Guild Wars 2

just as the title states arena net has a hatred for necromancers

if you are someone who thinks that necros are just fine the way they are then i pretty much state that you don’t play the class in pvp .

the attacks are so slow , buff removal , using heals or even trying to do some heals gets interrupted constantly . with the class lacking in any true advantage to to be able to counter what is being done to them they get beat right out on every level of the game .

necromancers since DAY 1 have been getting nothing but nerfs towards the class and when ever arena net gets together to come up with some kinda buff that might help the class it does little to no impact for the class at all . with their recent announcements of their " buffs " a tiny increase in speed for staff 1 does nothing and a health increase to dagger skill 2 does nothing when hard cc , against classes that can buff for days with 10 stacks of might fury regen and condition cleanse you will find necros are on the short end of the stick

what is it that arena net wants from necros ? it is an enigma right now .

this is what necros demand in order to fight .

necro minion ai fixed now , not tomorrow but now !

hard cc that can give necros a fighting chance !

stability stability stability !!!!

faster cast times on heals !!!!

a reduction in recast on skills across the board !!!

you need skills, my frrand.

because Spectral Grasp, Spectral Wall, Doom, Reaper’s Mark, Wail of Doom, Charge, Rigor Mortis, Tainted Shackles, and Dark Pact aren’t enough hard CC (I do consider Immobilize hard CC)? Most builds run at least four of these and all builds have two.

Plus Stability corruptions.

Simon said it best. Yes, necros are lacking in a couple areas, but this really comes across as a “whaaa, I’m bad” post.

The class is horrible to play, frankly. It can be fun to tag masses of pugs, but bleh not really my bag.

Only place Necro is bad is PvE dungeons, try playing against a Necro without l2p-issues 1v1 and see what happens

I don’t like to rage but replace necro with thief and pvp/conquest. To the guy above me they claim to not balance around 1v1.

Vikkela.7261:

Only place Necro is bad is PvE dungeons, try playing against a Necro without l2p-issues 1v1 and see what happens

The only necros I’ve seen do poorly in a dungeon are staff/minionmancers. The rest used wells and other utility types and managed to stay alive way longer than the rest of the group.

lorndarken.3702:

if you are someone who thinks that necros are just fine the way they are then i pretty much state that you don’t play the class in pvp .

As someone who’s necromancer is his second-most-played character in spvp, I have no idea what you are talking about.

lorndarken.3702:

the attacks are so slow , buff removal , using heals or even trying to do some heals gets interrupted constantly . with the class lacking in any true advantage to to be able to counter what is being done to them they get beat right out on every level of the game .

As far as getting interrupted while healing goes, necromancers are no more affected by this than any other class. Consume Conditions has a 1 and 1/4 second cast time, which is fairly common and not overly long, especially when considering the raw power of a skill that both heals a large portion of one’s health but also cleanses ALL conditions. Very few classes have that much defensive power on a single healing skill.

Add to this the ability of any necromancer to pop death shroud instantaneously, and I fail to see how necromancers are more susceptible to interrupts than other classes.

lorndarken.3702:

this is what necros demand in order to fight .

This is what you demand. In the most childish tone possible, I might add.

lorndarken.3702:

necro minion ai fixed now , not tomorrow but now !

Companion AI in generally has always been a little… finicky. But, the companion system is (in my opinion) a very fun addition to the game that allows for interesting and varied builds across several professions. Yes, several professions. If necromancers are suffering form minion AI, then they are not affected any differently than Guardians, Elementalists, or, least of all, Rangers.

lorndarken.3702:

hard cc that can give necros a fighting chance !

Is fear not considered hard cc? I would say that making my enemies literally dance helplessly for me while I rip their soul into pieces to be “hard control”. I’ve seen plenty of necros (including myself) using the fear from Doom, Reaper’s Mark, Spectral Wall, and the downed skill aptly named “Fear” to deny their enemies access to capture points. Granted, they may not do it as well as certain engineer builds, but the fear effect still feels both fun and powerful.

lorndarken.3702:

stability stability stability !!!!

