Guild Wars 2

just an FYI for the QQ storm

How to Calculate Torment Damage!

(0.0375 * Condition Damage) + (0.375 * Level) + 1.875 per stack per second
(0.0375 * Condition Damage) + 31.875 per stack per second at level 80

and for Comparison, the most ever present condition in game.. Bleeding!

(0.05 * Condition Damage) + (0.5 * Level) + 2.5 per stack per second
(0.05 * Condition Damage) + 42.5 per stack per second at level 80

So, why all the QQ over Torment on AA?

Scepter 1 applies 2s of 1 stack
Auto chain pauses for 1/2 s for Chain #2
2 applies 2s of Torment

Lets pause for a moment, if you did get hit by both of these that means you currently have 2 stacks of torment on you

Auto chain pauses for 1s, yes 1 full second cast time on this attack.

Pause again, you now have 1 stack of torment with 1s remaining on it.

3 fires off. if it hits it generates a clone. if it misses then no clone and we’re back to step 1

Lets say the clone was generated

1/2s cast time on AA Chian #1. you likely do not have any torment on you anymore or maybe slightly less than 1/2s of 1 stack.

Clone also has a 1/2s cast time. but when it hits it only applies 1s of torment.

Both attacks hit you, oh dear, you now have 2 stacks of confusion,

Clone now cannot attack due to mechanics for 1 full second
AA Chain #2 now takes 1/2s to charge up

etc etc…

lets say you end up somehow fighting a mesmer with 3 clones up still only doing AA and using no other skills.

each clone can only apply 1s of torment and then must wait 1s to attack again. thats how clones work btw.. that means if all three clones hit at once thats 3 stacks of Torment for 1s also known as 1 tick or damage application.

The playre can only ever himself/herself keep a maximum of 2 stacks of torment roughly every 3 seconds (scpeter AA chain takes 3.9 seconds to cycle through completely, its the SLOWEST AA CHAIN IN THE GAME)

The max torment damage you can take from AA clones + AA mesmer is 5 stacks for 1 tick.

But where does bleeding come in?

Here is where.

In the world of conditions Bleeding is can be considered as a 1

Burning is somewhat like a 3

Torment on an unmoving target is a .75
and on a moving target is a 1.50

Lets calculate bleed and torm at 1 stack with 0 for condition damage at level 80

Torment
Unmoving = 32per tick
Moving = 64 per Tick

Bleeding
Constant = 42.5 per tick

Now, to explain further, Conditions only gain serious footing when stacks appear and can be held for long durations. Realistically you are going to dodge/block/evade or just plain cause a miss on more than a few of the AA attacks that come in projectile form, regardless of class. We can also assume that either on purpose or by accident, provided you play any of the 6 classes that come with Cleave / AoE attacks, you will be murdering clones left and right.

Torment is not going to get very many stacks and if it does, not for very long in this case.

Bleeding on the other hand often comes with 3 4 5 6 7 etc.. durations for almost any of its applications and its extremely easy to apply for any class. Its easy to stack up and easy to quickly restack when removed.
TL;DR

You as a player will have to worry more about Bleeding from Clone AA’s caused by Sharper Images (a trait mesmers have) than you will torment. If anything, cry about IE finally working with Staff and ask to nerf that, its going ot be hitting you a hell of a lot harder.

TY <3

The Torment they are adding is a base 2 seconds on the first strike (which clones inherit) and 4 seconds on the second strike.

The reason it’s problematic is that the clone autos are essentially uncleansable torment at max power. 2 second duration every 2 seconds may not be unreasonable in the way of damage, but there is very, very little you can do about the damage. Compare it to Necro scepter where yes, you may always be bleeding, but a cleanse buys you relief as they have to re-stack the bleeds. This won’t be the case with clone torment. You cleanse and within two seconds it’s literally back up at max power again. If you’re moving, you will generally have the equivalent of 4.5 bleed stacks on you at all times, regardless of cleansing without the Mesmer himself actually having to hit you at all. This is in addition to the bleed stacks from Sharper Images (which are less consistent, though more damaging, and also truly cleansable).

