Guild Wars 2

Stillshade.7634:

For every other class gaining survivability means sacrificing damage.
Relying on stealth for survivability does not hinder damage output and instead helps it.

For thieves to deal such high damage they need to be in zerker gear which means 11k HP and no armor. Even balanced thief builds only have like 15k HP and 2400 armor(these deal significantly less damage). Stealth is great, but when you can die in one or two hits, or just random AE damage, you start to see why it is so necessary to have it.

If you want a class that doesn’t need to make trade-offs, look to the Warrior. Highest baseline HP, armor, crazy HP regen, and can keep up might and fury all the time. Most classes need to give up zerker and go almost full soldier to get what Warriors start with.

Why is everyone so fixated on seeing something happen? if you know they’re there, and it’s coming prepare for it. If you see a thief Stealth, you know what’s gonna happen, Back Stab, Sneak Attack, or Tactical Strike depending on the weapon they use. Stealth lasts 3-4 seconds at any one application, you can make it longer by chaining a stealth utility, leap through a smoke field or blast a smoke field. Those Skills have a visual representation and are fairly easy to tell apart if you know thief skills at all.

There is a tell that a thief is going to use a stealth attack he only has 3-4 seconds to do it, count to Two in your head, start a defensive skill that lasts 2-3 seconds, unless you see a little red black powder circle, you’ll have the thief drop out of stealth since your defensive skill lasts long enough for the 3-4 seconds to be up. At this point you need to remember to dodge the CnD, if you do the thief has almost no initiative left. and he’ll use a utility stealth, great you used one of your CD skills and a dodge. The thief has used a CD skill and lost the advantage of surprise.

Now on to what happens if you see a little red black powder circle:

• stand in the black powder while the Thief tries to Leap through it (not the best choice but it works, you will have to kill the blind with an auto attack)
• keep moving, make it so your character turns around so it’s very hard for a thief to actually hit your back. Strafing and about face bound on your keyboard works well and frustrates many thieves.
• DO NOT start running away unless you have a teleport or something similar to a warrior GS 5.

ArmageddonAsh.6430

2) Like what? Again, this is something only FEW classes have and even then, again limited in duration Some classes have blocks, Mesmer has Scepter #2 and a sword block, Engi has shield that stuns, Ele has shield that can stun dunno about warrior, guardian or Ranger – Necro has NONE of these.

Warriors have: Shield 5, Endure Pain active and at 25% health, off-hand Sword 5 block, Great sword 5 or sword 2 away from the combat area to gain some distance, count to two and hit hammer 4 generally will knock away a thief.

Guardians have: Shelter, Aegis passive, hit F3 to get Aegis again, multiple ways of getting protection, Renewed Focus, Shelter, Focus 5, Hammer 5 and staff 5 running over the cc lines, count to Two and a half use shield 5, Mace 3, Judges Intervention away.

Rangers have: Great sword 4 it works really well against a thief, Traited Signet of Stone, protection on dodge will mitigate a huge burst into a small one.

Necromancers have: Staff 5 and stand in it, or any mark. Most thieves worth their salt will dodge through the mark, your que to dodge too or hit Death Shroud with IV (Weakening Shroud) in Curses. have you tried standing on or continually running through a Spectral Wall? the protection buff works very well and has a chance to fear the thief away from you. Well of darkness is very good at stopping the melee Stealth attacks several times if you stand in it.

does this counter a thief well enough for you?

Stx.4857:

Stillshade.7634:

Stx.4857:

Stillshade.7634:

Stx.4857:

MonMalthias.4763:

Thief just isn’t fun to play against; and the first step to make it so is to make Stealth interact more with the other classes.

Okay, but see this is just an opinion. I personally think thieves are fun to play against, because they are so kitten squishy. Yes it sucks when they escape, but that is part of their class… they are shady kittens.

Every class has mechanics that are not fun to fight against. I find it very unfun that Guardians can chain aegis with immunities, blinds, dodges, and negate tons of my attacks. I find it very unfun that Warriors can stun and knock me down every few seconds. I find it very unfun that Engineers can fart out bombs and grenades every few seconds and kill me without even targetting me as long as I try to contest a point.

Except all those mechanics can be countered and played against. Stealth cannot be countered which is the topic of this post and that stands true.

Blatantly false statement. You can counter Shadow Refuge, you can counter cloak and dagger, you can counter black powder>Heartseeker spam.

The only ways a thief can stealth with no way to stop him is with blinding powder(40 sec cd), or with a trait that auto stealths. If you are referring to these methods as having no counters, then I would also argue that many other professions have no counters to their defense mechanisms because you cannot prevent them from casting them.

Sometimes you just cant stop a thief from stealthing, sometimes you just cant stop a Guardian from healing to full, life sucks.

This has been discussed and those are only soft counters. There is nothing that truly works against stealth except mindless aoe which is unreliable.

Oh so now stealth has soft counters instead of no counters? I see…

I am not sure what you people want. I mean I can’t stop a Guardian from going immune to damage and healing, I can’t stop an engie from swapping kits, or an ele from swapping attunements. I can’t stop a Necro from entering Deathshroud, or a Mesmer from popping out clones. Why is it so necessary to hardcounter a thief from going into stealth? Just because its annoying to fight against? Because thieves escape from combat easier? Great reasons.

Guardians have low mobility and long cds, engineers and eles don’t have 2 weapons sets so they rely on kits/attunements, necros have the worst stability and movement abilites of any class, mesmers are almost solely reliant on clones and phantasms for damage and distraction, thieves have initiative which means their attacks don’t have cds

Why are you so against a nerf to stealth? It is not the sole identifier of the thief class. It is not what makes a thief unique. Yes thieves have the most access to it. And yes it is broken as kitten which this thread is trying to address by finding a way to make it more reactive with the rest of the game.

In a game where each element is made to work together stealth sits there not fitting in. It is an effective tool but doesn’t make sense in the whole boon/condition scene and doesn’t have synergy with other abilities in the game.

Stealth really is interesting and fun to use but when I see a thief stealth near me it would be nicer to have a different option than sit on a mine and hope they go away.

Lyrsen.6702:

Why is everyone so fixated on seeing something happen? if you know they’re there, and it’s coming prepare for it. If you see a thief Stealth, you know what’s gonna happen, Back Stab, Sneak Attack, or Tactical Strike depending on the weapon they use. Stealth lasts 3-4 seconds at any one application, you can make it longer by chaining a stealth utility, leap through a smoke field or blast a smoke field. Those Skills have a visual representation and are fairly easy to tell apart if you know thief skills at all.

There is a tell that a thief is going to use a stealth attack he only has 3-4 seconds to do it, count to Two in your head, start a defensive skill that lasts 2-3 seconds, unless you see a little red black powder circle, you’ll have the thief drop out of stealth since your defensive skill lasts long enough for the 3-4 seconds to be up. At this point you need to remember to dodge the CnD, if you do the thief has almost no initiative left. and he’ll use a utility stealth, great you used one of your CD skills and a dodge. The thief has used a CD skill and lost the advantage of surprise.

Now on to what happens if you see a little red black powder circle:

• stand in the black powder while the Thief tries to Leap through it (not the best choice but it works, you will have to kill the blind with an auto attack)
• keep moving, make it so your character turns around so it’s very hard for a thief to actually hit your back. Strafing and about face bound on your keyboard works well and frustrates many thieves.
• DO NOT start running away unless you have a teleport or something similar to a warrior GS 5.

