Guild Wars 2

We all know that vitality is more useful than toughness in pvp and wvw because there is no way to reduce incoming condition damage, but if toughness were to provide some proteccion against conditions that would encourage players to try new stat combinations instead of the often used condition, power vitality build.

Vitality combats condition damage.

lol toughness is already a dmg reduce factor
condition dmg should be decreased by investing into vitality

Against condition damages : Cleanse
Against direct damages : Toughness

Vitality is the stat that combats condition damage.

alanis.6094:

Vitality combats condition damage.

i think the whole point to condi damage is that it ignores armor.

Stand The Wall.6987:

alanis.6094:

Vitality combats condition damage.

i think the whole point to condi damage is that it ignores armor.

as it was intended.

style.6173:

I don’t think many of you know what you are talking about. Vitality does not combat condition damage. It simply allows you to stay alive a bit longer. More vitality does not reduce the impact of the conditions though.

Nobody is making that argument.

Vitality is very inefficient to fight heavy condi stacks and cleanse cripples your build. I agree that the current status is suboptimal. We need more universal ways to cleanse conditions that don’t require you to spend 1-2 out of your 3 utility slots. Suggestions:

• light fields cleansing condis with blast/leap finisher instead of the useless retaliation
• buffs for condi cleanse sigil
• buffs for anti condi runes
• more adept traits that remove condis

style.6173:

I don’t think many of you know what you are talking about. Vitality does not combat condition damage. It simply allows you to stay alive a bit longer. More vitality does not reduce the impact of the conditions though.

All the posts are vitality combats conditions keyword is combat.

or better balance few condi “meta” builds and leave everything else(condi dmg/cleans) as it is now.

I have apothecary Necro and i dont see anything op in 1200 condi dmg and 3-7 condis on my target and my survivability is not so great.

The problem with conditions is not that conditions are inherently OP, or that they ignore armor, or that cleansing is too hard. It’s that compared with direct damage, conditions are very often difficult to avoid, and easy to apply.
For an example, look at high direct damage attacks. Hundred blades, Meteor Shower, Barrage, even Backstab to an extent are all easily avoided if you know what you are doing, and while they do high damage, they all require a certain amount of setup and risk to use, and generally are somewhat difficult to land.
On the other hand, condition damage has nowhere near the same difficulty of application. Lots of conditions are from passive procs on autoattacks and AoE’s with low telegraphing and comparitively short delay from the start of casting to when it hits, like necro marks (which can even be made unblockable) or various bow skills on a few classes.
My solution would be to make condition applying skills telegraphed and avoidable to the same degree that equivalent direct damage skills are, and to have autoattacks apply at maximum one condition (there still need to be autos that apply conditions, but having a single auto apply multiple conditions is somewhat silly).

Kulvar.1239:

Against condition damages : Cleanse
Against direct damages : Toughness

Against condition damages: cleanse, -duration (immunity).
Against direct damages: toughness, protection, weakness, damage reducing traits.

Inbalance is easy to read from above: anyone can spec toughness to have protection against direct damage while how well you can spec against condition damage greatly depends on your trait and utility choices, and ultimately, on your class. Some builds can be completely immune to conditions while some can do almost nothing against them, which is quite silly. This isn’t the case with direct damage.

It would make more sense for toughness to reduce condition duration than condition damage.

No. Conditions were explicitly designed to be the counter to toughness (and, by extension, bunkers).

Look for a way to nerf conditions that does not consequently buff bunker builds.

Maliel.8362:

We all know that vitality is more useful than toughness in pvp and wvw because there is no way to reduce incoming condition damage, but if toughness were to provide some proteccion against conditions that would encourage players to try new stat combinations instead of the often used condition, power vitality build.

Carrion amulet is nearly never used in PvP builds.

Condition removal is the same thing against conditions as toughness is vs. power. You will never be completely invincible to power attacks even with high toughness; you will also never be completely invincible to condition attacks even with good condition removal.

How about instead of changin toughness, we just fix condition removal so that its not so quirky

I think the fact that one cleanse can clear 25 stacks of bleed is unfair.
You think that condi is op.
Possible solution:
Reduce the cooldown on all cleansing skills, but they now reduce duration and stacks for each respective condi.

I think the fact that a half second of cripple can count as a whole condition cleanse instead of that 25 stack of bleed is even more unfair

Burn: Damage reduced to 2x bleed damage and removes 1 boon a second.
Poison: Damage stays to 2x bleed damage and reduces healing like now.
Torment: Damage increased to 1x bleed damage, double if moving.
Vitality: For every 100 vitality, reduce condi duration by 1%.
Retaliation: Changed to reflect 10% damage up to a cap of the current amount reflected.
Confusion: Deals damage once based on the amount of confusion on you at the time of your swing. Consumes the stack on damage.

