Guild Wars 2

The balance blog post today was cool, but it’s tough to wait for details.

I’m sure it takes a bit of time to make the Skill Bar videos, but is it possible to get all the remaining professions done this week?

For sure, there’s not a ton of time to make changes in what will get delivered in the Feature Patch, but an extra week or two for people to ask questions or raise potential issues seems valuable.

If it’s just not possible to get all 4 videos done, would it at least be possible to get a list of the specific weapon skills, utilities, and traits that have planned changes for the two professions that don’t get covered on Friday.

Thx for all the great work – looking forward to the patch

Agreed. Our feedback will be (even more) meaningless for the last 2 professions at this rate.

To put this in perspective, if they don’t clump them together, the last two professions to be covered will be done on September 5th, giving us just 4 days to give feedback and for them to respond. That just isn’t enough time.

Bhawb.7408:

To put this in perspective, if they don’t clump them together, the last two professions to be covered will be done on September 5th, giving us just 4 days to give feedback and for them to respond. That just isn’t enough time.

That’s why I think the last 2 will be guardian and ele since they, IMO, are in good places and should see only buffs to underused things and other small tweaks both up and down on whatever skills.

Probably next are mesmer and necro so we can give some feedback.

Roe.3679:

Bhawb.7408:

To put this in perspective, if they don’t clump them together, the last two professions to be covered will be done on September 5th, giving us just 4 days to give feedback and for them to respond. That just isn’t enough time.

That’s why I think the last 2 will be guardian and ele since they, IMO, are in good places and should see only buffs to underused things and other small tweaks both up and down on whatever skills.

Probably next are mesmer and necro so we can give some feedback.

i can see it now: necro gets regeneration while in death shroud. yay?

Lightsbane.9012:

Roe.3679:

Bhawb.7408:

To put this in perspective, if they don’t clump them together, the last two professions to be covered will be done on September 5th, giving us just 4 days to give feedback and for them to respond. That just isn’t enough time.

That’s why I think the last 2 will be guardian and ele since they, IMO, are in good places and should see only buffs to underused things and other small tweaks both up and down on whatever skills.

Probably next are mesmer and necro so we can give some feedback.

i can see it now: necro gets regeneration while in death shroud. yay?

Siphon scaling gets buffed to .5% from .4%. Calling it.

Roe.3679:

Bhawb.7408:

To put this in perspective, if they don’t clump them together, the last two professions to be covered will be done on September 5th, giving us just 4 days to give feedback and for them to respond. That just isn’t enough time.

That’s why I think the last 2 will be guardian and ele since they, IMO, are in good places and should see only buffs to underused things and other small tweaks both up and down on whatever skills.

Probably next are mesmer and necro so we can give some feedback.

Not sure about Guardians, but eles have A LOT of rubbish that no one uses.

Lightsbane.9012:

Roe.3679:

Bhawb.7408:

To put this in perspective, if they don’t clump them together, the last two professions to be covered will be done on September 5th, giving us just 4 days to give feedback and for them to respond. That just isn’t enough time.

That’s why I think the last 2 will be guardian and ele since they, IMO, are in good places and should see only buffs to underused things and other small tweaks both up and down on whatever skills.

Probably next are mesmer and necro so we can give some feedback.

i can see it now: necro gets regeneration while in death shroud. yay?

Is this a quip about Unholy Sanctuary?

Axialbloom.8109:

Roe.3679:

Bhawb.7408:

To put this in perspective, if they don’t clump them together, the last two professions to be covered will be done on September 5th, giving us just 4 days to give feedback and for them to respond. That just isn’t enough time.

That’s why I think the last 2 will be guardian and ele since they, IMO, are in good places and should see only buffs to underused things and other small tweaks both up and down on whatever skills.

Probably next are mesmer and necro so we can give some feedback.

Not sure about Guardians, but eles have A LOT of rubbish that no one uses.

Don’t you worry, we have plenty of that garbage too. xD

Mark Katzbach.9084:

We will not be able to cram the last four into this friday’s skill bar. The segment for this week has already been edited and finalized, but the following skill bar has not yet been recorded, and there’s not enough time to record and edit the final segment to fit it into this friday.

Any hint on which will be discussed this Friday then?