“Foot in the Grave: Gain stability when you enter death shroud.”
Yes, this is a Grandmaster trait. But it simply doesn’t make sense for necromancers to have easy access to stability, and certainly not just so you can “stability-stomp” people more easily. If a necromancer really wants stability, he can have it in a fairly spammable form. Best of all, it comes with something that is called, in the discussion of balance, “an appropriate trade-off”.

Also: Childish chanting does not an effective argument make.

lorndarken.3702:

faster cast times on heals !!!!

See the above discussion of Consume Conditions.

lorndarken.3702:

a reduction in recast on skills across the board !!!

Um, what? Necromancers, as with all classes, have powerful, bursting skills on long cooldowns and smaller-strength attacks that wear down their opponents on shorter cooldowns. Giving necromancers more all-around cooldown reduction would be just about the most heavy-handed way possible to fix any “problems” you might percieve with the class. This really just sounds like you want your favorite class to be a no-skill, instant-win class. Which would take the fun out of it for those of us who actually enjoy challenge.

yolo swaggins.2570:

Vikkela.7261:

Only place Necro is bad is PvE dungeons, try playing against a Necro without l2p-issues 1v1 and see what happens

The only necros I’ve seen do poorly in a dungeon are staff/minionmancers. The rest used wells and other utility types and managed to stay alive way longer than the rest of the group.

Staying alive longer than anyone isn’t really a good marker of quality in dungeon, it simply makes it sound like the rest of the group was /meh at best and they were decent. Necros aren’t horrible, but they are simply outclassed by every other profession in dungeons due to the way things are designed. Unfortunate, but true.

“Minions”

Necro is one of the better classes in pvp atm imho.

Try running Power Necro or Terrormancer and ditch the minions, lol

I disagree with almost everything the OP said. The only reasonable comments were those about minion AI. Most of the rest of what he stated actually struck me as the opposite of the truth of the matter.

yolo swaggins.2570:

The only necros I’ve seen do poorly in a dungeon are staff/minionmancers. The rest used wells and other utility types and managed to stay alive way longer than the rest of the group.

I picked the wrong word, ‘bad’ was a bit misleading. I’m too tired to find the right word now, but it was not meant be that negative against Necros in PvE

dancingmonkey.4902:

I disagree with almost everything the OP said. The only reasonable comments were those about minion AI. Most of the rest of what he stated actually struck me as the opposite of the truth of the matter.

There are a couple cast times that are excessive (Spinal Shivers) and cooldowns that are too long (Signet of the Locust, arguably Well of Darkness). I definitely wouldn’t say it’s across the board, though.

The moderator is so nice, he didn’t delete your thread, but changed the title

Honestly, I think necro needs the most help with just some team utility, we bring nothing to the table, and a way to not get focused down so easily in group play. Also, siphon buffs or as you said, stability…though they said in the recent ready up that stability doesn’t fit the necromatic theme for some odd reason.

Would love Minion AI fixes but it’s not the most important thing on the list.

I know every class has needs to have some weakness, just seem necromancer has more weaknesses than others…

Necromancers have severe issues in PvE, we’re objectively the worst profession there, and the only one that is absolutely never worth bringing in an organized group unless you are forced to. There are also issues for WvW small group content (zergs we’re in a great spot), and we have some issues in sPvP, but we’re not awful.

However, this thread addresses exactly one true issue: minion AI. The rest really wasn’t worth the time it took to write it out.

Same poster, same topic, same reply. L2p.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

dancingmonkey.4902:

I disagree with almost everything the OP said. The only reasonable comments were those about minion AI. Most of the rest of what he stated actually struck me as the opposite of the truth of the matter.

