Guild Wars 2

I realize this is opening a can of worms, but it has to get discussed some time.

After the last patch, it’s clear that Rangers did see results of their CDI. I’m confident that there are some things still on their way for them, although what those are, I have no clue. Regardless, it shows that the CDI works. Sure, some people are upset that their particular idea wasn’t implemented, but that happens regardless. A lot of the Ranger changes over the last few patches were things I saw get discussed in the CDI and related threads.

So, that brings up two questions:

1. Is it time for the next one?
2. Which profession should be next?

My personal opinions on both are “Yes” and “Necromancer,” since the original vote had Elementalist at #2 (ele shortly afterward got a number of buffs, upping its viability in all areas) and Necros at #3. That, and I main necro, which didn’t see much in the way of changes these last couple patches.

Eh most of the necro problems can be boiled down to 3 things

1: Conditions scale for crap (effects everyone)

2: Their support & self sustain line is a joke (helps with sustain only a little and bonuses to support are so small its not worth using)

3: Lack of a real ranged power build weapon (not saying it should be as nice as the dagger because everyone has better melee then ranged, but the staff is a hybrid weapon, scepter is pure conditions & the axe neither has the range or damage potential.)

That’s basically it other then some badly designed traits (which everyone has, counted 20+ on guardian after patch)

No, it is not time. The WvW community is doing their best to keep the devs wrapped up in the WvW unofficial CDI and we have another official CDI under way at the moment. After those are finished though, it may be time.

I am aware of your personal allegiances, but why, specifically, do you feel the necromancer needs the next CDI? They are extremely popular in WvW and almost every single team runs one in high end PvP right now. So I am curious why you feel they need one at the moment?

Ragnar the Rock.3174:

3: Lack of a real ranged power build weapon (not saying it should be as nice as the dagger because everyone has better melee then ranged, but the staff is a hybrid weapon, scepter is pure conditions & the axe neither has the range or damage potential.)

I kind of agree with this as well. It is kind of the same issue with engineers. It appears to me as if Anets idea was so designed around conditions with these two professions, they limited the direct damage builds too much. The main difference I see in my experience with both, is that engineers have better options for stacking might in this case.

dancingmonkey.4902:

No, it is not time. The WvW community is doing their best to keep the devs wrapped up in the WvW unofficial CDI and we have another official CDI under way at the moment. After those are finished though, it may be time.

Those are different teams of developers, though. Sure, there is (or at least, should be) communication between the them, but profession balance is a separate team from NPE which is a separate team from WvW development. Having multiple CDI’s going simultaneously should not be a problem if they each involve different people.

I am aware of your personal allegiances, but why, specifically, do you feel the necromancer needs the next CDI? They are extremely popular in WvW and almost every single team runs one in high end PvP right now. So I am curious why you feel they need one at the moment?

Generally speaking, I feel necros have a couple of design flaws (siphons not working in death shroud, for example) and also really need some love in the support deparment. If they aren’t to get boons (which I agree with!) make them better at applying the hindering conditions like Weakness and Chill. In PvE, this lack of support options is really noticeable. Give them something that they can contribute in PvE that nobody else really can.

It seems to me like the necro’s current design is so selfish that it just doesn’t play the same game as anyone else. Its buffing ability is limited to itself, it doesn’t get much combo field play, and on top of that, death shroud blocking healing makes them unable to recieve some allied help (granted, allowing all healing in death shroud would most likely be horribly OP with current environment).

Basically, I feel Necro needs the next CDI because how it plays is very much a “I’m going to take the ball and go play over there” profession. It just doesn’t interact like other professions do. It plays a game with all of the same rules as GW2, it can influence people playing GW2, but what necros are playing just doesn’t feel like the same game everyone else plays.

Of course, anyone who has a different opinion is welcome to voice it. This is a discussion thread, first and foremost.

I honestly think that Mesmers should be next in line for the CDI. I feel like Necros are in a decent position, yes they could use some adjustments in terms of how they are so vulnerable to eating CC.

Mesmers did get a decent buff I agree, however they don’t need to be necessarily buffed out the kazoo, the profession just needs to be opened up a bit more.

Currently, I see a few problems with the Mesmer.