Axialbloom.8109:

Agreed. Our feedback will be (even more) meaningless for the last 2 professions at this rate.

I do not see a problem with that. All of the feedback would be pure speculation anyway. And if history hold true, it will be nothing but a mass of post with back handed remarks and covert insults in which every other posters claims how bad the ideas are and how there suggestions are better, all based on pure speculation and inexperienced assumption.

Mark Katzbach.9084:

We’ll be covering mesmer and elementalist this week.

:D

Thank you for the quick and forward response! Can’t wait to see it!

So, Necromancer, one of the worst professions atm and in need of some of the largest changes… is being pushed off till the last possible week with absolutely no time to realistically give feedback on the changes. I just don’t see the logic in this, there is no way you can respond to any feedback given on the last two professions with this, and while I doubt its being done on purpose, it really gets the feel of “hope you like the changes because you’re stuck with them for 6 months”.

I understand if its too late, but this really needs to be done better next time. If you are going to do something like this, then why would you push a profession that was voted as one of the most in-need of changes till the very last second? In the future, give yourself more time.

Bhawb.7408:

To put this in perspective, if they don’t clump them together, the last two professions to be covered will be done on September 5th, giving us just 4 days to give feedback and for them to respond. That just isn’t enough time.

Assuming that this is because the last classes had the least contentious changes, it would imply that Guardians and Necromancers are the closest to the balancing point that ANet wants them to be at.

So uh. Make of that what you will, I guess.

To be fair, though, guardians are in a good place

Sarrs.4831:

Bhawb.7408:

To put this in perspective, if they don’t clump them together, the last two professions to be covered will be done on September 5th, giving us just 4 days to give feedback and for them to respond. That just isn’t enough time.

Assuming that this is because the last classes had the least contentious changes, it would imply that Guardians and Necromancers are the closest to the balancing point that ANet wants them to be at.

So uh. Make of that what you will, I guess.

To be fair, though, guardians are in a good place

Its fair enough in regards to guardian. And to be honest ele probably would of been fine there aswell. I always felt people were being stupid and overdramatic by saying Anet hates necros (or that they dont play them). But to be honest its really starting to seem that way. I cant really give anet the benefit of the doubt anymore. Its been constant disappointment since release.

Bhawb.7408:

So, Necromancer, one of the worst professions atm and in need of some of the largest changes… is being pushed off till the last possible week with absolutely no time to realistically give feedback on the changes. I just don’t see the logic in this, there is no way you can respond to any feedback given on the last two professions with this, and while I doubt its being done on purpose, it really gets the feel of “hope you like the changes because you’re stuck with them for 6 months”.

I understand if its too late, but this really needs to be done better next time. If you are going to do something like this, then why would you push a profession that was voted as one of the most in-need of changes till the very last second? In the future, give yourself more time.

Given Anet’s history in the amount of time they spend on Necro discussion/coverage, not only am I not surprised, I would have thought something was wrong if they had in fact deviated from the norm.

Well I don’t get it.

Mesmers will get some fixes that will break even more things, while the profession will still suck for PvE and WvW as well as regarding the meta in PvP.
Shatter is not going to get anywhere and GM traits that were terribad when introduced will just be bad and noone will still use them.

We would have been good with just four days till patch, as most of us have given up anyways.

We would have been the perfect match for necros on the last date…

Thx much for the answer! I know it’s hard to coordinate this kind of communication especially as a release comes down to the finish line.

I don’t think it’s fair to conclude that the order of revealing the profession changes means anything about the scope of the changes.

Thanks again for all the hard work

Seriously Anet devs? How can you live with yourself sometimes?

Do you guys have ANY idea how niche and alienating it is to main a necromancer for most of the game’s content?

You already designed a profession that is DISCRIMINATED against by mere random PUG groups in PvE, that is also a joke for experienced players to fight against in PvE. Necromancers certainly need a lot of help, and the dagger-cleave and axe fluidity and survival utilities are certainly a great start, but feedback should be considered.

Honestly, it is total BULLkitten, that you are doing Elementalist over Necromancer first. The necromancer needs changes MUCH more drastic than the ele does, and we need the time to give you guys feedback so you don’t kitten up our class any further.

Sorry to rage at you guys, but honestly I feel like many of the things you’ve done to the Necromancer, (and mesmer to an extent), or have FAILED to do or fix, is getting out of hand and this is just another straw thats going to break the camel’s back.