Cap condi duration and condi reduction at 40%. No more food+trait+utility+sigil+rune stacking etc.

Did I nerf it enough?

Silhouette.5631:

I think the fact that a half second of cripple can count as a whole condition cleanse instead of that 25 stack of bleed is even more unfair

Not even close. Cleansing 25 stacks, which would be someones entire kitten nal of condi application vs. one condi cleanse skill? Riiight.
Who cant wait a half second to use their cleanse?

Atherakhia.4086:

Burn: Damage reduced to 2x bleed damage and removes 1 boon a second.
Poison: Damage stays to 2x bleed damage and reduces healing like now.
Torment: Damage increased to 1x bleed damage, double if moving.
Vitality: For every 100 vitality, reduce condi duration by 1%.
Retaliation: Changed to reflect 10% damage up to a cap of the current amount reflected.
Confusion: Deals damage once based on the amount of confusion on you at the time of your swing. Consumes the stack on damage.

Cap condi duration and condi reduction at 40%. No more food+trait+utility+sigil+rune stacking etc.

Did I nerf it enough?

You have some decent ideas. If you cap condition duration though then you also need to cap crit at a level where the damage increase is the same. The damage increase for conditions is linear where power*Crit*crit dmg isn’t. Then we need to remove ALL % damage increases via traits/runes/sigils/food/etc. Honestly the worst thing about this game is how badly they messed up stats. Why in the world would you have one form of damage scale differently than another and the same goes for defensive stats too. When damage scales exponentially you also need defense to do the same or it becomes a game of one shots.

P Fun Daddy.1208:

On the other hand, condition damage has nowhere near the same difficulty of application.

The easy to apply conditions add very little threat. The threat comes from combining many small stacks, a dedicated effort to apply conditions. Which itself makes application harder and cleansing more effective (as one cleanse will eliminate 25 stacks as easily as 1).

My solution would be to …

It seems your solution would be to eliminate any threat from conditions.

Atherakhia.4086:

….Vitality: For every 100 vitality, reduce condi duration by 1%.
…..
Did I nerf it enough?

nerfing condi dmg should not be the right way, cause of condi meta, anet also said they want to improve control – and condi build

Toughness is the direct Opponent to direct dmg, but there is NO Opponent factor to reduce condition dmg. so suggets Vitality should decreasing % of dmg of conditions.
The ability to cleare conditions is in affect to your class in balancing compared to all other classes, same here for direct dmg, all classes having immunity …. excepting the thief.

Vitality to combat condition damage?

Think about what you’re saying. Each stat has a single purpose. You’re proposing giving vitality a second purpose. You’re proposing giving warriors and necromancers a 18% BASE condition duration reduction; mesmer, ranger and engineer a 15% BASE condition duration reduction; elementalist, thief and guardian a 10% BASE condition duration reduction.

That’s a very significant buff, unbalances vitality compared to other stats, and such a change would be significantly unbalanced granting yet another significant advantage to classes in the upper HP tier, and therefore a significant disadvantage to those in the lower tier. Different base health and armour classes already present a significant base effective HP between classes, especially when healing power comes into play, further increasing the effectiveness of the increased armour and health.

Condition damage already has counters. It’s based on damage*duration, and the duration can be reduced. Conditions can be removed entirely, negating a chunk of the applier’s damage. Removing a condition doesn’t remove the single condition applied, it removes the whole stack or duration that the applier worked to put on you - a very significant defense against someone who damages via intensity conditions. Invulnerability blocks condition application just as it blocks direct damage. There is condition immunity, condition transfers, condition conversion. You can out heal less intense conditions, so healing power is also a defense. Vitality is a condition burst defense much like it is also a direct damage burst defense. Time is a counter because it’s not instant. You have a more time to react, to decide how you’re going to handle the conditions.

Conditions actually have more counters than direct damage. Conditions can continue to damage while you’re not attacking due to being disabled, kiting or trying to escape. Direct damage doesn’t. They can damage, reduce the effectiveness of your healing, mobility, attacks, and increase direct damage you take. Direct damage can’t. To balance this there are so many counters for conditions, and cleanses which can simply shrug off a lot of damage waiting to happen which makes the time taken to apply them mostly wasted. You have more time to react to it, since it’s not instant.

It may often be difficult to combat it, frustrating to see all those red icons on you, to be moving at snail pace, need to heal but reluctant to do so because of that poison etc. But if you step back and look at it objectively, it is balanced. Just not every build can combat everything else. You can build to take direct damage like it’s nothing, or build to laugh at conditions. You can build to deal heavy damage, or to just survive and let your opponent waste their time trying to kill you. Or, you can look at every element of combat, and build to have a good balance: to be able to handle direct damage and burst heal, to be able to remove conditions or heal through most condition damage until you can remove them, and to survive while having some offensive capability in order to wear your opponent down.
The same applies to damage builds. You can go full conditions and risk encountering opponents with extremely strong condition counters, rendering you useless. You can go high direct damage and risk an opponent chaining stuns, knockbacks and invulnerability then healing up. Or, you can try to have a balance of the two so if your conditions are being removed, you can still damage your opponent, and if they go invulnerable or disable you, they’ll still be taking damage from your applied conditions.

