Guild Wars 2

As a general change, I would like to see armor play a bigger role in the game for all classes. Something like:

- Bigger delta between light and heavy armor for damage mitigation
- Heavy armor has a penalty to endurance/energy bar and light armor gets a bonus – maybe 20% each way?

For extra credit, consider giving some classes the option to wear lighter armor with perhaps the added incentive of having +10% to critical hit % and a bonus good utility skill option and an extra off-hand weapon choice only available if you wear the lighter armor.

Well, there certainly is a huge balance problem in the game right now. Some of the heaviest classes in the game also enjoy the benefit of having the best access to stamina, which allows for more than 2 dodges. That is slightly unfair both conceptually and in practice. It would make more sense for lightly armored classes to be more mobile, and have more dodges, while heavy armored classes can endure more damage, but are less mobile.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Well, there certainly is a huge balance problem in the game right now. Some of the heaviest classes in the game also enjoy the benefit of having the best access to stamina, which allows for more than 2 dodges. That is slightly unfair both conceptually and in practice. It would make more sense for lightly armored classes to be more mobile, and have more dodges, while heavy armored classes can endure more damage, but are less mobile.

Yet the difference in armor is insignificant.

It does not make sense for light armored classes to be very mobile coming from a gaming perspective. Mage classes have always been slow and hard hitting.

Medium armored classes should be the fastest in that aspect (which happens to be somewhat true as thieves are the fastest).

But this topic was about endurance, not mobility.

So OT, 20% extra endurance regeneration in a game where active mitigation is EVERYTHING is so imbalanced, just wow. You would have to up the armor of the heavy class so much. Besides, what about condition damage? Armor does nothing against that…

i think that would be extremely damaging to game balance, so i really don’t see that happening.

Cygnus.6903:

Yet the difference in armor is insignificant.

That is also something that should be changed.

Cygnus.6903:

It does not make sense for light armored classes to be very mobile coming from a gaming perspective. Mage classes have always been slow and hard hitting.

Dark Souls would disagree with you. When you have a system that makes sense, you have better balance. Heavy armor should make you more tough, but also more slow. And light armor should make you more vulnerable to damage, but more mobile.

In Dark Souls lightly armored characters have faster endurance regeneration, which allows them to dodge more, and move faster. And heavy armor really makes you quite slow, and less able to dodge (but you get a lot of tankiness in return). It seems this balance wasn’t considered as carefully for GW2. That is why berserker gear currently dominates the game. Cause and effect.

Cygnus.6903:

So OT, 20% extra endurance regeneration in a game where active mitigation is EVERYTHING is so imbalanced, just wow. You would have to up the armor of the heavy class so much. Besides, what about condition damage? Armor does nothing against that…

Armor is not supposed to do anything against condition damage. Condition damage is the counter, to balance out the damage mitigating effect of heavy armor. Currently however, armor has little effect at all. They need to change that.

When armor works the way it is supposed to, conditions can be considered a fair counter against bunker builds. Currently however, conditions negate something that wasn’t providing much damage reduction to begin with. The numbers are just all wrong in GW2.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Dark Souls would disagree with you. When you have a system that makes sense, you have better balance. Heavy armor should make you more tough, but also more slow. And light armor should make you more vulnerable to damage, but more mobile.

This is also reflected directly in the armour in most games where classes don’t limit you to armour-type.

The heavier the armour, the higher Physical Armour values go. But in turn. Physical Defence (the ability to entirely avoid the damage via dodging etc) actually goes down. Which makes sense, with heavy armour one wants to soak the damage instead of having to rely on avoiding it.

The same is then also sometimes true of anti-magic armour, because frequently it’s the heavy crystal plate armour which gives tons of physical and magical armour, but in turn makes you as easy a target as a rock (but also as durable as one :P ).

In games without free armour choice, this is often partially baked into the classes (since the developer knows who’ll wear what). Warrior-types wear heavier armour, are easy to hit but very difficult to actually kill. Assassins are nimble, often foregoing armour entirely, but try to ideally kill and be gone before you even know you got to hit something.

And as for the one above who says Mages:
Mages are a special case in most fantasy RPGs. Combining easy-to-hit physique (no physical training) with no~light armour (robes), they are frail as it gets.
They make up for this in two ways: Binary utility (say a spell which avoids death once) and assassin-like instant-killing damage output but from large ranges.

Would you actually want your MMORPG to work by that balance?

DAoC had this for the most part. Or at least tried. The “bolt casters” could kill you from outside anyone’s retaliation range, early in the game via double- or in Albion’s case, triple-bolt. You’d be dead. You had 0 chance to fight back. At all.
This was however balanced. Combat was 100v100 or so. And that bolt caster, he kills 1 player, and that’s it. And then dies in close combat because in DAoC you couldn’t cast at all while anyone was hitting you (independent of with what, your concentration was broken).
The balance worked. But I have a suspicion people wouldn’t like it much nowadays. :P

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

—
In Dark Souls lightly armored characters have faster endurance regeneration, which allows them to dodge more, and move faster. And heavy armor really makes you quite slow, and less able to dodge (but you get a lot of tankiness in return). It seems this balance wasn’t considered as carefully for GW2. That is why berserker gear currently dominates the game. Cause and effect.

—

How is this related to anything at all?

Question, what if the profession that’s heavy armor by default is wearing something that isn’t plated heavy armor?(Exo Pit Fighters/karma Pit Fighters/Braham’s armor). You’re comparing a different game with a different gameplay. This would mean you would have to go back and redo the entire armor system in order to and change the entire defense aspect based on appearance or material of the armor which would be a huge pain. It would also be annoying to balance.

Lucentfir.7430:

Question, what if the profession that’s heavy armor by default is wearing something that isn’t plated heavy armor?(Exo Pit Fighters/karma Pit Fighters/Braham’s armor).

Yeah, a variable-effect armour system usually means that all classes can wear all armours, with varying upsides and downsides.

But, it doesn’t have to. There’s nothing wrong with “baking” some of the armour effects into the classes if you know their armour effects ahead of time.

Wethospu.6437:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

—
In Dark Souls lightly armored characters have faster endurance regeneration, which allows them to dodge more, and move faster. And heavy armor really makes you quite slow, and less able to dodge (but you get a lot of tankiness in return). It seems this balance wasn’t considered as carefully for GW2. That is why berserker gear currently dominates the game. Cause and effect.

—

How is this related to anything at all?

It’s actually very relevant. The reason why Berserker gear dominates the game in certain modes, or, if you want to be very nitpicky, squishy all out gear dominates the game is because with everyone having a heal skill and active mitigation, the game is up to you to survive.

If you die, you can’t blame the healer for not healing you. If you actually do have a healer, like a Mesmer, Necro, Elementalist, Guardian, Engineer, or any other profession traited and built to be a healer, then you still can’t blame them because they only have one job and can, in a game like GW2, only do that one job. If they are incapable of doing that one job, then you shouldn’t be playing with them unless you’re teaching them.

