Guild Wars 2

Splatter Paw.7238:

Ele has plenty of tools to down a thief, like idk chill, immobolize, and any number of blocks.

Ele’s have 1 immobilize on 1 of their weapons (Staff #4 earth), which has a crazy slow telegraph, 30 second cooldown and will never hit anyone who is moving around.
“Any number of blocks” – block 3 attacks on a 75sec cooldown with Arcane Shield. At which point the thief simply stealths and comes back a few seconds later to blow up the Ele.
Chill – Frozen Ground or Frost Aura, both of which have 40 sec cooldowns and don’t stop the thief from simply stealthing away and coming back a few seconds later to blow up the Ele.

Everything an Ele can do only delays their death by a few extra seconds. There is no way to reliably hit a thief with ANY of Ele’s ridiculously telegraphed/slow-casting abilities since they are spamming evades & stealthing.

Splatter Paw.7238:

It really makes me chuckle to see after a year ppl whining over hs spam. Yesterday a thief spammed toward me, know what I did? Interrupted him in mid air and spiked him as he dropped problem solved not hard zerglings just stratigize.

Well done. Doesn’t change the fact that HS spam is still extremely high reward with zero setup and spammable.

Wintel.4873:

Splatter Paw.7238:

Ele has plenty of tools to down a thief, like idk chill, immobolize, and any number of blocks.

Ele’s have 1 immobilize on 1 of their weapons (Staff #4 earth), which has a crazy slow telegraph, 30 second cooldown and will never hit anyone who is moving around.
“Any number of blocks” – block 3 attacks on a 75sec cooldown with Arcane Shield. At which point the thief simply stealths and comes back a few seconds later to blow up the Ele.
Chill – Frozen Ground and Frost Aura, both of which have 40 sec cooldowns and don’t stop the thief from simply stealthing away and coming back a few seconds later to blow up the Ele.

Everything an Ele can do only delays their death by a few extra seconds. There is no way to reliably hit a thief with ANY of Ele’s ridiculously telegraphed/slow-casting abilities since they are spamming evades & stealthing.

Splatter Paw.7238:

It really makes me chuckle to see after a year ppl whining over hs spam. Yesterday a thief spammed toward me, know what I did? Interrupted him in mid air and spiked him as he dropped problem solved not hard zerglings just stratigize.

Well done. Doesn’t change the fact that HS spam is still extremely high reward with zero setup and spammable.

Hey Wintel,

I feel you gave a good illustration with not only what is wrong with ele but the game mechanics in general. I do not want to make things over complicated but I’ll just try to keep it simple:

1. There are no casting bars because anet wants everyone to observe the animations of skills.

2. By observing animations of skills you are suppose to consciously make the choice to dodge or use defensive skills to mitigate the incoming damage.

It sounds like a neat idea on paper, but the problem is the skills with animations are the weakest in the game. Why? Everyone just dodges them, in general you won’t have much of a chance to hit them with these attacks. A pattern I noticed is the builds that are considered op amongst players are the builds which have attacks that have near instant animations or very non discernable animations. These attacks are hard to avoid, mitigate and generally have a very fast cycle time between their uptime and cooldown time.

In a nut shell the biggest issue with the combat system is that Anet picks and chooses which skills follow the rules. Instant and hard to read skills shouldn’t be very powerful, highly telegraph skills should be very powerful. If it followed this pattern it would be similar to fighting game mechanics:

In street fighter, weak punch is a low damage, low risk, low reward move. But fierce punch is a high damage and high risk move due to the long animation. Unfortunately, I do not feel Anet will ever balance the performance difference between what I’ve mentioned.

You know the single best counter to HS spam is chill.

Seriously.. chill your opponent. Makes HS go 1/2 the range. At that point you can outrun it.

Sir Kaboomski.1508:

You know the single best counter to HS spam is chill.

Seriously.. chill your opponent. Makes HS go 1/2 the range. At that point you can outrun it.

Well, that works for HS spammers which solves this topic.