Killing a clone only relieves its pressure for two seconds or less as the Mesmer pops out another one from its auto attack (or block, or dodge, or Decoy, or Mirror Images). This does not include the possible conditions you take from killing the clone in the first place.

It’s not so much the fact that torment is strong, more of how easily it can be applied. There will be no point to cleansing it as the clones or mesmer themselves will just reapply. There is no point to kill the clones as the mesmer AA chain generates one of those too. This change just made it way too easy to apply, basically giving you 100% torment uptime. Throw in condition duration and RIP wvw roaming.

finally someone with logic and even better with number fact !
+100000000000000 for you

Swish.2463:

just an FYI for the QQ storm

How to Calculate Torment Damage!

(0.0375 * Condition Damage) + (0.375 * Level) + 1.875 per stack per second
(0.0375 * Condition Damage) + 31.875 per stack per second at level 80

and for Comparison, the most ever present condition in game.. Bleeding!

(0.05 * Condition Damage) + (0.5 * Level) + 2.5 per stack per second
(0.05 * Condition Damage) + 42.5 per stack per second at level 80

So, why all the QQ over Torment on AA?

Scepter 1 applies 2s of 1 stack
Auto chain pauses for 1/2 s for Chain #2
2 applies 2s of Torment

Lets pause for a moment, if you did get hit by both of these that means you currently have 2 stacks of torment on you

Auto chain pauses for 1s, yes 1 full second cast time on this attack.

Pause again, you now have 1 stack of torment with 1s remaining on it.

3 fires off. if it hits it generates a clone. if it misses then no clone and we’re back to step 1

Lets say the clone was generated

1/2s cast time on AA Chian #1. you likely do not have any torment on you anymore or maybe slightly less than 1/2s of 1 stack.

Clone also has a 1/2s cast time. but when it hits it only applies 1s of torment.

Both attacks hit you, oh dear, you now have 2 stacks of confusion,

Clone now cannot attack due to mechanics for 1 full second
AA Chain #2 now takes 1/2s to charge up

etc etc…

lets say you end up somehow fighting a mesmer with 3 clones up still only doing AA and using no other skills.

each clone can only apply 1s of torment and then must wait 1s to attack again. thats how clones work btw.. that means if all three clones hit at once thats 3 stacks of Torment for 1s also known as 1 tick or damage application.

The playre can only ever himself/herself keep a maximum of 2 stacks of torment roughly every 3 seconds (scpeter AA chain takes 3.9 seconds to cycle through completely, its the SLOWEST AA CHAIN IN THE GAME)

The max torment damage you can take from AA clones + AA mesmer is 5 stacks for 1 tick.

But where does bleeding come in?

Here is where.

In the world of conditions Bleeding is can be considered as a 1

Burning is somewhat like a 3

Torment on an unmoving target is a .75
and on a moving target is a 1.50

Lets calculate bleed and torm at 1 stack with 0 for condition damage at level 80

Torment
Unmoving = 32per tick
Moving = 64 per Tick

Bleeding
Constant = 42.5 per tick

Now, to explain further, Conditions only gain serious footing when stacks appear and can be held for long durations. Realistically you are going to dodge/block/evade or just plain cause a miss on more than a few of the AA attacks that come in projectile form, regardless of class. We can also assume that either on purpose or by accident, provided you play any of the 6 classes that come with Cleave / AoE attacks, you will be murdering clones left and right.

Torment is not going to get very many stacks and if it does, not for very long in this case.

Bleeding on the other hand often comes with 3 4 5 6 7 etc.. durations for almost any of its applications and its extremely easy to apply for any class. Its easy to stack up and easy to quickly restack when removed.
TL;DR

You as a player will have to worry more about Bleeding from Clone AA’s caused by Sharper Images (a trait mesmers have) than you will torment. If anything, cry about IE finally working with Staff and ask to nerf that, its going ot be hitting you a hell of a lot harder.