ArmageddonAsh.6430

2) Like what? Again, this is something only FEW classes have and even then, again limited in duration Some classes have blocks, Mesmer has Scepter #2 and a sword block, Engi has shield that stuns, Ele has shield that can stun dunno about warrior, guardian or Ranger – Necro has NONE of these.

Warriors have: Shield 5, Endure Pain active and at 25% health, off-hand Sword 5 block, Great sword 5 or sword 2 away from the combat area to gain some distance, count to two and hit hammer 4 generally will knock away a thief.

Guardians have: Shelter, Aegis passive, hit F3 to get Aegis again, multiple ways of getting protection, Renewed Focus, Shelter, Focus 5, Hammer 5 and staff 5 running over the cc lines, count to Two and a half use shield 5, Mace 3, Judges Intervention away.

Rangers have: Great sword 4 it works really well against a thief, Traited Signet of Stone, protection on dodge will mitigate a huge burst into a small one.

Necromancers have: Staff 5 and stand in it, or any mark. Most thieves worth their salt will dodge through the mark, your que to dodge too or hit Death Shroud with IV (Weakening Shroud) in Curses. have you tried standing on or continually running through a Spectral Wall? the protection buff works very well and has a chance to fear the thief away from you. Well of darkness is very good at stopping the melee Stealth attacks several times if you stand in it.

does this counter a thief well enough for you?

But what if I don’t see the thief first?
But what if I don’t want to change my whole build to play around 1 class?

A god counter to a thief should be another thief. Stealth could be seen by other thiefs in stealth like the predator effect or something as subtle at this. And only at a very small range, no thief scouters in tower should be able to see them like that.

The thief is a class that could be functioning to a fuller potential. Reliance on stealth causes many all or nothing builds which tend to not contribute much in a group setting or lead to long and engaging fights. A change to the stealth mechanic might potentially be a way to allow the thief to bring more to the table.

It has been mentioned that ability dodges don’t really work and maybe that’s a problem? The solution shouldn’t be to use stealth, it should be to enhance the class to give it more variety.

Edit; from what I’ve been reading it seems that stealth is something thieves are forced into and if that is true then that is a development issue and should be addressed.

If you don’t build around countering a thief, that is your choice. Same as choosing to not build for condition cleanses, or choosing not to build for stability so that Hammer warriors don’t rock you.

The main reason I am against nerfing stealth is simply because thieves aren’t overpowered. You can make all these arguments about changing stealth into something different but the fact is A-Net will not take the time to overhaul something like that, so if you want to nerf stealth, thieves would need to be compensated with other methods of condition cleansing and healing, which wont happen. Then theres the little thing called Shadow Arts, an entire trait line devoted to stealth. What should we do with that? Just forget it exists.

The bottom line is, in every single MMO, people complain about stealth. It happens every time. People just hate stealth classes, thats it. Just because something is annoying to fight against is NOT a reason to nerf it. The thief class is meant to be slippery and mobile, thats why they have a tiny HP pool and lower armor. Thats just the way it is.

Stillshade.7634

But what if I don’t see the thief first?
But what if I don’t want to change my whole build to play around 1 class?

The whole game is based on what if’s. You take condition removal based on, what if I run into a condition class? You take invulnerability skills for, what if I find a power class that I need a breather from? You take a stun breaker for, What if i get disabled?

If you don’t build for every What if scenario the ones you don’t build for are your builds counter! Honestly though it’s pretty much impossible to build for every scenario so there will be counters to every build, eventually (warrior is very powerful at the moment).

Lyrsen.6702:

Stillshade.7634

But what if I don’t see the thief first?
But what if I don’t want to change my whole build to play around 1 class?

The whole game is based on what if’s. You take condition removal based on, what if I run into a condition class? You take invulnerability skills for, what if I find a power class that I need a breather from? You take a stun breaker for, What if i get disabled?

If you don’t build for every What if scenario the ones you don’t build for are your builds counter! Honestly though it’s pretty much impossible to build for every scenario so there will be counters to every build, eventually (warrior is very powerful at the moment).

But that’s my point exactly, if you fight a hammer stun warrior you have at least one stun break slotted to save yourself, if you fight a high damage condition build you have your cleanse to save yourself. These are all things available to every class that hard-counter specific tactics.

Guild Wars 2 is a game where using the right ability at the right time can make all the difference, but there has never been a time when the question came up should I use stealth now? and the answer was no.

Stillshade.7634

Guild Wars 2 is a game where using the right ability at the right time can make all the difference, but there has never been a time when the question came up should I use stealth now? and the answer was no.

There are scenarios where the answer is no to using stealth:

1. In the 3 (or 4) second revealed time, should I use stealth? No.
2. This is one of my favorites, what happens when the Thief is bait for a trap? he doesn’t want to use stealth before the trap springs. The answer is not yet, basically a no until the right time.
3. When contesting a point in sPvP or to prevent capping in WvW do you want to stealth? No.

Edited for Grammar.

Its the fact that people expect to kill a thief with a single counter (as opposed to making him run away) that makes them think stealth is that strong.
While in reality stealth contributes solely to surprise factor of first attack and, somewhat, ability to run away. If thief is running away consider yourself a winner a get over it.
I still wait for a chance to try all those awesome ridiculously op stealth builds. That won’t happen soon I think, as I still faceroll people with unload spam to the face. Some even manage to complain how I am abusing the stealth I don’t have, evades I don’t have, and all those ragechats about “y u blaend mah hama blou” and the like from people seriously not even bothering to step out of red circles.
I am pretty sure that the ones that complain are closer to them, than to very few of those who actually do know how to play.
Thief is like a cookie jar, but with a lid. Even if you don’t see cookies, you know they are there. You just need some effort to get them.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Or if they are a GOOD thief, they can just keep themselves stealthed (easily done) and then just wait for your Aura to run out and leave you an easy target.

Not easily unless you make it easy for them. Good players can give you a real hard time on getting a C&D on them.

Stillshade.7634

But that’s my point exactly, if you fight a hammer stun warrior you have at least one stun break slotted to save yourself, if you fight a high damage condition build you have your cleanse to save yourself. These are all things available to every class that hard-counter specific tactics.

I think your definition of “hard counter” needs to change. A stun break will remove one effect but will not affect the next disabling ability hence a soft counter, stability is a hard counter to stuns, it prevents them from happening again.

Condition removal is not a hard counter, it’s a soft counter, it does not prevent the conditions from being re-applied, Berserker Stance is a hard counter to conditions, they cannot be applied to you again, same with Elementalist trait XI in Earth magic Diamond Skin and Engineer trait XII in Alchemy Automated Response. Only three classes of the eight have a hard counter to conditions, the rest is a soft counter and is up to skill when and where to use it.

Lyrsen.6702:

Stillshade.7634

But that’s my point exactly, if you fight a hammer stun warrior you have at least one stun break slotted to save yourself, if you fight a high damage condition build you have your cleanse to save yourself. These are all things available to every class that hard-counter specific tactics.

I think your definition of “hard counter” needs to change. A stun break will remove one effect but will not affect the next disabling ability hence a soft counter, stability is a hard counter to stuns, it prevents them from happening again.