So, everyone has an endurance bar with 2 rolls. Everyone regenerates 1 roll every 10 seconds up to 1 roll every 5 seconds (unless using Endurance Regenerating skills or traits). There is nothing touching the endurance bar except rolls and boon/condition. Weakness will halve the speed at which you regenerate, whereas Vigor will double it. Vigor is a lot easier to obtain than Weakness is to apply. Thankfully, with Endurance, only the greatest value is applied and nothing stacks (except Thief trait which adds 23% endurance whenever they roll because that’s not actually “regeneration”).

Because of that, the squishy caster who has no inept ability to survive a bullet can live past a tree falling on him just as well as a heavily armored guardian. Actually, you don’t even need evade for that, you ckittene Aegis. Because of the streamlined and "casual"ified gameplay, it makes things a lot harder to balance. One small change will affect a huge flow. Arenanet didn’t want the game to be as complex as GW1 and they succeeded, but balancing it is just as hard. They shot themselves in the foot by going too far on the other side of the spectrum.

And back to the original point:
If everyone can, theoretically, dodge everything, why go tanky at all or get any survivability when you, and your entire team, can go full squishy and just kill everything before they can kill you. A lot of the game mechanics encourage this, even though the gameplay and ideology are stagnant and harmful to diversity.

List of some general mechanics that benefit “full squish or full fail”:
Evasion
Heal Skills
Invulnerability
Block
Downed State
Rally

That’s not saying that these are bad mechanics, in fact, individually they’re all fine and just. But together, they really make it so there’s no reason not to be full squishy once you’ve attained a certain skill threshold or capability.

Of course, this doesn’t apply to every game mode, but I’m quite sure armor and profession health pools differences don’t make a significant difference in large-scale WvW battles (not roaming and 1v1s).

None of your points have anything do with “heavy vs. light armor”.

But good job turning this into a trinity topic.

Wethospu.6437:

How is this related to anything at all?

I would think that was obvious, but I don’t mind explaining it, because it is an interesting topic.

Because the game doesn’t have decent damage mitigation with heavy armor, the game leans too far towards squishy gear, where dodging trumps all. After all, why would you build a tank, when the game doesn’t really allow you to build one? Currently having more dodges is clearly a better defense than having more armor, since armor currently doesn’t do as much as it should.

The berserker trend is emergent gameplay. It is the result of the skewed balance in the way light and heavy armors work, and the way endurance regeneration is illogically spread among the classes. Had they opted for a more sensible system, like the one in Dark Souls, you wouldn’t have zerker dominating the game as much as you have now.

Currently you can combine high damage (berserker stat) with a high armor class, and high endurance regeneration (which means high defense). You don’t need to be a game designer to see that there is something wrong here. Berserker gear is supposed to boost offense, at the cost of reduced defense. But with sacrificing toughness, people bringing zerker gear aren’t sacrificing much of their defense at all (since they can still dodge like crazy).

Let any profession wear any type of armor.

If that is possible, you can fool around with armor types.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Wethospu.6437:

How is this related to anything at all?

I would think that was obvious, but I don’t mind explaining it, because it is an interesting topic.

Because the game doesn’t have decent damage mitigation with heavy armor, the game leans too far towards squishy gear, where dodging trumps all. After all, why would you build a tank, when the game doesn’t really allow you to build one? Currently having more dodges is clearly a better defense than having more armor, since armor currently doesn’t do as much as it should.

The berserker trend is emergent gameplay. It is the result of the skewed balance in the way light and heavy armors work, and the way endurance regeneration is illogically spread among the classes. Had they opted for a more sensible system, like the one in Dark Souls, you wouldn’t have zerker dominating the game as much as you have now.

Currently you can combine high damage (berserker stat) with a high armor class, and high endurance regeneration (which means high defense). You don’t need to be a game designer to see that there is something wrong here. Berserker gear is supposed to boost offense, at the cost of reduced defense. But with sacrificing toughness, people bringing zerker gear aren’t sacrificing much of their defense at all (since they can still dodge like crazy).

Does your “high armor class” refer to current heavy armor or every armor? There is barely any difference between current light and heavy armor and even light armor classes use berserker fine.

Even if you could make a tank with heavy armor, why bother? Just use light armor and do more damage.

it would be extremely cool to be able to simple use whatever gear I want on all my characters, as it would add incredible variety to the game and keep it entertaining 10 times the amount it is now.

Wethospu.6437:

Does your “high armor class” refer to current heavy armor or every armor? There is barely any difference between current light and heavy armor and even light armor classes use berserker fine.

Even if you could make a tank with heavy armor, why bother? Just use light armor and do more damage.

There is indeed barely a difference between light and heavy armor, and that is a problem. Why you may ask? Well there is a big difference between the classes, and how easy their access to endurance is (if any access at all). Some have great access to endurance, thus negating the cost of berserker gear completely (which is not much of a cost to begin with, since they sacrifice armor). And oddly, the heavy armored classes are also the classes with easy access to endurance. Isn’t that conceptually really bizarre?

Why would you bother making a tank? That is exactly the problem. You have defensive stats in the game, with little purpose at all, since they are all trumped by damage. Even the loss of armor by wearing berzerker, is insignificant. Because armor is rubbish. The scaling is all wrong, causing everyone to wear zerker gear. That is a design problem. Why have all those other stats, if one is clearly superior?

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Well, there certainly is a huge balance problem in the game right now. Some of the heaviest classes in the game also enjoy the benefit of having the best access to stamina, which allows for more than 2 dodges. That is slightly unfair both conceptually and in practice. It would make more sense for lightly armored classes to be more mobile, and have more dodges, while heavy armored classes can endure more damage, but are less mobile.

Dodges are only one part of the picture.
Generally lighter classes have more access to things that allow them to dash about here and there evading damage.

I don’t see a reason why GW2 should adhere to the " light is fast, heavy is slow" stereotype.
I realize that it’s been used a lot and that people are not only familiar with it but also very used to it by now.
I also understand that people feel the need for “realism” but in a game where you can summon fireballs and wield ethereal blades I don’t see this adding much.

Realistically someone with a rifle should 1-2 shot every target out there.
Realistically earth elementals, structures and undead should not bleed.

And the list could go on.

Harper.4173:

Dodges are only one part of the picture.
Generally lighter classes have more access to things that allow them to dash about here and there evading damage.

Some lighter classes. But then again, some heavy classes have invulnerability. Thus again negating this.

Because there are several ways in the game for temporary invincibility, the importance of armor is entirely down the toilet. There is too easy access to such abilities, and armor doesn’t scale well enough to be of any importance. And it should be important.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Cygnus.6903:

Yet the difference in armor is insignificant.

That is also something that should be changed.

Cygnus.6903:

It does not make sense for light armored classes to be very mobile coming from a gaming perspective. Mage classes have always been slow and hard hitting.

Dark Souls would disagree with you. When you have a system that makes sense, you have better balance. Heavy armor should make you more tough, but also more slow. And light armor should make you more vulnerable to damage, but more mobile.