#1: In WvW they are nothing more than veilbots, other than that they literally offer nothing that other classes can’t cover and do better. Their damage is pretty awful in zergs, their survivability is awful in zergs. They are the so called masters of interrupts and confusion and misdirection, yet this does not mean anything in anything above 20v20 gameplay.

#2: Still not in a good place tPvP wise. Other classes bunker better than mesmer, classes like thieves do their job better not to mention that as long as there is a thief on the opposing team it is going to be hell for a mesmer unless the team can peel for the mesmer. They have little in the way of sustain. Pretty much portal is the main pro they have going for them. They are pigeonholed into going full zerker because that is the only way they do damage or are effective.

#3: Builds need to be opened up. For example every shatter build goes at least 2/4/0/0/6, yet there are shatter related grandmaster traits in Chaos and Inspiration that get unused. There lacks a lot of diversity. Shatter build doesn’t need to be buffed persay, it is just different builds need to be introduced.

With that said, their condi builds need to be tweaked/adjusted. I would like to see confusion once again be a mainstake of the profession, but things like the torment they put out nerfed.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Those are different teams of developers, though. Sure, there is (or at least, should be) communication between the them, but profession balance is a separate team from NPE which is a separate team from WvW development. Having multiple CDI’s going simultaneously should not be a problem if they each involve different people.

Got a link to the list of who is on what team? Once upon a time, I had an idea of who was where. I know they have shifted teams lately. As well, they have had the same folks in the CDIs going back and forth between us and the team. I agree that it is well known that they have various teams working on various things, but I have no idea who is where now, and feel better keeping only a few CDIs going at once instead of multiple.

So regardless, we already have a few in progress. I disagree with you and feel they should wait. Especially after a lot of the variations in the builds in the tourney over this past weekend. I feel we should let the changes that are not even 2 weeks old yet, settle in.

Engis? What amazing buff did we get from that last patch? oh yeah, utility goggles now reveals. Which, has been nice fighting mesmers but its only useful with static discharge with a rifle and no real aoe good for zerging let alone group fights, which have more or less been war guard necro and ranger comps. Hell ill even throw thieves in the mix! Mesmers i can semi agree on also.

I’d much prefer we revisit the Ranger class with a developer/CM that can be bothered to read and interact with the community before we move on.

As much QQ as we’ve seen over the past week and a half, do you honestly consider the ranger improvements a success?

I think its too early to call it quits on ranger. The buffs it recieved are nice, but the pets still need work and it needs options for none glass cannon power builds.

Necromancers need a fix for PVE badly:

• Poor Sustain.
• No team support makes us the least desirable class for dungeons.
• Poor access to stability.
• No invulnerability, evade or block.
• The condition cap.
• Defiant.
• Our main team support mechanic, Blind, is ineffective against most bosses in the game, or they are highly resistant to it.
• Our traits and class mechanic are in direct conflict.
• Signet of Vampirism…. seriously…. look at it. Bow your heads in shame devs.
• Minion ai problems.
• Axe is rubbish.
• Less than a hand full of builds to choose from.
• An absolutely rubbish downed state, compared to classes that can revive themselves, or teleport away. We are dead meat if we go down.
• Lack of proper combo fields.
• Life stealing still sucks. It doesn’t suck enough life, it just sucks…. period.
• Boon stripping has little to no purpose in PVE.

killahmayne.9518:

I honestly think that Mesmers should be next in line for the CDI. I feel like Necros are in a decent position, yes they could use some adjustments in terms of how they are so vulnerable to eating CC.

Mesmers did get a decent buff I agree, however they don’t need to be necessarily buffed out the kazoo, the profession just needs to be opened up a bit more.

Currently, I see a few problems with the Mesmer.

#1: In WvW they are nothing more than veilbots, other than that they literally offer nothing that other classes can’t cover and do better. Their damage is pretty awful in zergs, their survivability is awful in zergs. They are the so called masters of interrupts and confusion and misdirection, yet this does not mean anything in anything above 20v20 gameplay.

#2: Still not in a good place tPvP wise. Other classes bunker better than mesmer, classes like thieves do their job better not to mention that as long as there is a thief on the opposing team it is going to be hell for a mesmer unless the team can peel for the mesmer. They have little in the way of sustain. Pretty much portal is the main pro they have going for them. They are pigeonholed into going full zerker because that is the only way they do damage or are effective.