Condition removal is not a hard counter, it’s a soft counter, it does not prevent the conditions from being re-applied, Berserker Stance is a hard counter to conditions, they cannot be applied to you again, same with Elementalist trait XI in Earth magic Diamond Skin and Engineer trait XII in Alchemy Automated Response. Only three classes of the eight have a hard counter to conditions, the rest is a soft counter and is up to skill when and where to use it.

A hard counter has no effect on re-application, it just negates the affect.

soft counter is what devalues something
hard counter is what makes it counter productive (eg punishes it)
Its the fact that greatest problems of GW2 is that for almost everything in this game hard counters do not exist.

Definition of Hard Counter:
A strategy that utterly dominates another strategy, leaving no question of the outcome.

Compare to soft counter. In a soft counter, the strategy being countered can still be victorious through skill or luck. There is no chance of this when a hard counter is used.

Yes I had to go look this up, Source here

Same thing I said. Its just what I said would be easier to understand for those it was meant for.
Stability is by no mean a hard counter to CC. The user of CC does not lose because he uses CC on stability.

We hear a lot around here about “hard counters” and “soft counters.” But what are they? The term has floated around the gaming world for some time, particularly in the video game world. They simply mean this: A hard counter is a response to an attack that not only renders that attack nearly or completely useless, it may well convert the attack into an outright benefit. A soft counter is a response to an attack that still causes some damage to be suffered, but less damage than if that counter had not been played. One can extend that concept to plays beyond mere attacks; more on that later.
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=5039.0

example: a hard counter to a hgh engineer is a boon corrupt necro
this is not saying the engineer will lose, it just becomes very difficult

coun·ter 3 [koun-ter]
adverb
1.
in the wrong way; contrary to the right course; in the reverse or opposite direction.
2.
contrary; in opposition (usually preceded by run or go ): to run counter to the rules.
adjective
3.
opposite; opposed; contrary.
noun
4.
something that is opposite or contrary to something else.
5.
a blow delivered in receiving or parrying another blow, as in boxing.
6.
a statement or action made to refute, oppose, or nullify another statement or action.
7.
Fencing. a circular parry.
8.
a piece of leather or other material inserted between the lining and outside leather of a shoe or boot quarter to keep it stiff.
verb (used with object)
13.
to go counter to; oppose; controvert.
14.
to meet or answer (a move, blow, etc.) by another in return.
verb (used without object)
15.
to make a counter or opposing move.
16.
to give a blow while receiving or parrying one, as in boxing.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/counter

Stx.4857:

If you don’t build around countering a thief, that is your choice. Same as choosing to not build for condition cleanses, or choosing not to build for stability so that Hammer warriors don’t rock you.

The main reason I am against nerfing stealth is simply because thieves aren’t overpowered. You can make all these arguments about changing stealth into something different but the fact is A-Net will not take the time to overhaul something like that, so if you want to nerf stealth, thieves would need to be compensated with other methods of condition cleansing and healing, which wont happen. Then theres the little thing called Shadow Arts, an entire trait line devoted to stealth. What should we do with that? Just forget it exists.

The bottom line is, in every single MMO, people complain about stealth. It happens every time. People just hate stealth classes, thats it. Just because something is annoying to fight against is NOT a reason to nerf it. The thief class is meant to be slippery and mobile, thats why they have a tiny HP pool and lower armor. Thats just the way it is.

I think it’s a little premature to jump into a conversation and claim that the thread’s intent is to make more hard counters to Stealth or that there is no soft counter gameplay against Stealth that indeed, all classes can execute given the correct build.

No-one denies that every class has ways to defend against Stealth and Stealth openers against Thief. But again, no-one can deny that Stealth is simply not fun to play against because the mechanic is not fully developed across all classes.

The putting up blocks, the constant turns to deny the backstab angle (I have bound the 180 turn to my mouse in WvW), the active defense of putting up Protection or of laying PbAOE – no-one can deny that the gameplay and mechanics exist to soft counter Thief Stealth.

Similarly, no-one here (bar a few knee jerk reactions that haven’t read the thread) wants Stealth for Thief to be nerfed. I’m just not seeing where these defensive stances are coming from because Arenanet’s stance (and I believe it is the correct stance) on Stealth for the Thief is that it is indeed in an acceptable place at the moment; D/P Thief is tourney and WvW viable; Shadow Refuge is a part of standard play in down state control. I understand the frustration that other people on other classes are coming from when they hate Stealth classes.

The thing to remember is that no build can do everything. To then take the stance that “if you don’t build around countering a Thief, you deserve to die” is a clear example of a Straw Man . I’d like to think that I’ve elaborated on my reasons as to why Stealth, while an integral part of Thief gameplay and is fun to play around with, is unfun to play against.

As a follow-on point, Stealth as a mechanic is woefully underdeveloped in terms of interaction for classes other than Thief.

I believe that a good direction to take this thread would now be to brainstorm ways classes other than Thief can play around the Stealth mechanic – whether it be through forcing Revealed in an area (Hard counter) – or for Stealth openers such as Backstab to put more of the burden of skill on the Thief rather than on the defender.

I posted earlier proposing that Stealth, instead of being a black border effect similar to Quickening Zephyr, or Frenzy, or Super Speed or Quickness – be instead changed to a Boon (Gold Chevron)

It would immediately allow classes to slot Boon Hate utilities (if they so chose) to be able to force Reveal on Thieves – or take Boon Hate traits such as Destruction of the Empowered to punish the abuse of Stealth – all while leaving Stealth mechanics for Thief intact; while making the matchup of Thieves against other classes a little less lopsided at the beginning of the fight; whilst also making Stealth just another mechanic you can play around

Stx, Lyrsen, what would you say about that? As it stands, turning Stealth into a Boon would change the following matchups (off the top of my head)

• Shatter Mesmer – GS/Staff with Null Field
• Warrior – Running Destruction of the Empowered will make that Earthshaker even more vital to avoid
• Necromancer – Particularly running Well of Corruption or /D
• Engineer – Throw Mine actually has a use now! And Mine field would be a flavourful way to counter Stealth while the Thief can also dodge through them, so counter-counter play can exist (Great for mind-games)

That said, there still remains 4 classes – Thief (ironically), Guardian, Ranger, Elementalist – without any interaction with Stealth even after this change. How would you bring those classes into the Boon Hate fold?

Ancient Ranger.3276:

Maesk.8753:

Aza.2105:

The moment Anet introduces a predator for stealth is the moment the thief population will be culled.

Maybe because that would actually destroy the class. I’m not sure if you’re aware of this or not, but a large majority of thieves sustain/utility comes from stealth. By reducing the thieves ability to stealth, you’re also reducing their access to almost everything.

As for a ‘counter’, I personally think that’s a little unfair, no? Currently there are no other classes which have their defining class feature countered by a single skill (sic’em). Can I get a skill that destroys all clones/pets in an AOE around me?

Can you not kill a rangers pet? Or kill a mesmers clones? Yes you can so it might not be in a single skill AoE(though it might be provided you have enough dps) you can still counter their mechanic. along with sick ‘em you can still stealth after they have used the skill. Just as ranger can swap pets and mesmers can produce more clones. So no single skill that apply revealed will not break your profession. Every profession can have its mechanic countered. Warriors via *everyone’s* dodge button. Elementalist(my profession) via chill or knockdown, along with guardian and necros I believe. And not to sure if engineers can have their’s interrupted. So currently thief mechanic can only be counter by rangers sick ’em or that ridiculously non-intelligent non-usefull trap in WvW. As for me i believe if i hit a thief in stealth he should become revealed because comon sense says if I hit something that is invisible I know it is there along with physics. Unless this game defies physics then i guess anything goes.