In Dark Souls lightly armored characters have faster endurance regeneration, which allows them to dodge more, and move faster. And heavy armor really makes you quite slow, and less able to dodge (but you get a lot of tankiness in return). It seems this balance wasn’t considered as carefully for GW2. That is why berserker gear currently dominates the game. Cause and effect.

Cygnus.6903:

So OT, 20% extra endurance regeneration in a game where active mitigation is EVERYTHING is so imbalanced, just wow. You would have to up the armor of the heavy class so much. Besides, what about condition damage? Armor does nothing against that…

Armor is not supposed to do anything against condition damage. Condition damage is the counter, to balance out the damage mitigating effect of heavy armor. Currently however, armor has little effect at all. They need to change that.

When armor works the way it is supposed to, conditions can be considered a fair counter against bunker builds. Currently however, conditions negate something that wasn’t providing much damage reduction to begin with. The numbers are just all wrong in GW2.

Berserker gear dominates the game becaus the game’s base difficulty level is set very low.
It has nothing to do with the types of armor in game.
When the content is designed to be easy enough that any player can eventually finish it in any gear you can bet that better than average players will find it easy to do it as full dps.

There’s your problem right there.

Again I think the problem is that you’re very set in the age-old “Armor only works this way” mentality.

GW2 is obviously trying a new approach -and I feel they’ve made it work quite well.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Wethospu.6437:

Does your “high armor class” refer to current heavy armor or every armor? There is barely any difference between current light and heavy armor and even light armor classes use berserker fine.

Even if you could make a tank with heavy armor, why bother? Just use light armor and do more damage.

There is indeed barely a difference between light and heavy armor, and that is a problem. Why you may ask? Well there is a big difference between the classes, and how easy their access to endurance is (if any access at all). Some have great access to endurance, thus negating the cost of berserker gear completely (which is not much of a cost to begin with, since they sacrifice armor). And oddly, the heavy armored classes are also the classes with easy access to endurance. Isn’t that conceptually really bizarre?

Why would you bother making a tank? That is exactly the problem. You have defensive stats in the game, with little purpose at all, since they are all trumped by damage. Even the loss of armor by wearing berzerker, is insignificant. Because armor is rubbish. The scaling is all wrong, causing everyone to wear zerker gear. That is a design problem. Why have all those other stats, if one is clearly superior?

With 15% damage reduction from heavy armor, it’s not very bizarre that heavy classes also have good access to active damage reduction. But still, this has nothing to do with “heavy vs. light”. Even if heavy armor removed dodging while giving massive damage reduction people would still use berserker.

Armor is not rubbish. It is just not simply needed. People farm dungeons to get rewards. More damage means faster kills which means less time spent. Even if PVT-gear made you invincible you would still slow down the run.

Harper.4173:

Berserker gear dominates the game because the game’s base difficulty level is set very low.

No, that is too simple a way to explain the problem. The game is easy for a reason. And it’s not just because the ai is dumb, or the dungeons aren’t challenging. It’s about balance. Berserker is the dominant type of gear, because it is statistically the best gear to bring in most PVE situations.

If we take the example of Dark Souls, even in Dark Souls you can learn all the moves, and play through the game as a lightly armored class by dodging everything… but you can also beat the same content just as well as a heavy. There is balance.

Harper.4173:

It has nothing to do with the types of armor in game.
When the content is designed to be easy enough that any player can eventually finish it in any gear you can bet that better than average players will find it easy to do it as full dps.

Sure, but isn’t that partially because there is little to no downside to going full DPS? And there is supposed to be a downside, but there isn’t. That is the real problem. It’s a problem in the game’s balance.

Harper.4173:

Again I think the problem is that you’re very set in the age-old “Armor only works this way” mentality.

No, I’m set in the mentality that a game should have rules, and that the rules should make sense. If you include a type of gear, it should have a purpose. If that purpose is negated due to an unbalance in the game, then that should be addressed.

Harper.4173:

GW2 is obviously trying a new approach -and I feel they’ve made it work quite well.

The game’s combat system is broken on several key aspects: Conditions, gear, class balance, build diversity and traits. It’s a mess.

Wethospu.6437:

With 15% damage reduction from heavy armor, it’s not very bizarre that heavy classes also have good access to active damage reduction. But still, this has nothing to do with “heavy vs. light”. Even if heavy armor removed dodging while giving massive damage reduction people would still use berserker.

And why is that? That would only be the case if players are still perfectly able to endure the damage dealt to them, while wearing berzerker. But if berserker removes a substantial amount of their defense, then at some point you reach a tipping point. I’m not saying berserker should be rendered useless this way. But all gear types should be brought closer to that tipping point, so all of them are viable choices (and so that there isn’t one that clearly outdoes the others).

You can get through GW2 PvE with tanky gear too. I’m pretty sure if you want to speedrun Dark Souls there is only one choice.

Down side of berserker is that you have to know the content. Unlike with tanky gear which allows you to make dozen of mistakes (facetank) and still come out on top.

If you look at other formats like WvW or PvP you can see that defensive stats are not worthless. So any big gear changes would cause serious imbalance.

But sure, it is possible to make other gear choices desirable by nerfing berserker gear (and I guess every other gear with precision and ferocity) to oblivion. But then what? People find the new best set and it’s same thing all over again.

@Mad Queen

You’re missing my point.

Berserker is statistically the best gear – sure – but there will always be a gear set or option that will be the best statistical option.
The problem is not the gear – the problem is that the content is too casual oriented.

You can’t fail at picking skills – weapons have them tied it.
You can’t fail at traits – the trait system has been reworked to make sure of that.
You can’t fail dungeons – no matter how many wipes – you still don’t get kicked.
You can’t fail at Guild Wars 2 unless you’re very new or very slow.

That’s why people who’ve been playing for 2 years can easily zerk. Because the content can be learned by heart.

The downsides for going full dps were there and were fully evident at the launch of GW2 – what did you expect nearly 2 years after?
The content to be just as difficult?

On a side note – did you play at launch ?Did you go full zerker? How did it work for you?

You mention gear type and purpose.

The way I see it tanky gear has purpose – in WvW, sPVP and PvE.
It’s there to compensate for the lack of player ability in PVE – and also a necessity in certain encounters.

I will agree conditions are broken.
Gear I feel is not broken – it’s simply not something you’re used to.

Also I’m tired of “the great mirage of build diversity” – It’s a dead concept as far as I’m concerned – it was a thing back when MMORPGs were played as games – that was the case a while ago – currently I feel the game is played like a business – maximum rewards for spent resources- and in that regard you can never have build diversity.

There will never be “build diversity” for players that play for maximum efficiency.

Those who don’t are always free to play whatever they want. I don’t really see the problem.

When you mention the “gear tipping point” you said all gear choices should be “viable” – could you please define viable as you see it?

Because the way Anet sees it – all gear choices are viable – since you can complete almost any content in any gear. So where exactly is the lack of viability?

