to rev people that down? You’re a detriment.
there’s a balancing point where stacking lots of toughness / etc on yourself outweighs the benefit you give by simply staying alive.
walking around healing people that dont actively need it to beat the boss is kind of silly.
Find a use for guard and SAR then. Also pet could do so much more then a one time buff, stow trick and a periodic dps tool.
I wont pretend pet is useless in my build i run entirely on it to the point my personnal damage is minimal. However you gota admit witheout a doubt that prety much all pet shout save for sic em are useless. Not to mention most ranger wont even care to use them… this is so wrong
I didn’t say they are usefull. Then again no class has only usefull abilities. AFAIK, guard had a use in WvW very early days, but they nerfed it and it’s been like that since then.
I just replied to your comment where you said that pets are useless and good only for DoT, which is totally wrong. In the PvE meta build, your pet will be critting anywhere from 4 to 10k with buffs up. This is far far away from useless.
Whos talking about taking hits? As i said before this game has one serious issue right now and its that just anyone can support like a pro all while running a pure damage specialisation. Skill effectiveness arent tied to anything save for boon duration and even then build like GS war and elementalist stacks boons like crazies witheout even trying.
Control also is by far a very undervalued utility in a party. Stuff like turret engy MM necro and mesmer who normaly could keep mob at bay just end up turning into aoe damage spammers, in the case of necro its just useless party member (no offense but running power necro wont get you far).
By support i mean stuff like mass weakness, AOE crowd control and actual damage misdirection, the issue is such thing are highly undervalued here unlike in GW 1 where it was key to many a fight (you could highly feel it when the mesmer mass interupted everything in the ennemy caster party or the necro prevented the mobs from striking everyone trought meat shielding)
Right now not only the mobs are brainless they also lack some form of actual synergy.
I actualy look at AC ascalonian warrior healing signet with high interest because it show they can teach mobs how to heal themselves forcing player into interupting them (imagine if many more common mobs could actualy self heal in battle how much of an anoyance it would be! Look also at the dredge who party buff themselve with might and protection. Whats sad is prety much nobody care about it jump into the frey and kill them nonetheless because why would you waste time rupting the healing warrior and preventing that drummer from playing? Waaaay to busy smashing them to bits with that greatsword of yours are you?Lack of ennemy control currently isnt punishing enought, some ennemy party should be insanely more difficult to kill if left able to do whatever they please in battle (buffing, healing). I mean where did the tactical fight from guild wars 1 go to? World vs world?
Now now we cant forever live in the past this isnt GW1 however it doesnt excuse GW2 for behing a braindead game when the first game actualy forced the player to think while fighting.
First of all – I’ll explain it again.
What you do in this game – damage/control/support is dictated by your :
Traits
Utility skills
Weapon
It has nothing to do with your armor. Your armor is a completely different issue.
The gear that you wear is the gear that you can best stay alive in – if you can master the game to a degree that allows you to survive in full zerker – that’s great. It’s got nothing to do with what you plan on doing as a role.
The better you are at staying alive the more damage you’ll be able to deal because you won’t require crutch stats to keep you alive.
Regarding the support you’re talking about – and the lack of interrupts and CC being more punishing – that’s not going to happen.
GW2 is a casually oriented game – with encounters designed from the ground up to be fail-proof in 90% of cases.
Unless you’re undergeared, underleveled and have no clue – you’re going to succeed no matter how you mash your keyboard.
Unless this fundamental “feature” of the game changes – support via control, cc and interrupts will only be a dream.
Support is irrelevant? Where’s my 5 necros speedclear?
Support is irrelevant? Where’s my 5 necros speedclear?
I know right.
Something to think about.
If the only thing that mattered in Dungeons, or Fractals, (organized group content), Was Dps.
then Necromancer would have a spot in the Dungeon Meta.
Here let me say that again so you can actually think about it.
IF the only thing that was important was damage. Necromancer would be In the dungeon Meta.
Any support role will slow down a team in a dungeon if we are talking about PvE, support roles are welcome on sPvP and WvW.
In fact, given the specs in comparison to what we run in PvE, I’d argue that ~all PvP and WvW specs are “support”. Even the relatively glassy builds run condition cleansing abilities, movement skills, boon ripping ,etc.
yeah because self centered condition removal and altruistic healing are sooo supportive.
yeah because self centered condition removal and altruistic healing are sooo supportive.