It would be a totally different case though if you put in other factors like thieves going to stealth or using Shadow shot or steal to close the gap again. And what chill skill is faster than HS spam aside from Frost Aura? Maybe Swapping weapons/attunement really fast with Sigil of Hydromancy.

All this time i’ve been forgetting to use chill on thieves!!!

You’ve solved the problem! I’ve not been bothering to use those two skills when im attacked.

I’m just glad there’s someone like you around to point these things out.

Wintel.4873:

Splatter Paw.7238:

Ele has plenty of tools to down a thief, like idk chill, immobolize, and any number of blocks.

Ele’s have 1 immobilize on 1 of their weapons (Staff #4 earth), which has a crazy slow telegraph, 30 second cooldown and will never hit anyone who is moving around.
“Any number of blocks” – block 3 attacks on a 75sec cooldown with Arcane Shield. At which point the thief simply stealths and comes back a few seconds later to blow up the Ele.
Chill – Frozen Ground or Frost Aura, both of which have 40 sec cooldowns and don’t stop the thief from simply stealthing away and coming back a few seconds later to blow up the Ele.

Everything an Ele can do only delays their death by a few extra seconds. There is no way to reliably hit a thief with ANY of Ele’s ridiculously telegraphed/slow-casting abilities since they are spamming evades & stealthing.

Splatter Paw.7238:

It really makes me chuckle to see after a year ppl whining over hs spam. Yesterday a thief spammed toward me, know what I did? Interrupted him in mid air and spiked him as he dropped problem solved not hard zerglings just stratigize.

Well done. Doesn’t change the fact that HS spam is still extremely high reward with zero setup and spammable.

Ele’s have two weapons with immobilize and one utility skill.

and one trait, which no one uses for good reason.

Introp.8465:

Evilek.5690:

Loco.4561:

Evilek.5690:

Introp.8465:

Black Teagan.9215:

6k Dmg is fine for a berserker, who attack another berserker.

As a single target melee skill, this skill have to be a little stronger, than the area attacks from the other classes. E.g. Ele can do 4k dmg/s with Lava Font on up to 5 targets or 5x over 16k with Churning Earth or warriors with 3x over 12k in 3s with HB.

how is it fine to be able to spam 6k damage skill which has gap closer in it? no warrior skill hits even close to that on fair grounds. Semi traited eviscerate will do 6-7k on low armor, but it has huge cast time and obvious leap animtaion + you need full adrenaline for that and 7s cd. with 100b you STAND STILL, means you need setup for that (or you are hitting 1/6 of damage max) to land – immobilize (can be cleansed) or stun ( stun breakers). with HS you just spam away. 2 ( enemy dodged that?) 2 ( again dodge?) – 2 2 2 2 dead now.

Spam 6k DMG Full glass cannon 30/30/0/0/10, 2x sigil of force=10% DMG,Assassin signet +15% DMG,Flaking strike +5% DMG,Improvisation +10% DMG, 20x MIGHT stack, etc. vs light golem 3x crit DMG.

Don’t use sPvP to counter argue damage done in WvW, they are different, scaling is completely different and you can’t achieved anywhere near the same stat combos, so it’s worthless.

As for your armor, for today’s meta I’d consider anything under2500 Armor as a glass build and I’m surprised you weren’t hit for me. Proper full glass thieves would down you in under 2 seconds with their normal steal>C&D>backstab chain with that low armor. On the flip side, you can (if you can catch them) sneeze on them and they would likely die :p

WoW i hit so hard with full ascendent + legendary in WvWvW, HS SPAM IS REALLY OP !!!

