…and add a new mechanic to counter them.
The problem with conditions is that they cannot be balanced in their current form. The reason is that we really have two completely different classes of skill coexisting on the same gameplay mechanic.
This means that counters vs DPS Conditions (bleed, poison, burn, torment) cannot be balanced, because they would become OP when used vs Control Conditions (cripple, chill, imobilize, stun, daze). Either cleansing is powerful enough to counter DPS Condis and then makes CC uselesss, or it’s balanced vs CC and makes DPS condi’s impossible to counter.
It also makes CC condis impossible to balance because of the Condition Duration stat. CC has to be balanced around the existance of this stat- meaning that CC Condis are useful to Condi DPS builds and extremely UP (fully half as effective, assuming comparison with +100% duration) for everyone else.
One solution I’ve seen is to make conditions rarer and more powerful, so they can be used strategically and countered strategically. Although I like this idea a lot, the problem with this is that it eliminates entire swaths of builds and gear that are based on DOT Conditions. With the number of players this would affect, I doubt that Anet will do this.
The alternative is to separate CC and DPS conditions into separate mechanics. This gives the developers the ability to target one mechanic or the other for balance, without producing a see-saw “condi suck / condi rule” bouncing effect. It improves gear, stat, trait and class balance accross the board by allowing targeted changes and reducing unintentional effects.
PS: Anyone know which category confusion fits in? That condition is completely bonkered.
(edited by Rhyse.8179)
This problem would easily be solved if we had more specific condition removal. Skills that remove poison, skills that remove bleeding, etc.
Right now we have way too many generic “removes a condition” abilities.
This problem would easily be solved if we had more specific condition removal. Skills that remove poison, skills that remove bleeding, etc.
Right now we have way too many generic “removes a condition” abilities.
It would not, infact it would make it worst. Some condition builds rely on Bleeds, for example Duelist Mesmer. People running Bleed removal would hardcounter this build easily, but be in trouble against an Engineer who relies mostly on Burning. But in turn the Engineer gets hardcountered by someone who has Burn removal.
How do you balance that? Would Bleeds be stronger to offset getting hardcountered sometimes? Then those without bleed removal get screwed. Or are bleeds just average, then the Bleed build is really bad because sometimes it gets hardcountered and sometimes its just average.
The whole removal of damaging conditions is why we have such a big balance problem to begin with.
Damaging conditions should be unremoveable and be a reliable form of damage. Then you can balance the damage of damage conditions and builds around a reliable form of damage.
I’ve advocated a split in Conditions for a while now.
Where one is simply Damage (Burn, Bleed, Confusion, Torment, Poison (seperated from healing debuff)) and the other is utility (Weakness, Vulnerability, Blind, Chill, Cripple, Immobilize, Toxic(replacement for healing debuff))
Basicly seperating conditions in two catagories, those that just inflict damage and those that just inflict a debuff/handicap.
Altough by no means do i believe these changes alone would be enough
Guild Wars 1 had two separate systems for DoTs – one, similar to other MMOs – Hexes, just spells modified by your attributes/abilities, placed upon targets
And Conditions, which apart from Control effects had stale health degeneration+effect depending on what dmg condi it was (Burning, Bleeding, Poison, Sickness).
That was a really good scheme. If they only erased damaging conditions and turned them into Hexes (spell DoTs), leaving Conditions as control effects/debuffs, game could be more healthy.
I believe there’s one reason why they dumped hexes. They wanted GW2 to beless depending on your team, to be able to cleanse everything with 1 skill and make it simpler. That didn’t work out.
See now. Conditions like cripple or chill are almost useless in kiting. Any condition removal cleanses them.
Since cripple is a pitful conditions, classes that need to kite are pushed into extreme, powerful effects like stuns, direct teleports, long immobilizes to keep up/kite the foe. Why Thief should even bother with crippling his enemy, effect that is cleansed on fly, if he can directly teleport to target with lower cost?
I say, don’t bring Hexes.
But separate conditions, same like OP suggested.
One kind of removals for damaging/debuff conditions like Blind, Weakness, Poison, Bleed, Torment, Cripple, Burning, Confusion, Vun
And second type of removals for movement imparing effects like Chill (although it’s recharge effect could be a problem), Cripple, Immobilize.