I honestly feel like you guys like Warriors and Guardians far more than Necromancers, Mesmers, or even Rangers, based on mere energy levels when discussing ready up changes throughout the past. And I can’t stand for this any more, do you have any idea what it feels like to play a class that the game maker doesn’t seem to want the best for?

ITT: Necromancer players sounding like impatient whiny children. TBH I’d rather have Guardian and Necro last, so Anet can actually listen to some possible suggestions on the class sub-forums before they even record what they’re going to do with the class. Aside from the short readable preview on the front page. As much as feedback goes, when was the last time you’ve seen the one thing not wanted on the class taken back and not being released, based on feedback?

Lucentfir.7430:

ITT: Necromancer players sounding like impatient whiny children. TBH I’d rather have Guardian and Necro last, so Anet can actually listen to some possible suggestions on the class sub-forums before they even record what they’re going to do with the class. Aside from the short readable preview on the front page. As much as feedback goes, when was the last time you’ve seen the one thing not wanted on the class taken back and not being released, based on feedback?

Mesmers with Deceptive Evasion changes.

I do wish that these previews were all done with significantly more time before the patch release so that the feedback on the last two professions (regardless of who they are) could actually be taken into account.

Guess the feedback from Guardians and Necros doesn’t matter this time.

Lucentfir.7430:

ITT: Necromancer players sounding like impatient whiny children. TBH I’d rather have Guardian and Necro last, so Anet can actually listen to some possible suggestions on the class sub-forums before they even record what they’re going to do with the class. Aside from the short readable preview on the front page. As much as feedback goes, when was the last time you’ve seen the one thing not wanted on the class taken back and not being released, based on feedback?

Because months upon months upon months of feedback wasn’t enough? There are threads on a nearly daily basis that give feedback on what to change, I host a near-weekly podcast with an hour of content on what to change, reddit has info on what to change. At some point they need to tell us their plans so we can give them feedback.

Guys, it’s because the necro changes are still being worked on… :>

I’m fine with that as long as they turn out to be well thought through.
If they turn out to be terrible, on the other hand…

leman.7682:

Guys, it’s because the necro changes are still being worked on… :>

I’m fine with that as long as they turn out to be well thought through.
If they turn out to be terrible, on the other hand…

Infect me with your optimism marv!

I’ll chime in here with other the other Necros to say… 1) I’m not surprised at all (the tiny description in the blog post is underwhelming even for Necro balance), and 2) I’m still disappointed.

It’s almost as if the dude who designed and was all pumped about the Necro at release left the company, and no one else really knows what to do with the class or cares. But hey, once again I’m not surprised.

leman.7682:

Guys, it’s because the necro changes are still being worked on… :>

I’m fine with that as long as they turn out to be well thought through.
If they turn out to be terrible, on the other hand…

If you’re correct on that:

It is still insulting enough that they would put off the class regarded as trash tier for 2/3rds of the game to the end, and work on changes for better off classes like thief or warrior before us.

I mean look at the DnT dungeon tournament that Anet supported with prize gems for the winners. Necro was the only class that wasn’t in ANY team for that tournament.

Unless their ostrich heads really are buried in the sand, they really can’t be ignorant to the state of the necro, which is why working on necros last when they’re obviously higher priority than anything other than mesmer or ranger, is nothing but an insult to the profession.

Phenn.5167:

It’s almost as if the dude who designed and was all pumped about the Necro at release left the company, and no one else really knows what to do with the class or cares. But hey, once again I’m not surprised.

I think that this dude is Jonathan Sharp and he is still around, but I don’t know if he hadn’t lost the touch with the game so that his child (the necro) does not longer fit in the game.

Bhawb.7408:

Lucentfir.7430:

ITT: Necromancer players sounding like impatient whiny children. TBH I’d rather have Guardian and Necro last, so Anet can actually listen to some possible suggestions on the class sub-forums before they even record what they’re going to do with the class. Aside from the short readable preview on the front page. As much as feedback goes, when was the last time you’ve seen the one thing not wanted on the class taken back and not being released, based on feedback?

