Guild Wars 2

When I encounter thiefs and attack, they simply stealth, hit me once or twice when I can’t see them and I am down. My toons are not glass cannons ( ranger, guardian). I know AOE can help if it hits the area the thief is in. Is one solution to be geared as a glass cannon and try to one shot them first. I am quite frustrated with this mechanic and would appreciate any ideas to counter this.

Marcarus.5012:

When I encounter thiefs and attack, they simply stealth, hit me once or twice when I can’t see them and I am down. My toons are not glass cannons ( ranger, guardian). I know AOE can help if it hits the area the thief is in. Is one solution to be geared as a glass cannon and try to one shot them first. I am quite frustrated with this mechanic and would appreciate any ideas to counter this.

Unlikely that tactic will work.

The current state of stealth has no counter save the ranger skill sic em. The result is a over abundance of players abusing stealth. There is a reason why thief is the most common roamer in wvw.

What happens if a predator is removed from a environment? Its prey has nothing to fear any longer and there becomes a over abundance of them. Stealth is like this in a sense that it has no predator. Therefore you see lots of players utilizing it mindlessly.

The moment Anet introduces a predator for stealth is the moment the thief population will be culled.

Aza.2105:

The moment Anet introduces a predator for stealth is the moment the thief population will be culled.

Maybe because that would actually destroy the class. I’m not sure if you’re aware of this or not, but a large majority of thieves sustain/utility comes from stealth. By reducing the thieves ability to stealth, you’re also reducing their access to almost everything.

As for a ‘counter’, I personally think that’s a little unfair, no? Currently there are no other classes which have their defining class feature countered by a single skill (sic’em). Can I get a skill that destroys all clones/pets in an AOE around me?

Maesk.8753:

Aza.2105:

The moment Anet introduces a predator for stealth is the moment the thief population will be culled.

Maybe because that would actually destroy the class. I’m not sure if you’re aware of this or not, but a large majority of thieves sustain/utility comes from stealth. By reducing the thieves ability to stealth, you’re also reducing their access to almost everything.

As for a ‘counter’, I personally think that’s a little unfair, no? Currently there are no other classes which have their defining class feature countered by a single skill (sic’em). Can I get a skill that destroys all clones/pets in an AOE around me?

A counter isn’t reducing their access to stealth, rather it would force making intelligent choices in regards to when to use stealth. I don’t see how this is a problem, since it exists with the majority of aspects in this game. Stun breakers does not help against being chain stunned, neither does stability. It just gives you a window of opportunity to react.

The thief class is full of exception to the rule mechanics:

1. Only one hard counter to stealth in the game
2. Chill does not affect initiative
3. No hard counter to evade

Maesk.8753:

Aza.2105:

The moment Anet introduces a predator for stealth is the moment the thief population will be culled.

Maybe because that would actually destroy the class. I’m not sure if you’re aware of this or not, but a large majority of thieves sustain/utility comes from stealth. By reducing the thieves ability to stealth, you’re also reducing their access to almost everything.

As for a ‘counter’, I personally think that’s a little unfair, no? Currently there are no other classes which have their defining class feature countered by a single skill (sic’em). Can I get a skill that destroys all clones/pets in an AOE around me?

Can you not kill a rangers pet? Or kill a mesmers clones? Yes you can so it might not be in a single skill AoE(though it might be provided you have enough dps) you can still counter their mechanic. along with sick ‘em you can still stealth after they have used the skill. Just as ranger can swap pets and mesmers can produce more clones. So no single skill that apply revealed will not break your profession. Every profession can have its mechanic countered. Warriors via *everyone’s* dodge button. Elementalist(my profession) via chill or knockdown, along with guardian and necros I believe. And not to sure if engineers can have their’s interrupted. So currently thief mechanic can only be counter by rangers sick ’em or that ridiculously non-intelligent non-usefull trap in WvW. As for me i believe if i hit a thief in stealth he should become revealed because comon sense says if I hit something that is invisible I know it is there along with physics. Unless this game defies physics then i guess anything goes.

As an engineer that abuses stealth as much as I possibly can I am against this nerf to stealth. But I completely agree that it would be fair for combat damage to cause a reveal.

When a thief uses stealth, you have a few options:
1) Use something that protects yourself.
2) Use something that punishes the thief for hitting you.
3) Anticipate a strike while they’re in stealth and dodge.
4) Use an AoE that damages the thief and stand in it.

For example, I’m an elementalist and one thing I like to do is use Shocking Aura. The moment they attack, they get revealed and they get stunned for hitting me, allowing me to attack.

Tom.8029:

When a thief uses stealth, you have a few options:
1) Use something that protects yourself.
2) Use something that punishes the thief for hitting you.
3) Anticipate a strike while they’re in stealth and dodge.
4) Use an AoE that damages the thief and stand in it.

For example, I’m an elementalist and one thing I like to do is use Shocking Aura. The moment they attack, they get revealed and they get stunned for hitting me, allowing me to attack.

Like this guy said, as an engineer I drop a knockback mine.

Tom.8029:

When a thief uses stealth, you have a few options:
1) Use something that protects yourself.
2) Use something that punishes the thief for hitting you.
3) Anticipate a strike while they’re in stealth and dodge.
4) Use an AoE that damages the thief and stand in it.

For example, I’m an elementalist and one thing I like to do is use Shocking Aura. The moment they attack, they get revealed and they get stunned for hitting me, allowing me to attack.

None of these are counters.

How is an effective way of dealing with something not a counter to that something?

If you play rock paper scissors with someone and they keep using rock, a way to deal with that rock is to use paper. Thus paper COUNTERS rock.