So you can’t dodge cloak and dagger? or interupt heartseeker through blackpowder? Push him out of shadow refuge or drop enormous damage there? Yeah they have blinding powder, warrior have berserker stance/ endure pain also. Conclusion stealth has many counters, you either don’t know them or ignore them -> problem is not stealth but you sir.

A hard counter to stealth would be the Ranger skill Sic ‘em. That’d be about it. I think each class needs one ability that mirrors that in some way.

The hard counter to skills that block are skills that are unblockable. Many traits or abilities are unblockable.

Ihales.3820:

Ancient Ranger.3276:

Maesk.8753:

Aza.2105:

The moment Anet introduces a predator for stealth is the moment the thief population will be culled.

Maybe because that would actually destroy the class. I’m not sure if you’re aware of this or not, but a large majority of thieves sustain/utility comes from stealth. By reducing the thieves ability to stealth, you’re also reducing their access to almost everything.

As for a ‘counter’, I personally think that’s a little unfair, no? Currently there are no other classes which have their defining class feature countered by a single skill (sic’em). Can I get a skill that destroys all clones/pets in an AOE around me?

Can you not kill a rangers pet? Or kill a mesmers clones? Yes you can so it might not be in a single skill AoE(though it might be provided you have enough dps) you can still counter their mechanic. along with sick ‘em you can still stealth after they have used the skill. Just as ranger can swap pets and mesmers can produce more clones. So no single skill that apply revealed will not break your profession. Every profession can have its mechanic countered. Warriors via *everyone’s* dodge button. Elementalist(my profession) via chill or knockdown, along with guardian and necros I believe. And not to sure if engineers can have their’s interrupted. So currently thief mechanic can only be counter by rangers sick ’em or that ridiculously non-intelligent non-usefull trap in WvW. As for me i believe if i hit a thief in stealth he should become revealed because comon sense says if I hit something that is invisible I know it is there along with physics. Unless this game defies physics then i guess anything goes.

So you can’t dodge cloak and dagger? or interupt heartseeker through blackpowder? Push him out of shadow refuge or drop enormous damage there? Yeah they have blinding powder, warrior have berserker stance/ endure pain also. Conclusion stealth has many counters, you either don’t know them or ignore them -> problem is not stealth but you sir.

Pretty sure the discussion’s moved on from the point about soft counters for Stealth openers, but hey, whatever. Blocks, dodges, PbAOE, blah blah blah. It’s been said; the matchup just isn’t fun. I challenge you to say that the Stealth mechanic is well developed across all classes right now.

I also don’t like the general attitude that (I’m presuming here) Thieves that play with Stealth, or PU Mesmer, or whatever other build uses Stealth as a major component that player frustrations are simply an L2P issue.

Let me ask you this:
Why is it that Thief has received a nerf, direct or indirect, practically every patch?

Here, I’ll make it easy.
Because players whine.

Why do they whine?
Because Stealth isn’t fun on the receiving end and the mechanic is underdeveloped outside of Thief.

I will say this. As an Engineer, my favourite moment in WvW was running Power Rifle (not SD) with 3 kits and running into a “permastealth” Thief. My favourite part of the duel was seeing him drop his Black Powder. Immediately I overcharged shot him out of his Heartseeker Leap Finisher, and bursted him down.

I didn’t even stomp him out. So playing around with Soft Counters with Stealth can be fun. But I’ve equally had frustrating duels starting 10k health down, regain the upper hand, and had the Thief Stealth away. That’s just about the most anti-fun mechanic there is and whilst I accept it as part of the game mechanics at the moment; more should be done with and against Stealth for all classes.

I have read everything you posted, and no matter how you say it, what you are trying to do is nerf stealth, which in turn will nerf thieves. The reason you want to do this, is because you don’t like to fight against stealthers. You then take this opinion of yours(even if it may be an opinion shared by many), and use it as a reason to lobby for nerfing stealth, even though thieves are not overpowered.

As has been pointed out by others, stealth has counters. There is no logical reason why there needs to be hard counters added to the game, not when thieves have such low HP/armor, and rely on stealth for condition cleanses/regen.

Stx.4857:

If you don’t build around countering a thief, that is your choice. Same as choosing to not build for condition cleanses, or choosing not to build for stability so that Hammer warriors don’t rock you.

The main reason I am against nerfing stealth is simply because thieves aren’t overpowered. You can make all these arguments about changing stealth into something different but the fact is A-Net will not take the time to overhaul something like that, so if you want to nerf stealth, thieves would need to be compensated with other methods of condition cleansing and healing, which wont happen. Then theres the little thing called Shadow Arts, an entire trait line devoted to stealth. What should we do with that? Just forget it exists.

The bottom line is, in every single MMO, people complain about stealth. It happens every time. People just hate stealth classes, thats it. Just because something is annoying to fight against is NOT a reason to nerf it. The thief class is meant to be slippery and mobile, thats why they have a tiny HP pool and lower armor. Thats just the way it is.

But this logic doesn’t apply to the thief class. You do not have to build a niche build to fight against a class. I see players use the excuse all the time that thief is squishy, truth is anyone in zerker gear is. And from a mitigation point of view, thief’s damage reduction isn’t much different than guardian. The difference between med and heavy armor is only around 7% damage reduction.

Backstab hits extremely hard regardless how much defense you have. Even with 2100 toughness a guardian still gets hit with 4.7k from BS. That is nearly half of their base hp in one hit that you can not see coming nor counter play. So using your logic even a defensive oriented character is squishy against a thief.

Stx.4857:

I have read everything you posted, and no matter how you say it, what you are trying to do is nerf stealth, which in turn will nerf thieves. The reason you want to do this, is because you don’t like to fight against stealthers. You then take this opinion of yours(even if it may be an opinion shared by many), and use it as a reason to lobby for nerfing stealth, even though thieves are not overpowered.

As has been pointed out by others, stealth has counters. There is no logical reason why there needs to be hard counters added to the game, not when thieves have such low HP/armor, and rely on stealth for condition cleanses/regen.

Ah, but then that statement could not explain the change to Sic’em, which is a hard counter to Stealth because it inflicts Revealed.

The key thing to keep in mind here that even this Hard Counter has a counter . Sic’em can easily be dodged, and as a Pet utility, it is hardly reliable due to Pet AI. Which is probably why I haven’t seen many Rangers slot it in PvP. I don’t play Ranger at all, it may very well be that Rangers do slot Sic’em in WvW.

I believe that you are taking the stance that more counters to Stealth as a perceived threat to the ongoing viability to your class when Thief is already in a bad place balance wise. I won’t deny that D/P is probably the only real “tourney viable” build after the S/D nerfs.

That said, Thief as a class has languished in terms of design and build variety from the beginning. It is almost literally a 1 trick pony in it’s current state. I don’t deny that. But I will say this: adding more ways for professions other than Thief to counterplay stealth instead will be better for Thief in the end. It will quiet the whiners and allow the senseless nerfs to wane, while allowing the Stealth mechanic to develop.

In fact, I will go out on a limb here and say that Thief is in its current sad state because of Stealth. Arenanet is in a difficult position of being wary of buffing Thief’s other aspects because of the uproar that could result; especially when S/D Thief happened to push Elementalist AND Mesmer out of the meta. I would even say that D/P Thief’s very existence is denying any other build aside from S/X Fresh Air Elementalist from seeing play.