There are a couple cast times that are excessive (Spinal Shivers) and cooldowns that are too long (Signet of the Locust, arguably Well of Darkness). I definitely wouldn’t say it’s across the board, though.

The cast times are a bit debatable, but I absolutely agree that a few select cool downs are excessive.

Necromancer are good at doing one thing: locking down a target. Thats your team utility. Being the nightmare of someone. But, everyone disliking nightmare, most of the other team with focus you because you are a pain in the kitten . Imo you bring much more to a team than a ranger or thief with all aoe, well and CC/condi.

In my head, necro is like a hambow but really harder to play. Once mastered, you become a fearful opponent in 1vs1 or in group.

TheLastNobody.8319:

Honestly, I think necro needs the most help with just some team utility, we bring nothing to the table, and a way to not get focused down so easily in group play. Also, siphon buffs or as you said, stability…though they said in the recent ready up that stability doesn’t fit the necromatic theme for some odd reason.

Would love Minion AI fixes but it’s not the most important thing on the list.

I know every class has needs to have some weakness, just seem necromancer has more weaknesses than others…

Arenanet can buff Life Siphon base by 100% and increase it’s scaling by 150%. It will all be a mute point when you can’t get the skills off or, much less, complete the entire channel because you have no way to (say it with me people, Arenanet, dwellers underneath rocks, etc.) prevent yourself from getting interrupted.

Klonko.8341:

Necromancer are good at doing one thing: locking down a target. Thats your team utility. Being the nightmare of someone. But, everyone disliking nightmare, most of the other team with focus you because you are a pain in the kitten . Imo you bring much more to a team than a ranger or thief with all aoe, well and CC/condi.

In my head, necro is like a hambow but really harder to play. Once mastered, you become a fearful opponent in 1vs1 or in group.

If you want lockdown there are far better classes for it… like hambow.

when looking at what classes people are playing in the majority of the game what you will see is a lack of necromancers . i did not make a mistake in this analyse because every class in the game have a lot of good things going for them . may it be straight up burst or mobility or a mix of both . and when it comes for people getting to play how they want to play their class , their skills and traits complement each other class in their over all effectiveness , when i was watching the tourny matchs what the common theme you saw with most of the teams in pvp was mesmer , ele , guardian , ranger , thief , maybe a enji or a war here and there but what you saw a lack of was necromancers playing . and there is a reason for why this is . people want to play a class that gives them the cc the healing the burst the mobility and with necro you will not find it at all in practical use !

Jayce.5632:

TheLastNobody.8319:

Honestly, I think necro needs the most help with just some team utility, we bring nothing to the table, and a way to not get focused down so easily in group play. Also, siphon buffs or as you said, stability…though they said in the recent ready up that stability doesn’t fit the necromatic theme for some odd reason.

Would love Minion AI fixes but it’s not the most important thing on the list.

I know every class has needs to have some weakness, just seem necromancer has more weaknesses than others…

Arenanet can buff Life Siphon base by 100% and increase it’s scaling by 150%. It will all be a mute point when you can’t get the skills off or, much less, complete the entire channel because you have no way to (say it with me people, Arenanet, dwellers underneath rocks, etc.) prevent yourself from getting interrupted.

Indeed. It’s even worse when you get stun locked and forced to go into deathshroud to survive, thus losing all stunbreaks and utilities, and probably all life force in a couple of seconds. That’s why I hate it when people go with the “Deathshroud is a second health bar.” argument. We may have a second health bar, but to use it we have to lose all access to our utilities and weapons, and use skills we may not even be built for, as well as be unable to be healed by ourselves or allies…

Yeah that came outta left field…sorry.