Unless you mean something that automatically removes stealth. If you play Ranger, you can use “Sick ’em” to reveal them for 4 seconds. That’s really it, unless you’re in WvW and use a stealth trap. But then you need to build it ahead of time and lure the thief into it. So you have to anticipate a fight with a thief. Most of the time, you won’t see them coming.

Tom.8029:

How is an effective way of dealing with something not a counter to that something?

If you play rock paper scissors with someone and they keep using rock, a way to deal with that rock is to use paper. Thus paper COUNTERS rock.

This is like saying the counter to a character with perma protection is to dps 33% more. A hard counter would be just to strip the buff, which punishes the player. There is a difference.

Oh my god. You’re one of those players that’s going to nit pick at everything someone says, aren’t you? Check my post again, I edited it.

A-Net claimed at launch permanent stealth was to powerful,so they introduced this system where they freely can jump in and out of stealth..this was just one of many brainfarts from the developers..Permanent stealth was never powerful since once the thief/rogue/assassin jumped on you,the stealth was broken and the fight was on…Thiefs are plain silly 1v1 in this game…same goes for mesmers stealth and clones on all dodges,your right..remove stealth from mesmers,redesign thiefs and give elementalists some defensive tools,we are the only casterclass w/o defensive tools…Ohh yes I forgot our broken knockback “gust” that hit 1/10 times.

Tom.8029:

Unless you mean something that automatically removes stealth. If you play Ranger, you can use “Sick ’em” to reveal them for 4 seconds. That’s really it, unless you’re in WvW and use a stealth trap. But then you need to build it ahead of time and lure the thief into it. So you have to anticipate a fight with a thief. Most of the time, you won’t see them coming.

Yes this is what I’m talking about. While stealth trap is a counter, its poor hard counter.

Tom.8029:

When a thief uses stealth, you have a few options:
1) Use something that protects yourself.
2) Use something that punishes the thief for hitting you.
3) Anticipate a strike while they’re in stealth and dodge.
4) Use an AoE that damages the thief and stand in it.

For example, I’m an elementalist and one thing I like to do is use Shocking Aura. The moment they attack, they get revealed and they get stunned for hitting me, allowing me to attack.

Although these are effective means of mitigating a thief’s frontloaded attacks, they can still not be considered specific counters against stealth since I could also use these techniques against other classes that do not utilize stealth.

And pre-emptive usage of these actions if you are aware that a thief is nearby is still playing by the thief’s rules and relies mostly on luck or on the thief’s mistake or lack of experience. I would wait in the shadows if I am a thief until those defensive cooldowns expire and I can happily HS spam on you after a few backstab hits afterwards. Meanwhile, you swing your weapons aimlessly here and there hoping to see a downed thief pop somewhere.

What I want to see is more access to skills like Sic-em for other classes. Skills that limit the ability to stealth or the duration of stealth or reveal stealthed players in an area but at the cost of utilities with cooldowns and such just like how people bring stunbreaks for stuns and CC.

Tom.8029:

When a thief uses stealth, you have a few options:
1) Use something that protects yourself.
2) Use something that punishes the thief for hitting you.
3) Anticipate a strike while they’re in stealth and dodge.
4) Use an AoE that damages the thief and stand in it.

For example, I’m an elementalist and one thing I like to do is use Shocking Aura. The moment they attack, they get revealed and they get stunned for hitting me, allowing me to attack.

1) What if you dont have access to anything that can protect you? and even if you do the duration will not be any where near long enough as the Thief can just keep spamming stealth until your buffs/defence has worn off, thus making it useless.

2) Like what? Again, this is something only FEW classes have and even then, again limited in duration Some classes have blocks, Mesmer has Scepter #2 and a sword block, Engi has shield that stuns, Ele has shield that can stun dunno about warrior, guardian or Ranger – Necro has NONE of these.

3) Just like guessing how long a piece of string is. This is NOT a good counter. This shouldn’t even be considered one. Simply due to how ineffective it is. You could try this 100 times and have it work once, still those other 99 times….

4) So having to carry a specific weapon/skill to counter ONE class. Should it really require that to counter what is clearly a broken mechanic, This would have zero affect on other stealth users such as Mesmer who can be 100% range if they want and have clones and Phantasms remove all the AoE

Or if they are a GOOD thief, they can just keep themselves stealthed (easily done) and then just wait for your Aura to run out and leave you an easy target.

Maesk.8753:

Aza.2105:

The moment Anet introduces a predator for stealth is the moment the thief population will be culled.

Maybe because that would actually destroy the class. I’m not sure if you’re aware of this or not, but a large majority of thieves sustain/utility comes from stealth. By reducing the thieves ability to stealth, you’re also reducing their access to almost everything.

As for a ‘counter’, I personally think that’s a little unfair, no? Currently there are no other classes which have their defining class feature countered by a single skill (sic’em). Can I get a skill that destroys all clones/pets in an AOE around me?

then maybe thieves should learn to use Cavalier or celestial gear try some Actual defensive gear specs and traits Like Every Other Class Does instead of Relying in an exploitable broken mechanic you know play with some actual Skill
as it stands
all it takes for me to kill players is Stealth+steal>Backstab>heartseeker or ridiculously fast auto attack and finish downed player

Rezzet.3614:

then maybe thieves should learn to use Cavalier or celestial gear try some Actual defensive gear specs and traits Like Every Other Class Does instead of Relying in an exploitable broken mechanic you know play with some actual Skill
as it stands
all it takes for me to kill players is Stealth+steal>Backstab>heartseeker or ridiculously fast auto attack and finish downed player

why take defensive traits or gear when you have pretty much the BEST defensive mechanic in the game – Stealth, an utterly broken mechanic along with Initiative which also needs to be adjusted, why is it ONE class gets to have Chill 50% effective on them for? ALL other classes get slowed and skills take longer to cool down, all except Thief…