You like pictures? here, made some in spvp
http://i.imgur.com/k5nHwfl.jpg
on this one you can see 5 hs spam damage – 4 hits for 3k+ and anfter health threshold you start dishing out 6k+. Keep in mind this damage done in roughly 5s
after that follow real scenario – backstab into hs. 1 backstab and 2 hs target down, 2-3s.
(yes this build would not work in real life, but somehow without 20 might stacks and other stuff i managed to do bigger hits, means you tried to make the as low as possible trying to trick others)
After that follows example on medium ( my initial back stab somehow was lower than before, managed to 3 shot medium same as light but anyways, damage still there, down time – 3-4s.)

here is screenshot on indestructible golem
http://i.imgur.com/Di61tcQ.jpg ( damage done when he is lower than 50% ofc, to show potential of spam)

http://imgur.com/O1945EV
another one on moving heavy golem. ( starts with backstab).
all i did is land first back stab, folloing pressing 2 2 2 2 2 ( not moving abit, not even turning, he walked path around corners, i did follow him auto, just pressing 2 button on same interval

and unlike you, i didnt even use assassin signets active

Now….both of you realize that build would never be used by a competent player in Spvp or Tpvp right?

You are fluffing up stat’s to give an unrealistic perspective of damage.

phaeris.7604:

I’m an ele. 2500 armour.

How can I get hit for 6k each time by a spammable attack.

My churning earth has a 3 1/2 sec cast time and does that damage to soft targets.

It involved absolutely no skill, no sort of setup and it has a gap closer attached. If youre fighting someone else (i was), thief jumps in, presses 2 twice and that much damage?

Attacks which involve no setup, no cooldown and no cast time shoudn’t hit for that much.

“Attacks which involve no setup, no cooldown and no cast time shoudn’t hit for that much.”

Actually, the cast time is .75 per HS. The amount of skills a thief can perform is based on how many initiative they have – a resource and or pseudo “cool down” mechanics.

So, I addressed the “no cooldown” and “no cast time” parts of your comment. Let me address the “no setup” part. A thief doesn’t magically appear out of no where and bam bam HS you to death. He either needs to use a stealth ability to sneak up to you or use gap closeer for the HS. If the thief spam HS while you were at low health, the attacks he performed before that is the setup for the HS (a finisher). I have now addressed all of the points in your comment and deemed it to a baseless request for nerf.

phaeris.7604:

All this time i’ve been forgetting to use chill on thieves!!!

You’ve solved the problem! I’ve not been bothering to use those two skills when im attacked.

I’m just glad there’s someone like you around to point these things out.

So the question is.

What match-up is actually good for the ele in its current state..

Because judging from your post history, you have trouble with quite a few professions…..

Well I guess I was wrong Solari, since you pointed it out. I guess I made the mistake of expecting not to be hit in quick succession for 6k damage a time by an ability which requires 0 setup to use.

Your amazing opinion due to the fact you are such a well recognized player clearly dwarfs my own and all classes are balanced and even in equal hands. Your spvp experience clearly marks you out as being the pinnacle of all knowledge of class balance.

And Mirra…sigh..how many heartseekers can you do in one initiative bar. 0.75 is a cooldown now? I didn’t realise we were being super petty. Heartseeker is 0.25 secs slower than an elementalists air auto attack. That’s not exactly a cast time equivalent is it. It’s not ’ Oh look!, he’s about to cast heartseeker! i better avoid this one!’

If you’re having trouble understanding what happened re-read my initial post. It wasn’t 1v1. Who sneaks up on their opponent as a thief? Shadowstep/steal/Signet….gap closing on a thief is extremely easy, i played one.

I wouldn’t mind if it were a C+d/steal/mug into backstab combo, least that takes a modicum of skill and has a cooldown. Heartseeker is like me firegrabbing 4 times in a row.

The problem with HS spamming is that it’s utilised by every nub thief out there (which there are many), and produces significant damage without having to even try.

phaeris.7604:

Well I guess I was wrong Solari, since you pointed it out. I guess I made the mistake of expecting not to be hit in quick succession for 6k damage a time by an ability which requires 0 setup to use.

Your amazing opinion due to the fact you are such a well recognized player clearly dwarfs my own and all classes are balanced and even in equal hands. Your spvp experience clearly marks you out as being the pinnacle of all knowledge of class balance.