That would really cure the game and so many professions and builds, especially Power ones.
Also, would be a reason to nerf that extreme mobility/porting all around.
Unless it happens, Conditions will always be a problem
This problem would easily be solved if we had more specific condition removal. Skills that remove poison, skills that remove bleeding, etc.
Right now we have way too many generic “removes a condition” abilities.
It would not, infact it would make it worst. Some condition builds rely on Bleeds, for example Duelist Mesmer. People running Bleed removal would hardcounter this build easily, but be in trouble against an Engineer who relies mostly on Burning. But in turn the Engineer gets hardcountered by someone who has Burn removal.
This is false.
A thief with Hide and shadows + Pain response has “specific” condition removal against the DoT conditions however this only reduces the damage he takes and he is still suspectible to DoT damage due to the cooldown of his removal vs the frequency of application.
An Elementalist with Stop drop and Roll can remove Burning and Chill, however this is a hollow victory due to 1 other attacks and conditions coming in a 10s period of the ICD and 2) reapplication.
No one survives off applying 1 condition, which Sword warriors at Launch can tell you, or the fact that Eles have the highest Burn application in the game but can’t break into mainstream as a condition class off burn alone and inconsistent bleed application.
What seperating DoT from control conditions does is create situations where you are immobilized and your condi removal can’t do anything because it only works on bleeds/burns/poisons so you are vulnerable, and vise versa when you are burning to death but Roll for Initiative only stops snares so you burn.
On the positive side, it allows you to reliably get specific conditions, which doesn’t remove them as threats because if you look at the thief, everything but Withdraw has a rather sizeable cooldown.
Easy fix, count immobilize, cripple, and fear as CC, give the players access to a lesser form of Defiant. The lesser form of defiant should be that for every CC that hits within a certain timeframe (maybe 10 seconds), the next CC has a 25% chance of failing. If another CC goes on during that time, another stack is added and it resets. Meaning up to 4 stacks of slight immunity, each providing a 25% resistance to CC, so the 4th will provide full CC immunity for 10 seconds. That fixes the CC spam in sPvP and WvW. Because then if they try to knockdown/fear/cripple/immobilize/push/pull spam you, they’re only going to end up either failing them or making you immune to all that and wasting cooldowns in the process.
This problem would easily be solved if we had more specific condition removal. Skills that remove poison, skills that remove bleeding, etc.
Right now we have way too many generic “removes a condition” abilities.
This is one solution. It has two main problems:
-It makes the game more complicated, in a bad way, for the player, by forcing them to keep track of multiple skills and exactly what list of conditions they do and don’t deal with.
-It forces the Devs to change every relevant cleansing skill when making balance changes. This is more work for them, and also Errors Will be Made.
I’ll take whatever solution we can get, but this is the less-optimal approach.
(edited by Rhyse.8179)
Easy fix, count immobilize, cripple, and fear as CC, give the players access to a lesser form of Defiant. The lesser form of defiant should be that for every CC that hits within a certain timeframe (maybe 10 seconds), the next CC has a 25% chance of failing. If another CC goes on during that time, another stack is added and it resets. Meaning up to 4 stacks of slight immunity, each providing a 25% resistance to CC, so the 4th will provide full CC immunity for 10 seconds. That fixes the CC spam in sPvP and WvW. Because then if they try to knockdown/fear/cripple/immobilize/push/pull spam you, they’re only going to end up either failing them or making you immune to all that and wasting cooldowns in the process.
This is the classic Diminishing Return fix to excessive CC in pvp and it has it’s ups and downs. It doesn’t matter for this thread though, because this is not the issue I’m adressing. I’m concerned with the impossibility of achieving balance while CC and DPS share the same game mechanic.
just severely nerf condi duration, and buff the atacks that apply them. i.e. scepter auto atk for necro (more phys damage, bleeds/whatever last 80% less time), and so on..
There is no need to change CC condition to a separate category as debuff or damage condition. This simply creates an unnecessary and unneeded complication.