The shocking Aura is simply a first line of defense, you should always have a back-up plan. If all else fails, that’s why you have dodge. But how do you dodge something you can’t see, you’ll ask. Go play a thief, learn their movements. What would you do in that situation? Then move to react to what they’ll do. But I guess some of it IS luck. But there’s a little aspect of luck in everything. Nothing is ever certain.

defensive stuns/dazes usually last 1 second whereas stealth lasts 3+ seconds

so no i wouldnt call them effective counters or counters at all when thieves can keep spamming #1 while stealthed break your defenses and still land a backstab

Tom.8029:

The shocking Aura is simply a first line of defense, you should always have a back-up plan. If all else fails, that’s why you have dodge. But how do you dodge something you can’t see, you’ll ask. Go play a thief, learn their movements. What would you do in that situation? Then move to react to what they’ll do. But I guess some of it IS luck. But there’s a little aspect of luck in everything. Nothing is ever certain.

“learn there movement” as if EVERY thief walks the same, goes in the same direction, thinks the same, feels the same…Sorry that doesn’t work. Stealth is still insanely overpowered and in need of adjustments.

I love how we’re arguing about an effective way to deal with thieves in stealth and the original poster isn’t even responding. Maybe they haven’t check back yet. But this information is for that person, not you.

When done correctly, the things I have listed can improve your chances of survival against a thief in stealth. A thief can kill someone in a single hit, so how does a second not affect a battle?

Furthermore, we’re talking about how to deal with stealth, not that it is a broken mechanic and should be fixed. There are other threads for that, go complain there.

You guys are just being extremely cynical and quite annoying honestly.
Part of this post are for all of you. I don’t feel like quoting. Marcarus, I hope I helped in some way. Good bye.

Tom.8029:

Furthermore, we’re talking about how to deal with stealth, not that it is a broken mechanic and should be fixed. There are other threads for that, go complain there.

The ONLY people that defend the current stealth mechanics are those that rely on them too much. Tone down stealth so they can’t jump into it every 4 seconds. Tweak there defences and it would be fine

Hell one of my suggestions was simply: Remove the Leap finisher on Heartseeker.

Stealth should be something you have easy access to out of combat but something that you need to time right and use at the right time in combat and NOT “lol, easy stealth, stealth, stealth”

Marcarus.5012:

When I encounter thiefs and attack, they simply stealth, hit me once or twice when I can’t see them and I am down. My toons are not glass cannons ( ranger, guardian). I know AOE can help if it hits the area the thief is in. Is one solution to be geared as a glass cannon and try to one shot them first. I am quite frustrated with this mechanic and would appreciate any ideas to counter this.

Maesk.8753:

Aza.2105:

The moment Anet introduces a predator for stealth is the moment the thief population will be culled.

Maybe because that would actually destroy the class. I’m not sure if you’re aware of this or not, but a large majority of thieves sustain/utility comes from stealth. By reducing the thieves ability to stealth, you’re also reducing their access to almost everything.

Tom.8029:

How is an effective way of dealing with something not a counter to that something?

If you play rock paper scissors with someone and they keep using rock, a way to deal with that rock is to use paper. Thus paper COUNTERS rock.

Unless you mean something that automatically removes stealth. If you play Ranger, you can use “Sick ’em” to reveal them for 4 seconds. That’s really it.

Gallrvaghn.4921:

Tom.8029:

When a thief uses stealth, you have a few options:
1) Use something that protects yourself.
2) Use something that punishes the thief for hitting you.
3) Anticipate a strike while they’re in stealth and dodge.
4) Use an AoE that damages the thief and stand in it.

Although these are effective means of mitigating a thief’s frontloaded attacks, they can still not be considered specific counters against stealth since I could also use these techniques against other classes that do not utilize stealth.

And pre-emptive usage of these actions if you are aware that a thief is nearby is still playing by the thief’s rules and relies mostly on luck or on the thief’s mistake or lack of experience.

Tom.8029:

Furthermore, we’re talking about how to deal with stealth, not that it is a broken mechanic and should be fixed. There are other threads for that, go complain there.

You guys are just being extremely cynical and quite annoying honestly.
Part of this post are for all of you. I don’t feel like quoting. Marcarus, I hope I helped in some way. Good bye.

Looking over this thread it’s clear that there are entirely too many people having knee jerk reactions to stealth, whether on one side (to have more counters) or the other (react and counter). There’s a reason for this, and the reason is this:

Stealth may be fun to play with, but it is unfun to play AGAINST.

@Tom.8029: Would you not agree that your list of things to do when an opponent enters Stealth are soft counters at best, and that you yourself have acknowledged that the only “hard counter” is Ranger’s Sic’em? (Let’s talk PvX here, and presume that revealing traps are not available in S/TPVP)

Stealth is unfun to play against because:

• It puts the burden of skill on the defender (By that, I mean that whatever you do, is playing on the Thief/Mesmer/Engineer’s terms when they enter Stealth)
• For thieves in particular, Stealth openers are impossible to punish and are especially frustrating on the receiving end
• For everyone else, losing your target and then being unable to read your stealthed opponent’s animations can be devastating in a game where lots of gameplay is centred around reading animations

Note that I haven’t passed judgement on Stealth one way or another. But this thread highlights a 2 particular problems with Stealth in its current implementation:

1. Only 1 class (!!!) out of 8 has a hard counter to Stealth (Ranger Sic’ em)
2. Stealth, put simply, is annoying at best, and frustrating at worst, to fight against. (PU Mesmer and “permastealth” Thief in particular)

The answer to this would therefore be to distribute more Stealth hard counter utilities to all the classes (Including Thief). If Stealth is to be a mechanic, just as Protection, or Blocks, or Aegis, or Invulnerabilities, then more skills should interact with the mechanic outside of Thief – even if Thief is the one that derives the most utility and survivability from Stealth.