If you apply that logic, then purest glassy DPS is quite supportive. It kills the enemy which could otherwise attack your team.
yes, that’s the point. Pve,pvp and www doesn’t need the same support. Since pvp game modes are about unavoidable damage and being the last one standing, most pvp specs are “selfish” from a pve point of view because they need that extra survivability to do their other support role, being in the frontline. But in pve, the goal is to avoid completely that damage, by dpsing the mobs fast enough so that active defenses doesn’t run out. There’s 3 big categories of support: defensive support, the most traditional, being aegis, blinds, heals, proj. reflection, protection, area vigor/weakness, etc; and there’s offensive support, wich people often forget, like might, fury, fire fields, vuln, party wide boosts like banners or spotter, conjures and then supportive utilities, things that makes a run faster by using a profession specific skill to gain time/ counter something, like portals, stealth, area swiftness, mobility conjure ( fgs). Control is usually in the third category for me.
So yes, support exists in this game, in all game modes. If you can’t see it, watch closer.
While i agree pure damage team composition gets things done faster and that shouldnt change, the whole team shouldnt be handicaped either the moment a guy who runs a more defensive oriented build jumps in.
Except it doesnt work that way, only braindead + their sheep meta it as such.
For example, for a afk easy mai trin you get: Warrior/Mesmer+1 person with a few soldier pieces and full condi cleanse dedication with decent regen/health+3 full glass dps with only 1 defensive skill.
Mes or War block all ranged shots; soldier guy tank-kites her in circles letting her hit a few times/start her flurry animations etc; rest dps from behind. Gratz you got a 0 downed 0 danger run which probably lasts just as long as a 5 man idiot rush on mai with 25 might and spotter banner, since they will get cleaved and downed without exploits no matter how skilled since she has 3 hard dps bottlenecks.
BTW stats buffers and artifical skill boosts/making up for kitten solo build power with aoe buffs isnt support, its the core thing dps does, in EVERY MMO.
I tend to mix in a little bit of support in my builds, as long as it doesn’t get in the way of doing damage. I play a well o’ mancer, so Protective Rituals is a trait I always have equipped. When all you do is cast wells, having every well provide protection to the team, is a nice addition.
Support is irrelevant? Where’s my 5 necros speedclear?
I know right.
Something to think about.
If the only thing that mattered in Dungeons, or Fractals, (organized group content), Was Dps.
then Necromancer would have a spot in the Dungeon Meta.
Here let me say that again so you can actually think about it.
IF the only thing that was important was damage. Necromancer would be In the dungeon Meta.
No it wouldn’t. Even the highest damage necro builds are out-classed in damage by moderate damage thief and ele builds. Necro DPS isn’t actually that good. It’s not terrible, but if the only important thing was damage…Necros still wouldn’t have a spot in the dungeon meta.
As other people have astutely mentioned, support is everything in this game. Reflects, Stability, CC, blinds, condition removal, DPS buffs these are all things every good dungeon team does. Either you aren’t aware of that, or you are aware and choosing to ignore it.
No, what I think we have here is a desire for someone to play a do-nothing midliner build that can sit back doing nothing but spam buffs/debuffs. That isn’t this game. Everyone on the team in this game is expected to contribute 1/5th of the DPS, Support and Control. No free lunches. No midliners hiding out spamming buffs. That isn’t this game. It won’t be this game. It shouldn’t be this game.
Support roles are disliked in PvE because of how predictable the AI is. AI is the reason zerker is the only thing dungeon runners use. When you know exactly what’s going to happen managing risk becomes easy, when managing risk is easy, you want to run high reward builds even if they are high risk.
If you make it harder to manage risk in PvE, Zerkers becomes less viable.
Support roles are disliked in PvE because of how predictable the AI is. AI is the reason zerker is the only thing dungeon runners use. When you know exactly what’s going to happen managing risk becomes easy, when managing risk is easy, you want to run high reward builds even if they are high risk.
If you make it harder to manage risk in PvE, Zerkers becomes less viable.
This. If any dungeon had chaotic elements that made predicting AI or events less easy, you’d see more room for bunkers/heals/what have you.
unfortunately, all the AI right now is if(!Boss){runTowardYouAndAttack};
We had bunkers at the start of the game; anchor guardians. A lot of people know playing the meta were using a tanky gear at some point when the game started, and then realized they could actually survive in berserker gear and achieve the same amount of support, if not more, while contributing to the group damage ( wich became another form of support).