TY <3

Shhh, don’t talk about the IE changes…

IE change is just a bug fix so I don’t think ANet would like to break the trait now that they fixed it…

I believe your numbers are wrong. Scepter auto #1 = 2 sec of Torment, #2 = 4 sec of Torment. Clones generated apply 2 sec of Torment each.

Factor in another 5 stacks of Torment from Scepter #2…it’s easily 9-11 stacks of perma Torment. Add in MtD, and we’re looking at almost perma 12-14 stacks of Torment. It is quite strong.

Get a Necro on your team to coordinate Epidemic, and you pretty much have access to frequent 12-14 stacks of AoE Torment – on top of all the confusion, bleeding, and burning that the Mesmer can do.

My PU condi Mesmer already has potential to maintain 10-17 stacks of bleed on a single target (without Krait Runes), with perma burning on Staff. This latest change on IE will make it ridiculously easy to keep up to 20-25 stacks of bleed on a target.

Nice post OP, I feel somewhat better about the proposed change after reading it.
However I personally feel that conditions on AA’s is just not a good idea, but especially on the Mesmer class. There’s is no cleanse to relieve the pressure from a scepter Mesmer as with all clones out your 4 stacks of torment will be instantly re-applied. That is the issue. There’s no real counter play to a strategy as brainless as bringing out clones to keep permanent pressure on your target.

Its not just the torment itself mesmer has access to burning, bleeds, confusion and torment already. Add in the fact that pu condi mesmer survivability is through the roof and requires no effort from the user to play. Even compared to the thief equivalent SA condi pd thief you can kitten them up by avoiding, evading, blocking, and blinding there cloak and dagger.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

The reason it’s problematic is that the clone autos are essentially uncleansable torment at max power.

Caveats Drarnor doesn’t mention:

• Clones die if you sneeze in their general direction.
• Few Mesmers will leave clones alive for long or have space to do so.
• Scepter clones still do less damage than a simple staff clone, which also hits multiple targets and/or buffs friendlies.

In total, the reason this buff is so insignificant is because despite how much of a mountain people make out of this molehill, Scepter will still be a pretty terrible weapon, owing still to it’s terrible AA chain.
Just adding a miniscule amount of damage to it won’t help. The mechanics of it are broken, you don’t want to AA with it in the first place.

Carighan.6758:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

The reason it’s problematic is that the clone autos are essentially uncleansable torment at max power.

Caveats Drarnor doesn’t mention:

• Clones die if you sneeze in their general direction.
• Few Mesmers will leave clones alive for long or have space to do so.
• Scepter clones still do less damage than a simple staff clone, which also hits multiple targets and/or buffs friendlies.

In total, the reason this buff is so insignificant is because despite how much of a mountain people make out of this molehill, Scepter will still be a pretty terrible weapon, owing still to it’s terrible AA chain.
Just adding a miniscule amount of damage to it won’t help. The mechanics of it are broken, you don’t want to AA with it in the first place.

Caveats you failed to mention:

• Scepter Clones get produced incredibly rapidly, so if one dies, it is literally replaced within 2 seconds.
• Because they’re produced so rapidly, even a shatter is quickly rebuilt from. The alternative is that the Mesmer just keeps replacing the clones, letting the oldest ones die and trigger clone death traits.
• Staff clones are produced much more slowly, so relevant counterplay can be had from killing the clones.
• Staff clones either proc burning (multiple procs actually lower DPS as some damage never gets dealt, plus 4 stacks of Torment deals more damage than burning) or long duration bleeds, which can be cleansed meaningfully, or vulnerability, which nobody really cares about when facing a condition build.

Torment on Ether Blast is perfectly fine. Heck, I’m all for increasing the duration on that further! Torment on Ether Bolt, however, should not happen. There just is not a relevant counterplay option against scepter clones causing Torment. Cleansing the Torment is meaningless because it is back within 2 seconds and killing the clones is meaningless (and possibly dangerous!) because they are replaced so quickly.