The second problem is significantly more difficult to attack.

How does one make Stealth – by definition a mechanic of obfuscation – fun to play against? I’ll leave some of that for you to answer, Tom.8029

Rezzet.3614:

defensive stuns/dazes usually last 1 second whereas stealth lasts 3+ seconds

so no i wouldnt call them effective counters or counters at all when thieves can keep spamming #1 while stealthed break your defenses and still land a backstab

I’d just like to point out this post in particular that I feel highlight most player’s frustrations when fighting a Thief that uses Stealth and Stealth openers.

In my opinion Thief stealth openers are up there with the most toxic plays in game, along with Warrior Healing Signet, Necro Signet of Spite, PU Mesmer and full GC, all-in, Fresh Air S/x Elementalist – these builds all have little to no counterplay to them, and fighting them is all too often a binary question of whether one has the correct build or worse, profession or not at the time. It’s a game of rock-paper-scissors and leaves the burden of skill entirely out of the equation.

The proposals I’ve seen for introducing counterplay and actual thought to Stealth and Stealth openers so far are:

1. Making failed Backstabs reduce a 0.5-1 second of the duration of Stealth (Probably the most straightforward, puts burden of skill more on Thief, but doesn’t address the frustration of playing against Stealth openers)
2. Adding another soft counter to Stealth by making damage inflict Revealed (Favours AOE heavy classes like Staff Necro, Engineer and again, leaves certain classes out in the cold like non-Staff/GS Mesmer)
3. Making finishers in Light Fields inflict Revealed (Again, makes Guardian a Thief hard counter)
4. Making certain combos that allow Thief to enter Stealth outside of Utilities impossible (i.e. removing Leap finisher on Heartseeker OR making the damage of Heartseeker apply BEFORE Stealth so if Thief hits, it is Revealed)
5. Making Backstabs on Block or Aegis Reveal the Thief (I don’t like this because it literally turns Guardian into a Thief hard counter while leaving most other classes out in the cold)
6. Reworking the Stealth opener concept, buffing Thief survivability outside of Stealth (The most open-ended and non-constructive proposal I’ve seen, because it’s almost never followed up with concrete ideas)

The fact that so many proposals exist all along different lines is a clear indicator that Stealth is a mechanic that has been poorly implemented, and with the resurgence of Thieves in PvP (First S/D, now D/P) and the ongoing “problem” of an excess of Thief roamers in WvW, it’s a issue that needs to be looked at sooner rather than later.

I will never understand the crying over stealth. Thieves are so squishy. Without stealth they would be free kills.

Whenever a thief attacks me on my Necro I just pop DS, which weakens him, bleeds him, hits him with damage… I can then insta fear him, or root him, or if he stealths again I can spam an AE damage attack.

Seriously, just having locust swarm up and auto attacking with dagger is enough to drop most thieves.

I am not saying thieves arent powerful, they can put out some great burst. But the thing is, they are so squishy. It takes a lot of skill to own people with a thief, it is a high risk high reward profession… not like a warrior, necro, or guardian.

Here is my two cents:

1) Allows aoe hits or some conditions to apply revealed

• If I set a thief on fire… how in the world can they hope to hide? (It would also be interesting to give a % fail to stealth if they were confused?)

2) if a thief uses an attack skill in stealth they are revealed whether it hits or not (this would do an number to certain uses of heat seeker)

3) OR (all would be a very hard nerf). disallow stealth stacking (just refresh it)/ apply revealed whenever leaving stealth while in combat (I do not mind perma stealth for moving along the map, or running through mobs, just once you pick a fight, you have to finish it). This way rogues get 3-4 seconds of stealth to get the first hit, or reposition but after that, other players get 3-4 seconds to hit them back.

what I also really want to prevent are thieves that run away in stealth. Most of the counters mentioned assume that the thief presses the attack, but how many times have you had a thief run away in stealth only to return 20 seconds later to restart the match, then if they start to lose again, guess what they do next?

No class should get the fight reset button (anyone remember the dual dagger Elementalist’s and the nerfs to ride the lightning?), and as long as thieves get near perma stealth they will have it. Also remember thief skills are driven off of initiative and not cool downs, so not only do they get the ability to restart a fight, but in that time all of their skills are fresh.

Personally I opt for certain conditions to apply revealed like burning or torment, or at least if a thief takes damage in stealth they should pop out (this way the there will be a certain risk element). I am really against certain skills counter other builds (how many Mesmers would be annoyed if the Guardian got a true sight skill that dispelled clones, even if it was on a lackluster skill on a 40 second cool down).

I also think an overhaul like this should be tested out in the PvP environment first and followed by WvW. I do not see any reason to nerf stealth in PvE (which is actually much harder than those thieves make it appear, since stealth in PvE is not a huge advantage).

Tangential two cents

My personal choice would be for any attack that hits a thief in stealth applies revealed (I think if nothing else this will remove a huge annoyance factor of stealth when you swingly blindly), but we will just have to wait and see what Anet does.

I highly suspect that there is a stealth nerf in the works (sic em and the anti-stealth trap is a good example of them toying with different ideas). I just hope that whatever measures Anet chooses that it does not hit the thieves too hard (and that they do not make it rock, paper, scissors, but that all classes have access to things that counter stealth often enough to make things interesting).

Well in WvW stealth is to strong and should be nerfed in some way, but in spvp i dont think its an big issue.

And stx i dont think thieves are a high risk high reward profession, as stealth allows a safe way to disengage unfavorable situations. It is more like most thieves are overestimating the abilities and then simple die.