There are 4 main problems with necromancers right now all of which have existed since launch.
1: Minion AI sucks, I don’t know why it is so hard to attack my target
2: A ton of health, but no way to regen it. Worst sustain by far, consume conditions is great but has ample counterplay, and is all of the healing most necro builds have. Also the other heals suck (well of blood was good till the nerf).
3: No evades, stability, instant ports, or invulns to avoid cc. DS prevents your health bar from getting damage, but an invuln does that and allows you to escape.
4: Lack of group support through boons. Weakness, poison and chill are great, but when your in a dungeon or the other group has real condition removal they aren’t even remotely as effective as boons.

all the soft cc we have is usually made useless through condi cleanses or the ever more popular invulnerable skills that are usualy run by the classes that can use them….

OP makes multiple posts daily about how bad Necros are. He wants them to be completely OP and have 0 counter play. Maybe try another class for a while darken

Bhawb.7408:

Klonko.8341:

Necromancer are good at doing one thing: locking down a target. Thats your team utility. Being the nightmare of someone. But, everyone disliking nightmare, most of the other team with focus you because you are a pain in the kitten . Imo you bring much more to a team than a ranger or thief with all aoe, well and CC/condi.

In my head, necro is like a hambow but really harder to play. Once mastered, you become a fearful opponent in 1vs1 or in group.

If you want lockdown there are far better classes for it… like hambow.

Why don;t you back that up for us? How much time can a terror mancer lock down (not to mention doing damage with the lock down) compared to your hambow build?

zapv.8051:

There are 4 main problems with necromancers right now all of which have existed since launch………………………………….No instant ports, or invulns to avoid cc.

Mind listing the professions that have both “insta” ports and in vulnerabilities? DO you actually have an logic to support the rational that a professions is broken or problematic with out either of those?

coglin.1867:

Mind listing the professions that have both “insta” ports and in vulnerabilities?

Guardian, Elementalist, and Mesmer all come to mind…

coglin.1867:

Mind listing the professions that have both “insta” ports and in vulnerabilities? DO you actually have an logic to support the rational that a professions is broken or problematic with out either of those?

Only classes with both are mesmer, ele and guardian, but every class except necro has one or the other.

Please, don’t use a “The grass is greener” arguement…

Necromancer is different from other professions, it has therefore different issues and different approaches to combat and balancing…

They need a lot, but the last thing I want to happen with this class is it becomming Warrior 2.0…

The games combat system is designed in such a way that those things are needed. The fact that necro lacks any alternative damage avoidance is a major oversight. No matter how much you argue against it. Until things are changed necro wont improve. Necro needs a speciality or it needs to get things that every other class has.

I’d argue for more Blinds over blocks, evades, or teleports, personally. Much more of a necro feel, and it would help Chilling Darkness become a valuable trait. Also leads to better support, because the blinded foe can’t even just choose to attack someone else instead of the necro to ignore its effects.

spoj.9672:

The games combat system is designed in such a way that those things are needed. The fact that necro lacks any alternative damage avoidance is a major oversight. No matter how much you argue against it. Until things are changed necro wont improve. Necro needs a speciality or it needs to get things that every other class has.

With this I agree, but, and no offense to you and not aimed at you, there is a fine line you need to draw as to where you compare the classes…

I mean, other classes got their own problems even though they have all these “nice things” – it is just that the Necromancer has nice things, but cannot use them – like Siphons, or a non-existant support factor…

Its not really a fine line. Its just a matter of not going overboard with the amount you give to the necro. The other classes have problems but major shortages of all aspects of the combat system due to stubborn class design isnt one of them. Anet have stated the only reason they dont give necros these things is because it doesnt fit the theme. Which i think is absurd. Theres plenty of ways to implement some damage avoidance without ruining the theme. And balance and ensuring the class has a place (is popular) should take priority over pre release design philosophies.

Quick summary to put the class in perspective.
- Selfish class
- Below average self buffing
- Below average damage
- No alternative methods of damage avoidance other than base dodges
- No extra mobility
- No special utility
+ Largest health pool but no reliable sustain to synergise with it.

spoj.9672:

Its not really a fine line. Its just a matter of not going overboard with the amount you give to the necro. The other classes have problems but major shortages of all aspects of the combat system due to stubborn class design isnt one of them. Anet have stated the only reason they dont give necros these things is because it doesnt fit the theme. Which i think is absurd. Theres plenty of ways to implement some damage avoidance without ruining the theme. And balance and ensuring the class has a place (is popular) should take priority over pre release design philosophies.