And Mirra…sigh..how many heartseekers can you do in one initiative bar. 0.75 is a cooldown now? I didn’t realise we were being super petty. Heartseeker is 0.25 secs slower than an elementalists air auto attack. That’s not exactly a cast time equivalent is it. It’s not ’ Oh look!, he’s about to cast heartseeker! i better avoid this one!’

If you’re having trouble understanding what happened re-read my initial post. It wasn’t 1v1. Who sneaks up on their opponent as a thief? Shadowstep/steal/Signet….gap closing on a thief is extremely easy, i played one.

I wouldn’t mind if it were a C+d/steal/mug into backstab combo, least that takes a modicum of skill and has a cooldown. Heartseeker is like me firegrabbing 4 times in a row.

The problem with HS spamming is that it’s utilised by every nub thief out there (which there are many), and produces significant damage without having to even try.

“And Mirra…sigh..how many heartseekers can you do in one initiative bar. 0.75 is a cooldown now? I didn’t realise we were being super petty. Heartseeker is 0.25 secs slower than an elementalists air auto attack.”

If you read my post, I said .75 sec is the cast time and initiative system is the “cool down.”

" It wasn’t 1v1."

So it was a 1v2. You die, I don’t see a problem here…

“Shadowstep/steal/Signet….gap closing on a thief is extremely easy, i played one.”

My point exactly! They need to gap close to attack and HS to finish. All of which is part of the “setup.”

“Heartseeker is like me firegrabbing 4 times in a row.”

I didn’t know firegrab had a health threadshold and HS had a burning requirement.

Let me try this again. Instead of saying “HS does too much damage it should be nerf” please provide constructive reasons as to why it warrant a review. Below is a sample format to follow that would faciliate discussions:

Ability – HS
Reason – e.g. low counter play. I have no skills that can counter it. etc etc
Proposed Rework – Rework so HS does more damage at 10% vs at 25% or increase cast time to 1 sec, etc etc
Compensation – Due to lower overall damage, decrease init by xx or increase range by xx

People who advocate for thief having increased HP and/or defense don’t comprehend that the world would not be a better place if EVERYBODY was brown.

The concept of Thief is a low hp, low defense, HIGH BURST DAMAGE, high mobility character.

The concept of Ele is a low hp, low defense (but with lots of BUFFS), good burst damage character with very good AOE.

The concept of Mesmer is a fairly high HP, low defense (again with buffs) more rounded caster with tricks and good sustain plus good burst.

The concept of Engi is a more mechanized variation of Mes with good sustain/condi and fairly good hp and defense.

The concept of Necro is high survivability with lots of AOEs and conditions and some good burst skills.

The concept of Guardian is very high survivability through defense and defensive skills and heals with good sustain, good aoe, very good overall support.

The concept of Warrior is a do-anything-well power or support with very high defense and hp combination and lots of damage, sustain and support…but it also has top mobility and passive regen.

Don’t homogenize them.

Wintel.4873:

Ele’s have 1 immobilize on 1 of their weapons (Staff #4 earth), which has a crazy slow telegraph, 30 second cooldown and will never hit anyone who is moving around.

That’s strange, I could’ve sworn that I’d been using earth dagger 3 to immobilize foes this whole time.

2 years have passed. And people still complain about HS.
Hs was already nerfed. It has obvious and long animation. No evade frames. User of HS CANNOT interrupt it. Thief using hs can’t dodge, can’t block, can’t stealth, can’t move.
I can imagine troubles eles have with certain thief builds, but hs spam? Then this game is not for you, at least on ele. Besides engi, I can’t imagine any other class to be able to punish HS spam as much as ele can.

Ichishi.9613:

2 years have passed. And people still complain about HS.
Hs was already nerfed. It has obvious and long animation. No evade frames. User of HS CANNOT interrupt it. Thief using hs can’t dodge, can’t block, can’t stealth, can’t move.
I can imagine troubles eles have with certain thief builds, but hs spam? Then this game is not for you, at least on ele. Besides engi, I can’t imagine any other class to be able to punish HS spam as much as ele can.