Tom.8029:

When a thief uses stealth, you have a few options:
1) Use something that protects yourself.
2) Use something that punishes the thief for hitting you.
3) Anticipate a strike while they’re in stealth and dodge.
4) Use an AoE that damages the thief and stand in it.

For example, I’m an elementalist and one thing I like to do is use Shocking Aura. The moment they attack, they get revealed and they get stunned for hitting me, allowing me to attack.

Sorry to inform you but if you dodge a thieves attack while he is in stealth he stays in stealth which I think is not correct but A-net believe that is the right mechanic

Muchacho.2390:

Well in WvW stealth is to strong and should be nerfed in some way, but in spvp i dont think its an big issue.

And stx i dont think thieves are a high risk high reward profession, as stealth allows a safe way to disengage unfavorable situations. It is more like most thieves are overestimating the abilities and then simple die.

Thieves have almost no use in zerg play. They can try and spike down people on the sides, but thats usually met with chain cc and said thief’s death.

Besides the necromancer and maybe the guardian, what roamer isn’t prepared to disengage from a fight? Rangers and warriors will bring the greatsword which is fantastic mobility on both class. Mesmer too can steath and run from a fight, or portal if they are really desperate. Engineers have plenty of CC and immobilize or chill plus rocketboots. Even guardians can spec meditations and fly away from fights.

The thief is all about HR/HR. Thieves have steath and evades to defend themselves, unless they have Lyssa runes, but those need to be nerfed in general. Start nerfing stealth, and the thief is pretty much a free bag in wvw. Yes it can be annoying, but so is the zone control that engie has, or the clone spam of mesmers, or the ridiculous tankiness of guardian and warriors. There are plenty of annoying aspect in ever class that EVERYBODY uses.

If ANet gives hard counters to thief’s stealth, then they better make some for other class mechanics as well: A skill called that keeps mesmers from spawning illusions, or one that keeps engineers from using kits or turrets, or keeps warriors from building adrenaline (soothing images:D:D:D:D).

I’m tired of having to fight through DS on necros. Its annoying and toxic and shouldn’t be in the game. They already have plenty of conditions plus annoying minions that keep getting in the way, they can even disengage from a fight with flesh wurm or spectral walk. ANet should nerf DS by 50% so its at least manageable and not a crutch when they already have the highest HP pool in the game. (Sarcasm)

Stx.4857:

I will never understand the crying over stealth. Thieves are so squishy. Without stealth they would be free kills.

Whenever a thief attacks me on my Necro I just pop DS, which weakens him, bleeds him, hits him with damage… I can then insta fear him, or root him, or if he stealths again I can spam an AE damage attack.

Seriously, just having locust swarm up and auto attacking with dagger is enough to drop most thieves.

I am not saying thieves arent powerful, they can put out some great burst. But the thing is, they are so squishy. It takes a lot of skill to own people with a thief, it is a high risk high reward profession… not like a warrior, necro, or guardian.

Thats because thiefs have no access to evades, powerful blind skills, shadowsteps, teleports and stunbreakers on weapon-skills right?

Were not talking about the bad thiefs that get killed by your necro (lol @ that).
We are talking about the gamefun killing broken mechanic that complete ruins small-scall fighting in wvw.

The most annoying thing ist thiss stealth rez-madness which makes it almost impossible to win outnumbered situations no matter how bad the bunch of mesmers+thiefs play….

Kontrolle.3514:

Thats because thiefs have no access to evades, powerful blind skills, shadowsteps, teleports and stunbreakers on weapon-skills right?

Were not talking about the bad thiefs that get killed by your necro (lol @ that).
We are talking about the gamefun killing broken mechanic that complete ruins small-scall fighting in wvw.

The most annoying thing ist thiss stealth rez-madness which makes it almost impossible to win outnumbered situations no matter how bad the bunch of mesmers+thiefs play….

D/D: #3 evade, traited blind on #5
D/P : #3 shadowstep + 3 sec blind, #5 blind field
P/P: #5 blind field
S/D: #2 shadowstep + 1 condition clean, #3 evade, traited blind on #5
S/P:#2 shadowstep + 1 condition clean, #3 evade, #5 blind field
SB: #2 evade, #5 blind + shadowstep

There are NO stunbreakers on thief weapon skills. These skills all cost 5+ initiative other than death blossom and disabling shot. That 5 of our 12 initiative which refills at a decent 1 per 1 second. Out of initiative, well we can’t use ANY of our weapons skills, not even if we weapons swap.

Blinding power, the x/p #5 skill, has such a small AoE, you can be melee d even if you stand in the center, its that small, and if you’re fighting in that, then you kinda deserve to lose. Its like standing in a d/d ele’s ring of fire and complaining you got hit with a 8k firegrab.

Plenty of things ruin small skirmishes in WvW: Condition spam necros with DS, HS warriors, tanky guardians, engineers in general. If you’re complaining about downing a character, and them being rezzed again, that is 100% on your head. They shadow refuge, then AoE the kitten out of that thing, most roaming classes aren’t prepared so such steady damage. Fighting outnumbered is asking for trouble unless you’re prepared, and if you can’t manage your targets well enough that some sneak in rezzes, then bring in some guild mates and roam with them. 100% l2p issue.

Stx.4857:

I will never understand the crying over stealth. Thieves are so squishy. Without stealth they would be free kills.

With stealth they roam around picking targets and racking up free kills. There’s a reason almost all roamers are thieves and use zerker gear. Stealth is the ultimate defense mechanism.

As much as I hate to say it, Kontrolle, down state control in both PvP and WvW is part of the game and it will stay that way for 1vX as long as down state exists. Fighting outnumbered, it’s understandably frustrating when you down an opponent only for an intervening Shadow Refuge, but again, it’s something that you need to play around.