You see a lot of those guys in your average pug, thinking how great it is to “tank” bosses, because they are misleaded and really think they are useful to their team. Then, they end up realizing that if they really were a tank, their teammates would die last, since he would act as a meatshield against incoming damage. But since aggro isn’t tied to your tankiness and a lot of attacks are aoe, being a ptv ah guard only boosts your own survivability for no real gain for your team. When you realize it, you’ll try to protect them by other ways, aegis, protection, or healing power. Now, you then see how healing power doesn’t scale well, and how most of your direct heal are either a boon everyone can apply, or some specifics skills better used to something else. Soon, you try to get a little more dps, and end up in berserker gear at some point. And you drop your altruistic healing because you don’t need it anymore, and you know how a personal heal doesn’t help your team.
At that point, the extra survivability gained from gear and traits acted as a training wheel, wich is perfectly fine considering not everyone played as much as those zerker elitists. That’s totally understandable. Now, what isn’t understandable, is how a minority of people try to enforce their playstyle, and ask for a total nerf of the fast paced active defense playstyle in favor of their non meta builds. Healing and toughness stacking works if everyone does it, as the extra survivability will ensure the healing to be worth something; in a meta speed clearing group, the healing isn’t helpful, and therefore should be dropped for more dps/ utilities.
Remember that everything is viable in pve as well: Because we ( speedruns guilds, efficiency seeking players) don’t want to play with a unorthodox spec, doesn’t mean you can’t open your own lfg and find like minded people. If a meta player comes into your group and is a total jerk, insult your playstyle and try to force you into his, you’re free to kick him. And we are free to do the same.
This has been explained countless times, and still those topics keep coming and further discourage any cooperation between meta and non meta adepts. I’m myself using meta builds on all my pve characters, but I’m more often than not playing with all type of players, to explain my vision of pve and show them it’s totally possible to survive in a dps setup, because I feel like it’s the way to go.
Hope this helps you guys from " the other side" understanding our pov. Won’t re read myself, so there’s probably english mistakes and whatever, but you get the point.
First off I run in full zerker equipment on all my character. What im talking about here isn’t about gear effectiveness but build choice. Sure I try and minmax my damage when possible but sometime running the meta contradict the very principes I play a class for. Lets say for exemple Necromancer. While I could play the dagger build I didn’t lvl a class from 1 to 80 so to spam 1 with a dagger I leveled it so I could play minions. Now from a damaging point of view minions are kind of underwhelming and its something i give back to the others with my ability to exert multiple crowd control as well as an efficient meat shield. Does this work in a zerker war team compo? No because it slow downs fight and therefore is a nuisance to them. In short don’t play necro go play a thief that way you can spam 1 all the day for better damage result wich is the message.
Now ranger… Well i didn’t build a darn ranger so i could run a sword combo, Since day one ive ran axe and longbow both weapon everyone consider useless in a party. Worse yet i run a 6 BM build built around pet damage wich in itself is an insult to all those anti pet player. While usefull for dps it lacks team support save for healing spring and is therefore looked at as harfull to a ‘’conventional meta team’’ Now it wouldn’t be such an issue if pugs didn’t start acting like ‘’play meta or don’t play’’ or just didn’t felt like joining because they like it easy. Ive ran fractals only in early lvl as ranger because in higher level if you don’t run sword you get insta booted or people leave the party the moment they see your class… because? not meta
I run Meta warrior and guardian, I run a phantasm Mesmer (also considered underwhelming to shatter) I run a flamethrower enginer (considered weaker then bomber). At this point its no longuer about play and work the build you wanted its about play their build shut up and loot thing btway you need to run x or your booted. I run zerker the same as you all do, only defrence is i run a deferent build and just because I do 3k less damage per second in exchange for something else doesn’t mean im not viable.
My issue ill tell you is that theres one single recognised as viable build per class and that if you don’t run it you might as well stop playing because you wont get anywhere near any high end game content. (note i finished the fractals lvl 45 as a warrior never bothered to come back in there because i got sick of behing constantly told what to play. I mean look at that i made that character to run rifle and now im running a greatsword robotically doing instance so I could make money for alts can this even be considered as ’’playing’’?? After this no surprise people getting sick of fractals). Now i don’t mean to say everyone would hate running the meta, some guy run a class so they can run that very build that trash out everything, I am sure sword ranger who made their ranger for this purpose enjoy it, this doesn’t mean that the only road to effectiveness should run trough these builds alone.
Now I know its near impossible to make everyone hit for the same damage but some build which rely on mechanics with underwhelming dps due to the absence of scaling should actually benefit from the zerker boost as well that way people could actualy choose between running that shiny sword build for 500 additional base damage or switch to a axe/longbow spec wich lesser damage but deferent advantage witheout behing a major hinderance.