It means either that:
a. Anet has failed balancing for the past “two” years.
b. People never learn how to cope with it.

Part of me wants to say it’s “a” but that’s because Anet has failed balancing on many other areas that it affected my view of their balancing team. TBH I’m more wary/afraid of Flanking Strike/Pistol Whip spammers than HS spammers.

Ichishi.9613:

2 years have passed. And people still complain about HS.
Hs was already nerfed. It has obvious and long animation. No evade frames. User of HS CANNOT interrupt it. Thief using hs can’t dodge, can’t block, can’t stealth, can’t move.
I can imagine troubles eles have with certain thief builds, but hs spam? Then this game is not for you, at least on ele. Besides engi, I can’t imagine any other class to be able to punish HS spam as much as ele can.

This one is so nice….
One must be a thief to say such things….
Skill so weak…no evade… no stealth …no move…lol
Indeed if benchmark for thief is that skill is unblockable, perma root target, provide stealth and is also a stun breacking evade then indeed HS need a hudge buff.

phaeris.7604:

Well I guess I was wrong Solari, since you pointed it out. I guess I made the mistake of expecting not to be hit in quick succession for 6k damage a time by an ability which requires 0 setup to use.

Your amazing opinion due to the fact you are such a well recognized player clearly dwarfs my own and all classes are balanced and even in equal hands. Your spvp experience clearly marks you out as being the pinnacle of all knowledge of class balance.

And Mirra…sigh..how many heartseekers can you do in one initiative bar. 0.75 is a cooldown now? I didn’t realise we were being super petty. Heartseeker is 0.25 secs slower than an elementalists air auto attack. That’s not exactly a cast time equivalent is it. It’s not ’ Oh look!, he’s about to cast heartseeker! i better avoid this one!’

If you’re having trouble understanding what happened re-read my initial post. It wasn’t 1v1. Who sneaks up on their opponent as a thief? Shadowstep/steal/Signet….gap closing on a thief is extremely easy, i played one.

I wouldn’t mind if it were a C+d/steal/mug into backstab combo, least that takes a modicum of skill and has a cooldown. Heartseeker is like me firegrabbing 4 times in a row.

The problem with HS spamming is that it’s utilised by every nub thief out there (which there are many), and produces significant damage without having to even try.

Clearly you cant read ,or you dont actually have an answer for me..

Maybe I will bold this question this time for you ok?

What match-up is actually good for the Ele, in its current state

Do I need to ask this question in another language for you?

Also, do you see where I said getting hit for 6k was ok?

Maybe try using that thing we humans call a brain and not over-react and form that " everyone is against me because !#!%" mentality.

Oh look..I can make condescending and rude remarks too..

HS spam is really avoidable, especially so as an ele.

Drop a daze field, mist form, any immob, chill, cripple, or really anything which inhibits movement speed will cut down on HS range. Weakness makes the skillspam next to worthless especially when dropped in tandom with other skills like chill/cripple.

HS spam is a pubstomp ability. It pretty much destroys anyone who doesn’t learn how to beat it, but it’s totally worthless against foes who do. Arguably HS D/P is only potent because of the blind field and not so much the actual damage throughput.

While I’m not stating the skill is fine as it is (as someone who has/mains two level 80 thieves), it’s really preventable and I don’t think backtalk is going to get you anywhere, OP.

Reality is that you just need some more practice or are playing the wrong class if you expect to be able to tank damage upfront, especially with only 2500 toughness.

Is this another qq topic of 2500 armor guy getting hit by hs for 6k ? Well let me clarify things for you, that damage comes only when you are bellow 25% hp. Requires no setup to perform it? Well how about dropping your HP to 25 % in first place and not getting blown by you in the process.