#3: Builds need to be opened up. For example every shatter build goes at least 2/4/0/0/6, yet there are shatter related grandmaster traits in Chaos and Inspiration that get unused. There lacks a lot of diversity. Shatter build doesn’t need to be buffed persay, it is just different builds need to be introduced.

With that said, their condi builds need to be tweaked/adjusted. I would like to see confusion once again be a mainstake of the profession, but things like the torment they put out nerfed.

Mesmers don’t really need a “what can we tweak” CDI so much as a “how can we redo this class so it works on the same level as the other 7?” CDI..

Sure there is some minor differences between a PU Condition and a PU power but all mesmers builds boil down to falling under 2 houses

Do you Use the Class Mechanics fully? (do you press F1-F4)
Do you Ignore class mechanics to an extent? (Do you never or rarely hit F1-F4).

It’s over simplified but that’s really the core problem constraining mesmers in every game mode. 40% of the classes DPS is tied to clones and or Phantasms which don’t fair well outside of anything larger than a 3v3. And how many builds can you come up with when your class mechanic hinders you more than it helps in the majority of game modes?

I’d love to see more Guardian changes.
2/3 of the traits are bad. 2/3 of skills are not used.
How is this a “good spot”?

I think on the whole all classes have things that need improvement. But the biggest problem I’m noticing, is that the entire game simply suffers from an unbalanced class system (thanks in part to broken class mechanics), and a very shallow build system. On the whole, there is not even half the build variety that GW1 had on launch.

But I also notice that sigils and runes dominate builds too much, while a lot of elites (arguably what should be build defining) are rather weak-sauce. The downed state is also a big balance problem, since some downed skills are great, while others are clearly rubbish. Invulnerability is also a big problem, and I personally think they should never have introduced it. (No lessons learned from GW1’s Shadow Form and Obsidian Flesh?) Here is why:

If you decide that your game is all about clever use of dodging…. why introduce skills that basically are a free dodge, and then unequally distribute such skills across the classes? Why add sigils that provide an extra dodge, or skills that allow you to dodge more often, when again not all classes have access to those skills? This creates a situation in which all the classes are unbalanced by default, since they don’t have access to an equal amount of dodges. And other classes may be required to exchange DPS for a sigil of energy, to meet the same amount of dodges. Add over-the-top damage on bosses into the mix, and near useless armor/toughness, and you get the current unbalanced meta. It’s unbalanced on paper, and so it is also unbalanced in practice.

The importance of dodging has also shifted the game from clever skill use, to reflexes, which is not as good as I hoped it would be (it might even be considered worse). A lot of classes also suffer from clearly inferior weapons, that rarely see any use, and a ton of useless traits and skills. And lets not even get into the condition cap and defiant. None of the classes will ever be balanced, until these two are changed.

So I find it especially bind boggling that in light of all these problems, the September feature patch of all things decided to change things that weren’t broken to begin with (leveling up, starter areas) and make them worse, while not touching any of these problems that have plagued the game since launch!

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Necromancers need a fix for PVE badly:

Honestly I feel with Necromancers – and in fact, quite a lot of classes, but usually it only affects a specific subset of skills not virtually all of them – the issue is entirely on the opposite side.

On my Necro I feel like I have superb boon/condition control (given it’s only me), I have good endurance even in the most zerkery of specs and if enemies can be line-AEd I can do quite a bit with that. Large enemies I can multi-hit with those attacks, too.

Only problem is: Virtually nothing ever challenges my move set.
How often do you need to control boons on enemies? Do more than burst-purge your own party? Pull single enemies? Have enemies stand in a line instead of bunch up? Need to survive moments of high damage in a zerker setup individually? Etc, etc.

Toxic Alliance mobs were such a good start. Mordrem aren’t bad, either. If the whole of PvE would have more useful and frankly more believable mobs, I think Necromancers wouldn’t be off even remotely as bad as they are. And well, those changes (or rather, “fixes”) are necessary for lots of reasons, plenty skills on plenty classes don’t work well as a result of the simple stack&spank way PvE works.

Ragnar the Rock.3174:

2: Their support & self sustain line is a joke (helps with sustain only a little and bonuses to support are so small its not worth using)

I think this is what needs love the most.