Further developing other classes interaction with Stealth could be what is needed to breath new builds into the game:

• Classes like Ranger could then get a good Power based build if Stealth-interacting skills were introduced through new skills or as an existing addition to present skills. Have you heard of Camouflage? It could well become part of a viable Power Ranger (heh) build if only the Stealth mechanic was more explored.
• You can even see this in the form of PU Mesmer – Stealth is one of the few mitigations keeping condi Mesmer actually viable as they would otherwise lack the utility and escapes needed to pull off their build. Is the build unfun to fight against? For sure. But you cannot deny that the Stealth interaction has opened up a new build.

Again, the fact that Thief is practically the only class with good interaction with Stealth and that other classes do not possess anything but full-on defensive play as counterplay, is unhealthy. For the Thief, for everyone else, and for the game. One merely has to see Thief’s current state of balance.

Thief doesn’t have a stealth problem in spvp, because the game being objective based acts as a barrier to prevent the abuse of the mechanic. The moment Anet introduces a deathmatch game mode is when we will see a overabundance of thieves and mesmers.

MonMalthias.4763:

… But I will say this: adding more ways for professions other than Thief to counterplay stealth instead will be better for Thief in the end. It will quiet the whiners and allow the senseless nerfs to wane, while allowing the Stealth mechanic to develop.

It never has before, it will not end now.

Hint: thieves don’t have much stability.

MonMalthias.4763:

Pretty sure the discussion’s moved on from the point about soft counters for Stealth openers, but hey, whatever. Blocks, dodges, PbAOE, blah blah blah. It’s been said; the matchup just isn’t fun. I challenge you to say that the Stealth mechanic is well developed across all classes right now.

I also don’t like the general attitude that (I’m presuming here) Thieves that play with Stealth, or PU Mesmer, or whatever other build uses Stealth as a major component that player frustrations are simply an L2P issue.

Let me ask you this:
Why is it that Thief has received a nerf, direct or indirect, practically every patch?

Here, I’ll make it easy.
Because players whine.

Why do they whine?
Because Stealth isn’t fun on the receiving end and the mechanic is underdeveloped outside of Thief.

I will say this. As an Engineer, my favourite moment in WvW was running Power Rifle (not SD) with 3 kits and running into a “permastealth” Thief. My favourite part of the duel was seeing him drop his Black Powder. Immediately I overcharged shot him out of his Heartseeker Leap Finisher, and bursted him down.

I didn’t even stomp him out. So playing around with Soft Counters with Stealth can be fun. But I’ve equally had frustrating duels starting 10k health down, regain the upper hand, and had the Thief Stealth away. That’s just about the most anti-fun mechanic there is and whilst I accept it as part of the game mechanics at the moment; more should be done with and against Stealth for all classes.

People whine because let’s face it majority of players are bad. They whine about everything no matter if it is OP or just annoying.
Why is Thief being nerfed every patch? Why not Warrior? Or any other class? They need scapegoat and Warrior is their favorite class. Most of the developers on stream play Warrior and Warrior is one of the classes with largest playerbase of bad players. I am not saying there are only bad Warriors, but it is archetype that is just extremely popular – more people = more bad people. They don’t want to make one of the largest playerbases unhappy.

On stealth question, no it is not fun mechanic. Can thief survive without it? Yes he can same as Warrior with base HP lowered on Thief level and without any immunities like endure pain, berserker stance, shield blocks etc.
You may ask why did I pick on warrior. That is because in most cases he can disengage as easily as thief and he doesn’t need stealth to do it. He also has “invulnerabilities” like stealth, yet he won’t get nerf.

And other point of view in what does thief excel except of roaming?

(Yes, I am thief player. I would gladly remove stealth if compensated accordingly. And with free profession change I would probably switch. I wouldn’t reroll because of time and money spent on this character.)

Ihales.3820:

MonMalthias.4763:

Pretty sure the discussion’s moved on from the point about soft counters for Stealth openers, but hey, whatever. Blocks, dodges, PbAOE, blah blah blah. It’s been said; the matchup just isn’t fun. I challenge you to say that the Stealth mechanic is well developed across all classes right now.

I also don’t like the general attitude that (I’m presuming here) Thieves that play with Stealth, or PU Mesmer, or whatever other build uses Stealth as a major component that player frustrations are simply an L2P issue.

Let me ask you this:
Why is it that Thief has received a nerf, direct or indirect, practically every patch?

Here, I’ll make it easy.
Because players whine.

Why do they whine?
Because Stealth isn’t fun on the receiving end and the mechanic is underdeveloped outside of Thief.

I will say this. As an Engineer, my favourite moment in WvW was running Power Rifle (not SD) with 3 kits and running into a “permastealth” Thief. My favourite part of the duel was seeing him drop his Black Powder. Immediately I overcharged shot him out of his Heartseeker Leap Finisher, and bursted him down.

I didn’t even stomp him out. So playing around with Soft Counters with Stealth can be fun. But I’ve equally had frustrating duels starting 10k health down, regain the upper hand, and had the Thief Stealth away. That’s just about the most anti-fun mechanic there is and whilst I accept it as part of the game mechanics at the moment; more should be done with and against Stealth for all classes.

People whine because let’s face it majority of players are bad. They whine about everything no matter if it is OP or just annoying.
Why is Thief being nerfed every patch? Why not Warrior? Or any other class? They need scapegoat and Warrior is their favorite class. Most of the developers on stream play Warrior and Warrior is one of the classes with largest playerbase of bad players. I am not saying there are only bad Warriors, but it is archetype that is just extremely popular – more people = more bad people. They don’t want to make one of the largest playerbases unhappy.

On stealth question, no it is not fun mechanic. Can thief survive without it? Yes he can same as Warrior with base HP lowered on Thief level and without any immunities like endure pain, berserker stance, shield blocks etc.
You may ask why did I pick on warrior. That is because in most cases he can disengage as easily as thief and he doesn’t need stealth to do it. He also has “invulnerabilities” like stealth, yet he won’t get nerf.

And other point of view in what does thief excel except of roaming?

(Yes, I am thief player. I would gladly remove stealth if compensated accordingly. And with free profession change I would probably switch. I wouldn’t reroll because of time and money spent on this character.)

Strong aoe in zergs with shortbow, stealth support revives in zergs, venom sharing is stupid kittening OP (even in small man), blast finisher spam into a water field for a ton of healing since initiative is a cooldown (no its not devs, its not even close to a cooldown)

You lack perspective…

The key issue of thief stealth is —- it’s fair that thief can ALWAYS have the right to engage a fight, but it’s NOT fair that thief can ALSO ALWAYS have the right to disengage a fight. A class shouldn’t have both burst and survival together.
It can be changed to be fair very easily — entering combat mode should trigger revealed no matter you hit others or get hit, if you want to re-stealth, get out of combat 1st (don’t forget thief ALSO has the #1 mobility as well among all classes, it’s not hard for thief to get out of combat with mobility ONLY). I would say thief can still have 1 skill (just 1) to re-stealth during combat, but should be a fairly long CD (e.g. an elite skill, re-stealth in combat is extremely powerful which is worth an elite slot), not like current stealth meta, I hit you, if you don’t die I re-stealth then comeback in a few sec. There should be some risk vs return.
The right way is to make players use stealth WITH care but not just simply ABUSE it.