Wethospu.6437:

If you look at other formats like WvW or PvP you can see that defensive stats are not worthless. So any big gear changes would cause serious imbalance.

That depends entirely how you balance it. Indeed a majority of the gear-balance problems arise in PVE, because a lot of PVE is inconsistent to the game’s own combat rules. In that respect GW1 had a more balanced combat system, since a majority of the game’s monsters used the same skills as the players, and respected the same basic rules.

I don’t think a big change like this would necessarily lead to a serious imbalance in WvW or PvP.

Wethospu.6437:

But sure, it is possible to make other gear choices desirable by nerfing berzerker gear (and I guess every other gear with precision and ferocity) to oblivion. But then what? People find the new best set and it’s same thing all over again.

That is why I specifically said NOT to nerf berzerker into oblivion, but to make other gear combination on par with berzerker.

Harper.4173:

@Mad Queen

You’re missing my point.

Berserker is statistically the best gear – sure – but there will always be a gear set or option that will be the best statistical option.

I don’t believe this is true. GW1 got very close to a situation in which multiple gear combinations were equally effective.

The problem is not the gear – the problem is that the content is too casual oriented.

I think both.

Harper.4173:

On a side note – did you play at launch ?Did you go full zerker? How did it work for you?

I played at launch, but obviously I didn’t go full zerker back then. In fact, I’ve always disliked that play-style, and prefer knights.

Harper.4173:

You mention gear type and purpose.

The way I see it tanky gear has purpose – in WvW, sPVP and PvE.
It’s there to compensate for the lack of player ability in PVE – and also a necessity in certain encounters.

I don’t think that is how it was intended. Are all the other gear combinations also just training wheels? I also think tanky gear (and other types of gear) are not a necessity often enough.

Harper.4173:

Also I’m tired of “the great mirage of build diversity” – It’s a dead concept as far as I’m concerned – it was a thing back when MMORPGs were played as games – that was the case a while ago – currently I feel the game is played like a business – maximum rewards for spent resources- and in that regard you can never have build diversity.

That seems gloomy. I prefer not to see it that way. Build diversity in a roleplaying game should still be a goal.

Harper.4173:

There will never be “build diversity” for players that play for maximum efficiency.

Only if the system isn’t flexible, and if the balance is lacking. I don’t believe that total balance can ever be achieved, but reasonable balance should be the best next thing to aim for.

Harper.4173:

When you mention the “gear tipping point” you said all gear choices should be “viable” – could you please define viable as you see it?

When I say viable, I mean that not one gear type should clearly trump all the others. Currently in the game, offense is the best defense. The more damage you do, the faster the enemy dies, and the less damage he can do to you. Any armor is pretty much negated by the ridiculous damage that some PVE foes deal. Ideally, all gear combinations are close together in effectiveness, and a player may be swayed either way. That is currently not the case.

Harper.4173:

Because the way Anet sees it – all gear choices are viable – since you can complete almost any content in any gear. So where exactly is the lack of viability?

That is not what I mean with viable in this case. I’m not talking about IF you can survive in that sort of gear, but how well it performs compared to other gear stats. Not all gear stats will always be equal, but one should not blow all the others out of the water, as is currently the case. And armor should not be rendered useless.

Guild Wars 1 doesn’t really matter because the bulk of what your character could achieve derived from your build and not your gear.

And if you look at it like that – and since you’ve played GW1 – you’ll know that there was always a meta for each specific area/encounter when running in an organized group.

That was the deal – even back then – each class was required to go for a few cookie cutter builds – it was ping or kick – but it was gear not builds.
Because in GW1 builds mattered and not gear. And you always wanted those few builds that were the best.

The same applies to GW2 today – but for gear.

I’ll ask you – why didn’t you go full zerker at launch? Was it because you were inexperienced at both the class, the mechanics and the content?
I know I was – and that was the reason I didn’t go full zerk – but 2 years later I know my class inside out, I know the mechanics inside out and know the content nearly by heart.
Of course I can afford to go with more offensive gear.
Provided I started playing and went for Knight’s gear ( that was the gear I needed to compensate for my lack of experience and skill ) don’t you think that 2 years later I should be able to do things in zerker’s gear?
Isn’t that my reward for playing and improving these past 2 years?

Tanky gear isn’t just training wheels – there are a lot of places in the game where you actually need it.
Few parties can do FOTM 50 as full zerker.
Teq runs require PVT gear as optimal.
The new LS content is much more hard hitting than the game used to be – so tanky gear is finding a niche there as well.

Build Diversity is a goal – it’s a goal a developer can strive for and that players will ultimately defeat – through number crunching and theorycrafting.
Once “the best build” is found – then those who care about it will go for that best build and you can say goodbye to diversity.

Build diversity remains a goal for players – those who care about playing diverse builds and who enjoy that.
But there are also players who enjoy using the best statistical build/gear and for them build diversity will always be non-existent.

While I do agree that some 1-hit-KO attacks in this game need to be scaled down I also see why they’re there.
The developers are trying to discourage the “Arah P4 no dodges full tank mode on” style of gameplay. By forcing you to react no matter what gear you’re wearing.
It’s in a sense enforcing GW2’s vision of organic combat.

In tanky gear you can afford to miss some of your dodges – but if you miss the critical one you’re still going down – and I’m fine with that.

It takes pressure off you but doesn’t render you immune.

Another issue that you mention is that you want sets to be more clustered together in terms of performance.

This i believe is wrong – aren’t you disregarding people’s dedication, time spent and experience if you make content faster to clear with more tanky gear?

The smaller the time clear gap between the fastest gear set (zerkers) and the more tanky alternatives the less incentive players have to become better.

Why bother to learn how to dodge properly and time your skills as a zerker if you can just roll full knight’s and finish let’s say 2-3 minutes slower.
For the average pug it won’t matter – in fact it might even be fast since in the tanky gear he’ll wipe less and be less stressed in general about the content so there’s really no incentive to get better.

That’s the issue I faced as well – I was comfy in my knight’s gear but the difference in clear times made me work towards being a good zerker. I put in time and effort into that – but only because there was a good amount of difference between the two.

Rewarding less skilled play should be something this game should move away from – not towards.

If you believe that tanky gear is not a necessity often enough – then maybe you should ask for maybe more content where it’s more relevant but trying to change the game because you dislike playing a gear type is not a good idea.

Honest suggestion – play a zerker for a while – see how it feels and notice the differences ( I’m assuming you haven’t played it since you said you don’t like it).

This game isn’t only about people’s RP choices. I understand you dislike a certain gear set but that’s no reason to promote less skilled gameplay.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Wethospu.6437:

If you look at other formats like WvW or PvP you can see that defensive stats are not worthless. So any big gear changes would cause serious imbalance.

That depends entirely how you balance it. Indeed a majority of the gear-balance problems arise in PVE, because a lot of PVE is inconsistent to the game’s own combat rules. In that respect GW1 had a more balanced combat system, since a majority of the game’s monsters used the same skills as the players, and respected the same basic rules.

I don’t think a big change like this would necessarily lead to a serious imbalance in WvW or PvP.