I am going to get stoned for saying this, but we should not have a new CDI

“Oh noes Brandon why would you say that? Don’t you want Necromancers to be viable?”

Yes and no….

The issue with the last CDI was, despite Ranger needing some love, it was mostly a popularity contest… iirc, Elementalists were voted higher than Mesmers, despite the latter having to cope with many bugs in the class at that time, making it neigh unplayable… For PvE they slowly started to fade away in obscurity since Reflects can be brought by other classes, and TW could be swapped for more damage modifiers instead, and probably some other stuff in WvWvW or something like that, but I was informed that there is such a thing as GWEN – and this does not include an M for Mesmer…

Now why did the Elementalist get voted up so high? Simple – they had 1 build for PvP (does it sound familiar Mesmers?) and it was a build outclassed by many other builds/classes namely Fresh Air…
Still, Elementalist got some skills reverted and voila, back in the meta – good job Anet

Regardless of this, after the CDI – many people were complaining on how the votes were done, calling Anet biased and Rangers were dissatisfied with what they got (up untill recently)… This whole CDI thing got off more critique than anything…

There needs to be a line drawn where you want to pull ahead one out of eight classes to “rework/rebalance” since you will create seven other subcommunities who become mad, and one subcommunity demanding more…
Anet needs to communicate better all over the board – not one profession, all of them… I mean how wrong is this from a PvP perspective:

• Warriors are stuck using Longbow, crippling diversity majorly
• Guardians had one, maybe two support builds that fall out of the meta more and more – leaving them with nothing (DPS Guard seriously needs some more work)
• Mesmers are a burst or GTFO class
• Necromancers are “forced” to go Condi or Power Burst or GTFO
• Thieves are shoehorned within maybe one or two builds
• Engineers “only” have Nades/Bombs to play with – anything else is subpar at best
• Elementalists… well can do almost everything aside from running Cond. Damage… Dunno, to me they feel fine, maybe aside from “being forced” into arcanas
• Rangers still need work, especially on the AI part, but this is a problem with AI

The recent changes to Rangers have worked into getting some more obscure builds into PvP, but this has done nothing still for 80% of how people build their classes… I think most classes cope with having nearly no build diversity to them, so all of them need changes some way…

On Necromancers and PvE – sorry, I will be blunt now, but giving the Necromancer acces to a party utility, ultimately just giving the team more DPS, is not going to “fix” Necromancers… It will only turn this class into an option to take over a Warrior or something, but in the end, we will still do the same content we have done over the past 2 years only now with different utilities…

What needs to be looked at is of course how you can implement Necromancers better in PvE, but what needs to be changed is how encounters work, because Necromancer have an incredible niche they simply cannot fullfill within PvE

Good post Brandon. You make some really good points. And yes, of course giving the necromancer only access to more group utility is not enough to fix the class as a whole. Personally I feel that the entirety of PVE seems very much against control, conditions, and boon removal, which is what the necro is supposed to excel at. PVE needs a dramatic rework, and I’m glad I’m not the only one who notices that all classes have very limited build options. The game currently lacks the necessary depth and balance to make a lot of creative builds. But that’s a problem across all professions.

So, sadly, I agree with you Brandon. Lets not have a CDI. It turns into a popularity contest regardless. And the necromancer just isn’t very popular, thanks to 2 years of neglect. The CGI clearly does not benefit the necromancer.

And lets be honest, if the devs don’t know where the classes need work by now, they never will. They don’t need us to tell them what is wrong. And if they do, they only need to find our class sub forums (which apparently are about as hidden to them as the Lost Ark).

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

And lets be honest, if the devs don’t know where the classes need work by now, they never will. They don’t need us to tell them what is wrong. And if they do, they only need to find our class sub forums (which apparently are about as hidden to them as the Lost Ark).