(edited by kyubi.3620)
note i finished the fractals lvl 45 as a warrior never bothered to come back in there because i got sick of behing constantly told what to play. I mean look at that i made that character to run rifle and now im running a greatsword robotically doing instance
So basically what you’re saying is your roleplaying choices are conflicting with the actual game. Tough luck dude. The game isn’t balanced around people’s roleplaying choices. When you say that everything should be equally viable you sound very naive like you haven’t ever played an MMO before and how no idea that such a concept is impossible.
FWIW, there is not a single profession that has an “always best build” in PVE. Traits are meant to be changed on the fly based on the encounter and what your team composition lacks.
Ive played guild wars 1 before and trust me you can prety much make a LOT of viable combination around cross class specs. Yes GW is a MMO too and from the same developers nonetheless.
That one build with a specific weapon does good damage is no excuse for other build not to be able to perform just as well. The game isnt conflicting with anything the way people minmax every scrap of stat is. Sure at this point you may go run in pugs cept people tire of behing ignored and refused in party and either leave the game or play your way wich ends up with prety much a blend farming game (i didnt buy a world of warcraft clone). The guys up there didnt give us 6 trait line each with 6 slot as well as about 30 skill per profession just so we all run the same stupid build they intended us to create original stuff and work around with the traits.
When it comes to the point of a single build we no longuer are playing guild wars but just another wow clone not to mention custom build creation is suposed to be guild wars strong suit.
If for exemple a guy choose for instance to run a confusion mesmer build in pvp he shouldnt just be able to run it but to also kill people with it. As far as it is right now running a confusion build as mesmer is prety much trashy and im not even talking about it in pve where the mobs basicaly takes next to no damage from it.
As a small reminder GW 1 didnt had stat it had skill point and based on the number of skill point in a specific line the skill of the line would deal bigger or lesser damage. Issue here is that all skill are automaticaly considered as having decent effectiveness and that running a heal or a buff skill with a full damager set is practicaly the same as running it as a cleric set cept with a +90% to all damaging moves.
In short run x or your build is doomed to fail? Every trait and stat should be as viable as one another and traits that just wont serve any purpose should go or be largely improved.
If a build is possible to run it should also be viable to run. The state of builds such as Summoned weapon guardians, Siphon necromancer, Confusion mesmer, Beastmaster ranger, gadget enginer, signet elementalist and rifle warrior is simply unexcusable.
(edited by kyubi.3620)
I played a p/p deadly arts trapper thief in www zerg, and I felt less useful than a crowd control shout heal warrior, please buff me qq
Ive played guild wars 1 before and trust me you can prety much make a LOT of viable combination around cross class specs. Yes GW is a MMO too and from the same developers nonetheless.
That one build with a specific weapon does good damage is no excuse for other build not to be able to perform just as well. The game isnt conflicting with anything the way people minmax every scrap of stat is. Sure at this point you may go run in pugs cept people tire of behing ignored and refused in party and either leave the game or play your way wich ends up with prety much a blend farming game (i didnt buy a world of warcraft clone). The guys up there didnt give us 6 trait line each with 6 slot as well as about 30 skill per profession just so we all run the same stupid build they intended us to create original stuff and work around with the traits.
When it comes to the point of a single build we no longuer are playing guild wars but just another wow clone not to mention custom build creation is suposed to be guild wars strong suit.If for exemple a guy choose for instance to run a confusion mesmer build in pvp he shouldnt just be able to run it but to also kill people with it. As far as it is right now running a confusion build as mesmer is prety much trashy and im not even talking about it in pve where the mobs basicaly takes next to no damage from it.
As a small reminder GW 1 didnt had stat it had skill point and based on the number of skill point in a specific line the skill of the line would deal bigger or lesser damage. Issue here is that all skill are automaticaly considered as having decent effectiveness and that running a heal or a buff skill with a full damager set is practicaly the same as running it as a cleric set cept with a +90% to all damaging moves.
In short run x or your build is doomed to fail? Every trait and stat should be as viable as one another and traits that just wont serve any purpose should go or be largely improved.
If a build is possible to run it should also be viable to run. The state of builds such as Summoned weapon guardians, Siphon necromancer, Confusion mesmer, Beastmaster ranger, gadget enginer, signet elementalist and rifle warrior is simply unexcusable.