Tanky gear and conditions are already rampant in WvW and PvP. I doubt nerfing berserker helps with that.

Wethospu.6437:

But sure, it is possible to make other gear choices desirable by nerfing berzerker gear (and I guess every other gear with precision and ferocity) to oblivion. But then what? People find the new best set and it’s same thing all over again.

That is why I specifically said NOT to nerf berzerker into oblivion, but to make other gear combination on par with berzerker.

And how do you plan to make other gear on par without nerfing berserker into oblivion?

Extra defense is not needed so they would have to significantly lower its damage output. Alternatively they could reduce armor but everything would have to literally one shot berserker players to have any meaningful effects.

Wethospu.6437:

And how do you plan to make other gear on par without nerfing berserker into oblivion?

Extra defense is not needed so they would have to significantly lower its damage output. Alternatively they could reduce armor but everything would have to literally one shot berserker players to have any meaningful effects.

Effectiveness of armor can be increased and PVE monsters can be better balanced. Additionally, they could give monsters abilities to counter massive DPS-fests, and yes, there could be a larger downside to playing in full berzerker gear. I think statistics would need to be tweaked on both sides, and a general overhaul of PVE combat is long overdue.

Harper.4173:

And if you look at it like that – and since you’ve played GW1 – you’ll know that there was always a meta for each specific area/encounter when running in an organized group.

That meta changed all the time. Having played a necromancer, SS-builds were always widely popular. But later on the meta shifted to mark of pain builds, and BIP (Blood is power) builds for areas like the Deep. For Domain of Anguish FoC (feast of corruption) builds became very popular. It wasn’t as stale as the current meta, where every class is encouraged to play zerker. And that’s the thing, even in GW1 with all the cookiecutter builds, at least it wasn’t the same build across all professions. That is what we have here.

Harper.4173:

I’ll ask you – why didn’t you go full zerker at launch?

Because fine tuning my character is something I do once I hit end game.

Harper.4173:

The new LS content is much more hard hitting than the game used to be – so tanky gear is finding a niche there as well.

There have definitely been improvements in the recent LS releases, that is clear.

Harper.4173:

The developers are trying to discourage the “Arah P4 no dodges full tank mode on” style of gameplay. By forcing you to react no matter what gear you’re wearing. It’s in a sense enforcing GW2’s vision of organic combat.

I see what you mean, but I don’t believe that should come at the cost of completely negating the point of wearing armor. The game shouldn’t only be about dealing damage. It turns the game into a boring exercise of whack-a-mole.

Harper.4173:

Another issue that you mention is that you want sets to be more clustered together in terms of performance.

This i believe is wrong – aren’t you disregarding people’s dedication, time spent and experience if you make content faster to clear with more tanky gear?

No, I don’t believe that is the case. I don’t believe making content more accessible for other gear, necessarily devalues the skill of players in other gear.

Harper.4173:

The smaller the time clear gap between the fastest gear set (zerkers) and the more tanky alternatives the less incentive players have to become better.

I think the developers already made a huge mistake to allow content to be waltzed over so fast with a particular gear type. Gear should encourage a different playing style, but not at the cost of turning everything into a speedrun.

Harper.4173:

Why bother to learn how to dodge properly and time your skills as a zerker if you can just roll full knight’s and finish let’s say 2-3 minutes slower.

Why wouldn’t we allow that? You make it sound as if building your character to tank damage, instead of dodging it, is something to look down upon.

Harper.4173:

For the average pug it won’t matter – in fact it might even be fast since in the tanky gear he’ll wipe less and be less stressed in general about the content so there’s really no incentive to get better.

You mean: better at dodging. Is that all the game is about? Are there no alternatives allowed?

Harper.4173:

Rewarding less skilled play should be something this game should move away from – not towards.

I don’t believe different gear equals lesser skilled. Nor do I believe that a good tank is a bad player, just because he relies less on dodging. It’s a different playing style, that’s all.

Harper.4173:

If you believe that tanky gear is not a necessity often enough – then maybe you should ask for maybe more content where it’s more relevant but trying to change the game because you dislike playing a gear type is not a good idea.

It’s not that I dislike berzerker gear. I just like the other gear types too, and wish the game catered to them more.

Harper.4173:

Honest suggestion – play a zerker for a while – see how it feels and notice the differences ( I’m assuming you haven’t played it since you said you don’t like it).

I have played it, but it was not my thing.

If you wanted to make armor class affect endurance regen, you’d need to add another mechanic to armor to balance it out.

The only idea that comes to mind is to add a ceiling to the amount of damage you can take in one hit for each armor class. Then the light armor classes could have better endurance, but have to worry about being killed outright. Heavy armor classes have less endurance but can take some hits without being downed.

Why would PVE be overhauled completely? People have invested large sums of money in gear – this solution won’t make the player base happy.

If anything is to be done the solution is to add more content that’s balanced differently but just changing the content we have now will make people unhappy for a lot of reasons such as :

Time invested in gear.
Time invested in builds and content.
People will feel their farm is getting nerfed ( which it will be).
And so on.

Why should monsters counter good dps? Why should zerker be less rewarding to play? Because you feel you’re not being rewarded as much for your set?

People have put in time and effort to learn how to improve themselves and zerk content well – why would you want to punish skilled players and reward unskilled gameplay?

Builds being different didn’t change the meta – the meta was “most damage we can do so we can clear it as fast as possible” – that’s exactly what we have here today – zerker gear doesn’t define your build – it defines your DPS output – your build can still be different incorporating various elements while still doing damage.

The 1-hit-KOs aren’t really that bad in tanky gear – I’ve found that where I usually get 1 hit in Zerks I can take 2 hits in Knight’s. Probably 3 in PVT. This is fair in my opinion.
How many hits do you need to eat before it becomes " full tank eat all the damage and don’t die "?
It does not negate armor completely – but puts pressure on people no matter what sets they’re wearing.

I find our current exercise of whack-a-mole much more engaging then the – tab out and spam attacks because you can tank it all alternative.

Gear didn’t turn everything into a speed run – players did – because after 2 years I couldn’t care less about the dungeons I’m doing except for the rewards.
There’s too little content and people who play constantly for lots of hours every day will eventually turn the game into a speed clear. That’s how it is – you can’t avoid that.

It does devalue your efforts if up until now you cleared 10 minutes faster than the more defensive gear and after a proposed " fix " you clear 3 minutes faster but the risk remains the same.
It a way you’re saying – “you know all that time and effort you put in? We’re going to take a good 70% of that and give it away for free to less skilled players so they can be happy too”.

The content already is accessible to other gear types – what you are complaining about is that you can’t speed clear in every gear type. Which is something entirely different.

Accessibility means being able to do it and complete it.
You want full tanks to be able to clear as fast as full glass cannons? Or nearly as fast? WHY?

Should the game not reward skill at all now?

You mention the content being made too easy – I agree – but that’s done now. You can’t undo it.
The common denominator has been set and I doubt they’ll change it soon. Too many people who are slow/inexperienced but pay good money on the gem store would be driven away.