Arkantos.7460:

Atherakhia.4086:

….Vitality: For every 100 vitality, reduce condi duration by 1%.
…..
Did I nerf it enough?

nerfing condi dmg should not be the right way, cause of condi meta, anet also said they want to improve control – and condi build

*_Toughness is the direct Opponent to direct dmg, but there is NO Opponent factor to reduce condition dmg.

Every profession has a multitude of conditional removal abilities.

style.6173:

I don’t think many of you know what you are talking about. Vitality does not combat condition damage. It simply allows you to stay alive a bit longer. More vitality does not reduce the impact of the conditions though.

LOL! that is exactly the point.
Think about what you said. That’s like saying toughness doesn’t reduce direct damage, it just allows you to soak more of it.

Also if you were going to do the Condi duration to vitality you wouldn’t need condi cleanse.

The only thing I will say is they should change the way it stacks. No class should be able to get 25 stacks of bleed alone. that’s more the issue, speed of application.

Also side note there shouldn’t be the ability to instantly counter a condi cleanse.
Example: Elixir C to boons, shouldn’t be able to be converted back to Condis until it has worn off. should be converts all conditions to boons for 3 (instead of 5 seconds) and you become immune to conditions for 3 seconds. the toss could be 1 second condi immunity for everyone. Would make it so condis have the equivalent of an interrupt.

P Fun Daddy.1208:

The problem with conditions is not that conditions are inherently OP, or that they ignore armor, or that cleansing is too hard. It’s that compared with direct damage, conditions are very often difficult to avoid, and easy to apply.
For an example, look at high direct damage attacks. Hundred blades, Meteor Shower, Barrage, even Backstab to an extent are all easily avoided if you know what you are doing, and while they do high damage, they all require a certain amount of setup and risk to use, and generally are somewhat difficult to land.
On the other hand, condition damage has nowhere near the same difficulty of application. Lots of conditions are from passive procs on autoattacks and AoE’s with low telegraphing and comparitively short delay from the start of casting to when it hits, like necro marks (which can even be made unblockable) or various bow skills on a few classes.
My solution would be to make condition applying skills telegraphed and avoidable to the same degree that equivalent direct damage skills are, and to have autoattacks apply at maximum one condition (there still need to be autos that apply conditions, but having a single auto apply multiple conditions is somewhat silly).

I laughed hard when I saw Barrage as a high damage skill! I hit 3 times harder and faster with my auto attack on my longbow than if EVERY tick hits on my barrage. Full zerker gear and barrage is still weak on a massive cooldown! Yes I zerg bust with longbow but I dare not press 5 and lose the little bit of mobility I have.

I always thought high Vitality combined with life stealing was the counter to conditions. If you can stack enough regeneration and critical hits to trigger life stealing you barely need condition removal, assuming you have a target to hit.

Higher toughness is meant to combat spike.
Higher vitality is meant to combat pressure.

See? Is balanced. The sentences are even the same length!

How about adding another stat: Resistance (reduces condition damage by X percent).

Bunda.2691:

How about adding another stat: Resistance (reduces condition damage by X percent).

and removing condi cleans skills

Toughness reduces clearly direct Damage, it should not also reduce Condition Damage, otherwise would be Toughness too powerful.

Condition Damage should be reduced minimally by Vitality.
Say for example, every 20 Vitality points, Condition Damage should get reduced by 0,275%

Means if you have 1500 Vitality for example, your Condition Damage that you receive, will be reduced by 20,625 %

With more Vitality than 1500, the range of Condition Damage Reductino that way should range between 20 to maximum 25% or so, what would be the case at a Vitality of 1820 around.

That way would become Support/Control more balanced to pure Damage builds and receive more importance.

Orpheal.8263:

Toughness reduces clearly direct Damage, it should not also reduce Condition Damage, otherwise would be Toughness too powerful.

Condition Damage should be reduced minimally by Vitality.
Say for example, every 20 Vitality points, Condition Damage should get reduced by 0,275%

Means if you have 1500 Vitality for example, your Condition Damage that you receive, will be reduced by 20,625 %

With more Vitality than 1500, the range of Condition Damage Reductino that way should range between 20 to maximum 25% or so, what would be the case at a Vitality of 1820 around.

That way would become Support/Control more balanced to pure Damage builds and receive more importance.

I like this idea, it could also just reduce the duration based upon the amount of vitality you have in much the same way. Either way it would make having a high vitality worth something more than just more health.