One thing that really gets me about Stealth is why Thieves are so hung up on Stealth being their “only survival mechanic”. Or Evade frames being the “only survival mechanic” of S/D Thieves. Or Shadowstep being the “only survival mechanic” because otherwise Thieves would instantly die when stuck in a protracted skirmish. It’s Special Pleading at its worst, and of any discussion regarding any individual profession, I don’t think I’ve seen so much of it except on Thief.

When Arenanet released the gameplay previews of Thief way back when, and their Initiative system bypassing the whole mechanic of Cooldowns being Energy for GW2, I remember thinking to myself, “This class is either going to be garbage, or ridiculously OP, and never in between”. So far, Arenanet has avoided the worst of it, but we cannot deny the days of Quickness Thieves providing the most frustrating one-shot mechanics in the game before it was nerfed into the ground.

It’s clear to me at least, that the Stealth mechanic was entirely too rushed when designing the classes aside from Thief. Too few mechanics and traits interact with Stealth, and Stealth remains one of the few “buffs” with a black border instead of following the Golden Chevrons for boons and Red Chevrons for conditions – that is, it plays by its own rules outside of the Boon and Condition interplay mechanic.

An idea I had of introducing more interplay between Stealth and other skills – all without having to design new skills – would be to turn Stealth into a boon, and making it such that there was a maximum duration. Say, 5-10 seconds? In order to prevent Stealth stacking by Blasting in Smoke fields for too long.

It would immediately render Stealth vulnerable to Boon Hate mechanics like Well of Corruption, or Destruction of the Empowered or Engineer Throw Mine. Unfortunately the Boon Hate mechanic is woefully underdeveloped on classes like Elementalist and Ranger, but that’s okay, because Boon Hate mechanics can also be introduced to those classes through existing skills as well, similar to Thief.

There will be, however, unintended consequences:

• Well Necros will become an incredible threat to Stealth Thieves. Attacking a Necro through DS as Thief will become even more difficult.
• Mesmers, especially, running GS/Staff will have an incredible toolbox to counter stealth while it is already one of the “Meta” builds. But buffing Boon removal on Mesmer’s other Weapon sets could also introduce new imbalances.
• Methods of gaining Boons for Thief such as Lyssa Runes will become further entrenched in the list of “viable” builds for Thief to “cover” Stealth, which will limit build variety

In the end there is no easy answer for “fixing” stealth. But a Fix is necessary.

One thing is clear, though. Thief can no longer be seen in the eyes of Arenanet’s designers as being the sole interactor with Stealth. Thief reliance on Stealth, Thief Stealth openers, and the Stealth mechanic breeds nothing but frustration for players on the receiving end, and senseless nerfs for Thief that cripple it in other ways and further entrench the importance for Stealth in Thief survival.

I am of the opinion that Thief’kitten-and-run playstyle can be retained, even if the role of Stealth were diminished for Thief. Jumper’s S/D innovation is proof enough that Thief can be played without Stealth. Guild Wars 1 is proof enough that even Teleports could be balanced. Altering the way Stealth interacts with Thief will be the first step on the way to make it fun to play and fun to play against.

Gallrvaghn.4921:

Stx.4857:

I will never understand the crying over stealth. Thieves are so squishy. Without stealth they would be free kills.

With stealth they roam around picking targets and racking up free kills. There’s a reason almost all roamers are thieves and use zerker gear. Stealth is the ultimate defense mechanism.

Not to mention the way A-net designed its also the ultimate burst mechanic at the same time.

It has been mentioned that thieves are great at running away when things aren’t going their way and countered that almost all classes have fantastic escape abilities.
kitten that kitten.
The only class that has anywhere near as much escape abilities as thief is the mesmer and it isn’t even close.
I frequently solo roam and the most disappointing thing I have frequently encountered is outskilling a thief that then runs out of my range and ability to catch which then tails me until their friend arrives.
I have used stealth escapes and they are awesome but they are in no way fair. To be able to leave a fight at nearly any time with the fantastic mobility they have leaves it impossible for me to catch them.

Tl;dr I hate thieves nerf them please QQ

Your mistake is trying to meet the problem head on.

Gallrvaghn.4921:

Stx.4857:

I will never understand the crying over stealth. Thieves are so squishy. Without stealth they would be free kills.

With stealth they roam around picking targets and racking up free kills. There’s a reason almost all roamers are thieves and use zerker gear. Stealth is the ultimate defense mechanism.

I disagree. When I roam in small groups of five or less, thieves are probably the easiest profession to kill. They usually only have one or maybe two stunbreakers, and then one good CC and they are down. Sometimes you dont even need to CC them to kill them if they are zerkers, just high damage AE attacks and the only way for them to escape is to blow shadowstep(50 sec cd).

Yes zerker thief burst is high, but a lot of the time it is avoidable, and your counterattack will hurt them even more. If you are just dying from one or two hits then I don’t know what to tell you… it has never really been an issue for me.

Usually if a thief kills me, I know that I messed up and he outplayed me. Most thieves I eat for breakfast and still have enough cooldowns up for lunch and dinner.

Let me also say that I totally agree that stealth in this game is horribly designed. I just don’t agree with all the crying over it, because stealth is a thiefs only life support in large battles. Evade builds are more suited to 1v1 or smaller fights.

Is stealth seriously still a topic of debate? I suppose people will only stop complaining when Thieves are only given one skill on their bar, and it immediately kills them on use.

Thieves do not have access to block or invulnerability. They have no way of mitigating damage except to avoid it—which, in the way this game is designed, is done with either stealth or evasion. To provide a hard counter to stealth is to counter the entire Shadow Arts traitline, and the benefits therein. This has been discussed ad nauseum.