I do find it a bit comical though how it seems to be the “cool” thing to do now, to start a thread condemning condition damage and CC now, particularly due to the fact that when you do a flat comparison of soldiers and dire gear, that soldiers gear extremely heavily out damages condition builds with dire. Condition builds are at a disadvantage when damage is compared. Cripples, chill, and immobilize, as well as vulnerability strongly benefit direct damage builds, probably more so, but can be essential to bury damaging conditions to prevent them from being cleansed.
Condition builds need 50% condition duration just to keep up. This math has been hashed out and proven. Yet so many posters make blind statements claiming otherwise. I can only assume they make such statements based on perception in game. Why anyone would act on such assumptions and feeling with no logical fact or proof is beyond me, but apparently it is the “in” thing to do.
Yes, CC is an inconvenient pain in the backside. It locks people down and annoys the heck out of them. But guess what. That is precisely what it is designed to do. As an engineer for example, with grenade flight time, or bombs explosions delays, CC can be essential to actually landing that condition damage.
I just cannot see any reason to separate them. Simply because something annoys you is no reason to segregate it so that it can be handled in a more convenient manner for you personally. There are very literally hard counters to CCs. There are also traits that negate CC fully to a limited extent. Traits that cut down CC duration and value. There is food and runes that negate CC. There are skills that quit literally cancel CC.
With all of this in mind, I just cannot accept a change is needed.
(edited by coglin.1867)
Yes, CC is an inconvenient pain in the backside. It locks people down and annoys the heck out of them. But guess what. That is precisely what it is designed to do.
….
I just cannot see any reason to separate them. Simply because something annoys you is no reason to segregate it so that it can be handled in a more convenient manner for you personally. There are very literally hard counters to CCs. There are also traits that negate CC fully to a limited extent. Traits that cut down CC duration and value. There is food and runes that negate CC. There are skills that quit literally cancel CC.With all of this in mind, I just cannot accept a change is needed.
You missed the point of the OP. It has nothing to do with what annoys me or what the FOTM is (although I’ll admit I’m taking advantage of the fad to get more attention to this issue). It’s about making the game balanced and creating meaningful gameplay.
I won’t waste space to restate the OP. The bottom line is that as long as the two mechanics are linked, then changes to one affect the other. Whether it’s cleansing, duration, traits, skill cooldowns, condition stacking, it’s all piled together in one big mess. Any change to one aspect affects many other aspects in unintended ways. This hurts all facets of gameplay.
I’m inclined to agree with OP at least to a certain degree. IMO fear, chill, cripple, immobilize should be classified as CC because of the way they behave and are used. By extension, “stun breaks” better classified as lock breakers, would need to be made slightly more prevalent to compensate.
just severely nerf condi duration, and buff the atacks that apply them. i.e. scepter auto atk for necro (more phys damage, bleeds/whatever last 80% less time), and so on..
So turn condition builds into direct damage builds? Might as well just take out conditions if you’re going to do that.
What needs to happen is the number of damaging conditions available per class is dropped to 2 possibly 3 if it’s a condition heavy class(necro/engi). Runes/sigils that can proc conditions either removed or the condition they apply is based on class. That will kill the “burst” of conditions. Next we need equalize all conditions; make them all stack, have a secondary effect, and equalize the damage/scaling. Then we rebalance the number of stacks per attacks to limit how fast stacks can be applied, you shouldn’t be able to stack 25 in a few seconds. Stacking should be something that happens over time that swings the battle in the condition users favor if they can last long enough. Finally we rebalance condition removals to only remove a few stacks of conditions possibly with healing power increasing the number of stacks it can remove.
That way you’ll have no burst condition builds that apply everything to you, conditions become attrition based like they should be, conditions become a bit more balanced amongst themselves, and condition builds aren’t rendered completely useless by condition removal. Sure there is more that would need done but I’m not going to type it all out for the 10th time to have it fall on deaf ears.
I won’t waste space to restate the OP. The bottom line is that as long as the two mechanics are linked, then changes to one affect the other. Whether it’s cleansing, duration, traits, skill cooldowns, condition stacking, it’s all piled together in one big mess. Any change to one aspect affects many other aspects in unintended ways. This hurts all facets of gameplay.