You will blast combo fields with almost any class and some of them have their own water fields as well (not only as stolen item from ranger). Strong AoE is also available for a lot of classes, often stronger or with some added utility (CC or also blast).
Venom sharing is one trick pony. In large scale it is useless due to application on different targets with cleave and AoE. It is great for focusing single target when you have numerical advantage. Still you can do same job even without venom share. And shadow refuge in zerg fight is big sign “Attack here” for any competent player. Yet ok, you have banners, glyphs, signets and spirits for revives too, doing same or better job.

You just gave examples of good things not exceptional. I never said thief is bad in everything. I said he doesn’t excel anywhere outside of roaming. It can be decent in many areas but there will be better classes in that area and for many situations the better class will be the same.

Ihales.3820:

You will blast combo fields with almost any class and some of them have their own water fields as well (not only as stolen item from ranger). Strong AoE is also available for a lot of classes, often stronger or with some added utility (CC or also blast).
Venom sharing is one trick pony. In large scale it is useless due to application on different targets with cleave and AoE. It is great for focusing single target when you have numerical advantage. Still you can do same job even without venom share. And shadow refuge in zerg fight is big sign “Attack here” for any competent player. Yet ok, you have banners, glyphs, signets and spirits for revives too, doing same or better job.

You just gave examples of good things not exceptional. I never said thief is bad in everything. I said he doesn’t excel anywhere outside of roaming. It can be decent in many areas but there will be better classes in that area and for many situations the better class will be the same.

A thief can get off 3 shortbow explosive shots into a large ele water field easily. And venom sharing is extremely strong, especially in today’s condi meta, stealth revives are also really good. Just watch these vids for venom sharing stupidity.

You just confirmed what I said. It is strong in roaming and for focusing single target with numerical advantage. And elementalist or engineer can blast water field in similar matter.

Ihales.3820:

You just confirmed what I said. It is strong in roaming and for focusing single target with numerical advantage. And elementalist or engineer can blast water field in similar matter.

And a thief can stick in short bow, get more blast finishers, and still have plenty of utilities. Both are really strong in zergs, especially with condi necros in grp with them. It locks down groups of people and seperates them from the blob making them vulnerable to attack since they can’t exploit the AOE cap.

In my opinion ANet should give Rangers access to a form of stealth detection. Maybe a GM trait that allows them to see stealthed targets within a certain range. They could be made to be the natural counter to a Thief.

The simplest solution would be having ANY incoming damage apply the revealed debuff. It makes sense.

Stillshade.7634:

Stx.4857:

Stillshade.7634:

Stx.4857:

MonMalthias.4763:

Thief just isn’t fun to play against; and the first step to make it so is to make Stealth interact more with the other classes.

Okay, but see this is just an opinion. I personally think thieves are fun to play against, because they are so kitten squishy. Yes it sucks when they escape, but that is part of their class… they are shady kittens.

Every class has mechanics that are not fun to fight against. I find it very unfun that Guardians can chain aegis with immunities, blinds, dodges, and negate tons of my attacks. I find it very unfun that Warriors can stun and knock me down every few seconds. I find it very unfun that Engineers can fart out bombs and grenades every few seconds and kill me without even targetting me as long as I try to contest a point.

Except all those mechanics can be countered and played against. Stealth cannot be countered which is the topic of this post and that stands true.

Blatantly false statement. You can counter Shadow Refuge, you can counter cloak and dagger, you can counter black powder>Heartseeker spam.

The only ways a thief can stealth with no way to stop him is with blinding powder(40 sec cd), or with a trait that auto stealths. If you are referring to these methods as having no counters, then I would also argue that many other professions have no counters to their defense mechanisms because you cannot prevent them from casting them.

Sometimes you just cant stop a thief from stealthing, sometimes you just cant stop a Guardian from healing to full, life sucks.

This has been discussed and those are only soft counters. There is nothing that truly works against stealth except mindless aoe which is unreliable.

How is it a “soft counter” to KB a Thief out of Shadow Refuge, to dodge a Cloak and Dagger, or to interrupt a Black Powder/Heartseeker combination? Those counters are just as “hard” any other counterplay in PvP.

Imagi.4561:

Stillshade.7634:

Stx.4857:

Stillshade.7634:

Stx.4857:

MonMalthias.4763:

Thief just isn’t fun to play against; and the first step to make it so is to make Stealth interact more with the other classes.

Okay, but see this is just an opinion. I personally think thieves are fun to play against, because they are so kitten squishy. Yes it sucks when they escape, but that is part of their class… they are shady kittens.

Every class has mechanics that are not fun to fight against. I find it very unfun that Guardians can chain aegis with immunities, blinds, dodges, and negate tons of my attacks. I find it very unfun that Warriors can stun and knock me down every few seconds. I find it very unfun that Engineers can fart out bombs and grenades every few seconds and kill me without even targetting me as long as I try to contest a point.

Except all those mechanics can be countered and played against. Stealth cannot be countered which is the topic of this post and that stands true.

Blatantly false statement. You can counter Shadow Refuge, you can counter cloak and dagger, you can counter black powder>Heartseeker spam.

The only ways a thief can stealth with no way to stop him is with blinding powder(40 sec cd), or with a trait that auto stealths. If you are referring to these methods as having no counters, then I would also argue that many other professions have no counters to their defense mechanisms because you cannot prevent them from casting them.

Sometimes you just cant stop a thief from stealthing, sometimes you just cant stop a Guardian from healing to full, life sucks.

This has been discussed and those are only soft counters. There is nothing that truly works against stealth except mindless aoe which is unreliable.

How is it a “soft counter” to KB a Thief out of Shadow Refuge, to dodge a Cloak and Dagger, or to interrupt a Black Powder/Heartseeker combination? Those counters are just as “hard” any other counterplay in PvP.

That isn’t hard counter play, knockbacks and dodges work on all classes. Again, this is like saying that the way to counter protection boon is to do 33% more damage.

With the exception of “possibly” knocking a thief out of shadow refuge. The other skills you named have little room for error to be interrupted. When you look at fears, stuns, knockbacks, knockdowns and so forth. Most of them have longer casting times than clock and dagger or black power/heart seeker combo. Making a reliable interruption close to impossible.

If interrupt skills were 1/4 sec cast time but did little damage then your notion of counter playing those aforementioned skills would be a viable tactic. Part of the problem with the combat system is that Anet wants players to be animation observant instead of castbar observant. Powerful skills and combos that can be executed in a fraction of a second is adverse to the very design they created.

A skill’s power should be tied to how long it takes to complete. Meaning skills with long channels and casting times should be much more powerful than skills that have short channels and casting times. Which would create a need to setup your big damage instead of instantly doing it leaving little room to counter play.

Aza, you are beating a dead horse. It is not going to happen.

Marcarus.5012:

When I encounter thiefs and attack, they simply stealth, hit me once or twice when I can’t see them and I am down. My toons are not glass cannons ( ranger, guardian). I know AOE can help if it hits the area the thief is in. Is one solution to be geared as a glass cannon and try to one shot them first. I am quite frustrated with this mechanic and would appreciate any ideas to counter this.

Find a friend who will go to PvP with you and duel him as he plays thief. There is no “counter” button that beats thieves; you have to learn what their skills are and how to overcome them. They’ve very fun to fight once you know how.