You can counter stealth indirectly by using active defense and proactive play, as has been the case since betas: with traps, wells, and other ground-based effects; aoe damage; blocking; invulnerability; channeled skills (which continue to hit after they have stealthed, revealing their position); condition damage; immobilize; daze; stun (or stunbreaks, as the case may be); and dodging. All of these can prevent a Thief from entering stealth, down a Thief during stealth, and/or prevent a stealth spike.

Protip: if you’re swinging your weapon at the empty space where you think a Thief could be, and your autoattack chain procs to the next skill, you’ve found them. Keep swinging.

Gallrvaghn.4921:

Stx.4857:

I will never understand the crying over stealth. Thieves are so squishy. Without stealth they would be free kills.

With stealth they roam around picking targets and racking up free kills. There’s a reason almost all roamers are thieves and use zerker gear. Stealth is the ultimate defense mechanism.

And without it they are just loot bags.

In all honesty stealth is game breaking for its ability to break target which no other skills can do.

@Imagi, @Zacchary;
No-one denies that there are soft-counters to stealth, such as chain skills advancing, or active defense. The fact remains that there is little interplay for classes outside of Thief regarding the Stealth mechanic, which is why there is so much QQ regarding Thieves, and why Thief receives a nerf every patch.

Personally, I’d like to see some changes to Thief as per Jumper’s List and to see where it goes from there; if only to see Thieves hitting more than 2 buttons out of their weapon set most of the time.

Zacchary.6183:

Gallrvaghn.4921:

Stx.4857:

I will never understand the crying over stealth. Thieves are so squishy. Without stealth they would be free kills.

With stealth they roam around picking targets and racking up free kills. There’s a reason almost all roamers are thieves and use zerker gear. Stealth is the ultimate defense mechanism.

And without it they are just loot bags.

With regards to Thief being just “loot bags without stealth” that is clearly untrue given the existence of Sword/Dagger Evade Thief. I also challenge you to say that fighting a “permastealth” Thief in WvW isn’t an exercise in frustration – either you don’t see them opening up on you and they win an easy fight, or they lose and Stealth away. In what way does that make engaging gameplay, or put the burden of skill on offense and defense on equal ground?

Again, the hue and cry of “Thief needs Stealth to survive” is Special Pleading . L2P doesn’t figure into it, “Active defense” doesn’t figure into it, Stealth being “Thief’s class mechanic” doesn’t figure into it.

Thief just isn’t fun to play against; and the first step to make it so is to make Stealth interact more with the other classes.

MonMalthias.4763:

Thief just isn’t fun to play against; and the first step to make it so is to make Stealth interact more with the other classes.

Okay, but see this is just an opinion. I personally think thieves are fun to play against, because they are so kitten squishy. Yes it sucks when they escape, but that is part of their class… they are shady kittens.

Every class has mechanics that are not fun to fight against. I find it very unfun that Guardians can chain aegis with immunities, blinds, dodges, and negate tons of my attacks. I find it very unfun that Warriors can stun and knock me down every few seconds. I find it very unfun that Engineers can fart out bombs and grenades every few seconds and kill me without even targetting me as long as I try to contest a point.

Stx.4857:

MonMalthias.4763:

Thief just isn’t fun to play against; and the first step to make it so is to make Stealth interact more with the other classes.

Okay, but see this is just an opinion. I personally think thieves are fun to play against, because they are so kitten squishy. Yes it sucks when they escape, but that is part of their class… they are shady kittens.

Every class has mechanics that are not fun to fight against. I find it very unfun that Guardians can chain aegis with immunities, blinds, dodges, and negate tons of my attacks. I find it very unfun that Warriors can stun and knock me down every few seconds. I find it very unfun that Engineers can fart out bombs and grenades every few seconds and kill me without even targetting me as long as I try to contest a point.

Except all those mechanics can be countered and played against. Stealth cannot be countered which is the topic of this post and that stands true.

MonMalthias.4763:

stuff

And mesmers and their confusion (sometimes daze) spam was not fun to play against… until I played one. Then they were very fun to fight.

Likewise with every profession (including thief), you will have more fun fighting them by learning about them through firsthand experience.

But the “Thief needs stealth to survive” argument is still valid.

First off, our best line is Shadow Arts because most of the profession’s damage mitigation is in it. Every stealth based trait in SA, save Hidden Assassin, either directly or indirectly affects survivability. You could not get the same level of survivability from Acrobatics because it does not give as much access to healing and condition removal.

Secondly, evades can fail. Most of our evades which come from our weapon skills do not last the entire animation. Add to the fact that they are highly telegraphed, evasion skills are not enough.

So to put it into perspective: thieves, with their naturally low health and armor, poor healing, lack of defensive boons, competitive condition cleanse and general damage mitigation thieves have to rely on timed evades and the target/visual break of stealth to avoid damage (damage avoidance).

Thieves can’t cleanse damaging conditions or heal as well as other professions. So to survive on one, they must avoid getting hit by any attack as much as they possibly can. Otherwise, the conditions will melt them and the direct damage will make them explode.

Zacchary.6183:

MonMalthias.4763:

stuff

And mesmers and their confusion (sometimes daze) spam was not fun to play against… until I played one. Then they were very fun to fight.

Likewise with every profession (including thief), you will have more fun fighting them by learning about them through firsthand experience.

But the “Thief needs stealth to survive” argument is still valid.

First off, our best line is Shadow Arts because most of the profession’s damage mitigation is in it. Every stealth based trait in SA, save Hidden Assassin, either directly or indirectly affects survivability. You could not get the same level of survivability from Acrobatics because it does not give as much access to healing and condition removal.