Because months upon months upon months of feedback wasn’t enough? There are threads on a nearly daily basis that give feedback on what to change, I host a near-weekly podcast with an hour of content on what to change, reddit has info on what to change. At some point they need to tell us their plans so we can give them feedback.

Does it really matter what info is released first? One thing about these forums is it will never be pleased. If Anet decided to throw out necro changes this week people will still whine and cry how something wasn’t buffed or they deserve more than that, or changes aren’t going to do nothing GG, Or all the changes are useless to individual belief. So does it really matter at all when changes are going to be previewed? You’ll get the preview eventually so please be patient necro players instead of preaching and spewing out comments like “How can you live with yourself Anet?” “Anet doesn’t care about necros and only care about X class more.”

That did happen to Robert Hrouda, who was very vocal about his love for the ranger. He left last august and ranger changes or even dev attention stalled since then.

Lucentfir.7430:

Does it really matter what info is released first? One thing about these forums is it will never be pleased. If Anet decided to throw out necro changes this week people will still whine and cry how something wasn’t buffed or they deserve more than that, or changes aren’t going to do nothing GG, Or all the changes are useless to individual belief. So does it really matter at all when changes are going to be previewed? You’ll get the preview eventually so please be patient necro players instead of preaching and spewing out comments like “How can you live with yourself Anet?” “Anet doesn’t care about necros and only care about X class more.”

Would it matter if this wasn’t according to ANet themselves all about feedback? No. But the ENTIRE POINT of this balance thing, according to ANet, was to break it down so they could get feedback. You’re telling me 4 days is long enough for players to voice opinion, discuss, ANet to internally discuss as well, and then implement changes? Because it isn’t. So either they stop acting like this is at all about feedback, or they acknowledge they made a huge mistake by forcing two professions to have no chance of feedback.

Lucentfir.7430:

Does it really matter what info is released first? One thing about these forums is it will never be pleased. If Anet decided to throw out necro changes this week people will still whine and cry how something wasn’t buffed or they deserve more than that, or changes aren’t going to do nothing GG, Or all the changes are useless to individual belief. So does it really matter at all when changes are going to be previewed? You’ll get the preview eventually so please be patient necro players instead of preaching and spewing out comments like “How can you live with yourself Anet?” “Anet doesn’t care about necros and only care about X class more.”

It definitely does matter what info is released first, because we can discuss contentious changes and possibly point out obvious flaws in ANet’s plans.

A lazy example; there have been a huge number of posts about how Adrenaline is being changed, in how it operates on failed attacks and how it operates out of combat, all of which is valuable discussion.

What if Necromancers get a fundamental change to life force, on the level that Warriors are getting, and we only get 4 days to tell them it’s a horrible idea? If ANet has a decent patching procedure, the patch is sitting on their servers waiting to launch- such a change would be impossible to change in time for release. And then… We’re stuck, for 5 months, with a broken Life Force system, because ANet only makes balance changes with every feature patch.

The real problem is that necros have been the worst pve class in the game since launch, and have only been widely wanted on pvp teams for about a month (post dhummfire patch till the dhummfire nerf). That means in 2 years of this game necros have been bottom tier in 2 of the 3 game types for most of the time, and anet hasnt done anything to fix it.

Mark Katzbach.9084:

Guys, there’s no conspiracy regarding the order that these were done in. Karl and I both agreed that doing them alphabetically every time wasn’t really fair and settled on a somewhat random order. Every couple weeks, I ask Karl, “What 2 professions do you want to talk about this time?” he tells me and we record them.

There isn’t anything more behind the decision other than sometimes considering how long each profession might go on for so we don’t end up putting two together that are either very long or very short.

That’s fine, someone has to go last and that’s understandable. However, last place didn’t have to result in having no meaningful time for discussion. Last place didn’t have to occur weeks after the signups for the largest prize pool to ever grace GW2 play (at least as far as I’m aware). Last place could have just meant a slightly longer wait, but now it means no feedback at all, and an entire profession being fully screwed over because no one will want to take them with such a high risk of them still completely underperforming after changes that we known basically nothing about.

Why? What reasonable feed back do you feel you can offer about a change you have yet to experience?

Your making a lot of claims here, such as claiming the necromancer is “one of the worst professions atm and in need of some of the largest changes” which is only an unsubstantiated opinion, but your are continuing to push it as your agenda, as if it will convince them to push the day of the updates back just you please you specifically.