The strength of Scepter clones is their sheer quantity. That’s enough of a strength.

Yes, the auto attack on Mesmer Scepter needs a buff. The clones from it, however, do not.

Condi memser already strong and easy to play even without pu. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PLs0cReY9A

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

The strength of Scepter clones is their sheer quantity. That’s enough of a strength.

Yes, the auto attack on Mesmer Scepter needs a buff. The clones from it, however, do not.

Hrm, yeah, kinda.
The clones were supposed to be intentionally the weakest of all clones (only surpassed in rubbishness by the PMage) due to being “more”. As in, this is the shatter-fodder weapon.

Only due to just how terrible the AA-chain is (and still will be), that never materialized. It seems they’re just dropped the idea now and making it a condi weapon like Necro scepter or so.

Mind you, I think the weapon is still kinda meh. Sure, if I go 100% full condi I might get a use out of it, but that means I just made a 1v1 character. Good to punish those roaming thieves and warriors, but Blackwater already does that. And just like that, it’ll be ~useless for winning anything, as conditions are pointless in larger fights or in PvE. Independent of how you put them up.

Carighan.6758:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

The strength of Scepter clones is their sheer quantity. That’s enough of a strength.

Yes, the auto attack on Mesmer Scepter needs a buff. The clones from it, however, do not.

Hrm, yeah, kinda.
The clones were supposed to be intentionally the weakest of all clones (only surpassed in rubbishness by the PMage) due to being “more”. As in, this is the shatter-fodder weapon.

Only due to just how terrible the AA-chain is (and still will be), that never materialized. It seems they’re just dropped the idea now and making it a condi weapon like Necro scepter or so.

Mind you, I think the weapon is still kinda meh. Sure, if I go 100% full condi I might get a use out of it, but that means I just made a 1v1 character. Good to punish those roaming thieves and warriors, but Blackwater already does that. And just like that, it’ll be ~useless for winning anything, as conditions are pointless in larger fights or in PvE. Independent of how you put them up.

This pretty much.

Hambow + 1 is still going to render this mesmer useless in tpvp

Engineer is still going to render this useless in Tpvp

Bunker guard is still going to render this useless in tpvp.

Conditions on a mesmer, in a game mode that supports teamwork is still going to fall short vs a character that can hold a point and stay alive without going into stealth every 15 seconds.

Lets not forget also that we have yet to see the necro buffs.

Solori.6025:

Carighan.6758:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

The strength of Scepter clones is their sheer quantity. That’s enough of a strength.

Yes, the auto attack on Mesmer Scepter needs a buff. The clones from it, however, do not.

Hrm, yeah, kinda.
The clones were supposed to be intentionally the weakest of all clones (only surpassed in rubbishness by the PMage) due to being “more”. As in, this is the shatter-fodder weapon.

Only due to just how terrible the AA-chain is (and still will be), that never materialized. It seems they’re just dropped the idea now and making it a condi weapon like Necro scepter or so.

Mind you, I think the weapon is still kinda meh. Sure, if I go 100% full condi I might get a use out of it, but that means I just made a 1v1 character. Good to punish those roaming thieves and warriors, but Blackwater already does that. And just like that, it’ll be ~useless for winning anything, as conditions are pointless in larger fights or in PvE. Independent of how you put them up.

This pretty much.

Hambow + 1 is still going to render this mesmer useless in tpvp

Engineer is still going to render this useless in Tpvp

Bunker guard is still going to render this useless in tpvp.

Conditions on a mesmer, in a game mode that supports teamwork is still going to fall short vs a character that can hold a point and stay alive without going into stealth every 15 seconds.

Lets not forget also that we have yet to see the necro buffs.

What about pd SA condition thiefs they are still useless at high lvl tpvp play, by your logic its ok if they get buff also.