Exactly, the whole CDI thing was nothing more than “Hey look at us caring” from Anet’s side, while the Ranger Community was doing nothing more than repeating what they have stated in their numerous threads…

What we need is better communication from the Developer’s side, because we are without a clue, and it slowly seems as if Anet is only listening to the numbers of people complaining about something, rather than listening to proper feedback…

Less popularity contests, more honesty and communication between players and Anet… it might be a lot to ask, but right now we got nothing at all…

I think we should have different CDIs for different game modes. WvWvW meta has been stale for 2 years and this is the one of the main reasons why that game mode is losing its popularity. Lack of good rewards (outside EotM), lack of new content (outside failed borderland ruins changes and EotM). I have not seen a single developer comment related to the WvWvW meta. All professions should feel welcome in WvWvW and have a specific role or two. Guardians, Warriors, Elementalists, Necromancers and Mesmers have a clearly defined role in zergs. Thieves have always been the most common roaming profession and gankers. The new patch made rangers viable in WvWvW and now some top WvWvW guilds are actually recruiting rangers. Engineers still lack a role, I might someday write a detailed engi WvWvW oriented CDI if I have time.

Necromancer is very strong WvWvW zergs. One of the meta characters and must have in any professional team.

I feel that necromancer is the worst profession in pve. Lack of cleave (now just 2 with dagger, why not 3?) and group support is a big problem. Necromancer has good damage and burst, but not the best in either of these (ele has both the best burst and dps, also amazing group support and versatility). I main an engineer and my necromancer has been mostly shelved. I know necromancer is very strong against engineers – pretty much a hard counter against condi engis, Necro should win with equal level of skill. Still I feel that necromancer could use some love when it comes to spvp/tpvp. I wouldn’t add any more damage or conditions, but give necromancers a bit more access to stability (via skills or traits), stun breaks and sustain by buffing the blood mastery trait line (which is weak). I think necromancer’s lack of mobility is an intentional design choice (each profession should have weaknesses as well). One must be very careful with these. Necromancer has amazing access to CC, boon corrupting, huge AoE damage with wells and marks, massive condition spam far outclassing the ability to cleanse the conditions for most professions. One should not at same time buff both necromacer’s CC, damage and sustain or the forums will be filled with QQ posts.

Somebody else commented that mesmers are weak in WvWvW and only an utility (portail, veil etc) bot. It depends on the player. Most smart mesmers stay in the flanks of their zerg and snipe those enemies who are not sticking to the blob together with thieves and rangers. Mesmer has always been a very strong dueling profession. Right now a properly built mesmer should win most other professions easily 1 vs 1. I know that clones and phantasms die very easily in zerg fights, but same holds true for all summons. Do you think a turret engineer is strong in WvWvW zerg fights? Or a beastmaster or spirit ranger?

Argh don’t remind me, loss of underwater combat instead of revitalizing and adding incentive to it still makes me sad.

as a necro and thief player, Thief needs work more than the necro. all of necro’s weapon sets are completely usable (though focus cast times should be reduced) while S/D thief jut got neutered, and S/P has always been a bit lackluster outside of PvE. Thieves have been nerfed constantly, they need work on some of their weapon sets.

Cam Ron.4170:

as a necro and thief player, Thief needs work more than the necro. all of necro’s weapon sets are completely usable (though focus cast times should be reduced) while S/D thief jut got neutered, and S/P has always been a bit lackluster outside of PvE. Thieves have been nerfed constantly, they need work on some of their weapon sets.

Dagger 2 should also get the rapidfire treatment (channeltime duration changed to 2,5 seconds).

I think necros have 2 flawed designs that most people do oversee: The utlilities. More precise:

1) Our best burst comes from our wells. Utility skills should give options and utlility, The pure power / burst possibilities should not come from utility skills alone, it should be included into the baseline skillset of the weapons. Utility skills should enhance and support that in certain ways, but not being the only way to make it work. We need this power in baseline

2) Spectral skills. SWalk and SArmor. No other profession has to sacrifice utlility skills to manage their profession mechanic, we do if we want to get a decent use out of our profession mechanic. It changes the worth of our profession mechanic extreme, up to a point where its almost necessary. We should get a proper management trough weapon skills, at the moment SArmor make a lot of things and builds work, making a huge impact in most builds. I think this power should be included into our baseline weapons or traits, spectral skills should still give a bit of lifeforce management, but the main focus of these skills should be the utility / support aspect. So many power and traits are centered around deathshroud, the power to do so should be included into the baseline really.

I think the next CDI should be for the dervish or ritualist

Seriously when are we going to get a new profession?