Aza.2105:

Imagi.4561:

How is it a “soft counter” to KB a Thief out of Shadow Refuge, to dodge a Cloak and Dagger, or to interrupt a Black Powder/Heartseeker combination? Those counters are just as “hard” any other counterplay in PvP.

That isn’t hard counter play, knockbacks and dodges work on all classes. Again, this is like saying that the way to counter protection boon is to do 33% more damage.

With the exception of “possibly” knocking a thief out of shadow refuge.

Knockbacks and dodges do indeed work on all classes, but in what way does that disqualify them as being a form of counterplay?

Also, with correct positioning I find that a Thief can always be forced out of SR via push or pull.

Aza.2105:

The other skills you named have little room for error to be interrupted. When you look at fears, stuns, knockbacks, knockdowns and so forth. Most of them have longer casting times than clock and dagger or black power/heart seeker combo. Making a reliable interruption close to impossible.

Unfortunately, whether or not countering is “easy” and the ratio of power-to-cast time are not the topics of discussion. We are talking about whether counterplay is a possibility, since it has been stated several times that countering stealth is impossible—which, clearly, it is not.

Imagi.4561:

Aza.2105:

Imagi.4561:

How is it a “soft counter” to KB a Thief out of Shadow Refuge, to dodge a Cloak and Dagger, or to interrupt a Black Powder/Heartseeker combination? Those counters are just as “hard” any other counterplay in PvP.

That isn’t hard counter play, knockbacks and dodges work on all classes. Again, this is like saying that the way to counter protection boon is to do 33% more damage.

With the exception of “possibly” knocking a thief out of shadow refuge.

Knockbacks and dodges do indeed work on all classes, but in what way does that disqualify them as being a form of counterplay?

Also, with correct positioning I find that a Thief can always be forced out of SR via push or pull.

Aza.2105:

The other skills you named have little room for error to be interrupted. When you look at fears, stuns, knockbacks, knockdowns and so forth. Most of them have longer casting times than clock and dagger or black power/heart seeker combo. Making a reliable interruption close to impossible.

Unfortunately, whether or not countering is “easy” and the ratio of power-to-cast time are not the topics of discussion. We are talking about whether counterplay is a possibility, since it has been stated several times that countering stealth is impossible—which, clearly, it is not.

It was made it a part of the discussion when you brought up how those skills can be interrupted. I showed you why in most cases they can’t. Outside of sic em and stealth trap there is no stealth counter play. Even Anet themselves said that, which is why they wanted to start to introduce counter play when they changed sic em.

“Sick ‘Em will now apply ‘Revealed” to enemies they target. We want to introduce some counter play to Stealth (players have asked for that for a while), so we thought a pet “catching your scent” might be a cool way to insinuate some anti-stealth into the game.”

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/October-15th-balance-skills-updates-preview/first

Aza.2105:

Imagi.4561:

Aza.2105:

Imagi.4561:

How is it a “soft counter” to KB a Thief out of Shadow Refuge, to dodge a Cloak and Dagger, or to interrupt a Black Powder/Heartseeker combination? Those counters are just as “hard” any other counterplay in PvP.

That isn’t hard counter play, knockbacks and dodges work on all classes. Again, this is like saying that the way to counter protection boon is to do 33% more damage.

With the exception of “possibly” knocking a thief out of shadow refuge.

Knockbacks and dodges do indeed work on all classes, but in what way does that disqualify them as being a form of counterplay?

Also, with correct positioning I find that a Thief can always be forced out of SR via push or pull.

Aza.2105:

The other skills you named have little room for error to be interrupted. When you look at fears, stuns, knockbacks, knockdowns and so forth. Most of them have longer casting times than clock and dagger or black power/heart seeker combo. Making a reliable interruption close to impossible.

Unfortunately, whether or not countering is “easy” and the ratio of power-to-cast time are not the topics of discussion. We are talking about whether counterplay is a possibility, since it has been stated several times that countering stealth is impossible—which, clearly, it is not.

It was made it a part of the discussion when you brought up how those skills can be interrupted. I showed you why in most cases they can’t. Outside of sic em and stealth trap there is no stealth counter play. Even Anet themselves said that, which is why they wanted to start to introduce counter play when they changed sic em.

“Sick ‘Em will now apply ‘Revealed” to enemies they target. We want to introduce some counter play to Stealth (players have asked for that for a while), so we thought a pet “catching your scent” might be a cool way to insinuate some anti-stealth into the game.”

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/October-15th-balance-skills-updates-preview/first

Those skills can be interrupted. How easy it is for you, personally, to accomplish this is another discussion entirely.

Anti-stealth/stealth lockout is a type of counterplay. Although this seems to be the only kind of counter that anyone is interested in—likely because it requires the least amount of effort—that doesn’t make it the only kind available. Other potential counterplay has been discussed at length, both in this thread and on the forums in general. If none of our suggestions here were helpful to you, I would suggest going to your specific profession thread and asking there.

Is this discussion still going on? Look the idea is not to counter stealth but to counter thieves.

Stop looking for ways to make stealth not hurt you, start looking for ways to lock the thief down when he is revealed; unlike pu mesmer, thieves do not have aegis every time they exit stealth to stop you from CCing them.

Doesn’t matter if you are fighting stealth thief or evade thief, it’s all just reaction time and timing

Imagi.4561:

Aza.2105:

Imagi.4561:

Aza.2105:

Imagi.4561:

How is it a “soft counter” to KB a Thief out of Shadow Refuge, to dodge a Cloak and Dagger, or to interrupt a Black Powder/Heartseeker combination? Those counters are just as “hard” any other counterplay in PvP.

That isn’t hard counter play, knockbacks and dodges work on all classes. Again, this is like saying that the way to counter protection boon is to do 33% more damage.

With the exception of “possibly” knocking a thief out of shadow refuge.

Knockbacks and dodges do indeed work on all classes, but in what way does that disqualify them as being a form of counterplay?

Also, with correct positioning I find that a Thief can always be forced out of SR via push or pull.

Aza.2105:

The other skills you named have little room for error to be interrupted. When you look at fears, stuns, knockbacks, knockdowns and so forth. Most of them have longer casting times than clock and dagger or black power/heart seeker combo. Making a reliable interruption close to impossible.

Unfortunately, whether or not countering is “easy” and the ratio of power-to-cast time are not the topics of discussion. We are talking about whether counterplay is a possibility, since it has been stated several times that countering stealth is impossible—which, clearly, it is not.

It was made it a part of the discussion when you brought up how those skills can be interrupted. I showed you why in most cases they can’t. Outside of sic em and stealth trap there is no stealth counter play. Even Anet themselves said that, which is why they wanted to start to introduce counter play when they changed sic em.

“Sick ‘Em will now apply ‘Revealed” to enemies they target. We want to introduce some counter play to Stealth (players have asked for that for a while), so we thought a pet “catching your scent” might be a cool way to insinuate some anti-stealth into the game.”

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/October-15th-balance-skills-updates-preview/first

Those skills can be interrupted. How easy it is for you, personally, to accomplish this is another discussion entirely.

Anti-stealth/stealth lockout is a type of counterplay. Although this seems to be the only kind of counter that anyone is interested in—likely because it requires the least amount of effort—that doesn’t make it the only kind available. Other potential counterplay has been discussed at length, both in this thread and on the forums in general. If none of our suggestions here were helpful to you, I would suggest going to your specific profession thread and asking there.