Every time hard content has been introduced in GW2 the majority has flooded the forums with “pls nerf x thing” posts.

Building as a tank and passively eating the damage instead of actively mitigating it is something I consider to be less skilled.
It takes reflex and knowledge of animations to properly time a dodge.
It takes one double click in a completely safe environment to equip a tanky piece of armor.
See the difference?

Yes there are alternatives to dodging – blinds, blocks, reflects – all means of active damage mitigation – these should be rewarded because players are using them actively – and have had to spend time and effort to be able to do it effectively*.

Different playing styles exist – I agree – but why reward them all the same?
If he wants to tank – he can go ahead – but this game by design is not the game he’ll have fun in – this game doesn’t have “tanks” – so why is he trying to tank in a game where the concept of tanking was taken right out?

I’m not saying a tanky player is necessarily bad – but if he’s eating the damage instead of actively mitigating it he’s working less for his rewards – so why should he get equal or near equal rewards with someone who’s trying to keep himself alive through skill and knowledge?

If you want to roleplay as a “tanky guy” in a game that’s tried its very best to do away with “tanky guys” then that’s your option.
The game doesn’t forbid it – and is accessible enough to allow you to do it.

The problem starts when you start demanding rewards equal to those obtained by people who work more because of the gear they wear.

Gear should encourage a different playing style, but not at the cost of turning everything into a speedrun.

I feel like addressing this in particular.

Gear didn’t turn everything into a speedrun. Players did.
They did it because today’s generation of players are somewhat different to their counterparts of days gone by.

Now more then ever efficiency, numbers and rewards have taken a center stage in most if not all MMOs and games in general.

10 years ago weapon stats in an FPS or optimal builds in an MMO were something the majority didn’t dabble into.
Today people are becoming more and more serious about games in general – they’ve changed form a “general pass time” to a more serious undertakig.

I’m looking at myself too – while I took GW1 pretty casually and only got into stats, meta builds and efficiency a good year into playing the game when GW2 was announced my mindset was completely different.

During Beta Weekends while people were running about trying the game I was quickly mapping what hearts and what places to do in succession so when the game launches I level as quickly as possible.

The fact that the state of the game is pushing more towards the “speed clear” mentality indicates I’m not the only one thinking like this.

I feel the issues that GW2 has to address first are different from armor.

Skill isn’t rewarded enough – you can get much easier rewards doing almost anything than the hardest content in PVE right now – High level fractals.

Legendary and cosmetic items are gated by huge sums of money and not by personal accomplishments.
New armor and looks are released only through the gem store.
This puts immense pressure on players to farm as much gold and hoard as many resources as possible in order to be able to keep up.

The game doesn’t provide incentive for people to get better – that’s why you see so many unskilled/uninformed players running around.

Because the game has never slapped them in the face saying " you haven’t worked enough at improving yourself to get this".
There’s no brick wall anywhere ( Like Dark Souls – the example you like to mention) where people are forced to get better so they can surmount the obstacle.

Wipe? NP – Waypoint and do it again. No biggie.

GW2 was designed around active defenses. Virtually every mob, once you’ve gotten past the first couple of zones, possesses at least one move that it’s advantageous to dodge or block. Even if those moves aren’t inherently dangerous (i.e., won’t necessarily kill you), they are annoying enough that dodging (etc.) them is better than just standing there. I’m speaking about knocks, stuns, etc. Dungeon play is rife with attacks that must be mitigated or you are at a severe disadvantage (if not downed). The game was built to encourage you to play actively.

Armor Defense was designed to play less of a role than in other games, where active mitigation is not available or is not as prevalent. If armor were to be changed so that heavy armor enjoyed a dramatic increase in effectiveness over lighter armors, there would indeed have to be changes made to the heavy-wearer’s active defenses in order to balance things. This would take away from the active play for those classes.

Currently, those who prefer more passive play in GW2 have the option to wear bulkier gear, in the form of Knights, Soldiers, etc. They aren’t losing active options, which they can then use as they see fit. They can take more hits, make more mistakes. They just don’t do as much damage as glass cannons. However, in which MMO does greater survivability not entail doing less damage?

When it comes to active v. passive play, I’ll take active play any time. I’d rather not see my heavy armor characters pigeon-holed into more passive play in a game that was sold based on the idea of active play. So, no thanks to this suggestion.

no holy trinity, so no… if you make light armor any more squishy, the game would not be balance regardless of adding “better” utility or whatever else.

armor in this game is entirely cosmetic.

IndigoSundown.5419:

When it comes to active v. passive play, I’ll take active play any time. I’d rather not see my heavy armor characters pigeon-holed into more passive play in a game that was sold based on the idea of active play. So, no thanks to this suggestion.

yea because that worked wonders for this game pvp scene. just in case, im being sarcastic

Apolo.5942:

armor in this game is entirely cosmetic.

Not completely or there would not be a difference in the defense on the pieces.

Bran.7425:

Apolo.5942:

armor in this game is entirely cosmetic.

Not completely or there would not be a difference in the defense on the pieces.

Damage reduction gap with a 200 point difference (which is the base gap from cloth to plate) between the softer clothie and the heaviest plate is 10%.

After items the difference is negligible if you gear for it, and every class can ger for it just the same.

The problem is that armor value is not tied to the type of armor you wear but to the stats combinations on it. Only a small fraction of it is tied to the type. Every class being able to reach 2800 armor through items alone, make armor class irrelevant.

Armor is cosmetic.

I like the idea, but it would take a complete rebalance of current armor stats and the vigor boon as well.

perko.8309:

As a general change, I would like to see armor play a bigger role in the game for all classes. Something like:

- Bigger delta between light and heavy armor for damage mitigation
- Heavy armor has a penalty to endurance/energy bar and light armor gets a bonus – maybe 20% each way?

For extra credit, consider giving some classes the option to wear lighter armor with perhaps the added incentive of having +10% to critical hit % and a bonus good utility skill option and an extra off-hand weapon choice only available if you wear the lighter armor.

no. i like the armor system the way it is right now.
please do not fix what is not broken.

Apolo.5942:

Bran.7425:

Apolo.5942:

armor in this game is entirely cosmetic.

Not completely or there would not be a difference in the defense on the pieces.

Damage reduction gap with a 200 point difference (which is the base gap from cloth to plate) between the softer clothie and the heaviest plate is 10%.

After items the difference is negligible if you gear for it, and every class can ger for it just the same.

The problem is that armor value is not tied to the type of armor you wear but to the stats combinations on it. Only a small fraction of it is tied to the type. Every class being able to reach 2800 armor through items alone, make armor class irrelevant.

Armor is cosmetic.

Funny thing 10% is still a different, but it isn’t remotely entertaining discussing this as you are convince 10% is nothing, and I can not really see the warrior community sitting well with the lost of anything let alone something as small as that.