Quick summary to put the class in perspective.
- Selfish class
- Below average self buffing
- Below average damage
- No alternative methods of damage avoidance other than base dodges
- No extra mobility
- No special utility
+ Largest health pool but no reliable sustain to synergise with it.

Well, to be fair, going overboard is what most people aim at… They want it ‘all’ in the package of the same damage (I suppose) which is sadly not possible – especially if they are never going to split PvE and PvP…

I am all for giving Necromancers more sustain (or reliable ways to heal over time), giving support aside from siphons (which do not contribute to anything in PvE anyway), and lastly, I do not get why things like Corrosive Cloud have not been reworked at all to make it interesting (Say a projectile negation) which would give them a more stable role that fits their theme …

Still looking at support, I am no expert, but when looking back at Necromancer at say GW1, there were a plethore of options for offensive support – but it came at the price of the Necromancer not being the main source of damage … And in this game it got inverted, the Necromancer became a damage bomb with almost no offensive support at all… It went a bit whack really…

And self sustain is pretty much an issue of being reliant on DS and thus life-force regeneration… Apparently a nightmare to balance, as the attemps so far have not been for the greater good… Especially not when the bug-team decides to fix bugs that cost Necromancer’s their survivability…

the trait skill hemofilia will work on off hand dagger and staff but does not work on

scepter , superior rune of the krait , and even in death shroud when specced further into curse trait line . corrupt boon does not work as intended a lot of the time and does not transfer boons into conditions but only removes the boons . path of corruption skill 2 in death shroud has a very slow cast projectile that can get dodged very easily .

these are real issues people that hold the necromancer back and not to mention all the stealth nerfs that has happened as of late

1 buff necros can now hold items and stomp while in death shroud
3 nerfs to necro , when life force is drained from necro it goes on a 10 second cooldown as if you were to exit death shroud ,
when casting transfusion in death shroud and you run out of life force that attack will stop ,
when in death shroud and you go to spike someone if you run out of death shroud you stop in your action of spiking them

Necromancer has a lot of sustain. The issue is the cost of that sustain, which generally makes you worthless in other areas. We don’t have the base strength of other professions. We either have to trait defense or offense, but we never reach the effectiveness of other professions because we are forced to use our traits to make up for base deficiencies that no one else has to deal with.

lorndarken.3702:

the trait skill hemofilia will work on off hand dagger and staff but does not work on scepter , superior rune of the krait , and even in death shroud when specced further into curse trait line . corrupt boon does not work as intended a lot of the time and does not transfer boons into conditions but only removes the boons .

Hemophilia works perfectly with all bleeds in my testing. There is a bug with the skill facts (showing a 40% duration increase instead of 20%), but actual duration is correct.

No form of boon corruption has ever only removed boons, even as a bug. The only time when they don’t get conditions is when they are immune to conditions (Berserker’s Stance, Diamond Skin).

lorndarken.3702:

if you are someone who thinks that necros are just fine the way they are then i pretty much state that you don’t play the class in pvp .

i’m rank 80 and have been pvping since beta, i love necro, they are “just fine” the way they are, BUT they could use a little love, imho all they really need is more effective life stealing.
i’d also say that life stealing should heal through the effect of deathshroud.
life stealing is just as much a class mechanic of necro as stealthing is for thieves,
we shouldn’t be avoiding the blood tree because one of our class mechanics is regarded by many as sub-useless.
vampire builds should be extremely sustainable. (as they were in gw1)

note i do still use blood magic quite a bit in my power build since i use traited warhorn and have a high crit chance the damage it adds is respectable, but the healing is pretty sucky.