Which seems odd based on the way you supported it as the “N” in “GWEN” in that discussion. As I see it, there is no need to troll the Devs simply because they didn’t chose to put this videos in an order that makes you personally happy.

If you truly felt it was about honest feedback as a whole, you wouldn’t be arguing about how much a specific class has to give feedback, you would be arguing about a limited time for feedback regardless. But you make it clear it has more to do about it being your main profession then about feedback.

Mark Katzbach.9084:

We’ll be covering mesmer and elementalist this week.

That means your saving the best and most drastic changes for last right?……….. RIGHT?! ………. GUARDIANS?…………. RIIIIIIIGHT!?

coglin.1867:

Why? What reasonable feed back do you feel you can offer about a change you have yet to experience?

Depends what they say.

For example, saying “damage now gets split half and half between life force and health, but healing in death shroud is unrestricted”, that’s a really, really big change. There needs to be discussion on that sort of thing and, frankly, I would be entirely against such a hypothetical change.

Alternatively , if they said “siphons are getting their scaling buffed so now you can get a max of 7 health per siphon instead of 6”, they need to be smacked upside the head and told “more.”

And a Necro being the worst PvE profession is not news, colgin. While I doubt this patch will change that, it is not Bhawb’s “agenda” to state that.

coglin.1867:

Your making a lot of claims here, such as claiming the necromancer is “one of the worst professions atm and in need of some of the largest changes” which is only an unsubstantiated opinion, but your are continuing to push it as your agenda, as if it will convince them to push the day of the updates back just you please you specifically.

Because we’ve seen so many Necromancers in the PvE tournaments right? Bunch of Necromancers were in that All-Star voting weren’t they? ToL completely being dominated by Necromancers comps?

Reality is the only place Necromancer is well off in is WvW zerging. This is an objective fact that can be seen by the desire to bring Necromancers into content, how much they are played, at what level, etc.

I’m not asking for them to buff us to insane levels, I’m only asking that we get the reasonable consideration that they said was the point of these previews. This was supposed to be about feedback, they have given no room for feedback.

Axialbloom.8109:

Agreed. Our feedback will be (even more) meaningless for the last 2 professions at this rate.

This isn’t really a fair statement to make. Development times are much longer than most people realize. No, 2 weeks isn’t enough time to read feedback and make changes, but then 8 weeks is on the short side too. The most that would ever be changed in this time frame is a slight tweaking of numbers; the actual functional changes being made won’t change. Any feedback dictating a large change to anything they’ve announced won’t be happening until the next patch.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

And a Necro being the worst PvE profession is not news, colgin.

You are correct. It is not news. It is your opinion, that you are trying to imply is a fact. Yet the mesmers feel they are in the worst shape and need the most bug fixes, thus are the worst off. Then the rangers feel they are the least viable in all 3 game modes and least wanted in groups in PvE, and they are the worst off profession, and so on and so forth.

Bhawb.7408:

ToL completely being dominated by Necromancers comps?

Well by using that metric, there are 2 professions that were used less then necros in the last ToL, so your working against yourself in this statements.

Bhawb.7408:

Reality is the only place Necromancer is well off in is WvW zerging. This is an objective fact that can be seen by the desire to bring Necromancers into content, how much they are played, at what level, etc.

Objective fact?…….Lets go with subjective opinion.

From what I read here, the rangers do not even have one game mode they are well off in. But that is also opinion.

“Looking to the left of the tour bus you will see the elusive dev”. “This creature will almost never show it’s face in the public forums, so it is best to approach it with caution.”

Seriously it may well be that us necros were just chosen to be last, something we are well used to by now, but I am quickly running out of hope for our class. Even if you were to implement one good disengage, block, evade etc, I could see myself becoming more enamored by our class.

Although even you must admit that every time you mention the necro, you tend to gloss over the reasons for the changes, and it is beginning to seem as though you use a dart board to decide on what to try next for us.

If we are to be discussed in the final week, PLEASE for the love of the class put some logical reasons behind the changes and try not to gloss over it as quick as you can. Some of us play this class and would like to see that you actually care about it too.

@Coglin

Its pretty much agreed upon by all top players in both PvP and PvE that necro is in the bottom spot for both gametypes. Yes its an opinion. But its pretty accurate.