Bran.7425:

Funny thing 10% is still a different, but it isn’t remotely entertaining discussing this as you are convince 10% is nothing, and I can not really see the warrior community sitting well with the lost of anything let alone something as small as that.

You know nothing of the warrior community.

Harper.4173:

Why would PVE be overhauled completely? People have invested large sums of money in gear – this solution won’t make the player base happy.

Any big change to the game will make players angry. That is not a reason not to balance the game. I think they should address the core problems, and not treat symptoms.

Harper.4173:

Why should monsters counter good dps? Why should zerker be less rewarding to play? Because you feel you’re not being rewarded as much for your set?

Monsters should counter DPS, because right now they are being obliterated by a bunch of players stacking on top of them, and overwhelming them. Monsters should respond to player strategies. This has nothing to do with the other gear sets. Monsters should simply defend themselves against being cheesed.

Harper.4173:

People have put in time and effort to learn how to improve themselves and zerk content well – why would you want to punish skilled players and reward unskilled gameplay?

I’m not saying those players should be punished, but I don’t think players with other gear sets are “unskilled”. And I don’t think the game should favor DPS so much as it does now.

Harper.4173:

The 1-hit-KOs aren’t really that bad in tanky gear – I’ve found that where I usually get 1 hit in Zerks I can take 2 hits in Knight’s.

That is bad. That is basically a difference of almost nothing. This is why people might as well not bother with armor.

Harper.4173:

I find our current exercise of whack-a-mole much more engaging then the – tab out and spam attacks because you can tank it all alternative.

Tab out? I have had the pleasure of joining many parties that included tanks in many MMO’s, including GW1 for many years, and any tank that didn’t pay attention, would instantly die. Tanking does not mean you can tab out. It does require skill, but a different kind of skill.

Harper.4173:

Gear didn’t turn everything into a speed run – players did

Lets get one thing clear. Player behavior is always a direct results of the game’s rules. This is a poor excuse for the game’s current gear system. The game designers are always ultimately responsible.

Harper.4173:

There’s too little content and people who play constantly for lots of hours every day will eventually turn the game into a speed clear. That’s how it is – you can’t avoid that.

Yes you can. The reason people usually speedrun, is because the reward is only at the end. And they want to reap that reward over and over again. The dungeon experience itself is not the goal, it is the reward after the final boss that is. So change that.

Harper.4173:

It a way you’re saying – “you know all that time and effort you put in? We’re going to take a good 70% of that and give it away for free to less skilled players so they can be happy too”.

You seem very much set on this idea of skilled versus lesser skilled. Maybe it would help if you instead chose to see it as, one way to play the game, and another way to play the game.

The response to the change to Pies speaks volumes.

Harper.4173:

The content already is accessible to other gear types – what you are complaining about is that you can’t speed clear in every gear type. Which is something entirely different.

No. I’m complaining that the game unfairly favors DPS over other strategies. Defense should matter more. Right now the balance is skewed.

Harper.4173:

You want full tanks to be able to clear as fast as full glass cannons? Or nearly as fast? WHY?

See above.

Harper.4173:

Every time hard content has been introduced in GW2 the majority has flooded the forums with “pls nerf x thing” posts.

Such posts flood the forum, regardless of what change to the game is made.

Harper.4173:

Building as a tank and passively eating the damage instead of actively mitigating it is something I consider to be less skilled.

That is because you assume that eating damage doesn’t require active play.

Harper.4173:

It takes reflex and knowledge of animations to properly time a dodge.
It takes one double click in a completely safe environment to equip a tanky piece of armor.
See the difference?

I see the misconception.

Harper.4173:

Different playing styles exist – I agree – but why reward them all the same?

Because that was the premise on which the game was sold?

Harper.4173:

If he wants to tank – he can go ahead – but this game by design is not the game he’ll have fun in – this game doesn’t have “tanks” – so why is he trying to tank in a game where the concept of tanking was taken right out?

Has it? I don’t remember the game being sold as a game “with no tanks”. Instead, quite the opposite. They sold the game on the premise that “if you wanted to play a tank, you could”. There was this core concept that any class could fulfill any role.

Harper.4173:

The problem starts when you start demanding rewards equal to those obtained by people who work more because of the gear they wear.

The problem starts when you start calling it work, when it should in fact be a game.

This topic should first explain what the actual difference between full light and heavy armor is.

Did you guys know there is a topic about Eviscerate on this forum where people actually think that if you spec full zerk on a Warrior you will have more armor then a full dire Engineer?

There should be a mandatory topic on this forum that explains things like this.

I would not like to go in that discussion not for all the gems in… well all the gems.

I was only discussing the fact that there is a difference and that while it is not large is still exist and that factors into balance otherwise the defense stats from base armor would have already been normalize like so many other mechanics in the game.

Monsters defending themselves against cheese sure sounds good on paper but have you looked at the core issue?
People cheese them for a reason – because most fights in this game aren’t challenging – just long and dragged out.

People wouldn’t glitch/cheese fights as much if the fights themselves were shorter and more intense perhaps.
The way fights work now people will go one of two routes to avoid all the hassle:

Either burn it down incredibly fast or range it from a safe spot and tab out.

You say that 2 hits in Knight’s is bad – well how many hits should your armor take before you’re forced to react?
I understand you think it’s too little but obviously the developers wanted us to be more reactive and not fall asleep during a fight, wake up 5 minutes later and still be a-ok because we have high armor.

Zerk 1 hit, Knight’s 2, PVT 3 – seems fair to me. Any more and you’ll simply end up having a tank.

The boss has to have a way to be dangerous to you no matter how much armor you’ve got.

I agree – Tanking requires skill – but it’s something that this game was not designed to have. It makes me very confused why people keep asking for the same things even though this is clearly not the MMO for them.
In GW2 – more tanky gear and you might as well tab out during certain fights – I can do it now if I wear Knight’s – I can only imagine how much harder it’d be if tankier gear was more effective.

Let’s get another thing clear – player’s behavior is always the same and will push as much as the game rules allow it too.
You’ll always see speed clear in all games – be it 20 minutes or 2 hours long.
You’ll always see optimal DPS being brought – whether that means bringing 5 zerkers in GW2 or the minimum amount of healer and tank with everyone else DPS in a trinity game.

The fact that GW2 is more speed run oriented than you’d like is a different matter.
But ultimately if players didn’t want their rewards fast they wouldn’t have pushed in this direction regardless of how gear worked.

Everyone would have “playhowyouwant” and killed everything in the dungeon with different builds that they liked and in whatever gear they happened to have.

The GW2 system permits speed clearing but it’s the people that want it.

You can’t change the fact that “the dungeon experience” is something people don’t want anymore.

It’s been 2 years – we know the dungeons by heart. If I close my eyes I can still hear CoF P1’s cheesy lines over and over again.

It’s about the reward – not the dungeon experience once you’ve had the dungeon experience enough times to last you a lifetime.

Changing the rewards to be equally spread out in a dungeon won’t work – people will just find the one that you can cheese.