Brujeria.7536:

I think necros have 2 flawed designs that most people do oversee: The utlilities. More precise:

1) Our best burst comes from our wells. Utility skills should give options and utlility, The pure power / burst possibilities should not come from utility skills alone, it should be included into the baseline skillset of the weapons. Utility skills should enhance and support that in certain ways, but not being the only way to make it work. We need this power in baseline

2) Spectral skills. SWalk and SArmor. No other profession has to sacrifice utlility skills to manage their profession mechanic, we do if we want to get a decent use out of our profession mechanic. It changes the worth of our profession mechanic extreme, up to a point where its almost necessary. We should get a proper management trough weapon skills, at the moment SArmor make a lot of things and builds work, making a huge impact in most builds. I think this power should be included into our baseline weapons or traits, spectral skills should still give a bit of lifeforce management, but the main focus of these skills should be the utility / support aspect. So many power and traits are centered around deathshroud, the power to do so should be included into the baseline really.

I agree with point #2, but we can pull off some pretty decent burst without wells, and darned good DPS with Deathshroud + Dagger. as a power necro I feel my damage is fine, and I don’t run with wells. DS #5 -> DS #2 ->DS#1 -> dagger auto chain. Just make lich for last 30s or lower the cooldown to 150 please., ended up switching it for golem, which is lame as hell on power necro

My Power Necromancer does not use wells O.o

Cam Ron.4170:

Brujeria.7536:

I think necros have 2 flawed designs that most people do oversee: The utlilities. More precise:

1) Our best burst comes from our wells. Utility skills should give options and utlility, The pure power / burst possibilities should not come from utility skills alone, it should be included into the baseline skillset of the weapons. Utility skills should enhance and support that in certain ways, but not being the only way to make it work. We need this power in baseline

2) Spectral skills. SWalk and SArmor. No other profession has to sacrifice utlility skills to manage their profession mechanic, we do if we want to get a decent use out of our profession mechanic. It changes the worth of our profession mechanic extreme, up to a point where its almost necessary. We should get a proper management trough weapon skills, at the moment SArmor make a lot of things and builds work, making a huge impact in most builds. I think this power should be included into our baseline weapons or traits, spectral skills should still give a bit of lifeforce management, but the main focus of these skills should be the utility / support aspect. So many power and traits are centered around deathshroud, the power to do so should be included into the baseline really.

I agree with point #2, but we can pull off some pretty decent burst without wells, and darned good DPS with Deathshroud + Dagger. as a power necro I feel my damage is fine, and I don’t run with wells. DS #5 -> DS #2 ->DS#1 -> dagger auto chain. Just make lich for last 30s or lower the cooldown to 150 please., ended up switching it for golem, which is lame as hell on power necro

This kinda is the problem here: dagger isnt a burst weapon, it does not have a burst skillset, it just happens to have a strong AA. Same with deathshroud, yeah, LB can hit like a truck, especially with lighting and fire procs. But after all its just the AA, no other skill in DS servers a purpose of bursting. LB does not feel responsive, the dps is also rather low compared to its cast time and aftercast. #4 gives nice numbers on 5 targets, but its also during a very long channel time. The point is our current weapons are just so torn apart, they do work to a certain degree sure, but we just got something of everything in each of those. We would need some real dedicated meele Power DPS weapon, as well as a dedicated long range Power DPS weapon imho.

[quote=4436361;Brujeria.7536:]

This kinda is the problem here: dagger isnt a burst weapon, it does not have a burst skillset, it just happens to have a strong AA. Same with deathshroud, yeah, LB can hit like a truck, especially with lighting and fire procs. But after all its just the AA, no other skill in DS servers a purpose of bursting. LB does not feel responsive, the dps is also rather low compared to its cast time and aftercast. #4 gives nice numbers on 5 targets, but its also during a very long channel time. The point is our current weapons are just so torn apart, they do work to a certain degree sure, but we just got something of everything in each of those. We would need some real dedicated meele Power DPS weapon, as well as a dedicated long range Power DPS weapon imho.

True, its just the dagger aa, but it might be the second most potent single (now dual) target aa chain, second to thieves dagger. We don’t have much burst potential, but our aoe DPS is up there with the best, and we are probably are the second most survivable class with berserker amulet. So I agree that out burst is lackluster, but our DPS is pretty darn good as well is our survivability relative to other zerker classes.

Overall all I feel powerful on my power necro (more-so than thief since patch) and fear any significant buffs would put us over the top