Thieves are OP and they need to be deleted from the game

no other class can do that

By the way i unistalled GW2

See you never Noobs

Masterjalf.4928:

Thieves are OP and they need to be deleted from the game

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8Lh8Oogl6Y

no other class can do that

By the way i unistalled GW2

See you never Noobs

If you play like most of those ppl that die in outnumbered videos…Good riddance.

Aiden.6483:

@Mek, OH RIGHT because eles have perma immobilize! Let me just immobilize this thief right here that will then teleport and keep attacking the ele.
@OP, the situation is that in the current meta (in pvp and wvw) thief is pretty much the anti-ele. They steal our boons, they cc us (hard and soft cc, dazes and cripples and immobs) and because they have such high damage and we’re so squishy, they usually dont have any trouble killing us.

Hopefully with the balance patch we will see some improvement to ele so we can deal with thieves with a bit more efficiency. (Add a “revealed” effect on certain ele skills? Maybe a trait that gives you aegis if you’re hit for 10%+ of your hp?)

gd…my post was a joke about the typical thief response about how immobilize just makes their toon explode and deletes their account for them. It got infracted and deleted by the forum moderators. …oh well.

Karolis.4261:

Masterjalf.4928:

Thieves are OP and they need to be deleted from the game

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8Lh8Oogl6Y

no other class can do that

By the way i unistalled GW2

See you never Noobs

If you play like most of those ppl that die in outnumbered videos…Good riddance.

Karolis.you are a thief..

In other word,

it’s always, and will always be the non-thieves classes for dying to thieves.

Share with us, gives us all of your Op stats, than maybe, perhaps, our deaths by you, would be, can be justified.

Ex; If you have, if you hold, all the Keys, to provide, help, support and aide the helpless, why blame and accuse them for being helpless… when you denied, restrict them aide… in the first place?

As the saying goes, " As long you have, you hold, all the controls and have, and hold, all the powers, you have no reason, no justification, for blaming and accusing others for being weak and being vulnerable "

Burnfall.9573:

Karolis.4261:

Masterjalf.4928:

Thieves are OP and they need to be deleted from the game

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8Lh8Oogl6Y

no other class can do that

By the way i unistalled GW2

See you never Noobs

If you play like most of those ppl that die in outnumbered videos…Good riddance.

Karolis.you are a thief..

In other word,

it’s always, and will always be the non-thieves classes for dying to thieves.

Share with us, gives us all of your Op stats, than maybe, perhaps, our deaths by you, would be, can be justified.

Ex; If you have, if you hold, all the Keys, to provide, help, support and aide the helpless, why blame and accuse them for being helpless… when you denied, restrict them aide… in the first place?

As the saying goes, " As long you have, you hold, all the controls and have, and hold, all the powers, you have no reason, no justification, for blaming and accusing others for being weak and being vulnerable "

Burnfall, you’re a troll. Nevertheless I will reply.
This is discussion about heartseeker and its supposedly too high damage, not about a thief class. Fact that i play a thief doesn’t mean that I’m biased in this. I have never used heartseeker as a damage source and never will, nor do I believe that its viable at all to do it, unless on squishy target with <25% HP if he is not in range for backstab.

Burnfall.9573:

Karolis.4261:

Masterjalf.4928:

Thieves are OP and they need to be deleted from the game

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8Lh8Oogl6Y

no other class can do that

By the way i unistalled GW2

See you never Noobs

If you play like most of those ppl that die in outnumbered videos…Good riddance.

Karolis.you are a thief..

In other word,

it’s always, and will always be the non-thieves classes for dying to thieves.

Share with us, gives us all of your Op stats, than maybe, perhaps, our deaths by you, would be, can be justified.

Ex; If you have, if you hold, all the Keys, to provide, help, support and aide the helpless, why blame and accuse them for being helpless… when you denied, restrict them aide… in the first place?

As the saying goes, " As long you have, you hold, all the controls and have, and hold, all the powers, you have no reason, no justification, for blaming and accusing others for being weak and being vulnerable "

I kill dagger thieves both on my sword thief and on other classes all the time. I completely fail to see your point here.