The difference is in GW1 you had heroes to carry you through content and your terrible builds didn’t get called out by Ogden or Livia. Believe me, there were bad builds and good builds in GW1. GW1 had a speed running meta and people were expected to run good builds there.
Bad builds in GW2 are just as viable as your bad GW1 builds were, the difference is in GW2 another human will see just how bad your bad build is and probably isn’t interested in putting up with it. You can run a spirit weapon guardian in GW2 PVE. You could run a PvE Mes/Ele with 16 Fast Casting and 12 Water Magic in GW1. Both are about equally effective in dungeon running in their respective games. The difference is that in GW1 you played solo, in GW2 you play with humans.
Ive played guild wars 1 before and trust me you can prety much make a LOT of viable combination around cross class specs. Yes GW is a MMO too and from the same developers nonetheless.
That one build with a specific weapon does good damage is no excuse for other build not to be able to perform just as well. The game isnt conflicting with anything the way people minmax every scrap of stat is. Sure at this point you may go run in pugs cept people tire of behing ignored and refused in party and either leave the game or play your way wich ends up with prety much a blend farming game (i didnt buy a world of warcraft clone). The guys up there didnt give us 6 trait line each with 6 slot as well as about 30 skill per profession just so we all run the same stupid build they intended us to create original stuff and work around with the traits.
When it comes to the point of a single build we no longuer are playing guild wars but just another wow clone not to mention custom build creation is suposed to be guild wars strong suit.If for exemple a guy choose for instance to run a confusion mesmer build in pvp he shouldnt just be able to run it but to also kill people with it. As far as it is right now running a confusion build as mesmer is prety much trashy and im not even talking about it in pve where the mobs basicaly takes next to no damage from it.
As a small reminder GW 1 didnt had stat it had skill point and based on the number of skill point in a specific line the skill of the line would deal bigger or lesser damage. Issue here is that all skill are automaticaly considered as having decent effectiveness and that running a heal or a buff skill with a full damager set is practicaly the same as running it as a cleric set cept with a +90% to all damaging moves.
In short run x or your build is doomed to fail? Every trait and stat should be as viable as one another and traits that just wont serve any purpose should go or be largely improved.
If a build is possible to run it should also be viable to run. The state of builds such as Summoned weapon guardians, Siphon necromancer, Confusion mesmer, Beastmaster ranger, gadget enginer, signet elementalist and rifle warrior is simply unexcusable.
The difference is in GW1 you had heroes to carry you through content and your terrible builds didn’t get called out by Ogden or Livia. Believe me, there were bad builds and good builds in GW1. GW1 had a speed running meta and people were expected to run good builds there.
Bad builds in GW2 are just as viable as your bad GW1 builds were, the difference is in GW2 another human will see just how bad your bad build is and probably isn’t interested in putting up with it. You can run a spirit weapon guardian in GW2 PVE. You could run a PvE Mes/Ele with 16 Fast Casting and 12 Water Magic in GW1. Both are about equally effective in dungeon running in their respective games. The difference is that in GW1 you played solo, in GW2 you play with humans.
Long as the viable option killed people in pvp i think it can be called good build especialy if it can down the enneny monk. Ive seen very weird stuff like Nightmare weapon hundred blade (old version) ritualist and things of the likes in RA and know what most of them indeed were viable in battle. Every class had at least 4 or 5 defrent possible meta (not including cross class hybrid wich could make those option go up to 10) and this is the kind of thing Anet should aim for in guild wars 2 rather then single build mode.
Do you have any reason to be upset at the idea that some other build could be equaly good to yours? Rather then be anoyed at the idea of variable build option around you should actualy encourage it long as they dont hinder you (as in why not ask for buff to underpowered build so they can be used instead of complaining about not wanting them in your party). If you are against hinderance then why protest against other build behing LESS hindering and more usefull in a party, theres nothing wrong with variety it only brings more options and the fun of having options is suposed to be part of the guild wars tradition. Would you still refuse a guy in your party if his build was actualy viable by about a 500 or 700 dps defrence between a 10000 to 10700 race especialy if theres other class around doing that same damage you still would protest for a 600 to 700 dps defrence? The reason why people like you care so much is because that very defrence is way to spaced and it becomes a nuisance, if the defrence in dps was prety much like a arcane mage and a pyromancer doing a duel in wow (considering both to be having similar damage) then no one would actualy protest.
Anet seems to share my mentality as they prioritise underused stuff before anything else in their class updates.
(edited by kyubi.3620)
Support is irrelevant? Where’s my 5 necros speedclear?