Go in – get first reward – go out – and it will probably be faster than going all the way.
This happened at the very start of dungeons with tokens – it was changed afterwards precisely because people did this.

Defense does matter – but it’s the active part of it.
Active defense matters – passive defense matters less – but I don’t see that as a problem in a game that clearly by design want you to not get hit or at least try to prevent getting hit rather than eating that damage.

You feel the balance is skewed because defense in your opinion is only related to passive defense.
A well timed block, aegis, blind don’t constitute elements of what you see as “defense” – which is incorrect since you’re only looking at just one part of the picture.

Why do you think they gave us so many tools to actively mitigate damage if they wanted us to take the damage directly?

In a game with no healer and no tank – it’s up to each individual to best manage his incoming damage – and the tools we’ve been given show it very clearly.

Regarding the forum posts – I don’t remember there being so many complaints when content was made easier.

Also I look forward to seeing how eating damage requires active play. By actively going in front of the boss’ attack? By actively not dodging when his animation is up?
How is allowing yourself to be hit just as active and demanding as it is to avoid that hit?

If you’re going to give me the " premise on which the game was sold " I will kindly point out that there have been a lot of things promised with GW2 – some on which the devs have even gone 180 degrees on.
I doubt that the “premise” matters much today – but the game was always advertised as “play how you want” not “play how you want and be equally successful as the people who take the game just as seriously as their job”.

Also – if you see a misconception – please explain it to me.
I’d like to be made to understand how actively managing incoming damage, dodging and blocking here and there are just as skilled as simply equipping tougher armor and standing still hitting the boss.

The game sold on the premise of "No holy trinity " – that makes it pretty clear to me that tanks in the traditional fashion wouldn’t be a thing.
I’m not sure what you expected GW2 to be but I feel you’ve been misinformed.

Also I don’t remember the game being sold on the premise of “no matter what you want to play you’ll be rewarded about as much as those who choose to play the most effective setup because reasons”.

I don’t see you being unable to play a tankier character in GW2 if you so want to.
Is something stopping you? I don’t think so.

The only thing stopping you is your own idea that even though you’re playing a tanky hero because that’s the kind of character you like to play therefore defining your main goal during play to be an experience/roleplay you want to be rewarded just as much as someone playing with the goal of making as much gold per minute as possible.

You want to have your cake and eat it.

You want to both play what you feel like – but get rewards as good as the people who play with only rewards in mind.

And it is a game – but each of us treats a game with more or less seriousness.
People have worked very hard for things in this game. Or should I say played.

The problem starts when you start demanding rewards equal to those obtained by people who play more or under more difficult conditions and strain because of the gear they wear.

Is that better?

The problem starts when you start calling it work, when it should in fact be a game.

I also like how you’re cleverly avoiding my arguments and trying to shift focus to something else instead of responding.

It really doesn’t matter what you call it – the statement still stands true. Some people put in more effort/work/time/whatever and are rewarded for it.

You want other who put in less effort/work/time/whatever get more rewards than they’re currently getting. Because reasons.

About effectiveness of tanking:

Glass cannon elementalist: 1883 armor

Tanky elementalist:

3679 armor from traits, food, runes and gear and + 250 from sigil + 170 from banner + 120 from earth attunement + 180 from signet + 180 from earth shield + 150 guardian trait = 4729

This alone gives 60 % damage reduction (40 % damage taken). Then apply protection (33 % reduction) and weakness (25 % reduction) to get 20 % damage taken.

No idea if frost armor stacks but would give additional 10% reduction resulting in 18 % damage taken.

Chill is a wild card but it can reduce damage up to 40 % (when most damage comes from skills with a cooldown) resulting in 11 % damage taken.

So compared to glass cannon you can have 89% damage reduction. Then pop WvW defense and potion to get 91% damage reduction.

Harper.4173:

You feel the balance is skewed because defense in your opinion is only related to passive defense.
A well timed block, aegis, blind don’t constitute elements of what you see as “defense” – which is incorrect since you’re only looking at just one part of the picture.

Why doesn’t the effectiveness of those skills relate to the armor that you are wearing? The sheer number of active defenses in the game make passive defenses a bit pointless. And there’s nothing wrong with having active defenses, it fits the action oriented game play of GW2. But why even have armor, if you can avoid damage just as effectively without it? Don’t you see a problem with the way the majority of the players seem to have migrated towards full DPS? Isn’t that something that should make alarm bells start ringing?

Harper.4173:

Why do you think they gave us so many tools to actively mitigate damage if they wanted us to take the damage directly?

Quite frankly the game design is all over the place, so I have no answer for you there.

Harper.4173:

Also I look forward to seeing how eating damage requires active play. By actively going in front of the boss’ attack? By actively not dodging when his animation is up?
How is allowing yourself to be hit just as active and demanding as it is to avoid that hit?

It’s a matter of implementation. In GW1 playing a tank still required active play. If the designers want the other gear to have a purpose, maybe they should not only look to make that gear more effective, but also look on how to make playing with that gear more involved. I don’t believe that allowing for a defensive play style equals what you describe by default.

Harper.4173:

Also – if you see a misconception – please explain it to me. I’d like to be made to understand how actively managing incoming damage, dodging and blocking here and there are just as skilled as simply equipping tougher armor and standing still hitting the boss.

That last phrase is the misconception. You seem to be under the presumption that the only alternative to actively dodging, is sitting on your butt and taking a brutal beating in the face, while making some coffee.

Harper.4173:

The game sold on the premise of "No holy trinity " – that makes it pretty clear to me that tanks in the traditional fashion wouldn’t be a thing.

That’s not what they meant with no trinity. What they meant is that there would no longer be “LFG MONK” spamming for everything. But they didn’t say they would completely eliminate the concept of tanking, or healing.

Harper.4173:

Also I don’t remember the game being sold on the premise of “no matter what you want to play you’ll be rewarded about as much as those who choose to play the most effective setup because reasons”.

That is not what this is about. It’s not about the rewards, it’s about balance. Each gear set should have a place and purpose, and not be blown out of the water by another.

Harper.4173:

I don’t see you being unable to play a tankier character in GW2 if you so want to. Is something stopping you? I don’t think so.

See above.

Harper.4173:

The only thing stopping you is your own idea that even though you’re playing a tanky hero because that’s the kind of character you like to play therefore defining your main goal during play to be an experience/roleplay you want to be rewarded just as much as someone playing with the goal of making as much gold per minute as possible.

How do you know what my idea is? Or why do you assume this is about rewards? It’s not. It’s about balance.

Harper.4173:

You want to both play what you feel like – but get rewards as good as the people who play with only rewards in mind.

Not about rewards.

Harper.4173:

The problem starts when you start demanding rewards equal to those obtained by people who play more or under more difficult conditions and strain because of the gear they wear.

Rewards, not, about.

Harper.4173:

I also like how you’re cleverly avoiding my arguments and trying to shift focus to something else instead of responding.

When someone posts a huge reply to your post, big enough to hit the character limit, and they have to split it into two posts…. then I think this is a pretty unfair thing to say.