Secondly, evades can fail. Most of our evades which come from our weapon skills do not last the entire animation. Add to the fact that they are highly telegraphed, evasion skills are not enough.

So to put it into perspective: thieves, with their naturally low health and armor, poor healing, lack of defensive boons, competitive condition cleanse and general damage mitigation thieves have to rely on timed evades and the target/visual break of stealth to avoid damage (damage avoidance).

Thieves can’t cleanse damaging conditions or heal as well as other professions. So to survive on one, they must avoid getting hit by any attack as much as they possibly can. Otherwise, the conditions will melt them and the direct damage will make them explode.

There is nothing difficult or challenging about using stealth.
No one is saying get rid of stealth it could be a fun mechanic if it worked better with other parts of the game.
All skills are televised, that is a large part of the game. Complaining that people can see your skills and can then act accordingly is not a valid complaint.
Thieves have decent condition removal.
A build is as squishy as you want it to be.

Stillshade.7634:

Stx.4857:

MonMalthias.4763:

Thief just isn’t fun to play against; and the first step to make it so is to make Stealth interact more with the other classes.

Okay, but see this is just an opinion. I personally think thieves are fun to play against, because they are so kitten squishy. Yes it sucks when they escape, but that is part of their class… they are shady kittens.

Every class has mechanics that are not fun to fight against. I find it very unfun that Guardians can chain aegis with immunities, blinds, dodges, and negate tons of my attacks. I find it very unfun that Warriors can stun and knock me down every few seconds. I find it very unfun that Engineers can fart out bombs and grenades every few seconds and kill me without even targetting me as long as I try to contest a point.

Except all those mechanics can be countered and played against. Stealth cannot be countered which is the topic of this post and that stands true.

Blatantly false statement. You can counter Shadow Refuge, you can counter cloak and dagger, you can counter black powder>Heartseeker spam.

The only ways a thief can stealth with no way to stop him is with blinding powder(40 sec cd), or with a trait that auto stealths. If you are referring to these methods as having no counters, then I would also argue that many other professions have no counters to their defense mechanisms because you cannot prevent them from casting them.

Sometimes you just cant stop a thief from stealthing, sometimes you just cant stop a Guardian from healing to full, life sucks.

Stx.4857:

Stillshade.7634:

Stx.4857:

MonMalthias.4763:

Thief just isn’t fun to play against; and the first step to make it so is to make Stealth interact more with the other classes.

Okay, but see this is just an opinion. I personally think thieves are fun to play against, because they are so kitten squishy. Yes it sucks when they escape, but that is part of their class… they are shady kittens.

Every class has mechanics that are not fun to fight against. I find it very unfun that Guardians can chain aegis with immunities, blinds, dodges, and negate tons of my attacks. I find it very unfun that Warriors can stun and knock me down every few seconds. I find it very unfun that Engineers can fart out bombs and grenades every few seconds and kill me without even targetting me as long as I try to contest a point.

Except all those mechanics can be countered and played against. Stealth cannot be countered which is the topic of this post and that stands true.

Blatantly false statement. You can counter Shadow Refuge, you can counter cloak and dagger, you can counter black powder>Heartseeker spam.

The only ways a thief can stealth with no way to stop him is with blinding powder(40 sec cd), or with a trait that auto stealths. If you are referring to these methods as having no counters, then I would also argue that many other professions have no counters to their defense mechanisms because you cannot prevent them from casting them.

Sometimes you just cant stop a thief from stealthing, sometimes you just cant stop a Guardian from healing to full, life sucks.

This has been discussed and those are only soft counters. There is nothing that truly works against stealth except mindless aoe which is unreliable.

For every other class gaining survivability means sacrificing damage.
Relying on stealth for survivability does not hinder damage output and instead helps it.

Edit: At least from a wvw standpoint

Stillshade.7634:

Stx.4857:

Stillshade.7634:

Stx.4857:

MonMalthias.4763:

Thief just isn’t fun to play against; and the first step to make it so is to make Stealth interact more with the other classes.

Okay, but see this is just an opinion. I personally think thieves are fun to play against, because they are so kitten squishy. Yes it sucks when they escape, but that is part of their class… they are shady kittens.

Every class has mechanics that are not fun to fight against. I find it very unfun that Guardians can chain aegis with immunities, blinds, dodges, and negate tons of my attacks. I find it very unfun that Warriors can stun and knock me down every few seconds. I find it very unfun that Engineers can fart out bombs and grenades every few seconds and kill me without even targetting me as long as I try to contest a point.

Except all those mechanics can be countered and played against. Stealth cannot be countered which is the topic of this post and that stands true.

Blatantly false statement. You can counter Shadow Refuge, you can counter cloak and dagger, you can counter black powder>Heartseeker spam.

The only ways a thief can stealth with no way to stop him is with blinding powder(40 sec cd), or with a trait that auto stealths. If you are referring to these methods as having no counters, then I would also argue that many other professions have no counters to their defense mechanisms because you cannot prevent them from casting them.

Sometimes you just cant stop a thief from stealthing, sometimes you just cant stop a Guardian from healing to full, life sucks.

This has been discussed and those are only soft counters. There is nothing that truly works against stealth except mindless aoe which is unreliable.

Oh so now stealth has soft counters instead of no counters? I see…

I am not sure what you people want. I mean I can’t stop a Guardian from going immune to damage and healing, I can’t stop an engie from swapping kits, or an ele from swapping attunements. I can’t stop a Necro from entering Deathshroud, or a Mesmer from popping out clones. Why is it so necessary to hardcounter a thief from going into stealth? Just because its annoying to fight against? Because thieves escape from combat easier? Great reasons.