None of those solutions named earlier in the thread are counter play. Anet themselves stated that “We want to introduce some counter play to Stealth (players have asked for that for a while), so we thought a pet “catching your scent” might be a cool way to insinuate some anti-stealth into the game.”.

Meaning that before sic em counter play didn’t exist. Are you calling the designers of the game liars then?

Thief’s stealthing abilities and hard counters:
Utilities:
-Hide in Shadows (healing) —> Big blue effect that shouts: Interrupt me (just like any other healing besides instant casts like withdraw, engi’s turret, …)
-Blinding powder —> /
-Smokescreen + finisher —> Interrupt the leap or stand near it so the blast hits you, or just interrupt him
-Shadow trap (triggered) —> If you see him place it, avoid the location
-Shadow refuge —> Push, pull, fear, knockback (If he had reveal already, stack another 4s reveal with sic’em)

Weaponskills
Cloak and Dagger —> blind, block, aegis, interrupt, dodge
Blackpowder + finisher —> Interrupt, push, pull, knockback, knockdown
Steal when traited —> Honestly not sure if stealth triggers if the steal is negated … Anyone?

Traits and runes:
Stealth below 25% —> /
Stealth below 10% —> /
(Remember, chances are they are fighting you, and this trait actually gives them REVEAL instead of STEALTH)

PS: Sic’em is a HC for all of them, I didn’t put it every where though

Gwalchgwn.1659:

Thief’s stealthing abilities and hard counters:
Utilities:
-Hide in Shadows (healing) —> Big blue effect that shouts: Interrupt me (just like any other healing besides instant casts like withdraw, engi’s turret, …)
-Blinding powder --> /
-Smokescreen + finisher —> Interrupt the leap or stand near it so the blast hits you, or just interrupt him
-Shadow trap (triggered) --> If you see him place it, avoid the location
-Shadow refuge —> Push, pull, fear, knockback (If he had reveal already, stack another 4s reveal with sic’em)

Weaponskills
Cloak and Dagger —> blind, block, aegis, interrupt, dodge
Blackpowder + finisher --> Interrupt, push, pull, knockback, knockdown
Steal when traited —> Honestly not sure if stealth triggers if the steal is negated … Anyone?

Traits and runes:
Stealth below 25% —> /
Stealth below 10% --> /
(Remember, chances are they are fighting you, and this trait actually gives them REVEAL instead of STEALTH)

PS: Sic’em is a HC for all of them, I didn’t put it every where though

None of what you listed are counters though. People seem to be perplexed at what the word counter means:

1. To meet or return (a blow) by another blow.
2. To move or act in opposition to; oppose.
3. To offer in response: countered that she was too busy to be thorough.
To move, act, or respond so as to be in opposition.

What you and others are describing is stealth “prevention”. Prevention is not the same as a counter.

Prevention:

1. the act or practice of stopping something bad from happening : the act of preventing something

That is a significant difference. There are lots of potential “stealth preventions” in game. But there exists only one counter throughout all eight classes.

In a competitive game a counter is something that delivers equal force but of the opposite polarity. Lets take a look at the counters available in gw2 at this time:

1. Fear, Stunned, Daze, Knockdown, Knockback —-———-Stability & Stun Breaker
2. Boons —-— Boon Strip/Corruption
3. Protection boon —-—— Vulnerability
4. Regeneration boon —-—- burning, bleeding, torment
5. Healing —-—- Poison
6. Endurance —-—- Weakness
7. Swiftness —-—- Cripple, Chill, Immobilize
8. Stealth —-—- Sic em

As you see there is a pattern, the counter is the opposite of the skill it opposes.
Here is how this list would would look like if the understanding of counter according to certain people in this thread were true:

1. Fear, Stunned, Daze, Knockdown, Knockback —-———-Dodge/Evade
2. Boons —-— Do more damage
3. Protection boon —-—— Do more damage
4. Regeneration boon —-—- Do more damage
5. Healing —-—- Interrupt them
6. Endurance —-—- Make them waste all of their dodges
7. Swiftness —-—- Kill them before they can use swiftness
8. Stealth —-—- Interrupt them

I just had a good idea how to fix stealth for thieves.
I think the main problem is that they can perma stealth and reset fights whenever they want.

Fix:
When using Heatseeker while already stealthed drain all initiative or apply revealed.
That would fix perma stealth and the stealth heart seekers to run away.
But still allow to gain stealth for attacking with blind field.
Additionally a missd backstab should cancel stealth.

Actually Sic em is also a “prevention” but not a real counter vs stealth. It can only delay the potential stealth but not really counter it.

Aza.2105:

Gwalchgwn.1659:

Thief’s stealthing abilities and hard counters:
Utilities:
-Hide in Shadows (healing) —> Big blue effect that shouts: Interrupt me (just like any other healing besides instant casts like withdraw, engi’s turret, …)
-Blinding powder --> /
-Smokescreen + finisher —> Interrupt the leap or stand near it so the blast hits you, or just interrupt him
-Shadow trap (triggered) --> If you see him place it, avoid the location
-Shadow refuge —> Push, pull, fear, knockback (If he had reveal already, stack another 4s reveal with sic’em)

Weaponskills
Cloak and Dagger —> blind, block, aegis, interrupt, dodge
Blackpowder + finisher --> Interrupt, push, pull, knockback, knockdown
Steal when traited —> Honestly not sure if stealth triggers if the steal is negated … Anyone?

Traits and runes:
Stealth below 25% —> /
Stealth below 10% --> /
(Remember, chances are they are fighting you, and this trait actually gives them REVEAL instead of STEALTH)

PS: Sic’em is a HC for all of them, I didn’t put it every where though

None of what you listed are counters though. People seem to be perplexed at what the word counter means:

1. To meet or return (a blow) by another blow.
2. To move or act in opposition to; oppose.
3. To offer in response: countered that she was too busy to be thorough.
To move, act, or respond so as to be in opposition.

What you and others are describing is stealth “prevention”. Prevention is not the same as a counter.

Prevention:

1. the act or practice of stopping something bad from happening : the act of preventing something

That is a significant difference. There are lots of potential “stealth preventions” in game. But there exists only one counter throughout all eight classes.

In a competitive game a counter is something that delivers equal force but of the opposite polarity. Lets take a look at the counters available in gw2 at this time:

1. Fear, Stunned, Daze, Knockdown, Knockback —-———-Stability & Stun Breaker
2. Boons —-— Boon Strip/Corruption
3. Protection boon —-—— Vulnerability
4. Regeneration boon —-—- burning, bleeding, torment
5. Healing —-—- Poison
6. Endurance —-—- Weakness
7. Swiftness —-—- Cripple, Chill, Immobilize
8. Stealth —-—- Sic em

As you see there is a pattern, the counter is the opposite of the skill it opposes.
Here is how this list would would look like if the understanding of counter according to certain people in this thread were true:

1. Fear, Stunned, Daze, Knockdown, Knockback —-———-Dodge/Evade
2. Boons —-— Do more damage
3. Protection boon —-—— Do more damage
4. Regeneration boon —-—- Do more damage
5. Healing —-—- Interrupt them
6. Endurance —-—- Make them waste all of their dodges
7. Swiftness —-—- Kill them before they can use swiftness
8. Stealth —-—- Interrupt them