I disagree. It does not hurt the game play in the least. Based on the fact that it is all but mandatory to run 50% or better condition duration just to keep up with direct damage in PVT gear alone (much less the higher damage gear set ups) it is an essential benefit to be able to bury your damage in debuffs or minor CC conditions. 2 dodges and a single condition cleanse can negate a ridiculous amount of condition damage, or burn the opportunity an enemy has to snare you in some form of CC.
Regardless of what you meant or what you care to accuse me of missing, I fail to see how you have presented a supporting argument to “claim” that not separating harms the game in any way. You may claim it to be “one big mess”, but I assure my friend, players using intuitive game play put every one of those on you at specific times, for specific reasons. Intelligent players do not randomly spam CC or conditions with no thought. Not those who play to win anyway.
P.S. How is confusion confusing to you? You state that it is “completely bonkered”, when it is extremely straight forward in its functionality. It is a damaging condition that causes damage upon weapon skill or utility skill usage. I have to be honest here and point out, that if you have to ask what a condition does, why do you feel you are qualified to tell us “This hurts all facets of game play”…….The only stat that effects both control conditions and damage conditions is condition duration. You suggest your ideas make an ease of balance, when that is completely false. Your suggestion forces a developer devotion to an entire third category. Stun breakers for knock downs, knock backs, fears, pulls, sinks, and launches…………Condition removal for bleeding, burning, confusion, fear, poison, and torment…..And yet another entire cleanse for blind, chill, cripple, and immobilize……..Yet where does this leave weakness, vulnerability, and the heal debuff of poison? Seems to me your wanting to add an entire level of unnecessary complication, skill splitting, skill rebuilding, and new skill set to counter your new effects label that falls outside of stuns and conditions. In no way do I see your suggesting simplifying any thing in the least when it comes how they effect one another.
(edited by coglin.1867)
Is this in the frame of sPvP or WvW?
In sPvP, I don’t see a huge problem with the current system. Condition removal requires specialization or giving up defenses against physical damage or dealing more damage yourself. Players often spread out enough that team condition removal isn’t incredibly powerful. A targeted approach that addresses specific abilities would be best.
If you’re talking WvW, severely nerfing the +40% and -40% condition duration food would be a good start. Both are incredibly powerful and the -40% condition duration foods really hurt CC condition use. On top of that, group condition removal may need to be re-examined. Large WvW groups tend to ball up, easily ensuring that team condition removal hits the maximum number of targets. In comparison, many conditions are single target application.
If you’re talking WvW, severely nerfing the +40% and -40% condition duration food would be a good start. Both are incredibly powerful and the -40% condition duration foods really hurt CC condition use. On top of that, group condition removal may need to be re-examined. Large WvW groups tend to ball up, easily ensuring that team condition removal hits the maximum number of targets. In comparison, many conditions are single target application.
“Incredibly Powerful” based on what? +40% is required. PVT Soldiers gear gear which has as much defense as the blindly complained about Dire gear, yet offers significantly more damage. The +40% food is almost required just to hit 50% duration to be competitive with Soldiers gear. Based on those facts, I cannot see what makes the food so “incredibly powerful” when the food only brings that type of damage in line with its power counter part?
Other food offers a 5-7% damage increase based on stats. +40% condition duration is roughly a 20-40% damage increase (depending on the cutoff on the ticks).
I’d like to see that math you mention that compares power to condition damage.
….snip for space….
I’m going going to bother answering questions that are addressed in the OP. The 2nd and 3rd paragraphs are extremely clear about how it affects the game.
Counters are in fact already in game- stun break and stability. Removing CC abilities abilities from condition cleansing, and adjusting stun breaks and stability application to compensate, would leave cleansing free to be balanced as a counter to DOT effects. This would involve extremely minimal changes to current skills and builds. Yes this is opposite of the title, but after thinking about it more, I think it would be easier to implement this way.
Regarding confusion, I know how it works. But what is it’s intended role? Control or DPS? Hybrid? It’s not reliable in either one. It’s also completely useless in PVE, for whatever that’s worth. It was added to the game with the Mesmer class in an obvious analog of the old Backfire skill. Unfortunately it doesn’t serve the tactical purposes that skill did, so I don’t really know what it’s supposed to be for other then burst dps that depends on your enemy being stupid.
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