I know right.
Something to think about.
If the only thing that mattered in Dungeons, or Fractals, (organized group content), Was Dps.
then Necromancer would have a spot in the Dungeon Meta.
Here let me say that again so you can actually think about it.
IF the only thing that was important was damage. Necromancer would be In the dungeon Meta.
I’d actually go so far as to say that:
If the only thing that was important was damage. Warriors would not be in the dungeon Meta.
Sure utility and party wide buffing is important but why should it limit itself to damage boost.
Swirling winds is a damage boost? Blinds are a damage boost? aegis are a damage boost? condition removal is a damage boost? protection is a damage boost? Combo fields are a damage boost? Portal is a damage boost? Swiftness is a damage boost? ( yeah it can procs a 1-2% modifier i guess) Area weakness, vigor are damage boosts? Any projectile mitigation non including reflects ( wich are damage boosts, but aren’t used for that, anyway) stability is a damage boost? stealth is a damage boost?
And then, there are poor necros who don’t bring anything someone else doesn’t do better…
Of course, if mobs were more likely to use large numbers of high-duration (and longer recharge) boons, Necros would become much more attractive. As it is now, if you want boon stripping, bring a Mesmer. Mobs use low-quantity and/or constant boon application, which Mesmer is far more suited for removing.
@Drarnor, in the case of Andal in HotW, Mesmer is better not for removing the Might, but for stealing the Might and then giving the group 25 stacks of Permanent Might. Also with Mimic, Mesmers can now obtain 25 Might onto themselves instead of only holding 3.
Of course, then you have the idiot that shouts and gives everyone Might.
Unless they fixed it already…
Swirling winds is a damage boost? Blinds are a damage boost? aegis are a damage boost? condition removal is a damage boost? protection is a damage boost? Combo fields are a damage boost? Portal is a damage boost? Swiftness is a damage boost? ( yeah it can procs a 1-2% modifier i guess) Area weakness, vigor are damage boosts? Any projectile mitigation non including reflects ( wich are damage boosts, but aren’t used for that, anyway) stability is a damage boost? stealth is a damage boost?
I dont need a build to run any of these in the first place. Im talking about build here not about skill. Sloting a skill specific to an instance is a free action or nearly (do you seriously think the mesmer carry portal or feedback constantly equiped, of course not he switch skill depending on situation like everyone). What im talking about here is for instance why should a ranger be forced to run for exemple the trait spotter. I mean nice cute i wasted 4 point just to grant my party a small crit rate increase couldnt i have put it elsewere? Well that elsewhere should be viable as a decent choice to.
(edited by kyubi.3620)
It is viable elsewhere. Just not in improving your party DPS in a run meant for efficiency.
There is nothing stopping you from not taking Spotter and Frost Spirit (traited). You can easily not take them and be just as good, if not better, by yourself.
However, you’re not boosting the damage of 4 other people, which means, as a party, you will lose damage.
Speedruns are about “the party”.
“Play how I want” is about “me”.
It is viable elsewhere. Just not in improving your party DPS in a run meant for efficiency.
There is nothing stopping you from not taking Spotter and Frost Spirit (traited). You can easily not take them and be just as good, if not better, by yourself.
However, you’re not boosting the damage of 4 other people, which means, as a party, you will lose damage.
Speedruns are about “the party”.
“Play how I want” is about “me”.
As i said. Party shouldnt be limited to run this or gtfo either. if theres no usefull alternatives to running spotter then make them, no trait should be usefull as to be mendatory.
“The party” as an entity, only exists for speedruns.
If you want to partake in a speedrun, you need to be willing to adhere to the expectations.
If you do not want to partake in a speedrun, you are free to do so and can play how you want.
You can’t have a cake and eat it.
Speedrun in itself is an abomination and i think we all know what Anet thinks of it. As history suggest they have harshly nerfed every single build wich allowed for farming in the past starting with Silouete sin and Cof spellbreaker monks.
I dont want to sound lame… but there should be more dungeon like the dredge fractal around here as its the closest to how Anet originaly intended dungeon to be done.
Long as the viable option killed people in pvp i think it can be called good build especialy if it can down the enneny monk.
What does PvP have to do with this topic? You’re complaining about PvE metas, I prove your point about GW1 grossly wrong, and you come back with PvP?
Not relevant because the meta in PvP in gw1 was just as strict. If your team wanted to hold halls or win GvGs high up on the ladder, crappy builds were not part of the equation.
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