Bhawb.7408:

coglin.1867:

Your making a lot of claims here, such as claiming the necromancer is “one of the worst professions atm and in need of some of the largest changes” which is only an unsubstantiated opinion, but your are continuing to push it as your agenda, as if it will convince them to push the day of the updates back just you please you specifically.

Because we’ve seen so many Necromancers in the PvE tournaments right? Bunch of Necromancers were in that All-Star voting weren’t they? ToL completely being dominated by Necromancers comps?

Reality is the only place Necromancer is well off in is WvW zerging. This is an objective fact that can be seen by the desire to bring Necromancers into content, how much they are played, at what level, etc.

I’m not asking for them to buff us to insane levels, I’m only asking that we get the reasonable consideration that they said was the point of these previews. This was supposed to be about feedback, they have given no room for feedback.

Well, maybe there is no feedback. When have they ever changed something that they planned to do based on feedback? (deceptive evasion?) I can not think of any other instances. Just like the CDI maybe this is a nice way of making us think we really have a say and that they implement something called “feedback”

spoj.9672:

@Coglin

Its pretty much agreed upon by all top players in both PvP and PvE that necro is in the bottom spot for both gametypes. Yes its an opinion. But its pretty accurate.

No, it isn’t.

Who do you define as the unanimous top players in PvE? Where is the poll they took on this? Why does everyone else seem to think they feel the ranger is least valuable/desired in the three game modes?

They also changed their plan for weakening shroud nerf based on feedback. They do make adjustments on relatively short notice if it is necessary. 4 days is a bit too short though. But the biggest issue is not the feedback its the fact that there is a major tourny coming up and necro is in a bad positon. People dont know if the upcoming changes will make necro worth risking and signing up.

dancingmonkey.4902:

spoj.9672:

@Coglin

Its pretty much agreed upon by all top players in both PvP and PvE that necro is in the bottom spot for both gametypes. Yes its an opinion. But its pretty accurate.

No, it isn’t.

Who do you define as the unanimous top players in PvE? Where is the poll they took on this? Why does everyone else seem to think they feel the ranger is least valuable/desired in the three game modes?

Ranger is 2nd least desired. Ask anyone in a top PvE guild. Scratch that, ask anyone in a speedclearing guild.

Torsailr.8456:

Axialbloom.8109:

Agreed. Our feedback will be (even more) meaningless for the last 2 professions at this rate.

This isn’t really a fair statement to make. Development times are much longer than most people realize. No, 2 weeks isn’t enough time to read feedback and make changes, but then 8 weeks is on the short side too. The most that would ever be changed in this time frame is a slight tweaking of numbers; the actual functional changes being made won’t change. Any feedback dictating a large change to anything they’ve announced won’t be happening until the next patch.

Do you play dota2? They tweak and drasticaly change things faster than 2 weaks if needed.

dancingmonkey.4902:

spoj.9672:

@Coglin

Its pretty much agreed upon by all top players in both PvP and PvE that necro is in the bottom spot for both gametypes. Yes its an opinion. But its pretty accurate.

No, it isn’t.

Who do you define as the unanimous top players in PvE? Where is the poll they took on this? Why does everyone else seem to think they feel the ranger is least valuable/desired in the three game modes?

Sorry to but in, but Spoj is in one of the best PvE speedclear guilds on EU, and wrote comprehensive guides about the necromancer class in regards to PvE, that have been featured on Dulfy. He knows what hes talking about in regards to the highest level of PvE in GW2.

And as many of us have said multiple times in this thread, no necros were taken for DnT’s dungeon tournament, however a small number of rangers were. The overall community may feel that rangers are the worst, but in PvE they have cleave and post might buffing, which necromancers don’kittens just bad pugs give them a bad reputation when they don’t know their meta spec. Ranger is roughly on the level of mesmer and necromancer in high end PvP, but it depends on whther the team would rather have a spirit rez, conditionfear spam, portals, or just a staff ele to win team fights for that slot from what I know of tpvp. And no serious GvG guild has EVER consistently brought a ranger into their composition, because longbow gank is a one trick pony that is hard countered by enemy thieves, and everything else they offer is outclassed by what a warrior guardian or ele could do.